Sensible, non-hysterical ESL and CL discussion only

SwedishFish

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Honestly it's been killing basketball for soo long. It really doesn't matter what you do in the regular season. People genuinely don't care and often viewing numbers fall alot compared to playoff season.
Completely agree mate and that's why doing this type of format with too many teams will be detrimental no matter what sport.
 

The Mitcher

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This is war!

Boris Johnson needs to mobilise the troops because as far as I'm concerned Prince Philip's death was caused by this as was DMX's

Every man woman and child has been personally stabbed in the chest by the blade of the venomous snakes that be the Glazer's

Further, I propose we go on a national strike until football is given back to the people!

Oh sorry, misread the title, I thought this was the hysterical thread. :(
Don't worry, some people will come in here not getting the memo!
 

Charlie Foley

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That's interesting. Do American franchises suffer from a lack of competition at times? Someone who follows NFL/MLB/NBA could perhaps weigh in?
NFL has a much shorter season to NBA/MLB. A lot of people don’t watch the regular season of the latter 2.
 

Fox outside the box

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This random article argues if a promotion/relegation system is truly fairer than a closed league. Michael Cox in the Athletic had a similar take today, pointing out that there are grave imbalances in our current system already.

"Use any measure you like — points totals, goal difference, titles, wage bills — and inspect the trajectory of major European leagues over the past two decades, and it becomes clear that we are experiencing staggering, rampant inequality completely off the scale."

A closed league can bring in financial parity, wage caps and help produce more unpredictability, the argument goes. I'm not sure which side of the fence to take.
Gandalf, you're the man! (or woman) I've only read the first article and I'm really glad you posted it. I'm not familiar with these types of systems really, having never really followed American sports. I've just lazily sneered at 'the yanks' because I suppose everyone around me always has.

That was actually a very interesting read and made some really good points I didn't consider. I'll read the second but these are the sorts of articles I want to read, I'd like an opposing one to that first one with a similar objective tone. I don't know enough about this whole setup smand/and have quickly tried to get catching up.
 

11101

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Whilst I don't agree with how they are going about this, from some perspectives I can understand why.

1. Corruption at the core of FIFA and UEFA raises doubts as to how licencing income is being used. Teams possibly believe they deserve more control when they "earn" the bulk of this.

2. Continuously fighting for a CL spot is proving troublesome for English teams who it would seem prefer more predictable cash flows.

3. Real and Barca may actually be in real trouble without this which could ultimately damage the CL.

4. A complete abandonment of financial fair play rules has proven an advantage to state owned teams, which needs to be managed.


Personally I hate the whole idea but the fact that UEFA and FIFA are claiming a moral high ground is laughable given their corruption issues. Additionally, any government involvement in this is a gross over reach of powers imo, these are private businesses despite the nostalgia amongst fans.
Sums up how I feel about it.

I would be supportive if they addressed two things.

How exactly can clubs be removed and added to it? It cant be 15 clubs ringfenced for eternity.

Why are City invited if the mockery of FFP is at the core of this? Chelsea too, though they pre date FFP.
 

rron10

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Just give the PL 6 to 8 CL spots and everyone will shake hands at the end and will call it a day.
 

Bastian

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I'm a bit surprised to see people patronisingly slate those who reacted immediately. There's nuance of course, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with reacting immediately to a very ill-prepared, horrifically timed statement on a 75% locked in tournament that is not based on sporting merit, further widening the gap between the top clubs and the rest.

A useful strawman argument, if ever there was one, is to look at what kind of creatures are driving these changes?

Another reminder that fans were not consulted, nor staff (playing or otherwise).

I think this "measured" and "sensible" bit is nothing but pretence. Sorry.
 

Ali Dia

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Sums up how I feel about it.

I would be supportive if they addressed two things.

How exactly can clubs be removed and added to it? It cant be 15 clubs ringfenced for eternity.

Why are City invited if the mockery of FFP is at the core of this? Chelsea too, though they pre date FFP.
The new league will probably have a wage and transfer cap so that’s your FFP answer. Still all that aside It’s mostly about creating a cartel and cutting out the middle man (UEFA) and taking all the money as far as I can see.
 

rcoobc

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I'm a bit surprised to see people patronisingly slate those who reacted immediately. There's nuance of course, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with reacting immediately to a very ill-prepared, horrifically timed statement on a 75% locked in tournament that is not based on sporting merit, further widening the gap between the top clubs and the rest.

A useful strawman argument, if ever there was one, is to look at what kind of creatures are driving these changes?

Another reminder that fans were not consulted, nor staff (playing or otherwise).

I think this "measured" and "sensible" bit is nothing but pretence. Sorry.
I'm just trying to have a discussion about what's going to happen without people raising their hands in the air and shout and scream.
 

Foxbatt

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Exactly. The 12 founding members of ESL will qualify every single year regardless, make a tonne of cash, and not have to worry about top 4 for years and years. Its why theyve all signed up. Finish 17th and still make hundreds of millions just from ESL. And i tell you another thing, i dont believe one single supporter who has said theyll never go watch them again if they sign up. Not a chance. Theyll even attend the ESL matches IMO
I will never go or pay to watch the SL.
 

Pronewbie

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The geopolitical parallel to all of this is America-styled Unilaterlism vs European Multilateralism. Europe need to prioritise its own peoples' interests.

As a member of the world, I am rooting for Multilateralism despite its imperfections. That, and the fact that the plutocracy stinks.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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Remember that would only include the very elite level every other football level below that will fall apart and no longer exist grassroots football will be dead. So it's not about whether or not you can create a good tournament with the best teams it's whether you want to do that whilst killing football at every other level.
I get this perspective. A Super League will surely be drawing far more viewership than the domestic leagues or the now-degraded Champions League. Given this, all Founding Clubs will pull away from the non-SL clubs in terms of spending power, player pull and manager pull. The inequality within the domestic leagues will be accelerated even further, which means that domestic clubs will struggle to compete in the league any further. Are you saying that this will also mean that lesser viewership, ergo lesser money, will trickle down the footballing pyramid leading to suffocation of funds for the grassroots clubs? I'm not sure how.

My counter-argument is this - if clubs 1-6 are in the SL, then clubs 7-10 get to participate in the Champions League (now at the level of the Europa League with exceptions, of course). This European exposure wasn't something they had before, and fans of clubs like Everton, West Ham and Leicester would surely watch their clubs face up against the Sevilla, Roma, Ajax, etc on a regular basis? Clubs 10-12 get to be in the Europa League, facing unheralded European competition as well. Isn't this money (along with whatever solidarity payments the SL makes) good enough to keep grassroots football going?
 

mancan92

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Completely agree mate and that's why doing this type of format with too many teams will be detrimental no matter what sport.
The biggest problem is that except from team rivalry there is nothing to talk about in the normal season there are no incentives for players to do well except just basic pride. In the regualar season there are genuinely no narratives to discuss at all.
 

mancan92

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I get this perspective. A Super League will surely be drawing far more viewership than the domestic leagues or the now-degraded Champions League. Given this, all Founding Clubs will pull away from the non-SL clubs in terms of spending power, player pull and manager pull. The inequality within the domestic leagues will be accelerated even further, which means that domestic clubs will struggle to compete in the league any further. Are you saying that this will also mean that lesser viewership, ergo lesser money, will trickle down the footballing pyramid leading to suffocation of funds for the grassroots clubs? I'm not sure how.

My counter-argument is this - if clubs 1-6 are in the SL, then clubs 7-10 get to participate in the Champions League (now at the level of the Europa League with exceptions, of course). This European exposure wasn't something they had before, and fans of clubs like Everton, West Ham and Leicester would surely watch their clubs face up against the Sevilla, Roma, Ajax, etc on a regular basis? Clubs 10-12 get to be in the Europa League, facing unheralded European competition as well. Isn't this money (along with whatever solidarity payments the SL makes) good enough to keep grassroots football going?
It all depends on money. If all the money from sponsors and TV goes to the SL then it doesn't matter what the likes of Everton or West Ham do in the champions league the money will disappear they won't be able to run the way they currently do and there won't be any money to trickle down because the teams won't even have enough to play their players or staff etc. That is why it will be the end of football at a grassroots level. That is also why in america you have little to no grassroots games in the major sports.
 

rcoobc

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This random article argues if a promotion/relegation system is truly fairer than a closed league. Michael Cox in the Athletic had a similar take today, pointing out that there are grave imbalances in our current system already.

"Use any measure you like — points totals, goal difference, titles, wage bills — and inspect the trajectory of major European leagues over the past two decades, and it becomes clear that we are experiencing staggering, rampant inequality completely off the scale."

A closed league can bring in financial parity, wage caps and help produce more unpredictability, the argument goes. I'm not sure which side of the fence to take.
I'm not sure that the European Super League really solves that. Not unless the domestic game is decimated at the same time. How does it work if United get huge income from the Premier League and the ESL, but Inter Milan only get a little income from Serie A?
 

USREDEVIL

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In the distant past, clubs where able to rise from the bottom to the top organically, I think that ended perhaps in the 90s and then teams like Lazio & Leeds tried to pour cash into their teams but it was not a sustainable model and Leeds for example crashed to the lower leagues and remained out of the PL for nearly 15 years.

Even thoughLeicester has wealthy owner, they actually didn't spend money as Chelsea and City did, and they managed to win the league somehow organically (rising from the bottom to the top).

But aside from Liecester, I don't think any team was ever able to rise from the bottom to the very top organically (winning domestic league and competing in CL) since a very a long time, some teams might get a CL qualifying success from their domestic league (most recent example is Atlanta who played their first ever CL last year if I am right) or go deeper into the CL late rounds (Liepzig who reached SF last year).

Chelsea were a respectable side until Abaramovich stepped in and made them title contenders within 2 years, City started to buy better players when they were purchased by Thaksin Shinawatra in 2007 and then sold to Abu Dhabi Group in 2008, they became a force within 3 years and now are a constant fixture as a title contenders the league.

PSG were bought by QSI in 2011 and within a year dominated their league and bought the likes of Ibrahìmovich, T.Silva, Cavani, Veratti, Neymar, Mbappe for millions of dollars

These 3 clubs are owned by Mega Wealthy owners who can pour millions upon millions of cash into the club and basically killed any hope for any club to grow somewhat originically through success on the pitch and a sustainable investment from the success earned in the pitch.

Now what we have is Super League which will further kill any sort of competition that might allow for the likes of Atlanta in Italy to ever have a chance to have a sustainable success (place high in the league) which will allow them to invest into the club and build a stronger team that can somehow go toe to toe with Elites.

As for the Top 6 in England, Manchester and Liverpool can always rebuild and compete again as they are doing very well financially without outside money, Chelsea and City can also always remain very competitive as they have extremely generous wealthy owners, Arsenal and Tottenham on the other hand aren't doing well financially as Manchester or Liverpool, and they don't have wealthy and generous owners as City and Chelsea so perhaps they are actually the biggest winners from this debacle.

Sorry for the long write-up but what I am trying to say is even though this ESL idea is shitty one, this is way too complicated and there is the corruption issues at UEFA and FIFA level, and greed from bunch of rich owners who only care about money and profits and I am not sure how can this be resolved in a way that is satisfactory to all sides but I am against the rich owners doing whatever they want without checs and balance
I enjoyed the post. Good summary of what has happened over the last decade or so. When you think about what has happened, and how big money has caused these clubs to be seen as more of an investment, it's almost inevitable that they would take action to secure their investments by removing the instability of being out of the CL. Unfortunately for the sport, this will cause possibly devastating results to the non-elite clubs and in the long run, water down what the elite do. It will be far far less compelling to watch the EPL, knowing that the "elite" clubs are just going through the motions, especially where one club (currently City) is far and above the rest. Like who really gives a feck about the league now..? The Super League (more like plastic league) seems boring. Same fecking teams wanking each other off until Bayern or Barca win it. Meanwhile the likes of Tottenham, Arsenal, and possibly us, will be the Super League whipping boys. No fairytale stories. Just the same old shite year after year.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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Honestly it's been killing basketball for soo long. It really doesn't matter what you do in the regular season. People genuinely don't care and often viewing numbers fall alot compared to playoff season.
But this was bound to happen anyways in the Champions League, with 8 lesser games that's all. The domestic league can and will always provide upsets and new narratives due to top 10 qualification for CL and top 12 qualification for EL. Just providing counter-arguments.
 

Baneofthegame

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NFL has a much shorter season to NBA/MLB. A lot of people don’t watch the regular season of the latter 2.
Can’t speak for MLB, but certainly a lot of people do watch the regular season in the NBA, myself included, even with COVID.
 

Gandalf Greyhame

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I'm not sure that the European Super League really solves that. Not unless the domestic game is decimated at the same time. How does it work if United get huge income from the Premier League and the ESL, but Inter Milan only get a little income from Serie A?
There is a proposed spending framework in the SL format. It has many repercussions:
- All SL clubs will get similar money (maybe a little more based on knockouts) and have similar wage caps. This means that over time, United and Inter Milan will have similar spending power.
- This eliminates the insane transfer fees set in motion since CR7, and bumped up by Neymar. There will be sensible transfer caps within the SL. Even if a part of this saving, (and that's a big if), gets redirected to the lower leagues, it might be economically feasible.
- We will be eliminating insane agent fees as well. Again, money saved there, and in a way that benefits football.

I guess a lot rides of how much the SL leaves for the trickle-down in terms of league right distributions.
 

Stactix

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I'm a bit surprised to see people patronisingly slate those who reacted immediately. There's nuance of course, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with reacting immediately to a very ill-prepared, horrifically timed statement on a 75% locked in tournament that is not based on sporting merit, further widening the gap between the top clubs and the rest.

A useful strawman argument, if ever there was one, is to look at what kind of creatures are driving these changes?

Another reminder that fans were not consulted, nor staff (playing or otherwise).

I think this "measured" and "sensible" bit is nothing but pretence. Sorry.
Just have to look at who is behind this, the way they've handled it. Slimey scum is an understatement, some are really fecking bad. (Ac Milan owner)
Richest clubs, many of which haven't been successful in years or have zero success in Europe will completely price out any competition due to the sheer increase in money.
 

mancan92

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But this was bound to happen anyways in the Champions League, with 8 lesser games that's all. The domestic league can and will always provide upsets and new narratives due to top 10 qualification for CL and top 12 qualification for EL. Just providing counter-arguments.
Sure but the difference is that there are narratives in football because of all the things involved both from a national point of view and a historical. In basketball there is nothing like that literally every game means nothing except rivalries between players and a few teams.
 

AaronRedDevil

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Could they not just make this a thing every 3 years in-between the Euros and WC. That they can get their money and feck off and we can keep our football the way it is mostly.
 

bosnian_red

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Non hysterical ESL talk is that these clubs realized that they operated in a completely unsustainable manner and are relying on escaping into the super league to save themselves. Barcelona was run as just a really incompetent business on the shoulders of an all time great, Messi. Now with covid is hititng them, they are fecked financially so want to suck the soul out of football. Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs are all outside current top 4. They're about to be hit really hard as they spent outside their means to get to the top, and then when they aren't there, they are shit scared that they're about to implode. Italian clubs are notorious for being a disaster financially.

It's a joke that the whole footballing world will suffer because these select few clubs gambled with the way they operated, it didn't pay off, and now they are fighting to survive. What a farce.
 

Charlie Foley

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Can’t speak for MLB, but certainly a lot of people do watch the regular season in the NBA, myself included, even with COVID.
I watch the NBA regular season too! You can have a lot of people watching something and a lot of people not watching too. There are lot of people
 

largelyworried

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Additionally, any government involvement in this is a gross over reach of powers imo, these are private businesses despite the nostalgia amongst fans.
I agree with most of your post , but this is demonstrably false. Football cannot be equated with, say, a supermarket or restaurant chain. It’s woven with the social fabric of this country to such a deep degree that anything that threatens the game is also threatening that social link too. Just because the organisation is incorporated like other entities doesn’t mean they’re comparable.
 

DoomSlayer

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Non hysterical ESL talk is that these clubs realized that they operated in a completely unsustainable manner and are relying on escaping into the super league to save themselves. Barcelona was run as just a really incompetent business on the shoulders of an all time great, Messi. Now with covid is hititng them, they are fecked financially so want to suck the soul out of football. Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs are all outside current top 4. They're about to be hit really hard as they spent outside their means to get to the top, and then when they aren't there, they are shit scared that they're about to implode. Italian clubs are notorious for being a disaster financially.

It's a joke that the whole footballing world will suffer because these select few clubs gambled with the way they operated, it didn't pay off, and now they are fighting to survive. What a farce.
This 1000%. Unimaginable greed and the inability to face the consequences in their failures with the clubs.
 

Ayoba

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Has there actually been an official statement on this from anyone from the ESL?
 

Charlie Foley

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Yes people watch it but there is just not in anyway the numbers compared to playoffs. There are no narratives except basic rivaliies
You two are arguing with me from opposite sides now :lol: I agree with you, I was pointing out to that other guy that while people watch a lot don’t
 

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That's interesting. Do American franchises suffer from a lack of competition at times? Someone who follows NFL/MLB/NBA could perhaps weigh in?
The NBA is a curious one. It pays the be the worst if your season isn't looking like it's going anywhere. The collegiate draft system permits first picks on the best college players for those teams who have the poorest record in the league. This is good, since it helps the worst teams improve and limits the top teams from dominating ad-infinitum. If you frequent an NBA fan sub-reddit of a team performing poorly, it's not unusual to see them willing their team to tank games on purpose in order to secure the illustrious top draft pick. Now, we don't have that draft system, so, it's somewhat inconsequential, however, that is an example of an American franchise suffering from a lack of competition from the perspective of those performing worst. Also, the NBA season has two conferences, East and West, each composing of 15 teams each. Of those 15, eight qualify for the playoffs from each conference, which can and often does lead to some uncompetitive regularly season games.

But again, the proposal of the ESL isn't exactly a like-for-like application of a US model, so, the NBA's shortcomings aren't necessarily ours.
 

MUFC OK

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Anyone else think that UEFA will end up running this?
Almost certainly not. More likely they revise their CL proposals after discussions but I think there’s a realisation amongst the SL clubs that they can go it alone.
 

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Looks like a daylight robbery. I think it is not going to happen. It’s 12 families vs the whole world. Seems like owners underestimated the solidarity of the football world.
 

Hugh Jass

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It will render the PL boring if the big six are automatically through to the super league regardless of final league position. I would just stop watching the PL, unless we are in the mix to win it, and just watch the SL. So it is probably not sustainable because of that.

I think UEFA though are to blame for this mess now in ways because the clubs with the biggest earnings want to be playing in the CL, but it is only the top 4 that can qualify. If you were to pick the top twenty clubs by revenue, i guess nine or ten of them would be in the PL, yet only four teams can qualify for the CL. They should really in the last six years have increased this to at least six teams and they would not be in this mess IMO.
 

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For me it's very simple and hysteria-free. This proposed competition has teams in it who do not earn their place, but just get a free pass season after season, and there is no suggestion that other clubs have any way to join that protected class. That's wrong, and bad for football, and I will never be on board with it.

All the other stuff is peripheral, because football is hardly an honest working man's game anyway. But that lack of earned participation is a threshold I will never be ok with us crossing.
 

bosnian_red

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That's interesting. Do American franchises suffer from a lack of competition at times? Someone who follows NFL/MLB/NBA could perhaps weigh in?
American sports like NFL kind of have an incentive to plan for the future and there's strategy to finish lower sometimes. Lower position gives you a higher draft pick. Jacksonville Jaguars finished bottom of the NFL and have the #1 overall draft pick this year, and it so happens to be that a generational prospect is coming out of college this year in Trevor Lawrence who is talked up as the best quarter back prospect in pretty much a decade. Things like that can transform a team and ensure things go in cycles (but still depends on how the teams are managed).

This is literally impossible in football though. There is no such thing as draft picks, there is no college ball, etc., so this Super League will now have dominance within it pretty quickly and everyone will want to play for the very top teams (if it happens), because there is nothing to balance it out. Sure salary caps, but that won't be enough.
 

Offside

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For me it's very simple and hysteria-free. This proposed competition has teams in it who do not earn their place, but just get a free pass season after season, and there is no suggestion that other clubs have any way to join that protected class. That's wrong, and bad for football, and I will never be on board with it.

All the other stuff is peripheral, because football is hardly an honest working man's game anyway. But that lack of earned participation is a threshold I will never be ok with us crossing.
Yep. Couldn’t have said it better. As Neville said, even the Premier League has had many negatives but a competition that goes against the fabric of competitive sport just cannot happen.
 

HackeyC

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I agree with most of your post , but this is demonstrably false. Football cannot be equated with, say, a supermarket or restaurant chain. It’s woven with the social fabric of this country to such a deep degree that anything that threatens the game is also threatening that social link too. Just because the organisation is incorporated like other entities doesn’t mean they’re comparable.
I could argue you are comparing the food supply chain to kicking a ball around on TV, one certainly should be a higher priority for the government than the other!
 

nokillingmoths

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Exactly. The 12 founding members of ESL will qualify every single year regardless, make a tonne of cash, and not have to worry about top 4 for years and years. Its why theyve all signed up. Finish 17th and still make hundreds of millions just from ESL. And i tell you another thing, i dont believe one single supporter who has said theyll never go watch them again if they sign up. Not a chance. Theyll even attend the ESL matches IMO
Chelsea fans gonna Chelsea fan.
 

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At the moment, the only voices we are hearing about this are from those with a vested interest or those who have something to lose like the current broadcasters/ UEFA and the football associations. Is there anywhere we can find a balanced piece from a neutral perspective? At the moment the uproar seems to be because the media and the FA are creating a massive fuss, and understandably so, because they are going to lose their golden geese.