Sekou Kone

pocco said:
Oh absolutely, but I was just making the age old point that nothing is guaranteed just yet. I was responding to the comments saying he should be starting in midfield for us etc. He looks nowhere near to me. I'd say he's potentially at the point where he could come off the bench and maybe start in lesser cup games if we weren't bothered about the result. I certainly don't think he's ready for the PL with any real responsibility other than small cameos.



See I really liked the look of Pogba at the U21 level and that's why it didn't surprise me when he went straight into the Juve team pretty much. But I don't think he ever quite hit the heights expected of him when he returned here. And obviously Ravel Morrison never got anywhere near in the end. I think both of them looked more 'ready', to me, than Kone currently. Which just highlights how far he has to go based on where he is right now. Who knows though, he may take to it well and get better when surrounded by better players. My gut instinct is that he will get a bit bullied by PL midfielders right now, the odd flash of his talent, but I think the speed of the game will see his bad decisions and heavy touches punished and he might wilt.
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You aren’t wrong. Kone looks a talent but he also looks miles off being ready in my opinion. James Garner looked better and more complete in the u21s than Kone does now, he also looked really good in the championship. He ended up getting a few appearances and then being sold for 15m. Kone looks at least a year behind where Garner was, and miles behind where players like Pogba, Morrison and Januzaj were.
 
if it was my choice I'd consider loaning him to a weaker league to guarantee game-time for maybe half a season or something

the championship I dunno, it just seems like a big big step up and he might struggle for minutes

excited to see how he develops I think he might just make it here
 
Moises Caicedo’s first European experience was at a relegated Belgian league side and people incessantly whine about not signing him.

Kone needs experience playing every week and Lausanne would be perfect. He coughs up possession in dangerous areas far too much even at u21s level that he’d be slaughtered in the Championship and risk getting benched for the rest of the season. EFL managers write off loan players within minutes. It’s too high risk and Kone just needs to play at this time.
 
TwoSheds said:
I think that's the point, Pogba could do it in flashes but then disappeared in games, largely down to lack of effort rather than physicality or inability. Kone is developing pretty rapidly and is certainly putting in the effort so, given he has a good level of talent himself, I'd back him to go a long way. Ravel and Pogba both demonstrated poor mentality to differing degrees right throughout their careers.
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Weirdly that’s how I’d describe Kone - good in flashes but goes missing too often. I don’t think Pogbas issue was necessarily effort but he had a very laid back style, which grated on people throughout his career. He wasn’t what they expected (the new vieira etc). Juve recognised this, put him in a midfield where others like Vidal and Marchisio did the donkey work, and allowed him to pull the strings. They saw he could do this based on what he was doing in our youth teams.

I doubt we’ll agree on this but I felt way more sure with Pogba than Kone. But that’s no criticism of Kone, but my point is that these posts asking for him to start in CM for us are extremely premature. And I think our coaches see this also, and that’s why he’s potentially going to Lausanne and not a tougher league.
 
simonhch said:
You aren’t wrong. Kone looks a talent but he also looks miles off being ready in my opinion. James Garner looked better and more complete in the u21s than Kone does now, he also looked really good in the championship. He ended up getting a few appearances and then being sold for 15m. Kone looks at least a year behind where Garner was, and miles behind where players like Pogba, Morrison and Januzaj were.
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Agreed, and Garner is another good shout. Probably a better example than Pogba, as he’s arguably less talented than Kone, but has that maturity to his game that meant he understood his role, his decision making was on point, he was safe in possession and could control midfield etc. Kone looks like he’s technically good, he’s good at carrying the ball and is tenacious etc, but he goes missing at times and makes bad decisions. This is what coaches look at when assessing whether it’s safe to play them at a higher level, where the margin for error is much finer.

He’s got that “erratic” style that skilful yet inexperienced/immature players have. He needs to go somewhere that these issues can be ironed out and he can tighten up his game a bit.
 
pocco said:
Weirdly that’s how I’d describe Kone - good in flashes but goes missing too often. I don’t think Pogbas issue was necessarily effort but he had a very laid back style, which grated on people throughout his career. He wasn’t what they expected (the new vieira etc). Juve recognised this, put him in a midfield where others like Vidal and Marchisio did the donkey work, and allowed him to pull the strings. They saw he could do this based on what he was doing in our youth teams.

I doubt we’ll agree on this but I felt way more sure with Pogba than Kone. But that’s no criticism of Kone, but my point is that these posts asking for him to start in CM for us are extremely premature. And I think our coaches see this also, and that’s why he’s potentially going to Lausanne and not a tougher league.
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Is that based on watching full games of him at youth level? I've only ever seen highlights and of course that is massively skewered but he seems like a player who likes to get stuck and involved in everything so that's surprising to hear.
 
pocco said:
Weirdly that’s how I’d describe Kone - good in flashes but goes missing too often. I don’t think Pogbas issue was necessarily effort but he had a very laid back style, which grated on people throughout his career. He wasn’t what they expected (the new vieira etc). Juve recognised this, put him in a midfield where others like Vidal and Marchisio did the donkey work, and allowed him to pull the strings. They saw he could do this based on what he was doing in our youth teams.

I doubt we’ll agree on this but I felt way more sure with Pogba than Kone. But that’s no criticism of Kone, but my point is that these posts asking for him to start in CM for us are extremely premature. And I think our coaches see this also, and that’s why he’s potentially going to Lausanne and not a tougher league.
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Agree with all of that except that it wasn't down to effort with Pogba. Perhaps effort is the wrong word and I should say focus, but that was the reason I doubted he'd ever be world class, and apart from one world cup for France I think I was right. Koné is significantly less talented, and definitely has a lot to learn positionally and in decision making, but I think he'll have a very good career because you can see he really wants to focus and learn, and he's obviously a talented player.

If Fergie had seen the drive/focus in Pogba then he'd have been in the first team and would never have needed to go to Italy to cut his teeth, so it's not just what I perceived at the time I think.
 
pocco said:
Weirdly that’s how I’d describe Kone - good in flashes but goes missing too often. I don’t think Pogbas issue was necessarily effort but he had a very laid back style, which grated on people throughout his career. He wasn’t what they expected (the new vieira etc). Juve recognised this, put him in a midfield where others like Vidal and Marchisio did the donkey work, and allowed him to pull the strings. They saw he could do this based on what he was doing in our youth teams.

I doubt we’ll agree on this but I felt way more sure with Pogba than Kone. But that’s no criticism of Kone, but my point is that these posts asking for him to start in CM for us are extremely premature. And I think our coaches see this also, and that’s why he’s potentially going to Lausanne and not a tougher league.
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I'd be stunned if anyone seriously thinks he's as good a talent as Pogba. He was captain of France in his age group before we even signed him

For me Kone has simply taken over what Dan Gore looked to be before his loans and injury problems. Another young midfielder with a bit more legs than Mainoo but without his strength and balance, which is why I think Mainoo got to play early.
 
Ekeke said:
I'd be stunned if anyone seriously thinks he's as good a talent as Pogba. He was captain of France in his age group before we even signed him

For me Kone has simply taken over what Dan Gore looked to be before his loans and injury problems. Another young midfielder with a bit more legs than Mainoo but without his strength and balance, which is why I think Mainoo got to play early.
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I think Mainoo has bulked up too much to play against stronger players. He has been played before he has fully developed. It has been detrimental to him getting around the pitch. He is still young and his strength is still to come as he matures.
 
Kone looks a decent player, not anything like the hype that I have seen written about him. From watching him in the reserves he hasn't been any better than the Fletchers, Gore, Fitzgerald. Let's see how he will develop, United supporters have to stop overhyping these kids.
 
Mylock said:
Kone looks a decent player, not anything like the hype that I have seen written about him. From watching him in the reserves he hasn't been any better than the Fletchers, Gore, Fitzgerald. Let's see how he will develop, United supporters have to stop overhyping these kids.
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I do not go on to other fans websites but I am sure all they would hype up their juniors as well!
 
Shaneo2121 said:
I cant see how a loan like this will prepare Kone for the Premier League.
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I genuinely don’t think he’s going to be playing in the PL for a few years yet. This is a great chance to mature and develop his game out of the limelight. As said above he still looks too weak for the league and he’d get smashed and/or not played in the championship. I hope we send a few more out that way and then even possibly to France for a season before they come here to challenge. Not all these punts will even become players here but we will build a lot of value by letting players steadily build up a decent body of work elsewhere
 
Ali Dia said:
I genuinely don’t think he’s going to be playing in the PL for a few years yet. This is a great chance to mature and develop his game out of the limelight. As said above he still looks too weak for the league and he’d get smashed and/or not played in the championship. I hope we send a few more out that way and then even possibly to France for a season before they come here to challenge. Not all these punts will even become players here but we will build a lot of value by letting players steadily build up a decent body of work elsewhere
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Agree. Hopefully the next three years, he will be loaned out at higher levels, before coming back a more mature and stronger player. He can then have a chance to play in the PL.
 
greater wall said:
Agree. Hopefully the next three years, he will be loaned out at higher levels, before coming back a more mature and stronger player. He can then have a chance to play in the PL.
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And if at some point he comes back ready to play in the pl but not quite at our level for a starter we will get a lot more money for him than if we’d left him training here, cup cameos and bad loans not playing in the championship. He might even be ready for a championship loan as a starter at the start of next season. Slow and steady is sensible. Midfield is the hardest position.
 
Shaneo2121 said:
I cant see how a loan like this will prepare Kone for the Premier League.
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He's young. Cunha spent a year in CH. He's 25 and now ready for United. Why wouldn't this move be perfect for Kone?
 
OverratedOpinion said:
How physical is the Swiss league?
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It’s either quite tough or Lausanne are shite. Pafundi was there on loan and scored 1 goal in about 20 games. He had an option to buy for 14 million and ineos didn’t take it up. He’s one of the hottest Italian prospects in recent years, getting a cap for Italy at 16, making him their third youngest international ever. That’s off the top of my head but I’m fairly sure that info is close enough. No idea of the ins and outs of the deal or if the player didn’t settle or if Lausanne are just terribly run.
 
Dans said:
He's young. Cunha spent a year in CH. He's 25 and now ready for United. Why wouldn't this move be perfect for Kone?
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Because there is a fictional premise that a loan will automatically lead to player improvement. It does not. Not all players need to be dusted off on loan, especially from a team like United that is severely lacking quality in central midfield.

There is the idea that a central midfielder needs to be muscle bound and physical. That is false. What Kone needs is good reading of the game, dynamism and passing range. The dynamic side is already. He covers ground very well. Needs to get slightly stronger but he isn't going to grow into hulk. His short/long passing and link up play are good too. I am far more interested in his technical ability. He has it.

Kone should be taken to pre-season, see how he develops and possibly fight for a position in the first team. I don't think he is far off it. He has been performing well in the current tournament for his country.
 
Nothing automatically leads to player improvement, including a loan but also giving him 1st team minutes.

He's 19 and according to many posters, far from ready.

Sending him on loan is not a bad idea at all. He can be a less tiny fish in a smaller pond - might help him grow as a player and a person.
 
Stobzilla said:
Lausanne -> Nice -> United/Sale

Doesn't need to be complicated.
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Yep, this. We need to get used to doing this without too much fuss. Everyone is of course a fan of us signing players like Obi, Heaven, Kone, Leon. But signing is just the first piece of work; establishing a pathway (or a set of pathways) is just as important.
 
Infrastructure, facilities and training is very good in Switzerland. Salah, Cunha played there too
 
Ali Dia said:
It’s either quite tough or Lausanne are shite. Pafundi was there on loan and scored 1 goal in about 20 games. He had an option to buy for 14 million and ineos didn’t take it up. He’s one of the hottest Italian prospects in recent years, getting a cap for Italy at 16, making him their third youngest international ever. That’s off the top of my head but I’m fairly sure that info is close enough. No idea of the ins and outs of the deal or if the player didn’t settle or if Lausanne are just terribly run.
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The lad has scored one goal in senior football in 40 games as an AM/winger. He might be a talent, but it seems like capping him was probably a bit of a 'taking Theo Walcott to the World Cup' kind of a move.
 
Ali Dia said:
It’s either quite tough or Lausanne are shite. Pafundi was there on loan and scored 1 goal in about 20 games. He had an option to buy for 14 million and ineos didn’t take it up. He’s one of the hottest Italian prospects in recent years, getting a cap for Italy at 16, making him their third youngest international ever. That’s off the top of my head but I’m fairly sure that info is close enough. No idea of the ins and outs of the deal or if the player didn’t settle or if Lausanne are just terribly run.
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Thought he suffered from pretty bad injuries while he was there.
 
The way things are going, I’d be reconsidering this plan to loan him out this season. Our midfield options look extremely poor and the prospect of him breaking through like Mainoo a couple of years ago may end up being one of the better options we have, especially after an injury or two.

I’m happy for him to go and get games, but if we don’t do anything in that area of the pitch then I’d keep him.
 
Rozay said:
The way things are going, I’d be reconsidering this plan to loan him out this season. Our midfield options look extremely poor and the prospect of him breaking through like Mainoo a couple of years ago may end up being one of the better options we have, especially after an injury or two.

I’m happy for him to go and get games, but if we don’t do anything in that area of the pitch then I’d keep him.
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Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo (who's been seen in pre season training playing much deeper), Mount, Bruno and Collyer do or can play there. Not sure what the point of keeping him around in a season where we have zero european football.
 
Devil_forever said:
Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo (who's been seen in pre season training playing much deeper), Mount, Bruno and Collyer do or can play there. Not sure what the point of keeping him around in a season where we have zero european football.
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Since when has Mount played in a midfield two? Bruno can barely play there, and Collyer is not very good and shouldn’t even be here. Interesting how you’ve picked up Mainoo’s position from images of ‘pre-season training’ - but his manager has said on more than one occasion that he thinks he struggles in the role.

We have terrible central midfield options.
 
Rozay said:
Since when has Mount played in a midfield two? Bruno can barely play there, and Collyer is not very good and shouldn’t even be here. Interesting how you’ve picked up Mainoo’s position from images of ‘pre-season training’ - but his manager has said on more than one occasion that he thinks he struggles in the role.

We have terrible central midfield options.
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If he isn’t being brought into the first team squad despite our terrible CM options, then it tells us that the club simply don't think he’s ready yet, and would therefore be even less of an option. In such a scenario, it’s better he gets minutes elsewhere because that might actually be the quickest path to getting him ready for the first team.
 
Rozay said:
Since when has Mount played in a midfield two? Bruno can barely play there, and Collyer is not very good and shouldn’t even be here. Interesting how you’ve picked up Mainoo’s position from images of ‘pre-season training’ - but his manager has said on more than one occasion that he thinks he struggles in the role.

We have terrible central midfield options.
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You're right that our midfield options is screwed up. I actually think we need to start from scratch, identify the profiles of the 2 CMs we need and make two signings. These would need to be 20-25m per signing to be realistic.

Then, we should decide what to do with the rest -

- Bruno will play either 10 or CM depending on the type of opposition.
- Mainoo - there is a question mark on which position etc. Think we should just let him develop as a backup 10.
- Mount - loan and sell. Not sure what he is meant to be.
- Casemiro should leave in my opinion
- Collyer - don't mind him sticking around as a rotation option. He is a physical, hard working player and has decent ball carrying.
- Ugarte - should keep him but he is not a starter. He is good in games when the other team is dominating possession.

That makes it 5 CM options - New CM1, New CM2, Bruno (depending on tactics), Ugarte and Collyer.

Kone on loan.
 
Devil_forever said:
Ugarte, Casemiro, Mainoo (who's been seen in pre season training playing much deeper), Mount, Bruno and Collyer do or can play there. Not sure what the point of keeping him around in a season where we have zero european football.
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But these are really weak options.
 
simonhch said:
He’s 19 with pretty much zero first team football. 6 months or a season in Switzerland, playing week in, week out, would do him wonders, I think. Get him used to playing against men. If he does well, you could even move him to Nice after 6 months.

If he goes on loan, what matters is that he plays. If he’s not playing regularly, he’d be better off staying here with our coaches.
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This is an issue with alot of our loanees, recently we have been better but its been a while since we have had a player who has had a good loan spell and broken into our first 11.

Amad is one but he didn't really come from our academy.

When was the last player that had a loan spell and broke into the first 11?
 
romufc said:
This is an issue with alot of our loanees, recently we have been better but its been a while since we have had a player who has had a good loan spell and broken into our first 11.

Amad is one but he didn't really come from our academy.

When was the last player that had a loan spell and broke into the first 11?
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Probably Welbeck? A lot of players have just gone straight into the team though, like Rashford, Greenwood and Mainoo.

The most recent would have been Alvaro, but EtH never actually gave him a chance after he impressed at Preston.
 
Revival2024 said:
Because there is a fictional premise that a loan will automatically lead to player improvement. It does not. Not all players need to be dusted off on loan, especially from a team like United that is severely lacking quality in central midfield.

There is the idea that a central midfielder needs to be muscle bound and physical. That is false. What Kone needs is good reading of the game, dynamism and passing range. The dynamic side is already. He covers ground very well. Needs to get slightly stronger but he isn't going to grow into hulk. His short/long passing and link up play are good too. I am far more interested in his technical ability. He has it.

Kone should be taken to pre-season, see how he develops and possibly fight for a position in the first team. I don't think he is far off it. He has been performing well in the current tournament for his country.
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There is no guarantee of progress regardless of what we do. However a lot of players are able to develop well at a smaller club playing against adults under less pressure before moving to a bigger club with higher expectations. Thats what a loan would represent for our young players who are already contracted to a big club. A lot of players are not ready to play for a big club at 19/20 but might be just a couple of years later.

Even some success stories like Mainoo and Garnacho are written off or not wanted the season after because their form dips. Our fans are not very patient with them.
 
Crimson King said:
Probably Welbeck? A lot of players have just gone straight into the team though, like Rashford, Greenwood and Mainoo.

The most recent would have been Alvaro, but EtH never actually gave him a chance after he impressed at Preston.
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Excatly, which shows that if they are good enough, they will go into the first 11.

Most club now, players who are good go straight in.. loans help keep the value and sell players.
 
romufc said:
Excatly, which shows that if they are good enough, they will go into the first 11.

Most club now, players who are good go straight in.. loans help keep the value and sell players.
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Yeah and Arsenal are another club to show that recently. I don't think Saka, MLS or Nwaneri spent anytime on loan anywhere. You normally only loan player if you think they might be a late bloomer, or are more likely to be a good squad option rather than a first team star.

I forgot about Lingard, he's probably the most recent player to go on loan and then break into the team? Before that maybe Cleverly? Although he might have actually been before Welbeck, not after
 
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