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Rolaholic

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Pathetic thread.
Everyone going nuts over some weird stats anomaly

Oh but his XG says...
Quite sure the strong feelings arise from watching his 167 match appearances over 5 years for the club rather than a simple stat...
 

Skills

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I wonder this as well. Not comparing myself to professional football players, obviously, but I remember when playing school footie we went to the U18s from U16s I was called to train with the U18s. I'd been one of the three best players in my U16 team but it was immediately obvious that I wasn't ready and probably didn't have the speed of thought, feet (and dedication tbf!) to get there. They were very kind but I remember that feeling of being out of my depth. I do wonder whether pros like McT or Lingard feel that, or whether egos built over years insulate them.
I don't think it's right sticking Lingard in the same category as McTominay. We'd heard about Lingard for years before he finally broke through - he was quite obviously a good talent.

McTominay only broke through because he was Mourinho's pet project at United to fight against his reputation with young players.

Lingards a good talent but not good enough to play in his best position for a club of our stature (as a number 10 or a SS). McTominay's just a poor talent all-around, and we've desperately tried to convert him into a position where you can get away with having less ability (as a 6). However his ability/talent level is so low, it's still not worked out.
 

Chripper

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But you also have to remember that many on here have not seen MUFC dominate in midfield and dominate the opposition. All they've known is the likes of McFred
Personally, I've seen Ince, Robson, Keane, Scholes, Carrick, Fletcher, Scholes.

Can we flip the argument?

We could literally say it for every single position on the park:

We've seen full backs of the caliber of Irwin, Eva, Heinze and G.Neville, but now we have Telles, Dalot, Shaw and AWB.

We used to have brilliant centerbacks like Bruce, Pallister, Stam, Ferdinand, Vidic, now we have Maguire and Lindelof.

We used to have Kanchelskis, Giggle, now we have Rashford, Diallo and Elanga.

We used to have Ruud Van Nilstelooy, Cole, Cantona, Hughes, Yorke, Ole, Van Persie, now we have an ageing duo of Cavani and Ronaldo.

Singling out one individual is just plain insane. As a first XI we are a shadow of what we once were. Upgrading Scott McTominay isn't going to do anything. Upgrading any one player won't make a difference.

Bruno made a difference, for a brief period. But it's a case of root and branch, not one single branch.
 

jem

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End this misery. Please. I can’t stand the sight of him in our midfield. A midfielder who doesn’t have one single good thing about him other than the academy tag and that tag has become the sole reason we ended up in this predicament. Watching him play in the midfield makes me drool over ward prowse signing for us like he is prime Matthaus which he might be compared to Mctominay.

Absolute coward of a player who hides on the pitch in every game. I wouldn’t wish this kind of player even on our enemies. I would pick any of Gibson, Richardson, Eagles , Cleverly over him easily if i have to without a blink. He is the true definition of a nothing player. Playing with 10 men. A pointless and useless footballer. I really don’t want to see him again playing for us week in week out next season hopefully never. Just get rid.
I’m no fan but this is just stupidly over-the-top.
 

Red Rash

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Personally, I've seen Ince, Robson, Keane, Scholes, Carrick, Fletcher, Scholes.

Can we flip the argument?

We could literally say it for every single position on the park:

We've seen full backs of the caliber of Irwin, Eva, Heinze and G.Neville, but now we have Telles, Dalot, Shaw and AWB.

We used to have brilliant centerbacks like Bruce, Pallister, Stam, Ferdinand, Vidic, now we have Maguire and Lindelof.

We used to have Kanchelskis, Giggle, now we have Rashford, Diallo and Elanga.

We used to have Ruud Van Nilstelooy, Cole, Cantona, Hughes, Yorke, Ole, Van Persie, now we have an ageing duo of Cavani and Ronaldo.

Singling out one individual is just plain insane. As a first XI we are a shadow of what we once were. Upgrading Scott McTominay isn't going to do anything. Upgrading any one player won't make a difference.

Bruno made a difference, for a brief period. But it's a case of root and branch, not one single branch.
You conveniently left out Varane at CB :smirk:

I think it's clear to see that as a football team we are miles behind where we were in the Fergie years. That being said, I would suggest the gulf in quality between Keane, Ince, Scholes and Robson compared to McTominay is way wider than the other positions mentioned.

Also center midfield is arguably the most important position on the pitch.McTominay is just miles off the pace compared to what we need. A competent midfield duo and I think we would look massively better even if we didn't upgrade any other position.
 

MadDogg

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Upgrading Scott McTominay isn't going to do anything. Upgrading any one player won't make a difference.
Now this is absolutely ridiculous.

Upgrading one player isn't suddenly going to turn us into world-beaters. But saying it won't do anything and won't make any difference at all is laughable. Going from somebody who is probably relegation-fighting quality up to actually a top player will obviously make a difference. Even under Ole it would have, but I expect the difference will be even bigger under ETH who will be want more interplay and quickness of thought.
 

Pickle85

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I don't think it's right sticking Lingard in the same category as McTominay. We'd heard about Lingard for years before he finally broke through - he was quite obviously a good talent.

McTominay only broke through because he was Mourinho's pet project at United to fight against his reputation with young players.

Lingards a good talent but not good enough to play in his best position for a club of our stature (as a number 10 or a SS). McTominay's just a poor talent all-around, and we've desperately tried to convert him into a position where you can get away with having less ability (as a 6). However his ability/talent level is so low, it's still not worked out.
Agree with this broadly but the question i was trying to amplify is do players that just aren't good enough, know that they aren't good enough?
 

Chripper

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You conveniently left out Varane at CB :smirk:

I think it's clear to see that as a football team we are miles behind where we were in the Fergie years. That being said, I would suggest the gulf in quality between Keane, Ince, Scholes and Robson compared to McTominay is way wider than the other positions mentioned.

Also center midfield is arguably the most important position on the pitch.McTominay is just miles off the pace compared to what we need. A competent midfield duo and I think we would look massively better even if we didn't upgrade any other position.
You noticed that, huh? Damn! ;)

Maybe, but it's gradations. I mean, the equivalent of that list to compare with Lindelof is Rio. The gulf in class between those two is astronomical.

Is it, though? Look at modern football where teams build from the back. DDG kicks it 9 out of 10 times.

I'm not a McTominay fanboy, nor do I think that he's beyond reproach, but whilst his teammates aren't exactly pulling up trees and looking like stars, making McTominay stick out like a sore thumb, so I'm not throwing him under the bus.

I'm not going to throw any of them under the bus, for that exact reason. Plus, I'll begin judging the players when we have ETH in place.
 
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Chripper

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Now this is absolutely ridiculous.

Upgrading one player isn't suddenly going to turn us into world-beaters. But saying it won't do anything and won't make any difference at all is laughable. Going from somebody who is probably relegation-fighting quality up to actually a top player will obviously make a difference. Even under Ole it would have, but I expect the difference will be even bigger under ETH who will be want more interplay and quickness of thought.
Fine.

We upgraded Lindelof with Varane (World Cup x 1. European Cup x 4). He's 29. At the peak of his powers

If anything, the upgrade has made us worse.

people thought Pobga would've upgraded us. How did that work out? Sancho, too.

A lot of football fans have a misunderstanding of football. You could see that with the droolfest here when we brought Pogba back.
 
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Skills

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Agree with this broadly but the question i was trying to amplify is do players that just aren't good enough, know that they aren't good enough?
McTominay probably does tbh. Seems to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder whenever he seems to be questioned.

Jesse maybe not, but he probably does have enough reason to trick himself into believing he is or rather was good enough (FA cup winning goal, England regular for a while and his time at West Ham).
 

lex talionis

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Scotty is nowhere near good enough to be a regular starter for a club which aspires to lift major trophies, but I still think he has his uses as a squad player for us. Limited uses, without question, but uses nevertheless.
 

Son

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Fine.

We upgraded Lindelof with Varane (World Cup x 1. European Cup x 4). He's 29. At the peak of his powers

If anything, the upgrade has made us worse.

people thought Pobga would've upgraded us. How did that work out? Sancho, too.

A lot of football fans have a misunderstanding of football. You could see that with the droolfest here when we brought Pogba back.
Pogba has never been the main problem at United when he wants to play for us. He’s usually the last of our problems on the field.

You can’t call him a bad player because he didn’t want to be here his season. He’s obviously one of the best midfielders in the world still and has been for years putting in numbers for us.

His problems were his agent choice, flirting with other clubs and mainly injury record. Nothing else. He makes the odd mistake but then he does things that are unbelievable too so balances out.

Imagine if Pogba goes to PSG and they have Veratti and Marquinhos as his partners at CM he’d slice our current starting team to bits.
 
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Attila

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End this misery. Please. I can’t stand the sight of him in our midfield. A midfielder who doesn’t have one single good thing about him other than the academy tag and that tag has become the sole reason we ended up in this predicament. Watching him play in the midfield makes me drool over ward prowse signing for us like he is prime Matthaus which he might be compared to Mctominay.

Absolute coward of a player who hides on the pitch in every game. I wouldn’t wish this kind of player even on our enemies. I would pick any of Gibson, Richardson, Eagles , Cleverly over him easily if i have to without a blink. He is the true definition of a nothing player. Playing with 10 men. A pointless and useless footballer. I really don’t want to see him again playing for us week in week out next season hopefully never. Just get rid.
He's never going to leave as long as Ferguson and Fletcher have a role at the club. He is Fergie's eyes and ears in the dressing room.
 

Bobski

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Made 43/45 passes that half and you still have comments about him hiding. Not that he has been brilliant or anything, a decent half, nothing special but his issues on the ball are made less of a problem by having a Mata type player in the team.
 

Chripper

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Pogba has never been the main problem at United when he wants to play for us. He’s usually the last of our problems on the field.

You can’t call him a bad player because he didn’t want to be here his season. He’s obviously one of the best midfielders in the world still and has been for years putting in numbers for us.
The highlighted part sounds like a massive problem, to me.

No one has ever said that he's a bad player. That's my point. The acquisition of Paul Pogba was an upgrade, and yet we didn't improve.
 

arnie_ni

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Made 43/45 passes that half and you still have comments about him hiding. Not that he has been brilliant or anything, a decent half, nothing special but his issues on the ball are made less of a problem by having a Mata type player in the team.
Haven't seen anyone say that today
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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Made 43/45 passes that half and you still have comments about him hiding. Not that he has been brilliant or anything, a decent half, nothing special but his issues on the ball are made less of a problem by having a Mata type player in the team.
Some nice passes through the lines, too.
 

Lecland07

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Made 43/45 passes that half and you still have comments about him hiding. Not that he has been brilliant or anything, a decent half, nothing special but his issues on the ball are made less of a problem by having a Mata type player in the team.
That is not great, to be honest. You are essentially saying he needs better players to make up for inadequacies. That will just hold those better players back.

It is pretty a minus offsetting a plus.
 

Art

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Made 43/45 passes that half and you still have comments about him hiding. Not that he has been brilliant or anything, a decent half, nothing special but his issues on the ball are made less of a problem by having a Mata type player in the team.
We're playing Brentford, mate.
 

Bobski

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That is not great, to be honest. You are essentially saying he needs better players to make up for inadequacies. That will just hold those better players back.

It is pretty a minus offsetting a plus.
No argument against the idea that we need to prioritize upgrading him this summer, can't be a starter next season, but I don't think we have used the squad at all well this season, too many selections that were never likely to work.
 

Chripper

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He's never going to leave as long as Ferguson and Fletcher have a role at the club. He is Fergie's eyes and ears in the dressing room.
Nice. An updated version of "Fletcher is Ferguson's son".

You know, for a club which has pretty much been built by two Scots (Busby and Ferguson), there does seem to be a bit of xenophobic undertones about United.

I mean, during Darren Fletcher's time we had unprecedented success, both domestic and abroad, and yet an element still found something to bitch about.
 

Son

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The highlighted part sounds like a massive problem, to me.

No one has ever said that he's a bad player. That's my point. The acquisition of Paul Pogba was an upgrade, and yet we didn't improve.
Cleverly was shocking I remember those days. Under Mou he did for his first few years and that run of hot form under Ole.

Him and Bruno have been our best outfield players by a mile when on form in recent memory.

We need to improve over players like McT. I don’t even know what he’s doing this game compared to Matic and Mata.

Our fullbacks are worse though so I’ll give him that.
 

Attila

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Nice. An updated version of "Fletcher is Ferguson's son".

You know, for a club which has pretty much been built by two Scots (Busby and Ferguson), there does seem to be a bit of xenophobic undertones about United.

I mean, during Darren Fletcher's time we had unprecedented success, both domestic and abroad, and yet an element still found something to bitch about.
I'm Scottish
 

Chripper

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That is not great, to be honest. You are essentially saying he needs better players to make up for inadequacies. That will just hold those better players back.

It is pretty a minus offsetting a plus.
Isn't that how football, and all team sports, works?

Let's put Ronaldo in the Norwich team and see how much he scores. They'd still finish bottom.

Apparently, Kalvin Phillips is being linked to us. Doesn't stop Leeds from potential relegation.
 

Champ

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So are we at the point where we realize it was a single game yet??
 

Idxomer

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He was ok overall, his positional game was as terrible as ever though.
 

edgecutter

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It's bad when our best midfielder is a past it matic and he's played his last game at Old Trafford
 

MadDogg

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Good first half. Indeed, for the first 20 minutes or so it looked like he'd seen the criticism of not getting on the ball enough and he was really making himself available and making good passes through the lines.

That slowly died off though, and second half was quite average.
 

Bobski

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Fecking awful tonight and all season to be honest
He was totally fine tonight. You can admit that a player you don't rate had a decent game without it being a statement that he has to start every game, or that it means that your general opinion of them is wrong.

Mediocre players can have good games, just judge games in isolation without bringing preconceptions into it.
 

The Viper

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There were instances where he could have passed the ball forward and create chance for Ronaldo. But he rather chose the safe sideways route. He has a good shot on him but apart from that what is he good at ? Next season, if he starts the amount of games he did this time around then we are doomed.
 

DJ_21

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The quicker we get an upgrade the better. We need a replacement with more vision and miles better passing. We can score so much more goals if we had the right players who can play simple passes and make the correct decisions.
 
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