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2019-20 Performances


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jamesjimmybyrondean

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You’re probably right Fred is I’d say a bit better. A bit more quality but I’d say also a little more erratic and inconsistent.

The point more is though we don’t need both of them. The only reason I’d sell Fred is because McTominay is an academy kid who loves the club and will be on lower wages. Sell whichever makes the most financial sense really though.
:lol: Mctominay is one of Ole's favourite and is being pushed as an important member of the squad anyways. At the very least I expect him to be on the bench and if he's on the bench that only gives room for one more midfielder on the bench too. This midfield has to be creative and Fred isn't that midfielder.

Basically what I mean is our current midfield is Matic Bruno and Pogba. Mctominay and Fred are the bench options but they offer the same thing. You can call on one of them if you want to get defensive but who do you call when you need better creativity?
 

charlenefan

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Hasn't been really as good as he was previously ever since the league resumed. Hope he finds up his form soon. On form he's a great player to have.
People forget he missed a lot of football before the lock down as well, literally just came back from injury in time to feature in 3 or 4 games before we were put into lockdown
 

He'sRaldo

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He usually needs time on the ball to pick out a non sideways/ backwards pass. The problem is he needs to work on those little tricks midfielders do that give them more time.

You see Matic/ Pogba in deeper positions shielding, dribbling, feinting, etc, to gain a yard of space and a few seconds. If he's able to work on that he'll improve both his passing and his composure. The question is, is he good enough technically to learn those things?
 

limerickcitykid

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I see, they're not creative enough then. When was that a major part of their game? They are both solid box to box players, and were playing well before the lockdown, when we were crying out for a creative type of player to play in front of them, then Bruno arrived, and we started to play good football, where this 'shit football' and the whole team not playing well was I don't know. The whole team played poorly today, and that is what I said. When you have Mata and Lingard playing up front against a deep lying defensive team relying on quick counter attacks then any player will struggle to pass forward. I don't know how much a 23 year old can develop skills that he doesn't seem to have now, and change roles, I would imagine that different players will develop differently over time.
It’s never been apart of their game, the entire point. We don’t need two midfielder who can’t create anything. If you find that acceptable then sure, I don’t.

You don’t know where the shit football was? It was the entire half of the season where we were barely top half. Yes, we started playing better when Bruno and Matic came in. How is that a good endorsement for them? That we played better when Matic came in. Or that we completely relied on Bruno because they are incapable of doing it.

Blame Mata and Lingard all you want. Fred and McTominay have been unable to create or control a match all season, nothing to do with Lingard or Mata. There is no need for Manchester United to play both of them regularly unless you were happy in 8th place.
 

Zoo

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Scott needs to work on some aspects of his game and his time will come again but his injury allowed Fred and Matić to get a run and move ahead of him.
 

Web of Bissaka

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^ Other than that, yeah, not a good performance.. being honest. Defensively good like usual.

The idea is to get him to support Dalot defensively, but then it's against Norwich, Fred-McT seems to be overkill. Prefer just either one to sit in front of the defense.
 

Sayros

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I think he's getting written off a bit here off the last few days, he's a young player and he was pretty solid before the season got stopped. He has to get back in game rhythm, it's not as if he's had as much game time as some of the others who have hit form, it might take him some more time, but I actually think he's going to get better and make himself an important part of the midfield.
 

Devil may care

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I don't think he should be written off but I also don't see him as a crucial first 11 level player going forward if we are keeping Pogba and looking to catch the top 2 and keep a lock on Chelsea. McTominay has shown improvement and I see him having a John O'Shea career here, which is nothing to sniff at.
 

Skills

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Would anyone think he'd make a good RB? It seems like a lot of the old school B2B midfielders end up playing there now, because of the high work rate, energy and fairly decent passing (which can be translated into crossing with enough practice).

We are stacked there though, so there's no motivation to do it.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Correct me if I'm wrong. I've seen some people suggest Mctominay would take over from Matic but he can't do what Matic does. Mctominay's ability is his intensity and energy and he's a ball winner. Isn't it better to work on him like an Ndidi? He has more attributes to play like Ndidi than do what Matic does.
 

Untd55

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I think he's getting written off a bit here off the last few days, he's a young player and he was pretty solid before the season got stopped. He has to get back in game rhythm, it's not as if he's had as much game time as some of the others who have hit form, it might take him some more time, but I actually think he's going to get better and make himself an important part of the midfield.
To be fair, he was a first-team midfielder during our worst half-a-season since the early 90s (maybe even worse than then). He may be alright for midtable but doesn't come close to one for title contenders.

He was a first-team midfielder when we were struggling to create anything against bottom-half teams and were conceding a lot of goals. I am not blaming everything on him, but it clearly shows his limitations that our midfield was weak during that period.

He is a squad player at best, but I still think we can do better even there. I feel he is a player being bigged up simply because he is a youth product. People wouldn't want anything to do with him if he was at another club.
 

Rozay

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I’ll just sit back and read this, as when I was something of a lone voice I was a ‘hater’.

For what it’s worth, he’s become better than I used to think he was, but I think if you take away all the fluff and romanticised comments about him, he’s never looked a player who should be playing for one of the best teams in the world. I mean, he can play sometimes, like how P.Neville ‘player centre midfield’ against Arsenal and won MOTM. But all that ‘wouldn’t swap him for anyone’ and ‘one of the best midfielders in the league’ talk was massively hyperbolic.

I don’t even think his lack of top class ability is necessarily a problem. He could get by with what he has if he were at least a traditional defensive midfielder, who could play a disciplined role and screen the back four. With his strength, he could be a real player in that role, without needing to be a Busquets on the ball. But as someone who wants to feature in all phases of the game, he’ll need a bit more I think.
 

Untd55

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I agree. People love to make up excuses for players. Half of the squad is easily upgradeable or not needed, due to having the same level of players in the squad already
Exactly. There are a few things that people seem to be ignoring about McTominay. His poor passing record is something people seem to want to ignore, which is strange. If they do acknowledge it, they say that Fred is just as bad, which is simply not true. Neither is he all that good defensively, which people want to make him out to be based on him being big.

Another thing people seem to ignore is that he was a first-team midfielder during our worst half-season since the 90s.

Our defensive record has improved massively since Matic has returned to the first team; it is not a coincidence. He has started 10 of the last 11 Premier League games in which we conceded 7 goals (all conceded in 4 games - 6 clean sheets)

We conceded 14 goals in the 10 games prior to his return. The fixtures in which Matic was back in the first-team were probably harder as well. Without Matic, we conceded in every one of the 10 games before he returned to the first team.

Matic Started: Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton, Wolves, Chelsea, Sheff Utd (Rest are lower teams)
No Matic: Man City, Liverpool, Spurs, Sheff Utd (Rest are lower teams)
 

Stobzilla

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One of a few players that we have who is willing to trust in his ability to switch play from one flank to the other.

He needs to be honest with himself though, he needs to be more of a sitting type of midfielder, he has the energy and physical capabilities to be a box to box player, but of he saved all of that and used it in a positionally disciplined destroyer type of role, then he could be extremely effective. He has it in him to be a direct replacement for Matic, but he needs to work at that role, he has two excellent role models to learn from though.
 

roseguy64

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Yes McTominay was one of the main reasons we couldn't score against bad teams and nothing to do with which players were playing in the attacking 4.
 

Freeney

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Nothing more than a squad player at best. Always has been and always will be.
You need these type of players in your club though. Players that accept thier roles and accept the bench more often than not.
 

DoomSlayer

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I’ll just sit back and read this, as when I was something of a lone voice I was a ‘hater’.

For what it’s worth, he’s become better than I used to think he was, but I think if you take away all the fluff and romanticised comments about him, he’s never looked a player who should be playing for one of the best teams in the world. I mean, he can play sometimes, like how P.Neville ‘player centre midfield’ against Arsenal and won MOTM. But all that ‘wouldn’t swap him for anyone’ and ‘one of the best midfielders in the league’ talk was massively hyperbolic.

I don’t even think his lack of top class ability is necessarily a problem. He could get by with what he has if he were at least a traditional defensive midfielder, who could play a disciplined role and screen the back four. With his strength, he could be a real player in that role, without needing to be a Busquets on the ball. But as someone who wants to feature in all phases of the game, he’ll need a bit more I think.
I believe he can still make it as a bit less technical version of Fletcher, but with a lot better physical attributes. And Fletcher was indispensable for us in some crucial moments, that sending off in the semis of the 2009 CL was so annoying, because he was at his peak and his presence was felt every single big game we had.
 

Rozay

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I believe he can still make it as a bit less technical version of Fletcher, but with a lot better physical attributes. And Fletcher was indispensable for us in some crucial moments, that sending off in the semis of the 2009 CL was so annoying, because he was at his peak and his presence was felt every single big game we had.
I think Fred is already a similar player to what Fletcher was at his very best. Fred is a bit more talented, although Fletch had a little more goal threat. Barcelona would have walked round us in exactly the same way even if he played in 2009 though.

A less technical version of that sort of player? Sure, I agree that Scott could fulfil that role. It’s not the most difficult role to fill tbh, and most of what you require is good fitness and a good attitude. Scott has both of those.

That said, I would one day like to get to the level where we can play even good teams (big games) and not feel the reflex need to play one of these types of players. We have all the money and resources as any other big club. The ceding of control (with the ball) of matches before they start is something we’ve done more than I’d like over recent times. City would come to Old Trafford with De Bruyne and Silva in front of a DM and play us off the park. Barcelona would line up the same way against us as they would against Getafe. That instinct of needing someone to chase the ball all game because we are playing a ‘good team’ - like, aren’t we supposed to be one of those too? I think we should have one of these players, hopefully Scott, but I’d love for us to take the initiative against other good sides more than we have done in recent years. If we come up against a Barcelona who you just stand no chance if competing with on the ball, then fair enough, but the domestic rivals, not so much. At the very least not at home.
 

DoomSlayer

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I think Fred is already a similar player to what Fletcher was at his very best. Fred is a bit more talented, although Fletch had a little more goal threat. Barcelona would have walked round us in exactly the same way even if he played in 2009 though.

A less technical version of that sort of player? Sure, I agree that Scott could fulfil that role. It’s not the most difficult role to fill tbh, and most of what you require is good fitness and a good attitude. Scott has both of those.

That said, I would one day like to get to the level where we can play even good teams (big games) and not feel the reflex need to play one of these types of players. We have all the money and resources as any other big club. The ceding of control (with the ball) of matches before they start is something we’ve done more than I’d like over recent times. City would come to Old Trafford with De Bruyne and Silva in front of a DM and play us off the park. Barcelona would line up the same way against us as they would against Getafe. That instinct of needing someone to chase the ball all game because we are playing a ‘good team’ - like, aren’t we supposed to be one of those too? I think we should have one of these players, hopefully Scott, but I’d love for us to take the initiative against other good sides more than we have done in recent years. If we come up against a Barcelona who you just stand no chance if competing with on the ball, then fair enough, but the domestic rivals, not so much. At the very least not at home.
Yeah, I agree with that and to be fair, it's obvious that this is the direction Ole wants to take us in. I think that this team, with a couple quality additions and an effective pre-season, can show its' full growth next season.

My thoughts haven't changed on McTominay though, I believe he can be a great influence on the whole squad, both on and off the pitch.
 

cyberman

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Yes McTominay was one of the main reasons we couldn't score against bad teams and nothing to do with which players were playing in the attacking 4.
I agree, I have no idea why our DM constantly gets called out when we cant break sides down. Our attackers had all of the ball, you dont want Scott with the ball on the edge of the box over Pogba, Bruno etc.
Theyre just easy targets. Look at the Matic thread for the same arguments and about turns.
A few pages back he was getting praise for playing deeper and passing the ball to our forward players quicker. Now he's getting abuse because Bruno skied 20 shots into the stand
 

In Rainbows

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That said, I would one day like to get to the level where we can play even good teams (big games) and not feel the reflex need to play one of these types of players. We have all the money and resources as any other big club. The ceding of control (with the ball) of matches before they start is something we’ve done more than I’d like over recent times. City would come to Old Trafford with De Bruyne and Silva in front of a DM and play us off the park. Barcelona would line up the same way against us as they would against Getafe. That instinct of needing someone to chase the ball all game because we are playing a ‘good team’ - like, aren’t we supposed to be one of those too? I think we should have one of these players, hopefully Scott, but I’d love for us to take the initiative against other good sides more than we have done in recent years. If we come up against a Barcelona who you just stand no chance if competing with on the ball, then fair enough, but the domestic rivals, not so much. At the very least not at home.
This is something I've wanted from United too (even when we were good). Ultimately I want our 3rd midfielder (assuming Pogba and Bruno are the other 2) to be literally the best player at retaining possession.

If you were to lineup Scott with our youth midfielders over the years

McTominay
Pearson
Gomes
Levitt
Garner

I would want the latter 3 to fulfill that role. The problem is those players are really tough to find or develop. But in terms of mold, that's the kind of midfielder I would want.
 

Rozay

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Yeah, I agree with that and to be fair, it's obvious that this is the direction Ole wants to take us in. I think that this team, with a couple quality additions and an effective pre-season, can show its' full growth next season.

My thoughts haven't changed on McTominay though, I believe he can be a great influence on the whole squad, both on and off the pitch.
Yea, I suspect he possibly can, although we’d never really know what influence he has off the pitch. My opinion on him has changed, as I think he’s far less useless than I once did. He can hold his own and do himself credit for sure. I don’t see him as a player we’d miss if he left tomorrow though, save for being shorter on numbers. What he offers is the easiest to replace. It’s literally been offered by Phil Neville in central midfield before, and we could find someone else to press and tackle just as easily. That said, while Phil Neville was doing it, he was adding value, and now that Scott is doing it, he too is adding value. In a collection of midfielders, it is certainly a skillset worth having. And it’s always easier for a fan to trust and identity with a player who is seemingly living his dream by playing for United. He will do what it takes, and those things are often intangibles.

As I’ve always said about Scott, I think he has qualities. I just think that his qualities are not his quality.
 

DoomSlayer

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As I’ve always said about Scott, I think he has qualities. I just think that his qualities are not his quality.
I generally get what you say, it's obviously perfectly fair to hold such an opinion. I found this very funny, though, it's quite an amusing description, even if it is a bit harsh. :lol:
 

eire-red

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From where he started to where he is now, I never thought he would come anywhere close to being a decent player, so what's to say he doesn't have another level to go to?

He's had some really good performances this season, against Chelsea in the Carabao Cup and at home to Arsenal spring to mind. He's not a world beater, but he's definitely a dependable squad player, and hopefully he can continue to improve.

He gets romanticized quite a lot as a passionate academy graduate, and hence overhyped. Naturally, when it's not quite working he can come in for a lot of criticism too, but at the moment I'm happy for him to be in and around the team. He brings an aggression that not many others in our midfielders can match, that can be very effective at times.
 

Untd55

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I agree, I have no idea why our DM constantly gets called out when we cant break sides down. Our attackers had all of the ball, you dont want Scott with the ball on the edge of the box over Pogba, Bruno etc.
Theyre just easy targets. Look at the Matic thread for the same arguments and about turns.
A few pages back he was getting praise for playing deeper and passing the ball to our forward players quicker. Now he's getting abuse because Bruno skied 20 shots into the stand
We weren't good defensively, either. So, if he can't defend or attack, what use is he? He is completely average on both sides.

The ten games before Matic came back into the first team, we conceded 14 goals. We conceded in every game.

Mctominay gets injured, so Matic is back playing with Fred. His next ten starts result in 6 clean sheets and only 7 conceded. The games were against tougher opposition overall, also.

It is not a coincidence. If Mctominay is our defensive midfielder, then he is a poor one.
 

MissKatie

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I quite like him. It's uncertain if he's ever going to be pushing the regular first team but he comes in and does a solid job.

I won't go to the Fletcher comparisons as we just don't know. But one can hope. Fletcher at his best was one of the best midfielders in Europe imo
 

cyberman

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We weren't good defensively, either. So, if he can't defend or attack, what use is he? He is completely average on both sides.

The ten games before Matic came back into the first team, we conceded 14 goals. We conceded in every game.

Mctominay gets injured, so Matic is back playing with Fred. His next ten starts result in 6 clean sheets and only 7 conceded. The games were against tougher opposition overall, also.

It is not a coincidence. If Mctominay is our defensive midfielder, then he is a poor one.
Thats too simple of a way to look at it.
Im a Matic fan, I stick up for him on here but I just checked Scotts stats and we have 6 clean sheets in his last 10 games. 3 of the 4 goals conceded are keeper howlers.
He missed Burnley, Arsenal, City and Liverpool when Matic replaced him and we were completely over ran in midfield.
Look, we are a working progress and teams do concede. Its just disingenuous to pick out random bits of the season when the season has been a working progress as whole. The entire side is progrssing nicely as the season moves on.
 

Gum_gum

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I think we should play Scott over Fred because he's younger, physically superior and more likely to grab a goal/assist. Also, since they're a similar level, Scott could go on and be a good player whereas it took Fred a year to become the so so player he is (they are) and he probably won't be getting better
 

Andycoleno9

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If he starts we lose creativity in midfield. He is good for some games because he brings a lot of energy and is decent squad option but in most of games he should not be a starter.
 

slored1

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He's a poor man's Jordan Henderson. If he improves his passing and gets quicker in decision making he'll make a great box-to-box energetic player.
 

Sea-Cow

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I think Fred is already a similar player to what Fletcher was at his very best. Fred is a bit more talented, although Fletch had a little more goal threat. Barcelona would have walked round us in exactly the same way even if he played in 2009 though.

A less technical version of that sort of player? Sure, I agree that Scott could fulfil that role. It’s not the most difficult role to fill tbh, and most of what you require is good fitness and a good attitude. Scott has both of those.

That said, I would one day like to get to the level where we can play even good teams (big games) and not feel the reflex need to play one of these types of players. We have all the money and resources as any other big club. The ceding of control (with the ball) of matches before they start is something we’ve done more than I’d like over recent times. City would come to Old Trafford with De Bruyne and Silva in front of a DM and play us off the park. Barcelona would line up the same way against us as they would against Getafe. That instinct of needing someone to chase the ball all game because we are playing a ‘good team’ - like, aren’t we supposed to be one of those too? I think we should have one of these players, hopefully Scott, but I’d love for us to take the initiative against other good sides more than we have done in recent years. If we come up against a Barcelona who you just stand no chance if competing with on the ball, then fair enough, but the domestic rivals, not so much. At the very least not at home.
This is off topic, and I don't want to derail, but you summed up something that has been bothering me recently. And you said it very well.

People get defensive over our recent record against City, for example, but the set-up, tactics, organization, mindset always bothers me. No one could honestly say that we lined up, from the off, ready to go toe-to-toe with them. We sit back, concede possession, try to survive all the chances they create, and pray that one of our flash breaks can lead to something. Even at home. It bothers me, even when it ends up with a positive result.

But if you dare mention this you are always shouted down. "We squeaked out a win, with only 30% possession, so it must have worked!!" "Ole taught Pep a lesson!!" Etc etc
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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This is off topic, and I don't want to derail, but you summed up something that has been bothering me recently. And you said it very well.

People get defensive over our recent record against City, for example, but the set-up, tactics, organization, mindset always bothers me. No one could honestly say that we lined up, from the off, ready to go toe-to-toe with them. We sit back, concede possession, try to survive all the chances they create, and pray that one of our flash breaks can lead to something. Even at home. It bothers me, even when it ends up with a positive result.

But if you dare mention this you are always shouted down. "We squeaked out a win, with only 30% possession, so it must have worked!!" "Ole taught Pep a lesson!!" Etc etc
It's a smart move. If we tried to go toe to toe we would have lost. We're not good enough yet. But now that we have Bruno and Pogba I'd be very surprised if we bench any when facing a big side which means we would be playing with only one DM
 

Rozay

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This is off topic, and I don't want to derail, but you summed up something that has been bothering me recently. And you said it very well.

People get defensive over our recent record against City, for example, but the set-up, tactics, organization, mindset always bothers me. No one could honestly say that we lined up, from the off, ready to go toe-to-toe with them. We sit back, concede possession, try to survive all the chances they create, and pray that one of our flash breaks can lead to something. Even at home. It bothers me, even when it ends up with a positive result.

But if you dare mention this you are always shouted down. "We squeaked out a win, with only 30% possession, so it must have worked!!" "Ole taught Pep a lesson!!" Etc etc
Thanks.

And I don’t hold it against Ole for doing it. He is certainly worthy to be praised for winning tough games like that, and by clear use of a plan. But the plan is one that we needed to use because of the disparity in quality between both sides. My hope is that this doesn’t continue to be our plan when our team is ‘complete’, by Ole’s standards. Liverpool developed to the level where they starter taking City on a couple of years ago. It wasn’t always the case. I’m hopeful that is the direction we are going in, but at the time, especially with the injuries to quality players that we had; I don’t blame him for bot asking McTominay, Fred and Lingard to outpass City at the Etihad.
 
Brighton 0:3 Man Utd

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Scott has a lot of heart, he says all the right things but nights like tonight show his limitations. It was shocking how much we lost a grip in midfield after the subs. Nobody expects McTominay to be Paul Pogba but he just wasn't enough of a presence. Brighton had a good 10-15 minutes where they were really pressuring, making DeGea work and we just couldn't stop the ball coming back at us. Needs to make himself felt when the lads up against him are as happy with a bit of rough and tumble as he is. We have dropped so many silly points this season and our inability to keep a hold of a game we were winning 3-0, due to the quality we replaced our first XI midfielders with, again showed why.
 

Rish Sawhney

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I don't see what he did wrong tonight. We lost control of the midfield because we lost most of our pressing players from the front. Scott himself was quite tidy on the ball, had a couple of good runs, a few good really incisive passes and a decent shot.
 
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