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2021-22 Performances


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NoPace

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It'll be interesting to see if the new manager rates him. Everyone rumoured except Ten Hag seems like they'll want to buy a DM/CM and pair him with Fred instead of McTominay is my guess and I can't imagine we don't sign a DM/CM this summer.
 

roonster09

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It'll be interesting to see if the new manager rates him. Everyone rumoured except Ten Hag seems like they'll want to buy a DM/CM and pair him with Fred instead of McTominay is my guess and I can't imagine we don't sign a DM/CM this summer.
I think he will be sold, not immediately. Next manager will go with Fred and new CM.
 

Ekeke

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The one specific incident in the video that everyone is talking about is a mistake and poor play from McTominay. Fred gambles going towards the ball, it could have gone either way really. Either the ball breaks to the other side where the player is free to shoot and De Gea saves or maybe Fred could have done something to the player he wanted to close down. On this particular occasion the ball broke for a free man who could shoot and given there were other bodies around the player Fred was running towards it probably would have been better to hang out in a better position and look for free men, but its not that bad.

Other than that specific incident I felt McTominay had more good moments and less mistakes like the one in the video than Fred during the match overall. But Fred had 2 big moments in the goals. McTominay had 1 with a good pass

So probably about equal
 

arnie_ni

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Redcafe in a nutshell, repeat one thing often enough and it might turn out to be true. I think he was our best starting midfielder today. Better than his partner and better than his usual this season performance.
How was he better than Fred? Fred was the reason the scored both goals
 

NoPace

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I think he will be sold, not immediately. Next manager will go with Fred and new CM.
I could see this being the setup:

---------VDB/Fred----Bruno-----
-----------#6(McTominay)------

It won't surprise me if we only sign a DM this summer and Matic, Lingard and Pogba leave, and unless the new manager falls in love with Garner or Galbraith that's only 5 central midfielders for 3 spots which is the bare minimum. But I guess we could just keep Matic for his final season and let McTominay go, though again if we're spending 80M on Declan Rice this summer why not just keep McTominay unless some prem team is enamored with him like Leeds with James and offers like 20M for him. We'll still need a backup 6 after Matic leaves and Mctominay is cheap and big and maybe a new manager thinks they can improve him defensively and doesn't trust Fred as a 6 and only rates him in a double pivot pressing up.
 

Robbie Boy

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I think he's a pretty decent B2B midfielder tbh. I never, ever liked the position that Ole tried shoehorning him into. If, and when, we sort our midfield out, he can definitely play the role of a squad option.
 

Jacob

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Shouldn't be anywhere near defence. Physique is not enough. He could be very effective in the final third though.
 

roonster09

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I could see this being the setup:

---------VDB/Fred----Bruno-----
-----------#6(McTominay)------

It won't surprise me if we only sign a DM this summer and Matic, Lingard and Pogba leave, and unless the new manager falls in love with Garner or Galbraith that's only 5 central midfielders for 3 spots which is the bare minimum. But I guess we could just keep Matic for his final season and let McTominay go, though again if we're spending 80M on Declan Rice this summer why not just keep McTominay unless some prem team is enamored with him like Leeds with James and offers like 20M for him. We'll still need a backup 6 after Matic leaves and Mctominay is cheap and big and maybe a new manager thinks they can improve him defensively and doesn't trust Fred as a 6 and only rates him in a double pivot pressing up.
I don't think McT as 6 works, his off the ball movement to make himself available for passes is poor, which is very important for a midfielder, especially the deeper ones who will get lot of touches of the ball. I feel de beek is more suited to that role but his biggest strength is finding space in the box. Since we have Bruno, would like to see de beek as a 6.

Peak Matic would have been awesome.
 

wolvored

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At 25 he hasnt really kicked on and shouldnt be starting for Utd. I would look to sell. Maybe Newcastle would bid £15-20 mill for him.
 

NoPace

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I don't think McT as 6 works, his off the ball movement to make himself available for passes is poor, which is very important for a midfielder, especially the deeper ones who will get lot of touches of the ball. I feel de beek is more suited to that role but his biggest strength is finding space in the box. Since we have Bruno, would like to see de beek as a 6.

Peak Matic would have been awesome.
I hear ya, but we're gonna need a backup 6 who doesn't need to play a ton and McTominay has size, some experience and he's on the team. Are we really going to buy a very expensive #6 like Rice, Phillips, N'Didi or Neves and then turn around and spend 10-15M on a backup #6 for when he's unavailable?

We really should never have sold Daley Blind, it's good to have one player in the squad you can count on to play 3 or 4 of the back 6 positions and it would be fine if he was set to play 10 games as a 6 next summer backing up one of those guys.

Maybe if we sign Brozovic on a free I could see us spending money on a 20 year old DM we rate to come in and learn from him and be the backup, but that's rarely done at that position since it tends to be an older player's spot.

There's also the slim possibility our new manager is fine with Van De Beek, Lindelof or Fred as the backup 6.

I don't see Van De Beek as a 6. His movement going forward is his best quality and so few big teams play a #10 and 4 at the back (just Bayern and Milan really unless I'm forgetting someone) these days that I think the new manager will move Bruno deeper and over to the right for more of a 4-3-3, be it one like City/Barca/Ajax or one like Liverpool.
 

Walrus

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Fred won the ball back well for both goals, that cant be denied. The level of credit he has been getting though, is indicative of the levels his disciples go through to justify him as a player. Fred has a much more limited skillset than McTominay - he is a pure ballwinner who offers very little else.

I actually think McTominay has been one of the biggest victims of the 4-2-3-1 - playing a holding role is just the antithesis of his natural game. If we sign a proper DM, we will get the best out of McTominay, especially if we transition away from 4-2-3-1 into more of a 4-3-3 (not sure what that means for Bruno though). Fred functions better in the double pivot since he is an out-and-out ballwinner, which is one of the things you typically want in that midfield setup.

-------DM
McT ------ Donny/Bruno

for me that is a good and balanced midfield.
 

RUCK4444

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Fred won the ball back well for both goals, that cant be denied. The level of credit he has been getting though, is indicative of the levels his disciples go through to justify him as a player. Fred has a much more limited skillset than McTominay - he is a pure ballwinner who offers very little else.

I actually think McTominay has been one of the biggest victims of the 4-2-3-1 - playing a holding role is just the antithesis of his natural game. If we sign a proper DM, we will get the best out of McTominay, especially if we transition away from 4-2-3-1 into more of a 4-3-3 (not sure what that means for Bruno though). Fred functions better in the double pivot since he is an out-and-out ballwinner, which is one of the things you typically want in that midfield setup.

-------DM
McT ------ Donny/Bruno

for me that is a good and balanced midfield.
I see it totally differently. Fred is at least a specialist at something, winning the ball and turning over possession, springing us forward is a much better asset in itself than anything Scott brings. Fred is also arguably more progressive with his passing, always looks forwards particularly after winning the ball.

Scott on the other hand doesn't really have a stand out trait, he's like a very limited Matic how he plays for us currently. There's a good analysis video posted previously that shows he improves when further up the pitch (where he played as a youngster), which could be why he's not hitting another gear for us where he's playing in the pivot, however even if he is better further up the pitch that doesn't really help us in our formation does it? Donny would be better further up the pitch and I'm sure Fred would like the freedom of playing as a box to box like he did at previous clubs, but with Bruno on the pitch and with teams walking through our midfield it's not going to happen.

I think Scott comes to life when the game is an uncontrolled battle, end to end, like the games against Leeds where he has played well as an all action midfielder but again that's not what we really need. I dunno, just think we've hit Scott's limit in what he can bring to the table for a club that needs to improve primarily in midfield. And I've posted before that I would select Fred ahead of Scott every day of the week.
 

Fortitude

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As I've said before in this thread: McTominay's biggest problem is we're forcing him to be a player he isn't really and doesn't understand how to be. When you force a player whose instincts oppose the role, you're going to get constant reminders of that with the errors he makes, be it positionally, instinctive awareness of where he is or is supposed to be and in what he attempts to do on the ball in precarious positions.

McTominay's an offensive player who we've tried to force into a box-to-box, or even worse, a defensive role because he's 'big, tall and insert generic physical attributes supposedly associated with those roles.'

Essentially, he gets set up to fail because it's not a surprise he falls short when any nuance and know-how is prequisite. That's not to say he's good enough to take up an offensive role, just that if you're going to force him into any last line of defence role in midfield, he's going to struggle. The only way this could have been avoided would have been with some proper and intensive coaching, and even then, that is no guarantee you're going to change a players mindset and makeup on the fundamental level.

When it's said he's 'nowhere near good enough', I often think it's not fair on him because he's a squaddie at best, and if we'd recruited correctly, him coming off the bench with his powerful running and shooting, he would perhaps be perceived differently than the defensive-minded CM starter who was never that in the first place who isn't good enough to be at the club in any capacity.

Once we moved away from him being the runner sweeper-upper behind Fred, dealing with fires way up the pitch, he was doomed to fail. If there's one thing he can do is ball chase aggressively in behind a primary runner. It doesn't require the intricacies of what top class two-way CM's do and takes the onus off him having to think as that's left for others to do in and around him.

We should never have been in a position where we were reliant on him sitting or being an anchor in the first place, and in that case, you reap what you sow.
 

arnie_ni

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Fred was the reason why we scored a lob from the edge of the box and another screamer in the top corner? A bit of an exaggeration maybe?
None at all, he won't the ball back in both instances. Ronaldos goal was one touch after Fred's tackle, and he started the counter on the second after winning the ball.

For the record, incase you think I'm playing some sort of favouritism, go and read my posts on Fred, I'm not a fan, at all.
 

Kostov

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None at all, he won't the ball back in both instances. Ronaldos goal was one touch after Fred's tackle, and he started the counter on the second after winning the ball.

For the record, incase you think I'm playing some sort of favouritism, go and read my posts on Fred, I'm not a fan, at all.
As far as I can remember he didn't win the ball in both instances, he did a good press for the first one, Capoue lost the ball which fell to Ronaldo, who a lob after what I describe a big feck up by the GK and Capoue. And the second goal he did win the ball played a good touch and we played couple of good passes after which Sancho was left at the edge of the box to score a screamer.

My point is, don't exaggerate very small pieces of midfield play. IMO Scott was better on the night between the 2, both had similar passing stats, which tell feck all about the quality of the their passing game, since both pass it safe with zero creative intent, as soon as they do they feck up in shambolic fashion. I remember Scott doing such a stupid pass/cross attempt, as did Fred and also there was that Maguire "incident" when Maguire was unhappy with how Fred was passing. My point being, they were both similar performances, one of which was inflated by the roles in the goal, while the other is crucified and how he is at fault for the first one being what he always is.

Both were pretty average at best, people love to get overboard, and then are shocked when for the same performances we achieve feck all, often lose or draw.
 

Lecland07

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As far as I can remember he didn't win the ball in both instances, he did a good press for the first one, Capoue lost the ball which fell to Ronaldo, who a lob after what I describe a big feck up by the GK and Capoue. And the second goal he did win the ball played a good touch and we played couple of good passes after which Sancho was left at the edge of the box to score a screamer.

My point is, don't exaggerate very small pieces of midfield play. IMO Scott was better on the night between the 2, both had similar passing stats, which tell feck all about the quality of the their passing game, since both pass it safe with zero creative intent, as soon as they do they feck up in shambolic fashion. I remember Scott doing such a stupid pass/cross attempt, as did Fred and also there was that Maguire "incident" when Maguire was unhappy with how Fred was passing. My point being, they were both similar performances, one of which was inflated by the roles in the goal, while the other is crucified and how he is at fault for the first one being what he always is.

Both were pretty average at best, people love to get overboard, and then are shocked when for the same performances we achieve feck all, often lose or draw.
The reason why Capoue lost the ball is because Fred pressed him into it. No press, no loss of possession.

Capoue didn't mess up. The goalkeeper passed it into a position made dangerous by Fred's press.

In the end, take out Fred's contribution and we don't score either goal. And, resultantly, we don't win.

Those two moments alone make Fred's performance much better than McTominay.
 

Walrus

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One thing I will say with the news of the Rangnick appointment breaking - I imagine Rangnick will absolutely love Fred, and we could see massive improvements. As a staunch McTominay fan, I think Scott will need to up his game in terms of movement and work rate if he wants to keep his place under Ralf.
 

Poborsky's hair

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You're probably being presumptuous and ill-mannered with your words.

Were you watching Fletcher's developing years in the senior team? He was mostly making sideway passes in a struggling side, but was rarely dropped when fit, hence the label Fergie's son. People were giving him the same flak as they are McT.

That he rose above it and developed well does not detract from the similar level of criticism both players face, which was my point. Otherwise one can make the same argument about Cleverley and Gibson being different types of players too.

P.S. I was in the pro-Fletcher camp during those dark days.
Sorry but everyone who knows a bit about football knows that Fletcher was a superb ball winner, and the best defensive midfielder we had since Roy Keane, his goal contributions were nice additions too and occasionally you could see his passing was good too.

But of course he wasn't very industrious because the instructions were clear having players like Carrick and Scholes next to him for many years, to play it quick and more simple. In his early years I heavily criticised him for that too but his defensive skills totally made him irreplacable in the highly technical team we had over years.

But I bet you and others just go and criticise world class players like N'golo Kanté in the other threads who can btw dream about passing Fletcher had. Football is a team game not a sum of world class players on Fifa team sheet like unfortunately still a lot of fans think. Without those defensive cogs, the teams are winning nothing.

I was even reading in the other thread that Fred the other night had nice too interceptions but otherwise was meh because his passing was basic and couldn't create anything. Jeezus fecking christ. Without those two turnovers we are going to no attack, this counts as an assits itself, a goal creating opportunity. The ability to win the ball further or deeper in field is as important as a goal or assist itself, some players are here to finish the goal, some can open up packed defenses with a pass, some provide a run to stretch the play, some give you even the opportunities to do so by winning the ball.

And to those still dumb fans who think a player one just play quick sideway pass without doing anything hopefully RR can show how important it is to appreciate the defensive side of the game. The higher up the pitch you win the ball the better chance you have to open it and score because less players remain to defend. It is so simple it's baffling people don't understand that and want one player to do the defending and have the same passing range as fecking Pogba, yeah that goal when Fred win the ball and quickly passed it to another player, albeit a bit sideways was a very slow and ugly goal -vintage United counter attacking goal. And that's what Fletcher did very well too, even though in a slightly different set up..

But yeah I remember the hard first few years when Fergie believed Fletch to come good when most of the fans spat on him seeing him on the teamsheet, including me.
 

Poborsky's hair

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As far as I can remember he didn't win the ball in both instances, he did a good press for the first one, Capoue lost the ball which fell to Ronaldo, who a lob after what I describe a big feck up by the GK and Capoue. And the second goal he did win the ball played a good touch and we played couple of good passes after which Sancho was left at the edge of the box to score a screamer.

My point is, don't exaggerate very small pieces of midfield play. IMO Scott was better on the night between the 2, both had similar passing stats, which tell feck all about the quality of the their passing game, since both pass it safe with zero creative intent, as soon as they do they feck up in shambolic fashion. I remember Scott doing such a stupid pass/cross attempt, as did Fred and also there was that Maguire "incident" when Maguire was unhappy with how Fred was passing. My point being, they were both similar performances, one of which was inflated by the roles in the goal, while the other is crucified and how he is at fault for the first one being what he always is.

Both were pretty average at best, people love to get overboard, and then are shocked when for the same performances we achieve feck all, often lose or draw.
You earned the first ignore, can't read this shite anymore. Absolutely pathetic logic and analysis. He didn't win the ball, my word, the art of not giving credit by @Kostov. It's an art really, write a book about it but you really don't get football, do you?
 

romufc

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McTominay might be the one player along with AWB that do not feature under this manager. They are in for a shock.
 

Kostov

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Since there is such a big fuss about my opinion that McT was our best mf of the day, I tried to find some highlight of his performance, and while It does not show the entire picture, it also shows that he was hardly as shocking as some love to portray it. There is also a video of VdB but no Fred. Can someone provide similar video from the brazilian?
 
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One thing I will say with the news of the Rangnick appointment breaking - I imagine Rangnick will absolutely love Fred, and we could see massive improvements. As a staunch McTominay fan, I think Scott will need to up his game in terms of movement and work rate if he wants to keep his place under Ralf.
Its not even so much about workrate, he needs to engage his brain more when he has the ball. He needs to let the ball do the work for him, being more intelligent with his passing is what he needs to work on.
 

AltiUn

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Since there is such a big fuss about my opinion that McT was our best mf of the day, I tried to find some highlight of his performance, and while It does not show the entire picture, it also shows that he was hardly as shocking as some love to portray it. There is also a video of VdB but no Fred. Can someone provide similar video from the brazilian?
It was, like most of his performances, a mixed bag. He did some half decent stuff, rarely though, but then was a passenger for the rest of the game. I don't think your opinion on his performance was unreasonable.
 

roonster09

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Since there is such a big fuss about my opinion that McT was our best mf of the day, I tried to find some highlight of his performance, and while It does not show the entire picture, it also shows that he was hardly as shocking as some love to portray it. There is also a video of VdB but no Fred. Can someone provide similar video from the brazilian?
 

Kostov

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It was, like most of his performances, a mixed bag. He did some half decent stuff, rarely though, but then was a passenger for the rest of the game. I don't think your opinion on his performance was unreasonable.
Unlike his shocking displays we've seen this season, I though there was some improvements, while it still falls short of what should be expected. I also think the others were even worse, which leads to the backlash from mainly the posters who though Fred had a "good game" and the praising of what imo was a worse performance inflated by an obvious role of the Brazilian in the first goal.
 

Kostov

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Maybe I am wrong but I don’t think that’s all his touches/passes. I remember a situation he was caught on the ball ( I think Ronaldo intervened and recovered the ball quickly) and one or two bad passes. The McT video had one similar shocking “attempt” pass cross which was included unlike in this video of Fred.
 

roonster09

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Maybe I am wrong but I don’t think that’s all his touches/passes. I remember a situation he was caught on the ball ( I think Ronaldo intervened and recovered the ball quickly) and one or two bad passes. The McT video had one similar shocking “attempt” pass cross which was included unlike in this video of Fred.
Its not, for some reasons twitter account posts less than 2 min videos and it covers only good stuff.
 

Lecland07

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McTominay is just simply not as good. He is lacking in every department. Think his days are numbered under Ragnick and in the future to come.
 

Kostov

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McTominay is just simply not as good. He is lacking in every department. Think his days are numbered under Ragnick.
McT video was 3 minutes actually, not that it says much. :lol:

Couple of incisive passes, but mainly safe and easy as you can expect. Few good passes like the one in the build up for the second goal, seemed so laboured an barely got through to the receiver.

EDIT: McTominay is not good enough I don't want to dispute that, and if Ragnick is half as astute of a manager as he is described he will have plenty on his hands with the midfield he is about to get.
 

Lecland07

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McT video was 3 minutes actually, not that it says much. :lol:

Couple of incisive passes, but mainly safe and easy as you can expect. Few good passes like the one in the build up for the second goal, seemed so laboured an barely got through to the receiver.

EDIT: McTominay is not good enough I don't want to dispute that, and if Ragnick is half as astute of a manager as he is described he will have plenty on his hands with the midfield he is about to get.
Yes, I noticed and corrected my post, but a fraction too late.

Hopefully, we actually see a few midfielders actually coming in in the future. It has been too long.
 

Adam-Utd

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Maybe I am wrong but I don’t think that’s all his touches/passes. I remember a situation he was caught on the ball ( I think Ronaldo intervened and recovered the ball quickly) and one or two bad passes. The McT video had one similar shocking “attempt” pass cross which was included unlike in this video of Fred.
That's not all of Mctominays touches either, they never show the 'bad' touches or misplaced passes.

While across 90 minutes he obviously did some good things, a lot of the passes shown here are square safe passes or putting his team mates under no pressure.

He did get better in the 2nd half it has to be said, but that's probably more from Vilarreal getting tired and not being able to press as hard.