Yeah agree. Especially the bolded.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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He was excellent
Broke up lots of play
Broke up lots of play
Does Jamie Carragher fall into all of those 3 groups? Because that's who awarded him the Motm award.
Out of interest what are the pre progressive days of football?
The days in English football when very technically limited but hardworking players filled the leagues and were the heroes of the day is what I'd consider the pre progressive age. This changed in a big way in the 90s when more managers from the continent were getting jobs in England and leaving their mark on the game with new and varied approaches to football management
Often ours, unfortunately.
Let's face it Carragher named him MOTM because he stuck his head in the way of the ball and showed he has heart or something.
He was his usual self today, working to break up play, moving the ball forward and all the other things Fred does much better than he does.
With all our other players you can see what they're good at, even if they've been horribly coached and mis-used for the last few years. With McTominay though, he's not really that good at anything, just average all round. He's my number one pick to get moved on under a new manager.
He was his usual self today, working to break up play, moving the ball forward and all the other things Fred does much better than he does.
With all our other players you can see what they're good at, even if they've been horribly coached and mis-used for the last few years. With McTominay though, he's not really that good at anything, just average all round. He's my number one pick to get moved on under a new manager.
Rashford was incredibly lazy and anonymous. Barely realised he was playing at half time. He had a very brief good patch (with the rest of the team) after the goal - which he did his best to mess up by being offside the entire time, so forcing Sancho to effectively go it alone rather than being able to square it for a tap-in.
Bruno was Bruno. Worked hard, capable of magic, but also very sloppy in possession and prone to taking risks when he shouldnt - essentially a hero complex of trying to do it all himself. There have been times when we have needed that, but as a team we need to move past it.
Sancho did well for the goal. He was shocking in the first half - giving away possession constantly and just looking on a different wavelength to the rest of the team. Did better in the second half, but hardly what I would call a great performance. For me, Sancho's best moments have always come through linking up with Donny - we should be playing them together where possible.
He's like an elephant, he's giving freekicks away for fun and sometimes it's good to have a commited player like this but MOTM 
WTF really, he offered so little except that in fact, he was still subpar with better second second half and shocking first. The bias continues. Some poeple just like him because he just works hard and always goes for a tackle, instead if he workd on his positioning and played it smarter and stopped putting our team under pressure with his stupid fouls. Just look at the difference with Fred, he is much cleaner tackler despite his slighter built, that gives us some great chances to counter, whereas we have to defend and defend when McTominay trips overevery player in front of him including our players..
Incredbile VdB seemingly getting into a good form and never gets chance to play deep for some strange reason and this guys still plays because he's scottish and Sir Alex once tapped him on the back and publicly loves him. There's nothing bad about backing and praising a player from your own country but we need someone with overview and unbiased view of the situation. Some players will be finished in no time you will see.
WTF really, he offered so little except that in fact, he was still subpar with better second second half and shocking first. The bias continues. Some poeple just like him because he just works hard and always goes for a tackle, instead if he workd on his positioning and played it smarter and stopped putting our team under pressure with his stupid fouls. Just look at the difference with Fred, he is much cleaner tackler despite his slighter built, that gives us some great chances to counter, whereas we have to defend and defend when McTominay trips overevery player in front of him including our players..Incredbile VdB seemingly getting into a good form and never gets chance to play deep for some strange reason and this guys still plays because he's scottish and Sir Alex once tapped him on the back and publicly loves him. There's nothing bad about backing and praising a player from your own country but we need someone with overview and unbiased view of the situation. Some players will be finished in no time you will see.
Fair enough mate I'd largely agree, I was worried you meant 5-10 years ago , which I've read on here.
Agreed.
Not likely though!
He was good today
Sensible, balanced post
Well done
This is clearly a wind up. He was OK second half but still was the worst of our 3 CMs for the game overall. Matic and his loose headers wasn't far in front but he at least did a Cruyff turn
I don't agree with that. And he got the MOTM...This is clearly a wind up. He was OK second half but still was the worst of our 3 CMs for the game overall. Matic and his loose headers wasn't far in front but he at least did a Cruyff turn
I really wish he was a good midfielder. Imagine him having the skill and know-how that Matic has to be bulletproof in possession. You'd give him the ball in any position and he wouldn't primitively pass it back because he's actually got the ability to get himself out of trouble and pass forward.
There was a moment in the game where he got the ball while marked and he went full McTominay mode; panicked, dribbled awkwardly, and then passed it back when Fred was just standing at the center circle completely unmarked ready to get the ball and feed it into Rashford.
It's those moments that hurt us. He doesn't have that around the corner vision Carrick and Scholes had. He's still too fussed with figuring his feet out.
There was a moment in the game where he got the ball while marked and he went full McTominay mode; panicked, dribbled awkwardly, and then passed it back when Fred was just standing at the center circle completely unmarked ready to get the ball and feed it into Rashford.
It's those moments that hurt us. He doesn't have that around the corner vision Carrick and Scholes had. He's still too fussed with figuring his feet out.
Off the ball decent, on the ball awful.
Even his own teammates were getting frustrated with the amount of times he was passing backwards instead of passing through the lines. Will need to improve big time if he wants to get into Rangnicks teams, he’ll want forward passes to start counters not back passes to centre backs for safe possession.
We do need another midfielder, Scott is a decent backup but not good enough to start in this team, nowhere near enough quality on the ball.
Even his own teammates were getting frustrated with the amount of times he was passing backwards instead of passing through the lines. Will need to improve big time if he wants to get into Rangnicks teams, he’ll want forward passes to start counters not back passes to centre backs for safe possession.
We do need another midfielder, Scott is a decent backup but not good enough to start in this team, nowhere near enough quality on the ball.
Not awful, not amazing. Disciplined performance broke up play well and plugged holes in the defence, stopped Chelsea overloading on there left hand side on the most part.
Could of been better and braver with the ball no doubt about that but at the very least he wasn't given the ball away for fun and he did play a few passes forward and through the lines.
Sometimes when your under so much pressure and nothing is sticking with the front three particuly bruno and rashford then going sideways and backwards and just keeping the ball for a little while is perfectly fine. We needed that yesterday at times.
Could of been better and braver with the ball no doubt about that but at the very least he wasn't given the ball away for fun and he did play a few passes forward and through the lines.
Sometimes when your under so much pressure and nothing is sticking with the front three particuly bruno and rashford then going sideways and backwards and just keeping the ball for a little while is perfectly fine. We needed that yesterday at times.
he had so much opportunity to pass it forward but takes too long and then pass it sideways or backwards. Breaking up play a couple of times is something you would expect from any player. People think a midfield player dribbling is good. No he needs to pass it forward instead of trying to dribble and get bogged down. yes I agree that the forwards were poor yesterday and he did run back on our right side to defend. But he simply is not good enough at this level.
This place is so predictable. And it's laughable the same posters criticizing and slating McT for getting MoTM, are the ones that think Fred was amazing, the guy had passing accuracy of 82%, and you have posters comparing him to being a slightly more technical version of Kante.
And I though Fred was just as solid and would give the same rating of 6/10 to both.
To be fair, I am as pro McTominay/anti-Fred as they come, but I still thought the latter had a good game. Not brilliant, but good. It’s fairly easy to see why of course - he was given license to basically be a free roaming ball winner, charging about all over the place without needing to care about positioning. With Bruno as a false 9, and Matic/Scott behind him, it felt like the team was almost set up for Fred. Still think he contributes nothing in the final third and his passing is rubbish though.This place is so predictable. And it's laughable the same posters criticizing and slating McT for getting MoTM, are the ones that think Fred was amazing, the guy had passing accuracy of 82%, and you have posters comparing him to being a slightly more technical version of Kante.
And I though Fred was just as solid and would give the same rating of 6/10 to both.
I don’t think McTominay was MotM (I gave it to De Gea), but the fact that he got it from the pundits should at least be a clue to some on here that he maybe wasn’t quite as bad as they would like to believe. Doesn’t matter though, the Caf has made up its mind.
I think McTominay and Fred could both flourish under Rangnick with some proper coaching. It’s going to be interesting to see what happens.
I thought his defensive work, sliding into a back 3, was pretty tight. His best performances when Utd have the ball, from what I remember, are games like the one against Leeds where he can maraud forward to the edge of the area. He wasn't going to be able to do that yesterday.
I think its not unusual for the caf to scapegoat McTominay.
Alot of people didn't understand the game plan, which is why he is being criticised for his performance.
His job was to break up play, help the team stay compact and marshal the space between lindelof and AWB, which I think he did really well on.
Yes, he struggled to get the ball forward, who didn;t though? We had lack of options because of our set up, he did his job which is why we got a result.
Put what some fans say as a progressor in pogba, we lose that game.
I am sure many would say the same for me, while I think I am pretty harsh on both of them, because they probably pay the highest price for the team being undercoached and having no definitive system, and also having no prime CDM. I though they both were better than their usual showings from this season, yet I would not give them anything more than a 6. Scott for being absolutely stupid and giving away needless fouls, his conservative passing and to Fred for being absolutely useless on the ball 80% of the time. He gave a peach of a pass to Sancho that should been an assist, but he tried couple of them and probably that was his only successful one. Fred looks much tidier when he does not have too much time to think and plays it fast and simple, but that also contradicts with the supposed free role in which he would succeed under a better manager, since I think you can not only play that simple passes and be good enough to contribute at this level. McT on the other hand, can carry the ball better and sometimes dribble successfully, but is just as inconsistent as the other one. Ultimately they both are average footballers and whoever means to make this team work, will need to bring better players.
Very well said, there is so much slating of McT for not passing progressively enough when nobody could, Bruno was awful, Matic made some appalling decision that you would not expect from a veteran CDM, and Fred was Fred, apart from that pass to Sancho what other progressive pass did he manage for example? And McT played with obvious defensive responsibilities, moving between Lindelof and AWB on regular, while the other had more freedom going forward.
Ultimately I think you can not blame all of it on the players, we were playing a much better, properly coached team, that suffocated our lame attempts of forward play.
I disagree and I think that’s a very simplistic way of looking at it especially when he was getting caught out plenty of times in his role. He had Fred shouting at him trying to organise him positionally as he was having trouble and couldn’t work out who he was picking up between he and Bissaka and at times did nothing but let his man go.
He certainly did come to grips with it later on and in all honestly I love his general mentality of up for a battle. I wish more of our players had that but to me he has a lot more issues than just not good at progressing the ball.
Yesterday was simply ridiculous how many times he shirked an easy ball through the lines or even to the side just to create an angle which we had players in position to take advantage of.
Also this slipping in to the defence to make it a back 3 is nothing new and he’s been doing it in certain games since last season.
It is a weird one as like has been said when he was sitting back in that 3 he got his head on things and made some blocks. However there were so many other aspects of his game that for me didn’t equate to as good a performance as Carragher thinks it was.
He was excellent yesterday. Clearly given a role and carried it out effectively. The work in transition was poor from everyone and will need coaching up. McTominay seems much more receptive than most when it comes to coaches instructions so I'd imagine he'll seriously improve. He's so much better than given credit for on here.
Ralf is going to love him and it will drive this place insane.
Ralf is going to love him and it will drive this place insane.
Also, we all complain that we start McFred most games but honestly, if we were to pick a team, we would probably pick them too. Its not that I think McT is amazing, he is a valuable squad player but we just don't have good CDM's.
The points you put forward are fine, but like you say, they don't equate to MOTM, neither do they equate to what the caf are saying about him too.
He done his job, if every player in this team done their jobs, we wouldn't be in this situation now.
McT IMO is a good player that can do jobs in games, when playing Chelsea or the like but when we go into games against lower opp, we will need better to progress the ball.
I dont think he's as bad as people make him to be.
Bang average. He's like a CB in midfield.
This is kind of my hope with McT. Despite his limitations, I have a soft spot for him. I think his biggest weaknesses are his positioning and his decision-making, which are not small things, but are things that can be worked on. If he can be coached then I think that Rangnick will be able to use his attributes pretty well.He was excellent yesterday. Clearly given a role and carried it out effectively. The work in transition was poor from everyone and will need coaching up. McTominay seems much more receptive than most when it comes to coaches instructions so I'd imagine he'll seriously improve. He's so much better than given credit for on here.
Ralf is going to love him and it will drive this place insane.
This is the problem with stats...using McTom's pass completion stat as a way to bolster the impression that he had a good game is misleading. He has a 90%+ pass accuracy because he doesn't do anything remotely progressive with the ball. He is forever playing sideways and backwards and is a major reason why we lack fluidity in the middle of the park and can't play through the lines. Leon Britten and Tom Cleverly regularly had stellar pass completion percentages but it doesn't make them good enough for United. I like McTom - he'll clearly put his body on the line and the effort is never lacking. He's just not good enough, technically, to be starting for a side with title winning aspirations.This place is so predictable. And it's laughable the same posters criticizing and slating McT for getting MoTM, are the ones that think Fred was amazing, the guy had passing accuracy of 82%, and you have posters comparing him to being a slightly more technical version of Kante.
And I though Fred was just as solid and would give the same rating of 6/10 to both.
Where did I do that exactly? I only pointed out that our more "progressive" CM and supposedly the guy that was better had a shitty pass accuracy stat, and I would also point out that Fred does the same sideways and backwards passes just as much as McT. Yes Fred tried to pass a bit more creative and here you have the result at show, apart from that good pass to Sancho I think Fred failed miserably to contribute to anything going forward and did plenty of sideways in simple passing on his own, yet you choose to describe one of them as the reason why we lack fluidity in the middle of the park and no mention of the other one's contribution or the lack of it. I am sure if instructed McT would also try and be more adventurous, but would also fail, because just like Fred he is not good enough, and I think McT is a better long passer than Fred.
So I don't know what point you're trying to make with this? More progressive passers are likely to have lower accuracy - it doesn't take a genius to work that out.
I think Fred contributed much more going forward than McT did - he got into some decent positions in the final third and at least tried to play forward when he could (I don't have the stats but it's clear to anyone with eyes that he was passing forward much more than Scott). He was also much better at winning the ball from the opposition and winning loose balls, so it's not like his only role in the side was to be creative by any means.
I've seen nothing from McT to justify your faith in the second bolded comment. My own feeling is that he'd continue to play safe and keep it simple, as he knows he's not got it in his locker to do much else. Again, good lad and a good pro but we need better. For what it's worth, I also think we need to improve upon Fred, for sure, though I think that need is less urgent.
There were definitely times yesterday when McTominay picked the wrong pass and couldve been more progressive. That sad, his passing in general is nowhere near as bad as is made out - he regularly likes to fizz the ball in to the forwards, and he is generally composed enough on the ball that he will look for the right pass rather than just lumping it. I consider him a better and more progressive passer than Fred for the most part, who frequently underhits/overhits/mishits his passes and puts the recipient in trouble or loses the momentum of an attack.
Ultimately it is not Scott's job to be a playmaker, its just that we dont really have anyone with that skillset that we can play at DM, so the lack of creativity from midfield becomes more apparent. It often used to end up as Maguire needing to take the initiative and look for the more searching passes. Rangnick has spoken about the importance of transition, and that is definitely an area we need to improve - we need a DM who can play that quarterback role and dictate tempo. Neither McTominay nor Fred are ever likely to be that player, but both can do well if given a bit more freedom. Personally I see McTominay as an attacking #8 who can bring the ball out of defense/midfield and contribute in the final third. We havent gotten to see much of that this season because he has been asked to play a more defensive role - clearly the coaches trust him and in his ability to listen to tactical intstruction.
Ultimately it is not Scott's job to be a playmaker, its just that we dont really have anyone with that skillset that we can play at DM, so the lack of creativity from midfield becomes more apparent. It often used to end up as Maguire needing to take the initiative and look for the more searching passes. Rangnick has spoken about the importance of transition, and that is definitely an area we need to improve - we need a DM who can play that quarterback role and dictate tempo. Neither McTominay nor Fred are ever likely to be that player, but both can do well if given a bit more freedom. Personally I see McTominay as an attacking #8 who can bring the ball out of defense/midfield and contribute in the final third. We havent gotten to see much of that this season because he has been asked to play a more defensive role - clearly the coaches trust him and in his ability to listen to tactical intstruction.
He could play a Kevin Nolan role somewhere, Burnley or Wolves etc, he's no Kevin Nolan though
My point is he is hardly progressive, he passes simple and backwards just as much as McT, the moment he tries to do anything more creative he fails miserably. 82% passing is bad imo, for a CM, he had zero successful long passes according to stat I saw (but I remember he did a good pass to Sancho, which is probably classified as TB (through ball) the site is whoscored) so not sure what they classify as long balls. and I am sure it does not take a genius to work that out.
Here is a video of Fred's best moments posted in his thread. What did he do significant passing wise? Sideways and backwards, that one pass to Rashford he also fecked up, causing Rashford to lose momentum.
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I think he contributed feck all, on top of fecking up that gift from the GK, which we all expected to be fair. And not sure from where that winning the ball much more comes from? I remember McT winning lots of duels, had more tackles, while Fred has got more interceptions, McT has more clearances and blocks. And one thing you overlook all the time, yes I agree that Fred tried to be more creative, and I think it was instructions, however he failed and fecked up most often than not. He had lots of bad touches if I remember correctly too.
I have no faith in McT, I said if he is instructed he would try and play the same way, and fail because he does not have it in his locker, despite as I said I think he is a better long passer than Fred. I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, I really don't rate him.
This.
It's shocking to see posts here praising McTominay for his performance yesterday. Yes of course we parked the bus, but McTominay couldn't pass his way out of the back third to save his life. Credit the man with taking a shot to the face and persevering, but this was not the performance of a player anyone should be claiming was MOTM stuff.
Fred and Matic were vastly superior, but even the performance of those two yesterday wouldn't come anywhere close to raising the eyebrow of Pep, Klopp or Tuchel. We need to rebuild our midfield pronto or else we'll be scraping fourth place finishes for a very long time.
Wow!
This guy can do no right.
Incredible negativity, even when the guy, deservedly, gets MotM.
Incredible. Was it his brilliant attacking or defensive play that blew everyone else off the pitch?
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