Scholes and Hargreaves pick their best possible current Man Utd XI

Walters_19_MuFc

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Scholes - 4411

Martial
Rashford
James McTominay Pogba Greenwood
Shaw Maguire Tuanzebe Wan-Bissaka
De Gea

Hargreaves - 343

Rashford Martial Greenwood
Shaw McTominay Pogba Wan-Bissaka
Tuanzebe Maguire Lindelof
De Gea​

Anyone agree?
 

Bastian

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That midfield could get murdered.

edit: Scholesey's I mean. Hargreaves' is sensible.
 
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Grylte

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Hargreaves' team looks much more balanced, Scholes' is gung ho.
A bit unfair to James to not have him in there, he deserves to play over Greenwood, imo.
 

Rozay

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Scholes demonstrating his cluelessness again, and probably why he’s not cut out for management. It amazes me how simple ex-players sound when they talk about the game, especially those who played to a high level.
 

luke511

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Scholes' formation is more like this

Martial
James Rashford Greenwood
McTominay Pogba
Shaw Maguire Tuanzebe Wan Bissaka​
 

el3mel

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Scholes formation is terrible with no balance.

Hargreaves one is good though, but swap Greenwood for James.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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Scholes' formation is more like this, looks more reasonable in that shape to be fair.

Martial
James Rashford Greenwood
McTominay Pogba
Shaw Maguire Tuanzebe Wan Bissaka​
Well, not really, because he quite specifically mentioned a 4411. The formation you posted above is a 4231, with two defensive midfielders and an attacking midfielder, as opposed to centre midfielders and a second striker.
 

Aidan Azar

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Scholes line up would be great on Fifa, real life not so much.
 

sherrinford

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That midfield could get murdered.

edit: Scholesey's I mean. Hargreaves' is sensible.
Hargreaves’ midfield is sensible but Scholes’ - with the extra man helping out - would get murdered?

Well, not really, because he quite specifically mentioned a 4411. The formation you posted above is a 4231, with two defensive midfielders and an attacking midfielder, as opposed to centre midfielders and a second striker.
Semantics.
 

el3mel

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Hargreaves’ midfield is sensible but Scholes’ - with the extra man helping out - would get murdered?



Semantics.
Where is that extra man in Scholes formation? He has Rashford, James, Martial and Greenwood all upfront, Scott as DMF and Pogba who barely does any defensive job anyway. We will get slaughtered with this againsy any decent opposition.

At least Hargreaves' has 3 defenders at the back to balance it out a little bit.
 

luke511

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Well, not really, because he quite specifically mentioned a 4411. The formation you posted above is a 4231, with two defensive midfielders and an attacking midfielder, as opposed to centre midfielders and a second striker.
I'm going off the TV picture animation of the formation
 

sherrinford

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Where is that extra man in Scholes formation? He has Rashford, James, Martial and Greenwood all upfront, Scott as DMF and Pogba who barely does any defensive job anyway. We will get slaughtered with this againsy any decent opposition.

At least Hargreaves' has 3 defenders at the back to balance it out a little bit.
Rashford, obviously. Hargreaves’ lineup doesn’t have an obvious player to help the two midfielders defensively. Having three centre halves doesn’t balance that out either.


I like to call it football knowledge.
Football Manager knowledge maybe...
 

el3mel

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Rashford, obviously. Hargreaves’ lineup doesn’t have an obvious player to help the two midfielders defensively. Having three centre halves doesn’t balance that out either.




Football Manager knowledge maybe...
Rashford isn't going to balance that either. Can you imagine him defending in the center of the park? He won't do that. If we want an extra man down there then at least Pereira or something in the same position, but with Rashford behind Martial it's very unbalanced.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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Rashford, obviously. Hargreaves’ lineup doesn’t have an obvious player to help the two midfielders defensively. Having three centre halves doesn’t balance that out either.

Football Manager knowledge maybe...

It can do because the centre half can push into the midfield and create a three, especially if it's someone like Maguire who is good on the ball.

Nah, don't even need that football manager knowledge to know the difference between a 4231 and 4411. It's basics!
 

hobbers

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James and Williams for Greenwood and Shaw, naturally, but otherwise Hargreaves system takes it.
 

Majima

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I like Hargreaves' line-up.

Vs weaker teams, what's been stopping us from lining up like that this season? Everyone knows our lack of a 10 is killing us in the way we currently play.

Attacking:

De Gea
AWB - Maguire - Lindelof
Pereira - McTominay - Fred - Young
James - Martial - Rashford
Defending:

De Gea
AWB - Maguire - Lindelof - Young
Pereira - McTominay - Fred
James - Martial - Rashford​

What's stopping us from lining up like that tomorrow?
 
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sherrinford

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Rashford isn't going to balance that either. Can you imagine him defending in the center of the park? He won't do that. If we want an extra man down there then at least Pereira or something in the same position, but with Rashford behind Martial it's very unbalanced.
Of course he would, as virtually every player who is employed in that kind of role does. In that role a player is typically tasked with tracking the opposition holding midfield player. Rashford has the stomach for hard work, he would have no issues.

It can do because the centre half can push into the midfield and create a three, especially if it's someone like Maguire who is good on the ball.

Nah, don't even need that football manager knowledge to know the difference between a 4231 and 4411. It's basics!
A centre half is never going to push into midfield to create a three when defending in a set shape or transitioning to defence.

At such a broad level, there is no difference at all between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-4-1-1. What is the difference between central midfielders and defensive midfielders? What is the difference between an attacking midfielder and a second striker? How do you know when there’s not even an opponent with a shape/ lineup themselves to match up against?
 

Foxbatt

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That is a bad one from Scholes. We will get murdered. Rashford as a 10 is terrible too. He is not a good passer of the ball.
 

el3mel

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Of course he would, as virtually every player who is employed in that kind of role does. In that role a player is typically tasked with tracking the opposition holding midfield player. Rashford has the stomach for hard work, he would have no issues.
This concept doesn't work in real football though. Otherwise formations and each player's position are pointless, put any player in any position and he will perform the roles of such position anyway. The reality is it won't happen, or it won't happen efficiently. By nature Rashford will be staying up front and looking forward to attack and if you force him to backtrack to center of midfield to offer support to the 2 midfielders on losing the ball he won't be able to do it efficiently (because he has never done that before and it has never been his role, being always a forward player) and at the same time will lose his contributions in the attack because he can't focus on it. Basically you will end up playing with 10 men on the field.

You want to put a player who can work as extra man in midfield you put an attacking midfielder in such position like Periera, who will know how to do such role efficiently on both sides. Otherwise with such lineup Scholes has put, it's logical that Rashford will be a second striker not an attacking midfielder, which will unbalance the team and open us up for counters. It will look against some trash teams but whenever we are put under pressure or against a good counter attacking team, we will get destroyed.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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A centre half is never going to push into midfield to create a three when defending in a set shape or transitioning to defence.

At such a broad level, there is no difference at all between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-4-1-1. What is the difference between central midfielders and defensive midfielders? What is the difference between an attacking midfielder and a second striker? How do you know when there’s not even an opponent with a shape/ lineup themselves to match up against?
Thought we were talking about in attack.

Centre midfielders job, like Scholes used to do, is to get in the box, whereas a defensive midfielder is tasked to sit in front of the back four and break up play.

A second striker is more someone who works in tandem more with the main striker and gets into the box more often, whilst leaving the centre midfielder to create, whereas an attacking midfielder is the link between midfield and attack and will try and assist the wingers and striker.

The wingers/wide midfielders have different roles. In a 4231, wingers tend to play as wide attacking midfielders, where priority will be on finding pockets of space in between the lines, whereas wingers in a 4411 will look to exploit wide areas.
 

Class of 63

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I like Hargreaves' line-up.

Vs weaker teams, what's been stopping us from lining up like that this season? Everyone knows our lack of a 10 is killing us in the way we currently play.

Attacking:

De Gea
AWB - Maguire - Lindelof
Pereira - McTominay - Fred - Young
James - Martial - Rashford
Defending:

De Gea
AWB - Maguire - Lindelof - Young
Pereira - McTominay - Fred
James - Martial - Rashford​

What's stopping us from lining up like that tomorrow?
Young being suspended for starters ;)

I know.
 

berbatrick

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Scholes' 2 strikers may suit both Martial and Rashford, but I'm not sure it suits the rest of the team, and that midfield is very weak. Maybe a 3-5-2?

--------------De Gea--------------
----Tuanzebe- Maguire - Lindelof--
AWB -----McTominay ------ Shaw
--------Pereira-----Pogba---------
--------Martial--Rashford--------

With James in for Pereira (Pogba moves further back) in easier games. I think James is better on the left, but unfortunately so is Rahford.
 

Thiagoal

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Scholes formation is terrible with no balance.

Hargreaves one is good though, but swap Greenwood for James.
Scholes formation is basically exactly the same as Oles apart from Rashford at number ten than the horrible, Pereira, Mata, Lingard trinity!
 

RedRonaldo

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Well to be fair, our no.10 options are really shite (Lingard, Pereira, Mata), so its better not to play any of them.
 

friendlytramp

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Hargreaves but with James (or Williams) as left wing back

Rashford Martial Greenwood
James McTominay Pogba Wan-Bissaka
Tuanzebe Maguire Lindelof
De Gea
 

SweetRightFoot

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Hargreaves is more sensible but they both need get over the fact that Pogba is not a PL centre mid

Should be

De Gea
AWB Maguire Lindelof
James Mctominay Fred Shaw
Pogba
Martial Rashford
 

SirAF

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Scholes’ lineup is not as bad as «Wilson in the hole», but Rashford as a #10 is a pretty bad suggestion.
 

Majima

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Young being suspended for starters ;)

I know.
How could I miss that! :wenger:

With players available:

Attacking:

De Gea
AWB - Maguire - Lindelof
Pereira - McTominay - Fred - Williams
James - Martial - Rashford
Defending:

De Gea
AWB - Maguire - Lindelof - Williams
Pereira - McTominay - Fred
James - Martial - Rashford​

Easy.

Edit: Damn you white text! Well played. :lol:
 
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Sandikan

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How anyone can put Greenwood ahead of James from this season's evidence i do not know.
 

11101

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Hargreaves has a better balance although both midfields are light.

Scholes showing again he has very little understanding of football despite being brilliant at it.
 

thesheriffjw

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Exactly.

scholes seems to be sticking the boot in at every chance he gets.

His punditry in my opinion is pretty poor
 

sherrinford

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This concept doesn't work in real football though. Otherwise formations and each player's position are pointless, put any player in any position and he will perform the roles of such position anyway. The reality is it won't happen, or it won't happen efficiently. By nature Rashford will be staying up front and looking forward to attack and if you force him to backtrack to center of midfield to offer support to the 2 midfielders on losing the ball he won't be able to do it efficiently (because he has never done that before and it has never been his role, being always a forward player) and at the same time will lose his contributions in the attack because he can't focus on it. Basically you will end up playing with 10 men on the field.

You want to put a player who can work as extra man in midfield you put an attacking midfielder in such position like Periera, who will know how to do such role efficiently on both sides. Otherwise with such lineup Scholes has put, it's logical that Rashford will be a second striker not an attacking midfielder, which will unbalance the team and open us up for counters. It will look against some trash teams but whenever we are put under pressure or against a good counter attacking team, we will get destroyed.
It’s something which happens every single week in real football. Teams who line up with two forwards will look for one (or both) of them to drop in on the deepest midfield player(s) in their set defensive shape. If they are looking to press high from there, essentially that player is tasked with recognising when the opportunity to apply pressure to a centre half arises while ensuring their run is angled so that a pass to the midfielder they are responsible for is cut off. You see this all the time in games currently because pressing high is very popular and has been for a while.

When Rooney played with Van Nistelrooy he very clearly operated deeper and would track and apply pressure to deep midfield players when the team was defending. On occasion you would see Van Nistelrooy do the same while Rooney was higher, whether that be because Rooney had made a run and the move had broke down with Van Nistelrooy covering for him, or simply because they were taking turns about sharing the workload and we just happened to see Rooney there more often because it suited how both players played in both attack and defence. The instruction for one of the two to drop in was clear. Same with Rooney and Saha. Same with Rooney and Tevez - but with Tevez generally being the one to drop in. All these players are forwards, and Rooney or Tevez playing in a position off of another striker would be labelled second strikers. Defensively, the role they played was the same as what would have been expected from Ozil, Vidal, Park Ji-Sung, Iniesta or Gerrard in the same position for those teams.

Alexis Sanchez was outstanding for Udinese playing off of Di Natale, a workhorse who would always press the midfield in defence and occupy the defenders in attack. Marco Reus last year at Dortmund and Golovin playing off Dzyuba at the last World Cup, both looked to screen in front of the deepest midfield player and press alongside the striker when the opposition had the ball along the back four, and would look to drop goalside of said midfielder if the ball was able to be progressed forward. Suarez, against us, done a great job of cutting off passes to midfield, and applying pressure when he was bypassed often resulting in the ball being played right back. Haaland done something similar in a Champions League game for Salzburg this season. Griezmann, for both Atletico Madrid and France, has been supremely defensively diligent in both situations where he drops off the main striker, and where he and his strike partner both drop and work on the same line shutting down the space between themselves and their midfield pair.

Barcelona, Atletico, Valencia, Bayern, Dortmund, RB Leipzig, Juventus, Napoli, Benfica and Lyon all either play or have played a 4-4-2, or a 4-4-1-1, or 4-2-3-1, with very much a ‘forward’ rather than a ‘midfielder’ in that position in between the lead striker and the central midfielders, to varying extents, in the past two years. Recently both Leicester and Monaco built very successful seasons around shapes involving two attackers while playing in wildly different ways. Eintracht Frankfurt last year were the same, playing with both Haller and Jovic up front. Salzburg are generally giving a good account of themselves this season and, though it doesn’t look like they particularly stick to a certain formation, they tend to use a front two and very attacking support options. Our last two league opponents both use a 4-4-2. This is not merely a theoretical concept, but a practical set up which has been, and will continue to be, used abundantly.


Thought we were talking about in attack.

Centre midfielders job, like Scholes used to do, is to get in the box, whereas a defensive midfielder is tasked to sit in front of the back four and break up play.

A second striker is more someone who works in tandem more with the main striker and gets into the box more often, whilst leaving the centre midfielder to create, whereas an attacking midfielder is the link between midfield and attack and will try and assist the wingers and striker.

The wingers/wide midfielders have different roles. In a 4231, wingers tend to play as wide attacking midfielders, where priority will be on finding pockets of space in between the lines, whereas wingers in a 4411 will look to exploit wide areas.
So do you think you could set out Scholes’ lineup before a game and tell them you were playing a 4-4-1-1, and then at half time inform them that the formation was changing to a 4-2-3-1 and they would all understand these little changes in position and in what they’re supposed to be looking to do?

It’s all such basic, generic rubbish.

A centre midfielder should get in the box like Scholes used to do. Well, Scholes never played alongside another midfielder who got in the box like he used to - so was Keane not doing his job properly? Or, since a 4-4-1-1 consists of ‘centre midfielders’ and a 4-2-3-1 uses ‘defensive midfielders’, is there another formation which uses one ‘centre midfielder’ and one ‘defensive midfielder’ in a two-man midfield? What was Pirlo? Can you acknowledge the difference in how Vieira interpreted his role depending on whether he played with Gilberto Silva or Edu?

Attacking midfielder or second striker - Ballack? Lampard? Guily? Boateng? Van De Beek? Vidal? Bergkamp? Many players don’t fit your broad, sweeping descriptions.

Is there another formation for using wide attacking midfielders with a second striker? Or one for using wingers with an attacking midfielder?

It’s all nonsense. A player’s position does not determine that player’s abilities and tendencies.
 

thepolice123

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It’s something which happens every single week in real football. Teams who line up with two forwards will look for one (or both) of them to drop in on the deepest midfield player(s) in their set defensive shape. If they are looking to press high from there, essentially that player is tasked with recognising when the opportunity to apply pressure to a centre half arises while ensuring their run is angled so that a pass to the midfielder they are responsible for is cut off. You see this all the time in games currently because pressing high is very popular and has been for a while.
I have no doubts Rashford can carry out defensive tactical instructions. The attacking side is the main problem because Rashford is not a second striker. His decision-making and passing are also not good enough to play in a deeper role. He is a different player compared to Rooney and Tevez who are pure second strikers and have always played behind the main forward throughout their careers. So its not really a valid comparison.

We can implement strategies for him to drift left but this requires alot of running and really begs the question what kind of player are we going to play on that left midfield role.
 

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I think they both have it right depending on who we are playing. Even under SAF, we had our 4-4-2, but when it came to a tough game we often played a 4-5-1. So I would look at Scholes' formation for the majority of the games, and some sort of variation on a back 5 for the tougher matches. Mind you, I wouldn't keep James out of the starting XI for either formation. Perhaps in a back 5 (or 3, whatever you want to call it) I would put AWB beside Maguire at RCD and play James as a WB/FB down the right. The problem with the back 5 in Hargraeves formation is that our width is coming from AWB and as great as he has been defensively, he offers very little in attack...
 

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Well done Hargreaves on not getting injured during the video.