SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

jojojo

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I don’t think that’s true. This is recent - and unexpected - data so couldn’t possibly have influenced the JCVI decision.

Haven’t they started vaccinating U16s anyway? Is too early for that to be a factor in what we’re seeing here?
The JCVI gave its ruling on clinically vulnerable 12+ back in mid-July - so most of them were vaccinated in early August. That ruling was based on hospitalisations in previous waves.

When they did their assessment on the rest of the 12-16s they said they were only looking at covid hospitalisations in the "no pre-existing conditions" group v vaccine myocarditis risk. They excluded the vulnerable from the hospitalisation from covid stat as they'd already been advised to get the vaccine and most of them had had it.

They have started vaccinating U16s more generally now, but only since mid-September and not that many have had it - certainly not enough to explain the flat line. If it's not mostly about successful targeting of the most vulnerable groups, it really is a mystery.
 

lsd

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Wasn't feeling well today had a sore throat but couldn't think of anyway it could be COVID as I try to be super careful being diabetic as well.

Then I got pinged for the first time ever so booking for a test now.

Hopefully I don't have it but it does seem to be kicking off again as so many people seem to be treating it as a joke
 

Pogue Mahone

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The JCVI gave its ruling on clinically vulnerable 12+ back in mid-July - so most of them were vaccinated in early August. That ruling was based on hospitalisations in previous waves.

When they did their assessment on the rest of the 12-16s they said they were only looking at covid hospitalisations in the "no pre-existing conditions" group v vaccine myocarditis risk. They excluded the vulnerable from the hospitalisation from covid stat as they'd already been advised to get the vaccine and most of them had had it.

They have started vaccinating U16s more generally now, but only since mid-September and not that many have had it - certainly not enough to explain the flat line. If it's not mostly about successful targeting of the most vulnerable groups, it really is a mystery.
Ah. Ok. I see what you mean. It certainly makes these data less unexpected. If all clinically vulnerable (and proportion of the rest) vaccinated then it stands to reason that overall hospitalisation rates will be considerably lower than in July. They would be lower still if better vaccine coverage by now.
 

jojojo

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Ah. Ok. I see what you mean. It certainly makes these data less unexpected. If all clinically vulnerable (and proportion of the rest) vaccinated then it stands to reason that overall hospitalisation rates will be considerably lower than in July. They would be lower still if better vaccine coverage by now.
Possible re-infection (following an infection last year or over the winter) may be contributing as well, particularly in historic high case rate areas. I'm assuming there that past infection offers some protection from more serious illness in this age group.

There's also another potential contribution:

On average that "least deprived" group also have better health outcomes generally, and fewer comorbidities etc so maybe less likely to get covid complications.

Edited to say: I definitely did not post the wrong tweet in this thread. Pogue just imagined that :wenger:
 
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Jericholyte2

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Cases up 17% in a week, deaths up 21.1%, hospitalisations up 11%.

We all remember when that POS Johnson stood in the HOUSE OF COMMONS and lied, saying they'd severed the link between cases, deaths and hospitalisations, right?
 

Pogue Mahone

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Possible re-infection (following an infection last year or over the winter) may be contributing as well, particularly in historic high case rate areas. I'm assuming there that past infection offers some protection from more serious illness in this age group.

There's also another potential contribution:

On average that "least deprived" group also have better health outcomes generally, and fewer comorbidities etc so maybe less likely to get covid complications.
Just quoting this so we can keep football penalty videos in a discussion about covid.
 

jojojo

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Wasn't feeling well today had a sore throat but couldn't think of anyway it could be COVID as I try to be super careful being diabetic as well.

Then I got pinged for the first time ever so booking for a test now.

Hopefully I don't have it but it does seem to be kicking off again as so many people seem to be treating it as a joke
Just quoting this so we can keep football penalty videos in a discussion about covid.
:lol:

Oops.

Maybe try this one instead:
 

Bosws87

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Cases up 17% in a week, deaths up 21.1%, hospitalisations up 11%.

We all remember when that POS Johnson stood in the HOUSE OF COMMONS and lied, saying they'd severed the link between cases, deaths and hospitalisations, right?
Judging from the graphs and all the data its is severely weakened there's a huge amount you can pull the fool up on but that's one of the few things which is factually right.

We will never achieve a completely severed link some people are just going to succumb to this virus no matter what we do, at what number or amount of deaths do we accept as a society is the question that no one wants to answer (neither do i)
 

Pogue Mahone

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It's been the other way round for most of the pandemic so it's almost certainly about lower levels of past infection in the least deprived areas.
Gotcha. I guess this is what endemic covid looks like. For children anyway. Hospitalisation rates low to begin with, even lower after prior infection. For them it’s not even “bad flu”. It’s more benign than that. Just a pity that there’s a heavy collateral damage amongst adults while the kids reach an equilibrium with the virus.
 

jojojo

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Gotcha. I guess this is what endemic covid looks like. For children anyway. Hospitalisation rates low to begin with, even lower after prior infection. For them it’s not even “bad flu”. It’s more benign than that. Just a pity that there’s a heavy collateral damage amongst adults while the kids reach an equilibrium with the virus.
There's an interesting primer on calculating what endemic might mean here - worth noting though that he's talking about "infections" not positive tests (not every infection will get caught by testing, with the proportion actually identified depending on the country and the type of people affected). His "20k" for UK might look like 10 to 15k on test with current policies here, but might look even smaller if we really do see hospitalisations/deaths fall and we start to test as a diagnostic only (like flu).

 

Buster15

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Cases up 17% in a week, deaths up 21.1%, hospitalisations up 11%.

We all remember when that POS Johnson stood in the HOUSE OF COMMONS and lied, saying they'd severed the link between cases, deaths and hospitalisations, right?
That was rubbish then and still rubbish now.
The pandemic was brought under reasonable control in the middle of the summer, but is again completely out of control.
I can see no logic at all in not making the wearing of a face covering inside public spaces mandatory.
Ask yourself a simple question. Would you go into a Doctor Surgery or Hospital not wearing a face covering?
If no, why not inside all enclosed public places?
 

golden_blunder

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Wasn't feeling well today had a sore throat but couldn't think of anyway it could be COVID as I try to be super careful being diabetic as well.

Then I got pinged for the first time ever so booking for a test now.

Hopefully I don't have it but it does seem to be kicking off again as so many people seem to be treating it as a joke
Good luck
 

Wibble

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That was rubbish then and still rubbish now.
The pandemic was brought under reasonable control in the middle of the summer, but is again completely out of control.
I can see no logic at all in not making the wearing of a face covering inside public spaces mandatory.
Ask yourself a simple question. Would you go into a Doctor Surgery or Hospital not wearing a face covering?
If no, why not inside all enclosed public places?
Boris not telling the truth? Who would have guessed? ;)
 

Vidyoyo

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My dad got it at the weekend. Double-jabbed and said he felt horrendous on Sunday but much better today. I was a bit miffed to only find out this afternoon, mostly out of concern.

Edit - The virus, not the vaccine
 
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Pogue Mahone

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There's an interesting primer on calculating what endemic might mean here - worth noting though that he's talking about "infections" not positive tests (not every infection will get caught by testing, with the proportion actually identified depending on the country and the type of people affected). His "20k" for UK might look like 10 to 15k on test with current policies here, but might look even smaller if we really do see hospitalisations/deaths fall and we start to test as a diagnostic only (like flu).

Very cool. Although obviously full of guesstimates. Once every 9 years and sick for 2.5 days. I’ll take that. I’d love to know what the equivalent stats are for flu.
 

Wibble

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Well for one because my mum text me saying he had Covid and so I then spent a few hours worrying about it until he text back to say he felt bad at the weekend and was better today.

She made it sound like he was in a bad way...
Ahhh, gotcha. It read like you were miffed that he got vaccinated and didn't tell you.
 

Buster15

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Boris not telling the truth? Who would have guessed? ;)
The clue is when he opens his mouth to speak. And after a few seconds, his mouth becomes disconnected from his brain. And from reality.
But people seem to love that. So why change a winning formula.

Edit.
He is after all just an actor on a stage. Playing a part.
That is the state of politics today.
 

Don't Kill Bill

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Very cool. Although obviously full of guesstimates. Once every 9 years and sick for 2.5 days. I’ll take that. I’d love to know what the equivalent stats are for flu.
So if that is based on 20000 infections per day and eventually 7000 deaths per year then from further down the link,


"The CDC produces half-decent estimates for the US. Dividing them by 5 for the UK offers a rough estimate for the UK yearly flu death toll of ~2,400-12,200 depending on year."

So we lose more people to flu in a bad year and less in a good year once this becomes endemic and normalized.
 

Pogue Mahone

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So if that is based on 20000 infections per day and eventually 7000 deaths per year then from further down the link,


"The CDC produces half-decent estimates for the US. Dividing them by 5 for the UK offers a rough estimate for the UK yearly flu death toll of ~2,400-12,200 depending on year."

So we lose more people to flu in a bad year and less in a good year once this becomes endemic and normalized.
Yeah, that’s the deaths data. I was mainly curious if the “once every nine years” thing applied to flu. I’m fairly sure I’ve only had flu about once in the last 20 years.
 

Don't Kill Bill

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I get what you mean now.

Its probably very similar but you can't directly read across from deaths, my mistake.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Stuff like this is very encouraging. The booster dose isn’t just about trying to boost waning immunity back up to where it was before. It seems to increase to a level way above anything previously achieved.

This always comes with the usual caveats about antibody levels being only a crude proxy for actual immunity but I’m seeing more and more data that antibody levels are actually very closely correlated with vaccine efficacy.
 

jojojo

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Stuff like this is very encouraging. The booster dose isn’t just about trying to boost waning immunity back up to where it was before. It seems to increase to a level way above anything previously achieved.

This always comes with the usual caveats about antibody levels being only a crude proxy for actual immunity but I’m seeing more and more data that antibody levels are actually very closely correlated with vaccine efficacy.
It raises the question again of whether this is really a third dose or a booster.

As for what antibody levels mean, the studies so far certainly suggest circulating antibodies have a big role to play in stopping exposure turning into PCR detectable infection. Which if true, would be a huge deal over the next few months.

Whether, outside pandemic conditions, that's relevant for the bulk of the population I guess is the great unknown. As long as the rest of the immune system is primed to make antibodies and is going to do the job against serious illness, maybe the vaccines will have done enough. It's going to take some pretty serious trialling/monitoring over the next year or so. Hopefully it'll trigger further growth in vaccine manufacturing, not just give the rich countries an excuse to build bigger stockpiles.
 

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Covid: Get your booster jab, says Boris Johnson, as cases rise

That should do it.
 

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52k cases today, another world beating threshold passed!

RULE BRITANNIA!!!
52k cases today but a ridiculously low 115 ish deaths. Isn't that really encouraging? What am I missing? Are the hospitalisation figures becoming unmanageable?
 

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Absolutely infuriating. A girl at work came in Monday with a chest infection, her line manager sent her home. She's asked to come in today again "Do you still have a chest infection" "Yes" "No then"
There are people I work with (remotely, thank feck) who are working through Covid. Them and their whole families are full of it, but rather than take a few days off, they are 'soldiering on' coughing their way through the kinds of meetings that nobody in the world would deem in any way essential. Everyone is telling them they don't need to be there. What's wrong with people!?
 

Jericholyte2

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52k cases today but a ridiculously low 115 ish deaths. Isn't that really encouraging? What am I missing? Are the hospitalisation figures becoming unmanageable?
Hospitalisations are regularly at close to 1k per day with reports that, in general, NHS hospitals are at 98.5% capacity, and the ‘tough winter’ hasn’t even started yet. So I’d imagine that’s something to be concerned about.
 

jojojo

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52k cases today but a ridiculously low 115 ish deaths. Isn't that really encouraging? What am I missing? Are the hospitalisation figures becoming unmanageable?
The hospitalisation numbers are manageable but have basically removed all the opportunities to catch up on elective surgery etc. Staff redeployment has basically closed all the non-urgent care stuff from physio to mental health.

They're also putting a lot of stress on intensive care staff, and some of the internal medicine specialties. Asking people not to take holidays, or to do extra overtime, for a few months is one thing - to keep asking for it 18 months later and with seemingly no end in sight is a different kind of problem. The emotional and physical strain is showing. A&E departments and the ambulance service are having to deal with more work than they should and covid wards are heavy on staff and space. Hospitals are struggling to discharge patients because things like care plans can't be created and residential and community care don't want potentially infectious people being transferred to them, even if they don't need further hospital care.

That said, the statistical models said this was coming. In fact the main ones suggested that hospitalisations could be twice as high by now. Those models generally showed higher but narrower peaks than we're experiencing. The total numbers, deaths/hospitalisations, are as predicted but they're happening as a near flat line. We have indeed flattened the curve but at a level that's been continuously hard on staff for months.

You're right in general terms though. The case rates are as expected, the death rates are not racing away, hospitalisations are high but less than a quarter of the previous peak. Sustainable? No, according to the front line staff handling it or the people who are being kept waiting for medical attention. Yes, according to raw bed counts.

At any rate Javid was right about one thing. We are utterly dependant on the vaccines keeping working, the rollout continuing and the boosters doing what we hope. The booking system website updated last night to stop telling the 6 month+ group to wait until their GP calls and to allow them to book boosters directly, so maybe things will start to speed up.

TLDR - case rates are high but don't take them as the key indicator, they won't fall much until enough under 18s have been vaxxed or been infected. Deaths and hospitalisations are both in line with the most optimistic models the government is using, and may fall quite quickly if the booster program works.
 

jojojo

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Is there likely to be another lockdown in U.K?

If so, when? Hoe much worse will it have to get before they pull the trigger on it?
20k in hospital? But there's next to no chance of that happening, unless the vaccine stops working.

More likely are a push back on basic things. Masks on public transport and in shops etc. Return to WfH if you can. More push on contact tracing - though probably encouraging daily LFTs if you've been in contact rather than self isolation.

Lots of government ministers will start talking about the importance of staying home and getting tested if you've got symptoms - but probably nothing practical like better sickpay. Lots of pious lectures in general, with government ministers stalling for time and pretending to be doing something.

Meanwhile, anything that they can do to speed up boosters - perhaps with bigger incentives for local pharmacies to get involved. Provision so 12-15s can use walk-in centres. Vaccine busses in areas where the booster or the general rollout is going slow.
 

Garethw

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20k in hospital? But there's next to no chance of that happening, unless the vaccine stops working.

More likely are a push back on basic things. Masks on public transport and in shops etc. Return to WfH if you can. More push on contact tracing - though probably encouraging daily LFTs if you've been in contact rather than self isolation.

Lots of government ministers will start talking about the importance of staying home and getting tested if you've got symptoms - but probably nothing practical like better sickpay. Lots of pious lectures in general, with government ministers stalling for time and pretending to be doing something.

Meanwhile, anything that they can do to speed up boosters - perhaps with bigger incentives for local pharmacies to get involved. Provision so 12-15s can use walk-in centres. Vaccine busses in areas where the booster or the general rollout is going slow.
Reports this morning were of a potential option C. Basically the economy open (shops, pubs, clubs etc) but no indoor mixing with family etc. Absolute political suicide if they stop families seeing each other for a second Christmas running but allow a good booze up at the pub!