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Litch

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Think I’ll leave this now, was reluctant to enter the conversation, as the longer it goes back and forth between me and the rest of the caf who think Scott is amazing, it will seem like I have some sort of agenda, and be called something ridiculous like a ‘McTominay hater’ knowing this place.

Said my piece. I don’t see the top talent everyone else seems to see. I think if he left us he’d be looking at Palace and the like, and if he were English, he wouldn’t be one of the young midfielders being touted for the national team. Not withstanding, he’s here now, and good luck to him.
Agree. The irony is Scott people are absolutely right that Scotts a good fit as he reflects where we are at currently which is very average. Said this before, if he placed for Palace no one would be talking on here about signing him nor would any of the other teams in the top 6. That lad has a limited skill set and for his size actually has poor tackling technique where he kind of falls over into tackles and wins very few headers despite his size.
I guess time will tell but if this lad is going to be one of the cornerstones of Utd midfield, we have big problems and again shows how far we have fallen when the likes of Fletch and Carrick were called on here for not being good enough when compared to those they followed....well those two players would walk straight into this team.
 

haram

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Easy to say that now. I recall both his time in our academy and the time of those I’m referring to. He showed no more ability than Ben Pearson, Matt James, David Jones, Ryan Tunnicliffe, Larnell Cole and co who never got a look in here. If he was let go instead of, to everyone’s surprise, brought into the squad by Jose - we would have been talking about Rotherham at best or SPL.

I think if we drew Ben Pearson’s name and said ‘you will be in the squad for the next few years, he’d have had good games and bad games, he’d have been ‘useful’, he’d have run and tackled and been told that he ‘gets it’ when the fancy foreigners are not standing up. Same goes for others. However, the bar was above him. Josh Harrop was far more talented than Scott McTominay for example.

You say ‘just because he doesn’t have a touch (or passing, or dribbling for that matter) of Gomes like it shouldn’t matter if he doesn’t. That’s the point. Angel Gomes isn’t the first or only young player to have that level of talent. It’s not an exceptional level that top clubs shouldn’t necessarily require. The likes of Foden, Nelson, Gibbs-White and a number of others also have this level of talent, which is why they are the ones selected from their academies to progress. If you don’t have the ability of Gomes that is fine too, but then it’s not mandatory for you to be given a chance at United, I thought only that tier of talent gets a real chance taken on them at the biggest clubs. The rest often join a smaller team.

The point with Gomes, and Rossi, Pogba, Januzaj and co is that most youth players don’t get the luxury of a proper crack at the United first team unless they are in this bracket. I’m not suggesting McTominay could not be a professional footballer or anything, or even a PL one. I’m saying that I don’t expect Mark Noble to come through a United academy either. There’s no point in me listing the things Mark Noble is ‘good’ at. He isn’t good enough at them, is the point - not to be given a chance at Manchester United anyway. And if he was, then the same could be said about so many other players at a similar level. That’s my point with Scott. I see no exceptional talent at all to explain why he plays for Manchester United and not Bournemouth. Most reserves don’t get a proper crack. The Gomes we speak of may not make it here given the chance. I’m just saying that it is a lot more obvious to me why he should have been given that chance than a Scott McTominay. He’s an upper level talent, not a mid-level. Other ‘good’ ones like Daelhi, Eikrem, Buffonge have not gotten a shot. DJ Buffonge doesn’t have less footballing talent than Scott McTominay, and if I were him I’d watch Scott and feel I were entitled to a chance at United too, if he is.
You’ve typed all of this and the fact remains Scott is a better footballer than most reserve players. It’s that simple.
 

haram

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Name a bunch of United reserve players who didn't make it, claim they are as good as Scott, when they aren’t, is not a good argument.
 

Rozay

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Name a bunch of United reserve players who didn't make it, claim they are as good as Scott, when they aren’t, is not a good argument.
Do you actually watch our reserve team at all? Did you watch much of Scott McTominay in the reserves?

Again, easy to speak now. Fortunately, things are not deleted here. Just head over to the reserve forum. Look up the player thread of each one I mentioned, and look up Scott’s. Well, Scott didn’t even have one until he made the tour I believe as nobody paid any attention to him.
 

Raven

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Do you actually watch our reserve team at all? Did you watch much of Scott McTominay in the reserves?

Again, easy to speak now. Fortunately, things are not deleted here. Just head over to the reserve forum. Look up the player thread of each one I mentioned, and look up Scott’s. Well, Scott didn’t even have one until he made the tour I believe as nobody paid any attention to him.
Wasn't he also tiny when he was at reserve level?
 

haram

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Do you actually watch our reserve team at all? Did you watch much of Scott McTominay in the reserves?

Again, easy to speak now. Fortunately, things are not deleted here. Just head over to the reserve forum. Look up the player thread of each one I mentioned, and look up Scott’s. Well, Scott didn’t even have one until he made the tour I believe as nobody paid any attention to him.
That just means professional coaches are far more qualified in judging a player than people on a forum are? Yes I do watch reserve football and am aware that a lot of players who get hyped don't make it.
 

Rozay

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Wasn't he also tiny when he was at reserve level?
For a part of it. Even if that were the case, if we arguing he isn’t all about height - then as a young midfielder he should have impressed while short, like Gomes has.
 

Rozay

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That just means professional coaches are far more qualified in judging a player than people on a forum are? Yes I do watch reserve football and am aware that a lot of players who get hyped don't make it.
Thought this would be the response. I can’t argue with it, because in this forum, the ‘are you saying you/we know more than the manager?’ is the one that signals the beginning of pointless debate.
 

Litch

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Easy to say that now. I recall both his time in our academy and the time of those I’m referring to. He showed no more ability than Ben Pearson, Matt James, David Jones, Ryan Tunnicliffe, Larnell Cole and co who never got a look in here. If he was let go instead of, to everyone’s surprise, brought into the squad by Jose - we would have been talking about Rotherham at best or SPL.

I think if we drew Ben Pearson’s name and said ‘you will be in the squad for the next few years, he’d have had good games and bad games, he’d have been ‘useful’, he’d have run and tackled and been told that he ‘gets it’ when the fancy foreigners are not standing up. Same goes for others. However, the bar was above him. Josh Harrop was far more talented than Scott McTominay for example.

You say ‘just because he doesn’t have a touch (or passing, or dribbling for that matter) of Gomes like it shouldn’t matter if he doesn’t. That’s the point. Angel Gomes isn’t the first or only young player to have that level of talent. It’s not an exceptional level that top clubs shouldn’t necessarily require. The likes of Foden, Nelson, Gibbs-White and a number of others also have this level of talent, which is why they are the ones selected from their academies to progress. If you don’t have the ability of Gomes that is fine too, but then it’s not mandatory for you to be given a chance at United, I thought only that tier of talent gets a real chance taken on them at the biggest clubs. The rest often join a smaller team.

The point with Gomes, and Rossi, Pogba, Januzaj and co is that most youth players don’t get the luxury of a proper crack at the United first team unless they are in this bracket. I’m not suggesting McTominay could not be a professional footballer or anything, or even a PL one. I’m saying that I don’t expect Mark Noble to come through a United academy either. There’s no point in me listing the things Mark Noble is ‘good’ at. He isn’t good enough at them, is the point - not to be given a chance at Manchester United anyway. And if he was, then the same could be said about so many other players at a similar level. That’s my point with Scott. I see no exceptional talent at all to explain why he plays for Manchester United and not Bournemouth. Most reserves don’t get a proper crack. The Gomes we speak of may not make it here given the chance. I’m just saying that it is a lot more obvious to me why he should have been given that chance than a Scott McTominay. He’s an upper level talent, not a mid-level. Other ‘good’ ones like Daelhi, Eikrem, Buffonge have not gotten a shot. DJ Buffonge doesn’t have less footballing talent than Scott McTominay, and if I were him I’d watch Scott and feel I were entitled to a chance at United too, if he is.
Scott for me was a Jose pawn presented almost as the polar opposite to Pogba during a time where that relationship was very difficult and it kind of worked. Jose created that stupid award that didn't exist to continue to make the point. He played Scott out of position when there were others on the bench that it was their natural position. Like said, not his fault but for me he represents something about where this club is now going. I watch Gomes the other night and thought this lad is at the wrong club as the physical attributes of one player in Scott with be proven to be greater to how this team plays than the technical ability of Gomes. I know they are very different but it would speak volumes to where this team was going, if it was the other way around....
 

haram

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Thought this would be the response. I can’t argue with it, because in this forum, the ‘are you saying you/we know more than the manager?’ is the one that signals the beginning of pointless debate.
Sometimes people need to accept that they are wrong and the coaches are right. Comparing Scott to Tunnicliffe or Pearson doesn’t run because Scott clearly combines everything he has to be effective at this level.
 

Rozay

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Sometimes people need to accept that they are wrong and the coaches are right. Comparing Scott to Tunnicliffe or Pearson doesn’t run because Scott clearly combines everything he has to be effective at this level.
Okay.
 

andersj

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Think I’ll leave this now, was reluctant to enter the conversation, as the longer it goes back and forth between me and the rest of the caf who think Scott is amazing, it will seem like I have some sort of agenda, and be called something ridiculous like a ‘McTominay hater’ knowing this place.

Said my piece. I don’t see the top talent everyone else seems to see. I think if he left us he’d be looking at Palace and the like, and if he were English, he wouldn’t be one of the young midfielders being touted for the national team. Not withstanding, he’s here now, and good luck to him.
For the record, I have not said he is amazing. I have not said he is a top talent either. But top mentality and talent usually takes you further than top talent, and I would be surprised to see him be a top player. Wilshere had a lot more «ability talent» than Henderson, Milner, Winjaldum, Sissoko or Winks, but he will never play in a CL-final, will he?

You obviously feel strongly about McTominay and that is fine. But to me you come off as someone who made up his mind early and struggle changing it (most people do) due to your approach. It is quite obvious that you are factually wrong and that your logic is flawed on several accounts. If you are unable to see that McTominay has a good touch, fine, I can’t sit down with you, watch a game and explain it too you. Probably would not work either, as you have obviously made up your mind.

You mention alot of players coming through at Man Utd who you feel were bigger talents. They were not. But even if they were, they lacked the most important part. You even mention a few names, and several of them played for Man Utd at a time where we barely had midfielders. And we had a manager a lot more willing to give talents a chance than Mourinho.

You even mention Pearson or Harrop who was more or less the same age group as McTominay and was probably introduced at the same time to the first team. They did not make it. He did. To say that they where better or more talented (or equally) makes little sense. People who evaluate players for a living and who see McTominay every day at Carrington obviously felt different. Maybe you, instead of searching for evidence backing a conclusion you made a few years ago when you had seen only a few minutes of McTominay and had very little information about him, should consider that for a few minutes?

Furthermore, it was actually Giggs and van Gaal who introduced McTominay to the first team squad. Not Mourinho. But Mourinho liked what he saw.

In summary, I understand that it seems weird to you that McTominay has been given a proper chance at Man Utd while a lot of others have not. But that is not because McTominay is a poor footballer or talent. It is because you are poor at evaluating the talent and ability of footballers.
 
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Litch

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Sometimes people need to accept that they are wrong and the coaches are right. Comparing Scott to Tunnicliffe or Pearson doesn’t run because Scott clearly combines everything he has to be effective at this level.
I think it's difficult to compare because there was never the opportunity to. I've watched lots of Utd youth team football and Scott not unlike Rashford were not seen on the same levels as others but for them multiple injuries created a chance for Rashford and Jose agenda for Scott. You are right though, he has everything we need to be effective at this level which is another 20 plus points behind City and Liverpool. I actually genuinely think he wouldn't get into the West Ham, Everton, Wolves and Leicester team and I can't say that about many Utd players even Jones and Smalling.
 

Raven

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For a part of it. Even if that were the case, if we arguing he isn’t all about height - then as a young midfielder he should have impressed while short, like Gomes has.
Gomes is a world class talent, he's starting to break into the first team at 18. Not sure why you're comparing the 2.
 

haram

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I think it's difficult to compare because there was never the opportunity to. I've watched lots of Utd youth team football and Scott not unlike Rashford were not seen on the same levels as others but for them multiple injuries created a chance for Rashford and Jose agenda for Scott. You are right though, he has everything we need to be effective at this level which is another 20 plus points behind City and Liverpool. I actually genuinely think he wouldn't get into the West Ham, Everton, Wolves and Leicester team and I can't say that about many Utd players even Jones and Smalling.
It’s not difficult to compare and realise if you understand football and watch Scott play but ok.
 

Litch

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It’s not difficult to compare and realise if you understand football and watch Scott play but ok.
...and you don't have the monopoly of football knowledge either and it's arrogant to suggest that you do. The forum is full of differing opinions and whilst I don't agree with all of them, I don't suggest that my understanding is better than anyone else. Some people on here need to learn to offer a view without the need to belittle others.....
 

haram

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Here comes this genius poster. Robbie you’re on ignore now, shut up. Worst poster on this whole forum.
 

haram

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...and you don't have the monopoly of football knowledge either and it's arrogant to suggest that you do. The forum is full of differing opinions and whilst I don't agree with all of them, I don't suggest that my understanding is better than anyone else. Some people on here need to learn to offer a view without the need to belittle others.....
You dont need a monopoly of football knowledge to know Scott is better than Pearson and Tunnicliffe :houllier:.
 

haram

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You certainly have a lot of weird and strange opinions.
Thanks. If you want to discuss them you can quote me in the threads. Robbie just follows me around making shit snide remarks.

If defending the team when we finished 2nd is weird and strange, then ok. Similarly if saying Pogba is a top player is strange and weird, ok. If criticising Martial’s work rate and movement before this season is strange and weird, ok. We can go through everything in those threads.
 
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Litch

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You dont need a monopoly of football knowledge to know Scott is better than Pearson and Tunnicliffe :houllier:.
First it's still an opinion and one that's based on one player that had the opportunity and others that didn't. Not saying the outcome would be different but what I can say in my opinion was Scott wasn't on anyone's radar at youth level as a forward and the thing that changed for him in how he was seen was how much he grew.
 

haram

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First it's still an opinion and one that's based on one player that had the opportunity and others that didn't. Not saying the outcome would be different but what I can say in my opinion was Scott wasn't on anyone's radar at youth level as a forward and the thing that changed for him in how he was seen was how much he grew.
The coaches saw it in him and the rest his history. We can discuss Pearson and Tunnicliffe all you want, they weren’t good enough and everything that has happened since they left the club proves that.
 

Robbie Boy

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Anyhow, I feel it’s absolutely blind luck and Mourinho shit-housery that he even got a chance here. Fact is though, when he’s played, he’s generally done an ok job. The fact that so many would have him as an automatic first choice starter is far more indicative of our midfield woes than it is of Scott’s ability.

I really can’t fault him as he’s taken the chances that have come his way. If we don’t - and I assume we won’t - reinforce our midfield this summer, I can see him getting plenty of game time.
 

PTSTSL

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He'll have a good career here, not because we're poor at the moment, but because he's a technically and tactically sound young player, who'll play for the team and not for himself.

The 'stardust' in the midfield will come from elsewhere.

Further point is that the Premiership is so quick and physical these days most players are squad players unless exceptional.
 

Litch

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The coaches saw it in him and the rest his history. We can discuss Pearson and Tunnicliffe all you want, they weren’t good enough and everything that has happened since they left the club proves that.
No ones arguing that and in my opinion Scott could easily have gone the same way. Are these the same coaches that never played Pogs and he left for million pounds? Singularly the most expensive mistake in the clubs history and like you say, it all happened since and the club proved that 95m later. No one has the barometer of knowledge even at that level. Time will tell I guess...
 

haram

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No ones arguing that and in my opinion Scott could easily have gone the same way. Are these the same coaches that never played Pogs and he left for million pounds? Singularly the most expensive mistake in the clubs history and like you say, it all happened since and the club proved that 95m later. No one has the barometer of knowledge even at that level. Time will tell I guess...
Pogba was rated and we offered him a contract so that's a bad example.
 

Rozay

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For the record, I have not said he is amazing. I have not said he is a top talent either. But top mentality and talent usually takes you further than top talent, and I would be surprised to see him be a top player. Wilshere had a lot more «ability talent» than Henderson, Milner, Winjaldum, Sissoko or Winks, but he will never play in a CL-final, will he?

You obviously feel strongly about McTominay and that is fine. But to me you come off as someone who made up his mind early and struggle changing it (most people do) due to your approach. It is quite obvious that you are factually wrong and that your logic is flawed on several accounts. If you are unable to see that McTominay has a good touch, fine, I can’t sit down with you, watch a game and explain it too you. Probably would not work either, as you have obviously made up your mind.

You mention alot of players coming through at Man Utd who you feel were bigger talents. They were not. But even if they were, they lacked the most important part. You even mention a few names, and several of them played for Man Utd at a time where we barely had midfielders. And we had a manager a lot more willing to give talents a chance than Mourinho.

You even mention Pearson or Harrop who was more or less the same age group as McTominay and was probably introduced at the same time to the first team. They did not make it. He did. To say that they where better or more talented (or equally) makes little sense. People who evaluate players for a living and who see McTominay every day at Carrington obviously felt different. Maybe you, instead of searching for evidence backing a conclusion you made a few years ago when you had seen only a few minutes of McTominay and had very little information about him, should consider that for a few minutes?

Furthermore, it was actually Giggs and van Gaal who introduced McTominay to the first team squad. Not Mourinho. But Mourinho liked what he saw.

In summary, I understand that it seems weird to you that McTominay has been given a proper chance at Man Utd while a lot of others have not. But that is not because McTominay is a poor footballer or talent. It is because you are poor at evaluating the talent and ability of footballers.
I was with you for a while, but ultimately, like @haram, your post descended into you speaking in definitives and telling me what I refuse to accept and what is ‘factually’ wrong in my evaluation of a particular footballer, so I recuse myself from this debate.

It’s clear to all that I think McTominay is an average young player. It’s clear to me that the rest of this forum think he’s a lot better than that. Those that disagreed with me have even convinced themselves that their opinion is a ‘fact’ (I wasn’t aware as a general football observer that it is taken as a footballing fact that McTominay is a very good/top young player) and to me, just as you seem to think I suffer from some sort of human deficiency of refusing to change my mind etc, you, and others are the same. As far as I am concerned, I have seen top young midfielders, and I have seen Scott McTominay. There is a difference. To me. You can disagree, as is your right.
 

andersj

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I was with you for a while, but ultimately, like @haram, your post descended into you speaking in definitives and telling me what I refuse to accept and what is ‘factually’ wrong in my evaluation of a particular footballer, so I recuse myself from this debate.

It’s clear to all that I think McTominay is an average young player. It’s clear to me that the rest of this forum think he’s a lot better than that. Those that disagreed with me have even convinced themselves that their opinion is a ‘fact’ (I wasn’t aware as a general football observer that it is taken as a footballing fact that McTominay is a very good/top young player) and to me, just as you seem to think I suffer from some sort of human deficiency of refusing to change my mind etc, you, and others are the same. As far as I am concerned, I have seen top young midfielders, and I have seen Scott McTominay. There is a difference. To me. You can disagree, as is your right.
Oh, sorry, I was not aware you are the only on entiteled to «speaking in definitives». I have neither said that it is a fact that McT is a good footballer, so this obviously got a bit too complicated.
 

Rozay

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Oh, sorry, I was not aware you are the only on entiteled to «speaking in definitives». I have neither said that it is a fact that McT is a good footballer, so this obviously got a bit too complicated.
I have repeatedly said throughout this thread that ‘in my opinion’, or ‘from my observation’. You said my argument was ‘factually wrong’ and am basically a lost cause if ‘I can’t see that McTominay has a good touch’. These are not established footballing facts.
 

Litch

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Pogba was rated and we offered him a contract so that's a bad example.
Didn't say he wasn't rated, said we didn't play him so clearly he wasn't trusted enough rather than a retired player or full back. The point was more about coaches don't always call it right. Like I said, time will tell and I hope I'm proven wrong.
 

Tango80

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He's clearly a good player.

Not overly flamboyant or anything but works hard, never disappears and is generally tidy. Big lad as well but not slow with it.

It't those kind of midfielders that have long and successful careers rather than the 'talented', skillful ones. Bit like James Milner.
 

andersj

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I have repeatedly said throughout this thread that ‘in my opinion’, or ‘from my observation’. You said my argument was ‘factually wrong’ and am basically a lost cause if ‘I can’t see that McTominay has a good touch’. These are not established footballing facts.
Really?! Just a few examples;

He isn’t excellent on the ball.
He showed no more ability than Ben Pearson, Matt James, David Jones, Ryan Tunnicliffe, Larnell Cole and co who never got a look in here.
Josh Harrop was far more talented than Scott McTominay for example.
 

Isotope

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He was bossing Inter's midfield with such controlled, mature performance. Man, I love how this guy plays.
 

Tom Van Persie

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He was great once again today. He's underrated by some of our fans because they made their minds up about him being a nothing player when Mourinho was here and refuse to acknowledge the clear improvements in his game. He's much more confident in his passing now and is getting better at bringing the ball forward and playing through balls for our attackers. Good addition to have in our squad.