Sensible, non-hysterical ESL and CL discussion only

tomaldinho1

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I just want to see some semblance of planning restored, other than an attitude which seems simply to cram as many games into a season and attract as many sponsors as possible.

PL format is fine, FA cup is fine, Carabao should be binned.

European comps, I'd rather the CL was more exclusive but it has to be meritocratic. Even if you do 4 groups of 6 to mix it up and guarantee bigger games early on, there simply cannot be immunity for the biggest clubs.

I feel like their end goal despite what they say, because of how they've structured the competition, is that the ESL will eventually just the main weekend fixture for the richest clubs. 1 game a week and 1 main competition which relegates the PL to an FA cup equivalent. If they'd positioned this as a new style of CL setup and not included the whole founding members immunity part, I actually think people would be really keen,
 

Withnail

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All the possible punishments, to me, seem to push these clubs more towards the ESL rather than convince them not to do it. Just try to convince them to go back to normal, let the fan fury take out the greedy bastards within.
Yeah I did find it odd they immediately went to ban them and kick them out etc.

However, your man the UEFA president was just on Sky and he was saying he doesn't believe it's a negotiating tactic and he doesn't believe they are open to any kind of a discussion. This is because they've been discussing the new CL format for the past while, it was all agreed with the clubs a few days ago and it was signed off and ready to be announced today.

Then boom this lot announce the super league. If they had any interest in using it as a bargaining chip they would have brought it up weeks ago.
 

DoomSlayer

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But this isn't just a simple "new competition", is it? This is a break in power, the 12 clubs, spearheaded with our lovely Glazers and Perez, are trying to take over a internationally approved sports organisation.

Whatever we say about UEFA and FIFA, yes there is a lot of corruption, yes people have been making decisions that go against the good of football, but the core principal of having a governing institution is extremely important.

This truly is a "nuclear war" as it was described on one report, it's creating a protecting mechanism for the 12/15 most valuble/rich football clubs out there and saying to everyone else that they decide the future of football as we know it. Franchise football clubs will continue to be even more popular, because it will expand "the brand" of the main football club.

All these corporation tricks to grab an even bigger hand of the pie and create a safety bubble of a select number of competitors that allow each other to survive on specific terms, whilst stifling any other entity outside their group, it's basically a cartel.

The fact that Bayern Munich and PSG, along other strong European teams, have declined joining such a format, shows that this won't go down easy and those 12 clubs have made a bold move that might ruin them.
 

Fox outside the box

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The Ornstein and Chapman podcast once again had the best non-hysterical discussion on this. They say the remaining three spots are kind of an open invite to Munich, PSG and Dortmund. Bayern and Dortmund cannot join right now because they need fan permission on such an issue owing to the ownership model, PSG did not join yet because Qatar owns Bein sports, which has exclusive rights to champions league right now and the competition would be utterly worthless with the super league.

Apparently the discussions on the CL format change were a lot more fractious than UEFA led us to imagine and Bayern were one of the vocal proponents of wanting the clubs that draw most TV revenue to play more often as it seems idiotic not maximizing that. Also the champions league TV revenue fell 35% over the past season, the Spanish, German, Italian and French clubs all are having to negotiate TV deals for less. The premier league clubs have in the past been lukewarm to the idea of the super league because they have very good TV deals and would stand to benefit less as compared to the Spanish, German or Italian clubs but now they see the writing on the wall that the next premier league TV deal will be much poorer than the current one. All that has led to this being sprung so suddenly.

There's still no official broadcast partner and that is still something that will be open for bidding in the near future.
Nice one for this, will look for it tonight and have a listen.
 

Fox outside the box

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But this isn't just a simple "new competition", is it? This is a break in power, the 12 clubs, spearheaded with our lovely Glazers and Perez, are trying to take over a internationally approved sports organisation.

Whatever we say about UEFA and FIFA, yes there is a lot of corruption, yes people have been making decisions that go against the good of football, but the core principal of having a governing institution is extremely important.

This truly is a "nuclear war" as it was described on one report, it's creating a protecting mechanism for the 12/15 most valuble/rich football clubs out there and saying to everyone else that they decide the future of football as we know it. Franchise football clubs will continue to be even more popular, because it will expand "the brand" of the main football club.

All these corporation tricks to grab an even bigger hand of the pie and create a safety bubble of a select number of competitors that allow each other to survive on specific terms, whilst stifling any other entity outside their group, it's basically a cartel.

The fact that Bayern Munich and PSG, along other strong European teams, have declined joining such a format, shows that this won't go down easy and those 12 clubs have made a bold move that might ruin them.
I'm not so sure they haven't joined are the reasons you are assuming.

There's a good post above with a bit of information that I haven't really seen brought up. Seems the podcast could be worth a listen and all I can do is encourage people to get as much information as they can before really setting out how they feel.

We know a tiny amount of what has gone on and what this will all look like and some people seem to be taking advantage of this.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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I've tried to read the press release on their website and understand what has been proposed so far.

The Super League is a new European competition between 20 top clubs comprised of 15 founders and 5 annual qualifiers. There will be two Groups of 10 clubs each, playing home and away fixtures within the Group each year. By bringing together the best clubs and best players in the world, the Super League will deliver excitement and drama never before seen in football.
So it's a midweek competition that will be consisting of 20 top clubs, 15 of whom will be permanent Founding Clubs. These founding clubs will stay as part of the league for the initial commitment period. The Der Speigel leak from two years ago had this period at 20 years. Those leaks also showed Bayern leading the clandestine discussions, so I find praise for their current stance very ironic. They would have joined in if not for their ownership model. Same for Dortmund.

Quick observations:
  • This presumably means that the clubs will be free to participate in the league, but it also means that the participant clubs will be opting out of the UEFA Europa League and Champions League, which occupied mid-week fixtures in the current format. Which in turn means that the rich European history of these clubs, who boast of 99 European trophies between them, will be rendered null and void. To use the phrase of a recently sacked manager, these clubs are selling their 'football heritage' for money. The idea of Real Madrid and AC Milan throwing away their magical history for the greed of their current owners is sickening.
  • If there is no fear of relegation, what motivates the clubs to actually compete, build competent squads and play good football? Why should owners invest at all if all they want to do is rake in money? That sounds like a terrible, stagnant, non-competitive outcome.
  • What happens to the 5 'annual' clubs if they all finish above the FCs in both 10-team halves? Will the last one still get relegated? And if not, what happens if in that duration, Leicester win the CL and PL but can't make it through because there was no one leaving, even if Arsenal finished 17th in the PL that season? That sounds absolutely horrendous and entitled.
  • How will the clubs be picked from across different domestic leagues? Will there be a co-efficient mirroring? Will it be based on viewership? That isn't very clear, either, and doesn't seem like a fair solution exists.
  • There is a mininum of 18 games for the Super League, and a maximum of 23. The proposed changes to the CL with the Swiss model will lead to a minimum of 10 games and maximum of 17. The increase in number of games between CL and SL is at max only 8. That by itself doesn't seem like a very big issue to me - it will replace the pointless games of the Carabao Cup anyways.
  • The SL means that clubs from 6-10 (this will change of course) will finish in the current Champions League, with a chance to play the remaining big clubs like Bayern, Roma, PSG, Dortmund, etc. This leads to more revenue for them (it will be less than what it used to be for the big six, but more than the nothing they were getting earlier).
  • If the ban from UEFA goes through (unlikely) what happens to the 5 participant clubs every year who are selected for the SL?
 

littleman

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But this isn't just a simple "new competition", is it? This is a break in power, the 12 clubs, spearheaded with our lovely Glazers and Perez, are trying to take over a internationally approved sports organisation.

Whatever we say about UEFA and FIFA, yes there is a lot of corruption, yes people have been making decisions that go against the good of football, but the core principal of having a governing institution is extremely important.

This truly is a "nuclear war" as it was described on one report, it's creating a protecting mechanism for the 12/15 most valuble/rich football clubs out there and saying to everyone else that they decide the future of football as we know it. Franchise football clubs will continue to be even more popular, because it will expand "the brand" of the main football club.

All these corporation tricks to grab an even bigger hand of the pie and create a safety bubble of a select number of competitors that allow each other to survive on specific terms, whilst stifling any other entity outside their group, it's basically a cartel.

The fact that Bayern Munich and PSG, along other strong European teams, have declined joining such a format, shows that this won't go down easy and those 12 clubs have made a bold move that might ruin them.
All of this here is all Brexit language to me.

Internationally approved organization? By whom?

Cartel? Is the UN also not a cartel, with permanent members? Is the EU not a cartel?

Bullshit sensationalist language with no insight to the business or empathy with the sports — fan and capital owner.
 

arnie_ni

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I think there’s some discomfort with change. Having watched the EPL for 20 years I too feel like a lot of exciting dynamics will be lost.

However, I’ve lived in the USA for the past decade and sports here is really organized differently, more like the ESL. And it’s still competitive, people still enjoy it and there are just as many sporting stories here as there are in the EPL.

I think this really shows how much these leagues and tournament formats are reliant on these giant clubs. Any entity with leverage should exercise it fully. Just like a top player has choice, and a top league has choice.. this is just a natural evolution of top clubs exercising willpower and choice. The Leicesters and West Hams are all ultimately beneficiaries of Man United. And MUFC has come to collect.
It can't be compared to USA because there is a limited number of teams and they all have an equal chance of winning their respective sport.

That's not whats happening here. We are cutting out 99 percent of the field.
 

DickDastardly

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Sensible and non histerical huh?

It's kind of hard being sensible when they literally dropped the mic on us last night.

And with all the drama involving Čeferin and Agnelli, the quotes being said, the accusations....

We actually know shit as far as i'm concerned.
We don't know the SL clubs plans about remaining in their primary leagues, we don't know their plans on the CL and EL competition.....all we know is the 12 clubs.

And on the opposite side, we have the corrupt UEFA and FIFA, with their panties all cuddled up, going all out with the ban stick.
Ban them from this ban them from that....

All the while, their proposal for the CL being even dumber.
Not to mention the league of nations dumb ass competition.

Meanwhile, the fans are all crying about the good old times, romanticizing about the 90's when football was simpler.
When Romania was a footballing powerhouse.
Collecting all the good Panini albums....good times eh?

Now we have VAR's and league of nations, and Superleagues....makes you wonder how do feck did we get here?
And the answer is pretty easy i guess. Money.

And to anyone with half a brain....there is no turning back.

As the Arctic monkeys would say, Suck it and see.
 

Makelele

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The last 24 hours remind me of how illogical and hysterical human beings can become when whipped by the good ol mob mentality. So easily fired up in a crowd. Can’t wait till everybody calms down and we can have grown conversations about the real issues at play.
 

The holy trinity 68

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Exactly. The 12 founding members of ESL will qualify every single year regardless, make a tonne of cash, and not have to worry about top 4 for years and years. Its why theyve all signed up. Finish 17th and still make hundreds of millions just from ESL. And i tell you another thing, i dont believe one single supporter who has said theyll never go watch them again if they sign up. Not a chance. Theyll even attend the ESL matches IMO
Before Covid, I used to attend quite a few matches for my local club, £10 a ticket and a good day out with mates. I can guarantee 100% that they will be the only football club I will watch if this goes ahead.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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This random article argues if a promotion/relegation system is truly fairer than a closed league. Michael Cox in the Athletic had a similar take today, pointing out that there are grave imbalances in our current system already.

"Use any measure you like — points totals, goal difference, titles, wage bills — and inspect the trajectory of major European leagues over the past two decades, and it becomes clear that we are experiencing staggering, rampant inequality completely off the scale."

A closed league can bring in financial parity, wage caps and help produce more unpredictability, the argument goes. I'm not sure which side of the fence to take.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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  • If there is no fear of relegation, what motivates the clubs to actually compete, build competent squads and play good football? Why should owners invest at all if all they want to do is rake in money? That sounds like a terrible, stagnant, non-competitive outcome.
I think the investment is going to be heavy and constantly good because they have to sell the competition and make it seem higher quality of football as compared to the UEFA competitions. The TV revenues once again drive the owners ambition, if they have a salary cap, they will also have a salary floor that every club must meet to make sure there are no slackers who just get by with the tv revenue once they are in the league. That’s how the American model works.
 

DoomSlayer

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I'm not so sure they haven't joined are the reasons you are assuming.

There's a good post above with a bit of information that I haven't really seen brought up. Seems the podcast could be worth a listen and all I can do is encourage people to get as much information as they can before really setting out how they feel.

We know a tiny amount of what has gone on and what this will all look like and some people seem to be taking advantage of this.
But do you understand the implications on international football agreements? This is not a sanctioned official competition, this is the 12/15 richest owners of football clubs that decide they can monopolise the market, in order to increase revenue and profits by all means necessary, totally neglecting everything that has created the modern football environment at our current times.

I don't get how more obvious it has to get, the whole act right now can destroy the football structure forever.
 

Fox outside the box

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In the immediate to mid term this is true.

I think it would be a mistake to assume this is the ultimate end-point for the competition though. I believe they've committed themselves to domestic competitions for a period of time but once that period ends and the ESL is well established then they may take a different approach.
I think people are making a few too many assumptions about how little these lot care about this taking off.

The more people buy into it and enjoy it the more money they will make. I don't see them just abandoning their home countries entirely, that seems like unfounded hyperbole.

Maybe there will end up being some matches played in other countries in some way but I'm not jsut immediately opposed to that. The world is getting smaller and smaller all the time. Why shouldn't fans in other countries have an opportunity to see their favourite players play?

I know many a person who have gone and watched the NFL, WWE ETC when they come over here, those people are fine with it when it is benefitting them and in fact, openly buzz about it. I can see those same people are bemoaning the idea of having some games take place in a different country. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

This is a global sport and businesses are having to open up to a global audience.

Whether we like it or not, the world is changing, it isn't just football. Alienating entire countries or continents because we want to keep the product to ourselves doesn't seem a great idea, from a business perspective.

And yes, football is a business. Fans clamouring for us to spend £100 million on Sancho can't have their cake and eat it.
 

littlepeasoup

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If the ban from UEFA goes through (unlikely) what happens to the 5 participant clubs every year who are selected for the SL?
A point I'd never really considered - how difficult it might be from a legal/public relations point of view to have teams who might play in the SL and CL one season after the other. There's been no real talk about the mechanism of how they'd choose these 5 extra clubs, has there? I wonder how hard it will be to garner interest in that area.

Excellent post by the way.
 

rcoobc

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So it isn't actually identical then?
The competition is identical. Qualification is not.
 

DoomSlayer

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All of this here is all Brexit language to me.

Internationally approved organization? By whom?

Cartel? Is the UN also not a cartel, with permanent members? Is the EU not a cartel?

Bullshit sensationalist language with no insight to the business or empathy with the sports — fan and capital owner.
So you'd rather give the utlimate power to onwers like Perez and the Glazers? :lol: And by doing that, you totally kill the core purpose of football and what makes it a special worldwide sport.

They obviously are trying to do it, but if the governments get involved, things will get very ugly.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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In the distant past, clubs where able to rise from the bottom to the top organically, I think that ended perhaps in the 90s and then teams like Lazio & Leeds tried to pour cash into their teams but it was not a sustainable model and Leeds for example crashed to the lower leagues and remained out of the PL for nearly 15 years.

Even thoughLeicester has wealthy owner, they actually didn't spend money as Chelsea and City did, and they managed to win the league somehow organically (rising from the bottom to the top).

But aside from Liecester, I don't think any team was ever able to rise from the bottom to the very top organically (winning domestic league and competing in CL) since a very a long time, some teams might get a CL qualifying success from their domestic league (most recent example is Atlanta who played their first ever CL last year if I am right) or go deeper into the CL late rounds (Liepzig who reached SF last year).

Chelsea were a respectable side until Abaramovich stepped in and made them title contenders within 2 years, City started to buy better players when they were purchased by Thaksin Shinawatra in 2007 and then sold to Abu Dhabi Group in 2008, they became a force within 3 years and now are a constant fixture as a title contenders the league.

PSG were bought by QSI in 2011 and within a year dominated their league and bought the likes of Ibrahìmovich, T.Silva, Cavani, Veratti, Neymar, Mbappe for millions of dollars

These 3 clubs are owned by Mega Wealthy owners who can pour millions upon millions of cash into the club and basically killed any hope for any club to grow somewhat originically through success on the pitch and a sustainable investment from the success earned in the pitch.

Now what we have is Super League which will further kill any sort of competition that might allow for the likes of Atlanta in Italy to ever have a chance to have a sustainable success (place high in the league) which will allow them to invest into the club and build a stronger team that can somehow go toe to toe with Elites.

As for the Top 6 in England, Manchester and Liverpool can always rebuild and compete again as they are doing very well financially without outside money, Chelsea and City can also always remain very competitive as they have extremely generous wealthy owners, Arsenal and Tottenham on the other hand aren't doing well financially as Manchester or Liverpool, and they don't have wealthy and generous owners as City and Chelsea so perhaps they are actually the biggest winners from this debacle.

Sorry for the long write-up but what I am trying to say is even though this ESL idea is shitty one, this is way too complicated and there is the corruption issues at UEFA and FIFA level, and greed from bunch of rich owners who only care about money and profits and I am not sure how can this be resolved in a way that is satisfactory to all sides but I am against the rich owners doing whatever they want without checs and balance
 

mancan92

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The set teams and no relegation is an absolute dealbreaker
This is where the merits of the discussion begins and ends for me. This is what some on this forum who want to support it are clearly hoping it changes but you have to realise this rule is intrinsically linked to the whole idea of the SL they will not change that clause its the most important part.
 

Andycoleno9

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Good idea for thread. Other thread is classic emotional reaction where you must say what people want to hear or you say what you mean and become public enemy.

Anyway; i am sad that this all happened but who say that this is the end of domestic leagues and cups? Only Uefa is trying now to kick clubs from domestic leagues. Other clubs are fine with them staying there. Basically we replaced CL with super league. Why not? Lets see that league.
Other clubs will play CL. Again great. Two big competitions during a week.

Between greedy Uefa and greedy United; i choose my club. feck it.
 

Lennon7

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Whilst I don't agree with how they are going about this, from some perspectives I can understand why.

1. Corruption at the core of FIFA and UEFA raises doubts as to how licencing income is being used. Teams possibly believe they deserve more control when they "earn" the bulk of this.

2. Continuously fighting for a CL spot is proving troublesome for English teams who it would seem prefer more predictable cash flows.

3. Real and Barca may actually be in real trouble without this which could ultimately damage the CL.

4. A complete abandonment of financial fair play rules has proven an advantage to state owned teams, which needs to be managed.


Personally I hate the whole idea but the fact that UEFA and FIFA are claiming a moral high ground is laughable given their corruption issues. Additionally, any government involvement in this is a gross over reach of powers imo, these are private businesses despite the nostalgia amongst fans.
I have no doubt that this was engineered by Perez and Madrid are the ones who reached out to the others. You’re right, they’d be fecked without it, but it’s not a reason to feck the rest of football. Madrid will survive a horrible financial period, I can see many lower league or even premier league clubs going under because of this (if the top teams are kicked out of their domestic leagues).
 

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I think the investment is going to be heavy and constantly good because they have to sell the competition and make it seem higher quality of football as compared to the UEFA competitions. The TV revenues once again drive the owners ambition, if they have a salary cap, they will also have a salary floor that every club must meet to make sure there are no slackers who just get by with the tv revenue once they are in the league. That’s how the American model works.
That's interesting. Do American franchises suffer from a lack of competition at times? Someone who follows NFL/MLB/NBA could perhaps weigh in?
 

Gasolin

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The fact that the 15 clubs are permanent is the biggest issue here for me - it's a very US like model where you qualify just based on the fact that you exist. Otherwise you could make an argument that it's similar to the existing CL.
In fact, I have been thinking about it and it remind me of something else: the volleyball nation league.
It has 16 teams, of which 12 core teams that are always qualified, as well as 4 challenger teams that can get "relegated".

Sounds familiar, no?

Personally, I think we have reached a stage where the ESL should be a league above all other leagues basically.
In order to get into the ESL, you now need to be a champion of the 5 major leagues (EPL, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1).

The team ranked last among all members of the league in that ESL should be relegated down to leagues and can only come back up if they're crowned "champion".

That would be a way out of the "crisis" for me. I don't think this should replace the CL. It should just go above all domestic leagues, if it is to happen.

Also, the prize money structure has to change dramatically. Not 300m to participate and 30m to win. Rather, 30m to participate and 300m to win.
 

mancan92

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This random article argues if a promotion/relegation system is truly fairer than a closed league. Michael Cox in the Athletic had a similar take today, pointing out that there are grave imbalances in our current system already.

"Use any measure you like — points totals, goal difference, titles, wage bills — and inspect the trajectory of major European leagues over the past two decades, and it becomes clear that we are experiencing staggering, rampant inequality completely off the scale."

A closed league can bring in financial parity, wage caps and help produce more unpredictability, the argument goes. I'm not sure which side of the fence to take.
Remember that would only include the very elite level every other football level below that will fall apart and no longer exist grassroots football will be dead. So it's not about whether or not you can create a good tournament with the best teams it's whether you want to do that whilst killing football at every other level.
 

Offsideagain

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If this goes ahead, I presume they, the ESL, will expect the games to be broadcasted to the whole of Europe which means stations bidding for the rights to the games. Ticket sales won’t generate the money they hope to get. Imagine if the PL do ban the six and SKY and BT are left with Everton v West Ham as their big match. How many people will subscribe to watch that and similar games without the big six? Their revenue from advertisers and subscribers will fall, so SKY or BT may have to fall in line despite their initial reaction to the announcement. What about the pundits that have all condemned the ESL? Will they swallow their opinions and take the cash? Then the players facing the threat of an international ban may want to leave for pastures new leaving the ‘big six’ devoid of stars thus devaluing the ESL at a stroke.

Only time will tell.
 

Withnail

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This random article argues if a promotion/relegation system is truly fairer than a closed league. Michael Cox in the Athletic had a similar take today, pointing out that there are grave imbalances in our current system already.

"Use any measure you like — points totals, goal difference, titles, wage bills — and inspect the trajectory of major European leagues over the past two decades, and it becomes clear that we are experiencing staggering, rampant inequality completely off the scale."

A closed league can bring in financial parity, wage caps and help produce more unpredictability, the argument goes. I'm not sure which side of the fence to take.
I was thinking about this today myself.

I think it's a terrible idea in general due to the fact that it's a closed shop.

However, if you look at the SL in isolation the fact that the 15 clubs are guaranteed in or around the same money each year could mean it being a more level playing field between those 15 clubs. Obviously the 5 guests have no chance.

With the right approach, any of those 15 teams could win it, provided they all were interested in investing enough of the money to do that.

One of the glaring issues is why would we expect the Glazers to bother investing enough to win?
 

Fox outside the box

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But do you understand the implications on international football agreements? This is not a sanctioned official competition, this is the 12/15 richest owners of football clubs that decide they can monopolise the market, in order to increase revenue and profits by all means necessary, totally neglecting everything that has created the modern football environment at our current times.

I don't get how more obvious it has to get, the whole act right now can destroy the football structure forever.
You're just making assertions and assumptions here, you've given me nothing to suggest you're not just being hyperbolic. This shite gets said all the time. Footballs been losing it's soul for years. Go and look on this site alone, I bet you can find hundreds of similar sounding posts about all kinds of things. I recall lots of people threatening to stop watching because of VAR.

No, I've openly said I don't have enough information, I specifically say that in my post. I simply said that I'm not sure their reasons (bayern etc) for not joining are what you describe. I then went on to state there's a podcast mentioned in a different post that seems to delve into this which seems to go into detail a bit deeper. That is all. I never said I knew they weren't or you were talking rubbish.

There are a shocking number of people on this site who don't seem capable of fecking reading, it's really frustrating. It's post after post of either putting words in people's mouths or straw manning them completely.

I don't much care for these little emotional outbursts which is why I've specifically come to a thread which seems to have the intention of just talking about this without all the hysteria.
 

RooneyLegend

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Why doesn't Uefa for just give these big leagues more slots into the CL? It's not like it benefits anyone to have those really small teams. FFP has to be done with, It serves no purpose outside of creating one team leagues. There's too much money in football these days to do things the 'right way'.
 

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So far, the media coverage has been one sided, totally against the plans. In my view, this was an inevitable move, given the greed of the wealthy owners of the big clubs.

There are a few points which need to be considered to provide balance.
Places are open to five teams to enter each year, so it isn't a complete closed shop. The new CL proposals from UEFA were awful, we'd have had more teams included, to give more boring group matches.
With one or two notable exceptions, the 20 teams in the ESL will provide top level quality matches throughout.
The original European Cup featured around 16 teams, before UEFA's expansion.
Watching United play the likes of Real and Barca more often is appealing. We last played Real in a competitive match in 2013, we've drawn Barca in the CL once since 2011. The critics say that will be boring, but they are quite happy for us to play the likes of Wolves and Burnley twice each season!
The big clubs drew up a plan last year, which was out voted by the smaller clubs.
The big clubs don't get their fair share of the PL TV revenue. More people pay their Sky subscriptions to watch the big clubs, not the likes of West Brom and Sheffield United. Yet, these small clubs are artificially stimulated by a bigger share of revenues largely generated by the big clubs.
The small PL clubs vetoed the proposal to safeguard players' welfare by allowing five substitutions in a match, due to the congested fixture schedule this season.
Hypocrosy of Sky and their pundits slating the proposals, due to them losing the golden goose which they created in 1992.
UEFA's inability to manage their own FFP rules, thereby allowing state owned clubs to prosper, to the detriment of proper big clubs, such as United and Liverpool.
FIFA's selling of the World Cup to Qatar, based on greed and corruption.
Corruption and bans imposed on several high ranking FIFA officials - Blatter, Warner, Platini.

I haven't seen these points mentioned in the media. This isn't to say that I support the ESL plans, but that these factors need to be considered to give a balanced review of the proposals.
 

rcoobc

Not as crap as eferyone thinks
Joined
Jul 28, 2010
Messages
41,004
Location
C-137
Sensible and non histerical huh?

It's kind of hard being sensible when they literally dropped the mic on us last night.

And with all the drama involving Čeferin and Agnelli, the quotes being said, the accusations....

We actually know shit as far as i'm concerned.
We don't know the SL clubs plans about remaining in their primary leagues, we don't know their plans on the CL and EL competition.....all we know is the 12 clubs.

And on the opposite side, we have the corrupt UEFA and FIFA, with their panties all cuddled up, going all out with the ban stick.
Ban them from this ban them from that....

All the while, their proposal for the CL being even dumber.
Not to mention the league of nations dumb ass competition.

Meanwhile, the fans are all crying about the good old times, romanticizing about the 90's when football was simpler.
When Romania was a footballing powerhouse.
Collecting all the good Panini albums....good times eh?

Now we have VAR's and league of nations, and Superleagues....makes you wonder how do feck did we get here?
And the answer is pretty easy i guess. Money.

And to anyone with half a brain....there is no turning back.

As the Arctic monkeys would say, Suck it and see.
Would you mind deleting this and posting this in one of the other threads?
 

SwedishFish

New Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
1,129
Yes regular season games in the NBA which I watch alot of can be extremely low energy almost like they are just waiting for playoffs.
It's too centered around playoffs with, in my opinion, way too many games stuffed in with an abundance of teams in terms of the NBA.

Players sitting out a majority of the game to rest until playoffs etc. A shortened season would help the NBA.
 

Tapori

Full Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
2,065
Location
Manchester - South Side
The last 24 hours remind me of how illogical and hysterical human beings can become when whipped by the good ol mob mentality. So easily fired up in a crowd. Can’t wait till everybody calms down and we can have grown conversations about the real issues at play.
Which are?
 

Charlie Foley

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,410
Exactly. The 12 founding members of ESL will qualify every single year regardless, make a tonne of cash, and not have to worry about top 4 for years and years. Its why theyve all signed up. Finish 17th and still make hundreds of millions just from ESL. And i tell you another thing, i dont believe one single supporter who has said theyll never go watch them again if they sign up. Not a chance. Theyll even attend the ESL matches IMO
People do have points at which they step away from a club though. For some it was the Glazers. For some it will be this. A little anecdote, I have a Liverpool supporting mate who never watched a Liverpool match after the fall out of the Suarez-Evra thing (after they beat us in the FA cup, he said he saw “Dalglish’s little racist” cheering in the stand and thought bollocks to it all). So saying everyone who says it isn’t telling the truth is just dumb. Some will, some won’t.
 

mancan92

Full Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
8,846
Location
Loughborough university
It's too centered around playoffs with, in my opinion, way too many games stuffed in with an abundance of teams in terms of the NBA.

Players sitting out a majority of the game to rest until playoffs etc. A shortened season would help the NBA.
Honestly it's been killing basketball for soo long. It really doesn't matter what you do in the regular season. People genuinely don't care and often viewing numbers fall alot compared to playoff season.
 

Charlie Foley

Full Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
11,410
I just want to see some semblance of planning restored, other than an attitude which seems simply to cram as many games into a season and attract as many sponsors as possible.

PL format is fine, FA cup is fine, Carabao should be binned.

European comps, I'd rather the CL was more exclusive but it has to be meritocratic. Even if you do 4 groups of 6 to mix it up and guarantee bigger games early on, there simply cannot be immunity for the biggest clubs.

I feel like their end goal despite what they say, because of how they've structured the competition, is that the ESL will eventually just the main weekend fixture for the richest clubs. 1 game a week and 1 main competition which relegates the PL to an FA cup equivalent. If they'd positioned this as a new style of CL setup and not included the whole founding members immunity part, I actually think people would be really keen,
This is a pretty interesting post. Personally I would be for a champions league with less spaces available in the big leagues, winners of smaller leagues more able to qualify directly to the group stages, and clubs owned by countries not allowed. I would also like a serious enforcement of FFP. Neither of these things will happen sadly