Sensible, non-hysterical ESL and CL discussion only

Laurencio

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They have simply done it by which clubs draw the most fan viewership
While failing to convince Bayern and PSG to join them. What's their plan here, announce the winner of the league as champions of europe without playing against Bayern Munich and PSG? That in itself delegitimises the whole concept. You can't just ignore Bayern Munich, they are arguably a bigger club with a stronger European pedigree than ten of the twelve involved, including Manchester United. PSG are probably the best club (most talented players) in the world right now, so if you don't beat them you aren't really the champion of anything.

This reeks American franchise sports where you proclaiming yourself a "World Champion" when you've really just beat a handful of clubs in a ridiculously overcomplicated knock out tournament.
 

NoLogo

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To be honest I have thought about what Pros could be and compared to the CL there don't seem to be any. What is the benefit of the proposed model that the big games happen all season long according to the paper that has been leaked to the athletic but isn't part of the reason why the big games are perceived as so big because they don't happen every other week?

And there is just one absolute killer argument for me that is the biggest negative that there can be, that only 5 teams will be in this competition on merit, the rest will be there by default. With some nations being completely out of it. I'm sorry but people always rail against participation trophies, being in this competition by default is the ultimate participation trophy, you get millions of dollars just existing.

I'm not even opposed to an alternative model to the current CL and giving a governing body of European teams more influence on this competition compared to UEFA/FIFA, because let's be frank UEFA and FIFA both are corrupt shit-houses, but you can't replace what they offer through something even worse.
 

Sky1981

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You cannot compare how United/Liverpool/Spurs/Arsenal are run to UEFA, they are not corrupt. Don't confuse being ruthless for corruption, we might not like what they are doing but they aren't the same thing.

Chelsea/City I can't comment on...
They're corrupt? Probably. But they're making sure that european teams got shares equally from the CL pie. Be it strovan bratislava or hapeol tel aviv, everyone good enough can get their payday. That's as fair as they can get.

Compared to ESL where the TV deals would be split only among the greedy 12 teams.

Bit hypocrite to call the UEFA is corrupt if this is the alternative.
 

Sky1981

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Answer this:

Who holds the rights for TV license? I'm assuming the 12 clubs does.

Who gets the pie? I'm assuming no matter how they mechanized it it'll end in the pocket of these 12 teams.

Assuming ESL is popular. Same money as CL, divided by only 12.

But somehow the UEFA is corrupt as feck. Yeah right. The hypocrisy of united fans knows no limit. This is 100 percent about money. feck football and community and heritage.
 

romufc

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I get it from the fans point of view, this is yet another kick to the fans. No competition, the quality of the PL will be poor because by December if you are 7th then nothing to play for if you are already in the ESL.

However; looking at it from the PL and UEFA point of view, I have minimal sympathy for them. They let these parasites take over these clubs, knowing full well how they done it.

Was it fair when Roman bought Chelsea and spent that much?
Was it fair when CIty got bought by a state? the way they manage their finances to be within FFP?
Was it fair for PSG to be bought by a state?

Where was the "for the fans" when PL asked us to pay £15 per game?
Where was the "for the fans" when they hike ticket prices?
Where was the "for the fans" when shirt prices are £70?

What did they really expect from these owners?

Football has not been for the fans for a long time now, the PL and UEFA are using this strategy because their pockets are threatened, nothing to do with caring for the fans.
 

Escobar

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I wonder if they would come up with so and so many subscribers now that the fans (or most of them) are outraged. It could be a huge risk / failure now for them, with no way back.
We all agree that Fifa / Uefa are a problem itself, but that is another story
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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uefa/fifa, or the new money clubs should strike quickly and show ruthless strength of will (the only thing these billionaires actually respect) by having one or two of the instigating owners killed. You just can't try and cut in on a man's business like this. Let us plebs at least get some entertainment out of the whole greedy, corrupt farce where both sides are as bad as each other.
 

The Boy

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I genuinely can not see this happening in this format, the backlash is just too much and it won't be going away any time soon. But this could just be a clever way to get it through. Put this forward see the huge backlash, then agree to compromise by allowing relegation and promotion maybe just 1 from each league, so 5 in Germany and France join in. There would be very little movement as teams that won the league would often be teams already in the comp and if you get relegated but win your league you stay in. You could also negotiate that the founding clubs take x percent of the revenue, so they get the lions share regardless. And you've taken the sting out of the argument.
 

troylocker

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uefa/fifa, or the new money clubs should strike quickly and show ruthless strength of will (the only thing these billionaires actually respect) by having one or two of the instigating owners killed. You just can't try and cut in on a man's business like this. Let us plebs at least get some entertainment out of the whole greedy, corrupt farce where both sides are as bad as each other.
WTF! I actually think it's against the law to even joke about stuff like this.
 

mancan92

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Don't agree with this at all.

I watch the NHL. Below that is the AHL, then ECHL. There is plenty of hockey below that as well.

Don't know about the other major US sports as I don't watch them.
We are talking about the main American sports. Theres not much to disagree with. NBA for example has no grassroots play except basic pick up games.
 

NoLogo

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Answer this:

Who holds the rights for TV license? I'm assuming the 12 clubs does.

Who gets the pie? I'm assuming no matter how they mechanized it it'll end in the pocket of these 12 teams.

Assuming ESL is popular. Same money as CL, divided by only 12.

But somehow the UEFA is corrupt as feck. Yeah right. The hypocrisy of united fans knows no limit. This is 100 percent about money. feck football and community and heritage.
This is what Angeli said:

We need to protect investments.
And that's really all this is about. Money and protecting the investment of their owners. It's how the whole system in the world is set up currently, protect the investments of rich people, they want all the profit with no risk involved and the worst part is that they seem to think that even in sport, which is by default competitive and merit based they think it's unfair that they don't get a guaranteed return on their investment.
 

Laurencio

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To be honest I have thought about what Pros could be and compared to the CL there don't seem to be any. What is the benefit of the proposed model that the big games happen all season long according to the paper that has been leaked to the athletic but isn't part of the reason why the big games are perceived as so big because they don't happen every other week?

And there is just one absolute killer argument for me that is the biggest negative that there can be, that only 5 teams will be in this competition on merit, the rest will be there by default. With some nations being completely out of it. I'm sorry but people always rail against participation trophies, being in this competition by default is the ultimate participation trophy, you get millions of dollars just existing.

I'm not even opposed to an alternative model to the current CL and giving a governing body of European teams more influence on this competition compared to UEFA/FIFA, because let's be frank UEFA and FIFA both are corrupt shit-houses, but you can't replace what they offer through something even worse.
I think the big game argument is mostly based on nostalgia, but it would certainly make them less special occasions. The marketing around this will be insane, it will be like super sunday every single matchday. Imagine Spurs vs Arsenal being a nothing fixture... it takes away a lot of tradition for sure.

The meritocracy is a shambles. Even the idea that 5 teams will be invited on merit assumes every team in Europe will want to take part in the competiton. Which is far from a sure thing. Might end up with something silly like Japanese, Chinese and random South American teams being invited while PSG, Ajax, Bayern, Napoli, Atlanta and Lyon simply don't want to join.

There is little doubt a restructuring is needed, a fairer system for all clubs, but as you point out replacing UEFA with JPMorgan and friends doesn't make a lick of sense. We just kicked Blatter and his corrupt gang out of FIFA, and now we are going to replace that with Perez, Glazers and Abu Dhabi?

Answer this:

Who holds the rights for TV license? I'm assuming the 12 clubs does.

Who gets the pie? I'm assuming no matter how they mechanized it it'll end in the pocket of these 12 teams.

Assuming ESL is popular. Same money as CL, divided by only 12.

But somehow the UEFA is corrupt as feck. Yeah right. The hypocrisy of united fans knows no limit. This is 100 percent about money. feck football and community and heritage.
What makes it worse is that it all looks like it is being led by Manchester United. JPMorgan is the go to bank for the Glazers, the competition model is clearly American, and Ed Woodward has clearly been heavily involved. United isn't just involved, we are the brains behind it...
 

Escobar

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This is what Angeli said:



And that's really all this is about. Money and protecting the investment of their owners. It's how the whole system in the world is set up currently, protect the investments of rich people, they want all the profit with no risk involved and the worst part is that they seem to think that even in sport, which is by default competitive and merit based they think it's unfair that they don't get a guaranteed return on their investment.
This is what it is in a nutshell. They want more profit, anything else is not of importance.
 

sugar_kane

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I sort of feel like I'd be less against the ESL if I supported one of the teams which wasn't an ESL founder member, as it wouldn't feel like the heart had been ripped out of the team I love, and maybe it would give my own team a better chance of flourishing in the domestic league whilst retaining it's integrity as a club.

Clearly however, that opinion isn't shared across the board - so you have to assume this is an all round terrible idea.

I tend to look at the people behind the decisions rather than decisions themselves, and in this case the ESL has been created by a bunch of wankers therefore it's almost certainly not an idea that's going to benefit anyone but them.
 

terraloo

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There is no doubt that this is all driven by money but and a big but the timing of the announcement on the day that UEFA announced their proposals to re vamp the CL, EL and their soon to be introduced 3rd competition isn’t coincidental.

For UEFA to be crying Wolf or come to that the PL smacks of pure hypocrisy just as Sky trying to take the moral high ground and whipping things up just makes me shake my head in disbelief. It was Sky that facilitated the breakaway PL. the breakaway PDC. I suspect the fact is they , Sky, haven’t been invited to take part in discussions is a clue and the possible implications should a pan European competition proceed on say the Netflix or Amazon platform.

UEFA moved away from a format where the league winners played in an elite competition to make money. Allowing four clubs from England to qualify for the group stages whereas the champions of smaller nations like Wales, like Gibraltar like Albania will never get to play in the CL in effect is doing exactly the same albeit packaged differently and justified by throwing a few crumbs.

Just about every supporter holds the FA, UEFA and FIFA in contempt so I find it ironic that so many can contemplate supporting any UEFA decisions. Their proposal to re vamp the CL into one league of 36 teams playing just 5 league games at home and five way is pathetic. UEFA won’t allow these fixtures to be randomly selected it will based on co efficient so again it would still be a closed shop for 99% of participants in the 1/4s

I personally think UEFA and the organisers of this league will have to reach a compromise. But suggestions that that the clubs be kicked out of the PL will be the death of that competition the whole financial structure of the clubs that operate in that league is based on the vast TV revenues that quite simply won’t be there going forward .

Similarly there is a suggestion is that the clubs should be kicked out of the CL. Really. Again the competition is funded by TV revenue and sponsors who simply wouldn’t(even if you ignore the English clubs) contemplate a CL without Real and Barca.

I am far from sure of the legal status of any of the FA, FIFA and of course UEFA but based on a couple of European court rulings it’s possible that those historical governing bodies could be bypassed and if painted into a corner a pan European structure could be set up whereby say 40 clubs from England, Italy, Spain maybe a couple from Scotland the odd club from Holland, Russia etc could easily form a 40 club structure yes with relegation and promotion between the two leagues and maybe with some sort of election or promotion to that structure outside UEFA and or FIFA would spell the end of domestic football as we know it and yes grass roots who say they only get crumbs probably wouldn’t even get a share of any crumbs.

This is about money and money is power.
 

NoLogo

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I sort of feel like I'd be less against the ESL if I supported one of the teams which wasn't an ESL founder member, as it wouldn't feel like the heart had been ripped out of the team I love, and maybe it would give my own team a better chance of flourishing in the domestic league whilst retaining it's integrity as a club.

Clearly however, that opinion isn't shared across the board - so you have to assume this is an all round terrible idea.

I tend to look at the people behind the decisions rather than decisions themselves, and in this case the ESL has been created by a bunch of wankers therefore it's almost certainly not an idea that's going to benefit anyone but them.
The funniest thing, or saddest thing rather, is that these clubs all seem to assume they can remain in their domestic leagues, I mean after all there is money to be made in those leagues as well. They basically said to the rest of the league. "Oh yeah we are going to keep having a league that makes us even richer but we are not going to let you play in it, sorry."

I really don't get what they thought would happen? That the rest of the league bow down and just take it up the rear? Either they are really naive enough that they think they can get away with this or the plan was to break away from domestic games anyways and claim "Well we had no other choice, the domestic leagues booted us out, what could we do if the are such bad sports about it?"
 

Hughes35

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Whilst I don't agree with how they are going about this, from some perspectives I can understand why.

1. Corruption at the core of FIFA and UEFA raises doubts as to how licencing income is being used. Teams possibly believe they deserve more control when they "earn" the bulk of this.

2. Continuously fighting for a CL spot is proving troublesome for English teams who it would seem prefer more predictable cash flows.

3. Real and Barca may actually be in real trouble without this which could ultimately damage the CL.

4. A complete abandonment of financial fair play rules has proven an advantage to state owned teams, which needs to be managed.


Personally I hate the whole idea but the fact that UEFA and FIFA are claiming a moral high ground is laughable given their corruption issues. Additionally, any government involvement in this is a gross over reach of powers imo, these are private businesses despite the nostalgia amongst fans.
Decent post but I doubt the liked of City or PSG want a ESL due to the abandonment of financial fair play.
 

AltiUn

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Does anyone else think the founding members will suddenly have a significantly more difficult time negotiating prices for players? I wonder if some clubs would just outright refuse to do business with them.
 

Annihilate Now!

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Here's a non-hysterical question.

At the beginning of this season, if I offered you one competition to win this season. Would you pick the League or the Champions League?

I bet at least 90% of fans would say the league.
 

Stack

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Here's a non-hysterical question.

At the beginning of this season, if I offered you one competition to win this season. Would you pick the League or the Champions League?

I bet at least 90% of fans would say the league.
Im probably in a minority here but I would have picked the Champions League. I still hold hope one day I will see United win it more times than the scouse cnuts
 

DoomSlayer

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Here's a non-hysterical question.

At the beginning of this season, if I offered you one competition to win this season. Would you pick the League or the Champions League?

I bet at least 90% of fans would say the league.
Are you serious? We've won the league the most, we need those CLs much more.
 

Annihilate Now!

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Are you serious? We've won the league the most, we need those CLs much more.
The CL feels satisfying when you know you're the best team.

If we won the CL this year it would feel like a bit of a fluke (like Liverpool in 05) - if you win the league there rarely be an argument. Also taking that league title from Liverpool? come on now...
 

Becks00

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I’m concerned with these huge cash injections that have been bandied about that Sancho, Grealish, Haaland, etc will be snapped up by the ESL clubs. They’ll continue to do that which will further weaken teams that are not in the ESL.
Well that's the whole point, get the most talented players in the world together, competing against each other and giving the fans a very good product to watch every weekend and be entertained.

For me the above is the biggest benefit the ESL offers and the individual country league FAs banning the ESL clubs only fast track this by making them able to play weekend games and effectively degrading the other leagues to development leagues. As much as I see the arguments of UEFA/FAs/Sky/BT et al about the competitiveness of the football pyramid being eroded, I still think overall the ESL will deliver better value and entertainment to the fans and would also provide sustainability and stability across the football industry. The growing cost of player acquisition is just not sustainable at the top end of the industry and is leading to inferior products being churned out every week. Now there might be some arguments that teams like Aston Villa, Crystal Palace, Dortmund, Villarreal, Sevilla, West Ham and the likes being able to demand outrageous amount of money for their top talents leads to more competitive domestic leagues but I don't think it necessary leads to more entertaining football being played on a weekly basis. If the top talents are constantly denied the chance to play for the top clubs and the chance to team up with other world class players in those clubs and compete amongst themselves in the premier competition then its inevitably going to lead to less interesting football games. The arguments about the competitiveness of the overall league or champions league being better if these top players are more evenly spread out would make sense if there are an infinite amount of top players but if Villa are going to hold on to Grealish unless some club invest 20% of its revenue on him or Palace refuse to sell Zaha unless similar conditions are met, it means these really talented players get to play out their peak years (which is often between 5-7 years) in clubs that would be unable to provide a platform for them to maximize their full potential and provide the most entertainment to fans. Unless Villa gets lucky like United did in 1992 where there are 5 to 6 Grealish level type talents coming through at the same time and making them genuinely able to compete at the highest level, then depriving these players the chance to link up with other top players and provide scintillating football while competing against each other just doesn't make sense for the good of the game or for the fans.

The one problem I think with the ESL is the permanent status of the founding members. They have to find a way to reward football clubs who do get lucky with a golden generation that can compete with the ESL clubs while punishing those who mismanage their clubs among the ESL clubs.
 

Tom Cato

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I think there’s some discomfort with change. Having watched the EPL for 20 years I too feel like a lot of exciting dynamics will be lost.

However, I’ve lived in the USA for the past decade and sports here is really organized differently, more like the ESL. And it’s still competitive, people still enjoy it and there are just as many sporting stories here as there are in the EPL.

I think this really shows how much these leagues and tournament formats are reliant on these giant clubs. Any entity with leverage should exercise it fully. Just like a top player has choice, and a top league has choice.. this is just a natural evolution of top clubs exercising willpower and choice. The Leicesters and West Hams are all ultimately beneficiaries of Man United. And MUFC has come to collect.

The league is also meaningless. I watch the Stanley Cup and all we care about is making it to the playoffs.

It's nice for hockey since it's all they know.

But in Europe, especially the football leagues we have a history dating back to 1888 where winning the league was the echelon of domestic success.

The prestige of Europe came in the 1950s.

The big, big, and only difference here is that you earn the right to play in Europe.

The league has importance for two reasons. One for ranking. One for qualification. Today they are equal by tradition. With ESL they will be secondary by transition.

The hurtful thing is that there is no soul in this. No tradition or sense of belonging. It alienates friends and makes people angry for the wrong reasons.
 

littlepeasoup

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Does anyone else think the founding members will suddenly have a significantly more difficult time negotiating prices for players? I wonder if some clubs would just outright refuse to do business with them.
I absolutely think this would be the case. How could clubs who have come out strongly against this in all good conscience then turn around and take money from them, whilst also transferring their players over to them?
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Football is almost entirely dominated by money now. PSG have won 7 out of the last 8 Ligue 1 title and around half the cups. Bayern have won 8 consecutive Bundesliga titles and around half the cups. Juventus have won 9 consecutive Serie A titles and around half the cups. Real Madrid and Barcelona have won 14 out of the last 15 league titles; Barcelona have won 5 out of the last 7 cups and played 6 of the 7 finals.

The Premier League is only superficially different. Manchester City are on course to win 3 of the last 4 PL titles. The clubs selected for the ESL have won 36 out of the last 40 FA and EFL cups. The only clubs to 'break through' in the last two decades are Manchester City and Chelsea, who did it through external funding. Leicester, the fairytale story, have never been able to finish in the top 4 or win a cup since. They are the public policy equivalent of dealing with inequality by giving homeless people free lottery tickets.

The last winners of the Champions League all belonged to the clubs with most trophies (Real Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona, Liverpool). Teams in the ESL or invited to it were part of every single CL final in the last decade. Since the Europa League rules were changed to allow the winner to participate in the Champions League, the winner has always been a club that participates in the Champions League with some regularity: Sevilla, Manchester United, Atletico Madrid, and Chelsea.

The current football system has all but eliminated real competition. There is an illusion of competition, a cheer at a minnow eliminating a big club, like Porto knocking out Juventus, that is inevitably followed by the minnow's underwhelming elimination by a richer club. If you are a mid-table club, your aspirations have been reduced to having the opportunity to win a single cup title in a decade, maybe. Or you can pray to God that you'll be the next Leicester, get to put on that glass slipper for a season, and then go back to the empty middle.

Bayern Munich have fired their manager mid-season twice in the last years. It did not stop them from winning the league and qualifying for the CL. Juventus were relegated and lost many of their players. Within five years they began a nine-year period of domination of the Serie A. Inter and Milan had very quiet decades due to financial troubles and mismanagement; nobody else was able to step into their shoes and actually win Serie A titles or get to CL finals or do much of anything. Now that Juventus is showing weakness, they are finally going to relinquish the title... to Inter. We see time and time again that the vacuum that money leaves cannot be filled with grit and hard work; when another club comes in and fills the vacuum with money, they take over much more easily.

Besides all that, the current disparity between the PL and the rest of the leagues is completely unsustainable. Clubs like Tottenham, Manchester United, and Chelsea struggle to qualify to the Champions League every season because the competition is so fierce. Meanwhile, the last placed team in most other top leagues isn't actually very good and can't usually do much of anything in the top competition, and the first placed team doesn't have to do anything but the absolute bare minimum to qualify. They'd all be insane to let this continue.

This isn't to say I am pro-ESL. It's to say we are in the ESL. The ESL is the 4th of July party, we are Jack Torrance right in the middle of the picture.
 

Laurencio

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Here's a non-hysterical question.

At the beginning of this season, if I offered you one competition to win this season. Would you pick the League or the Champions League?

I bet at least 90% of fans would say the league.
The league... the Champions League doesn't really matter if you can't win domestically. 99 is the essence of how it should be in my opinion, dominate at home, and cap it off by winning the champions league to be crowned the best of them all. That is what sport is all about, being the best and winning accolades by merit. If you win the CL, but finish fourth 20 points behind the league champions you can't really claim to be the best in Europe... you're not even the best in your own country.
 

dal

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So UEFA have basically come back with a copy of sorts.

Announcing the new champions league format whereby two teams will be invited via the best champions league coefficient.

Hence Liverpool and Chelsea are set to Benefit.

I don’t see the point about we are the biggest club so we should be there.

However I do see a clubs point of why are Helsingborg there and not Chelsea and Liverpool.

I see the points but I feel nasty to agree with them.
 

Superden

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I absolutely think this would be the case. How could clubs who have come out strongly against this in all good conscience then turn around and take money from them, whilst also transferring their players over to them?
because £££££ talks louder than principles.
 

Sky1981

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There is no doubt that this is all driven by money but and a big but the timing of the announcement on the day that UEFA announced their proposals to re vamp the CL, EL and their soon to be introduced 3rd competition isn’t coincidental.

For UEFA to be crying Wolf or come to that the PL smacks of pure hypocrisy just as Sky trying to take the moral high ground and whipping things up just makes me shake my head in disbelief. It was Sky that facilitated the breakaway PL. the breakaway PDC. I suspect the fact is they , Sky, haven’t been invited to take part in discussions is a clue and the possible implications should a pan European competition proceed on say the Netflix or Amazon platform.

UEFA moved away from a format where the league winners played in an elite competition to make money. Allowing four clubs from England to qualify for the group stages whereas the champions of smaller nations like Wales, like Gibraltar like Albania will never get to play in the CL in effect is doing exactly the same albeit packaged differently and justified by throwing a few crumbs.

Just about every supporter holds the FA, UEFA and FIFA in contempt so I find it ironic that so many can contemplate supporting any UEFA decisions. Their proposal to re vamp the CL into one league of 36 teams playing just 5 league games at home and five way is pathetic. UEFA won’t allow these fixtures to be randomly selected it will based on co efficient so again it would still be a closed shop for 99% of participants in the 1/4s

I personally think UEFA and the organisers of this league will have to reach a compromise. But suggestions that that the clubs be kicked out of the PL will be the death of that competition the whole financial structure of the clubs that operate in that league is based on the vast TV revenues that quite simply won’t be there going forward .

Similarly there is a suggestion is that the clubs should be kicked out of the CL. Really. Again the competition is funded by TV revenue and sponsors who simply wouldn’t(even if you ignore the English clubs) contemplate a CL without Real and Barca.

I am far from sure of the legal status of any of the FA, FIFA and of course UEFA but based on a couple of European court rulings it’s possible that those historical governing bodies could be bypassed and if painted into a corner a pan European structure could be set up whereby say 40 clubs from England, Italy, Spain maybe a couple from Scotland the odd club from Holland, Russia etc could easily form a 40 club structure yes with relegation and promotion between the two leagues and maybe with some sort of election or promotion to that structure outside UEFA and or FIFA would spell the end of domestic football as we know it and yes grass roots who say they only get crumbs probably wouldn’t even get a share of any crumbs.

This is about money and money is power.
The uefa, fifa etc are just bodies. They literally opens a party and free to invite anyone they want. Or in this case rejects it. They dont have to have a reason, people might complain but ultimately it's on an invitation basis.

Not inviting someone isnt against the law.
 

AnotherLondonManc

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I don't see how this proposal can go ahead, at least in it's current format. There is no scenario where the ESL will be allowed to ursurp the Champions League. There are simply too many road blocks, too many governing bodies to satisfy (all of whom appear strongly against the notion), and too much public backlash.

However, I read that JP Morgan has already invested over £3bn in planning the ESL and this won't be money down the drain. Something will come of this, it's just unclear what it will look like.

What I would genuinely like to see is a pre-season tournament for all the top clubs in Europe. I believe that if clubs are properly incentivised to win it, it could become a competitive tournament. It would be possible to drive the marketing of an annual pre season event and generate enough interest to make it commercially viable. It would then encourage teams to play their best starting XI and be a real spectacle for the fans. We could see RM vs MU every year without compromising our current competition formats.

Alternitavely, it could have a similar format to World Cup / Euro Cup qualifiers where ESL games are played twice every 3 months or so with a grand final held once every 2 years

I see the ESL as a repacement of the Club World Championship more than the Champions League. And in time, it may have a chance of becoming a reputable competition and be a benefit to all the fans. Or maybe it would just be a micky mouse cup, I dunno
 

Escobar

Poster originally known as Michel04
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La-La-Land
The new CL format is also shit. Shame that UEFA is as incompetent as are the super league owners
 

Schneckerl

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Jun 17, 2016
Messages
2,649
Isn't it a serious conflict of interest if Pérez is the chairman of the organization and president of one of the participating clubs? There are enough discussions about games being rigged without such blatantly shady structures anways.
 

Sky1981

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Apr 12, 2006
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Under the bright neon lights of sincity
Barcelona vs. United is special. Because it doesnt happened very often. And when it happens, there's something big at stake.

Hence big european nites.

ESL would seriously devalue the match, not only that but it'll be ramped up and decencitizes the fans. Happens every week. Yawn.

Sorry. That's me done watching football. And for all the "it'll be a good show" it wont. Just like the league the ESL would have 2 or 3 front runners at most and the rest is rubber dead match with no top 4 to chase, no relegation to escape. Nothing at stake for the other 18 teams.

A match with nothing at the stake can't be a good match. It's fecking exhibition
 

villain

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Apr 22, 2014
Messages
12,741
Football is almost entirely dominated by money now. PSG have won 7 out of the last 8 Ligue 1 title and around half the cups. Bayern have won 8 consecutive Bundesliga titles and around half the cups. Juventus have won 9 consecutive Serie A titles and around half the cups. Real Madrid and Barcelona have won 14 out of the last 15 league titles; Barcelona have won 5 out of the last 7 cups and played 6 of the 7 finals.

The Premier League is only superficially different. Manchester City are on course to win 3 of the last 4 PL titles. The clubs selected for the ESL have won 36 out of the last 40 FA and EFL cups. The only clubs to 'break through' in the last two decades are Manchester City and Chelsea, who did it through external funding. Leicester, the fairytale story, have never been able to finish in the top 4 or win a cup since. They are the public policy equivalent of dealing with inequality by giving homeless people free lottery tickets.

The last winners of the Champions League all belonged to the clubs with most trophies (Real Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona, Liverpool). Teams in the ESL or invited to it were part of every single CL final in the last decade. Since the Europa League rules were changed to allow the winner to participate in the Champions League, the winner has always been a club that participates in the Champions League with some regularity: Sevilla, Manchester United, Atletico Madrid, and Chelsea.

The current football system has all but eliminated real competition. There is an illusion of competition, a cheer at a minnow eliminating a big club, like Porto knocking out Juventus, that is inevitably followed by the minnow's underwhelming elimination by a richer club. If you are a mid-table club, your aspirations have been reduced to having the opportunity to win a single cup title in a decade, maybe. Or you can pray to God that you'll be the next Leicester, get to put on that glass slipper for a season, and then go back to the empty middle.

Bayern Munich have fired their manager mid-season twice in the last years. It did not stop them from winning the league and qualifying for the CL. Juventus were relegated and lost many of their players. Within five years they began a nine-year period of domination of the Serie A. Inter and Milan had very quiet decades due to financial troubles and mismanagement; nobody else was able to step into their shoes and actually win Serie A titles or get to CL finals or do much of anything. Now that Juventus is showing weakness, they are finally going to relinquish the title... to Inter. We see time and time again that the vacuum that money leaves cannot be filled with grit and hard work; when another club comes in and fills the vacuum with money, they take over much more easily.

Besides all that, the current disparity between the PL and the rest of the leagues is completely unsustainable. Clubs like Tottenham, Manchester United, and Chelsea struggle to qualify to the Champions League every season because the competition is so fierce. Meanwhile, the last placed team in most other top leagues isn't actually very good and can't usually do much of anything in the top competition, and the first placed team doesn't have to do anything but the absolute bare minimum to qualify. They'd all be insane to let this continue.

This isn't to say I am pro-ESL. It's to say we are in the ESL. The ESL is the 4th of July party, we are Jack Torrance right in the middle of the picture.
This post deserves a like.
 

Sweet Square

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Football is almost entirely dominated by money now. PSG have won 7 out of the last 8 Ligue 1 title and around half the cups. Bayern have won 8 consecutive Bundesliga titles and around half the cups. Juventus have won 9 consecutive Serie A titles and around half the cups. Real Madrid and Barcelona have won 14 out of the last 15 league titles; Barcelona have won 5 out of the last 7 cups and played 6 of the 7 finals.

The Premier League is only superficially different. Manchester City are on course to win 3 of the last 4 PL titles. The clubs selected for the ESL have won 36 out of the last 40 FA and EFL cups. The only clubs to 'break through' in the last two decades are Manchester City and Chelsea, who did it through external funding. Leicester, the fairytale story, have never been able to finish in the top 4 or win a cup since. They are the public policy equivalent of dealing with inequality by giving homeless people free lottery tickets.

The last winners of the Champions League all belonged to the clubs with most trophies (Real Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona, Liverpool). Teams in the ESL or invited to it were part of every single CL final in the last decade. Since the Europa League rules were changed to allow the winner to participate in the Champions League, the winner has always been a club that participates in the Champions League with some regularity: Sevilla, Manchester United, Atletico Madrid, and Chelsea.

The current football system has all but eliminated real competition. There is an illusion of competition, a cheer at a minnow eliminating a big club, like Porto knocking out Juventus, that is inevitably followed by the minnow's underwhelming elimination by a richer club. If you are a mid-table club, your aspirations have been reduced to having the opportunity to win a single cup title in a decade, maybe. Or you can pray to God that you'll be the next Leicester, get to put on that glass slipper for a season, and then go back to the empty middle.

Bayern Munich have fired their manager mid-season twice in the last years. It did not stop them from winning the league and qualifying for the CL. Juventus were relegated and lost many of their players. Within five years they began a nine-year period of domination of the Serie A. Inter and Milan had very quiet decades due to financial troubles and mismanagement; nobody else was able to step into their shoes and actually win Serie A titles or get to CL finals or do much of anything. Now that Juventus is showing weakness, they are finally going to relinquish the title... to Inter. We see time and time again that the vacuum that money leaves cannot be filled with grit and hard work; when another club comes in and fills the vacuum with money, they take over much more easily.

Besides all that, the current disparity between the PL and the rest of the leagues is completely unsustainable. Clubs like Tottenham, Manchester United, and Chelsea struggle to qualify to the Champions League every season because the competition is so fierce. Meanwhile, the last placed team in most other top leagues isn't actually very good and can't usually do much of anything in the top competition, and the first placed team doesn't have to do anything but the absolute bare minimum to qualify. They'd all be insane to let this continue.

This isn't to say I am pro-ESL. It's to say we are in the ESL. The ESL is the 4th of July party, we are Jack Torrance right in the middle of the picture.
Very good post. I've found it's the ''death of football'' stuff very short sighted and a bit odd.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Real Madrid
The league... the Champions League doesn't really matter if you can't win domestically. 99 is the essence of how it should be in my opinion, dominate at home, and cap it off by winning the champions league to be crowned the best of them all. That is what sport is all about, being the best and winning accolades by merit. If you win the CL, but finish fourth 20 points behind the league champions you can't really claim to be the best in Europe... you're not even the best in your own country.
Manchester United fans could do with a little less arrogance about how other clubs 'should' win European trophies given that you won one with two goals in extra time and the other one in a 6-5 penalty shootout.
 

tomaldinho1

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Messages
7,072
Football is almost entirely dominated by money now. PSG have won 7 out of the last 8 Ligue 1 title and around half the cups. Bayern have won 8 consecutive Bundesliga titles and around half the cups. Juventus have won 9 consecutive Serie A titles and around half the cups. Real Madrid and Barcelona have won 14 out of the last 15 league titles; Barcelona have won 5 out of the last 7 cups and played 6 of the 7 finals.

The Premier League is only superficially different. Manchester City are on course to win 3 of the last 4 PL titles. The clubs selected for the ESL have won 36 out of the last 40 FA and EFL cups. The only clubs to 'break through' in the last two decades are Manchester City and Chelsea, who did it through external funding. Leicester, the fairytale story, have never been able to finish in the top 4 or win a cup since. They are the public policy equivalent of dealing with inequality by giving homeless people free lottery tickets.

The last winners of the Champions League all belonged to the clubs with most trophies (Real Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona, Liverpool). Teams in the ESL or invited to it were part of every single CL final in the last decade. Since the Europa League rules were changed to allow the winner to participate in the Champions League, the winner has always been a club that participates in the Champions League with some regularity: Sevilla, Manchester United, Atletico Madrid, and Chelsea.

The current football system has all but eliminated real competition. There is an illusion of competition, a cheer at a minnow eliminating a big club, like Porto knocking out Juventus, that is inevitably followed by the minnow's underwhelming elimination by a richer club. If you are a mid-table club, your aspirations have been reduced to having the opportunity to win a single cup title in a decade, maybe. Or you can pray to God that you'll be the next Leicester, get to put on that glass slipper for a season, and then go back to the empty middle.

Bayern Munich have fired their manager mid-season twice in the last years. It did not stop them from winning the league and qualifying for the CL. Juventus were relegated and lost many of their players. Within five years they began a nine-year period of domination of the Serie A. Inter and Milan had very quiet decades due to financial troubles and mismanagement; nobody else was able to step into their shoes and actually win Serie A titles or get to CL finals or do much of anything. Now that Juventus is showing weakness, they are finally going to relinquish the title... to Inter. We see time and time again that the vacuum that money leaves cannot be filled with grit and hard work; when another club comes in and fills the vacuum with money, they take over much more easily.

Besides all that, the current disparity between the PL and the rest of the leagues is completely unsustainable. Clubs like Tottenham, Manchester United, and Chelsea struggle to qualify to the Champions League every season because the competition is so fierce. Meanwhile, the last placed team in most other top leagues isn't actually very good and can't usually do much of anything in the top competition, and the first placed team doesn't have to do anything but the absolute bare minimum to qualify. They'd all be insane to let this continue.

This isn't to say I am pro-ESL. It's to say we are in the ESL. The ESL is the 4th of July party, we are Jack Torrance right in the middle of the picture.
The difference being that all of these rich clubs who, as you say, tend to dominate do not have immunity from being 'relegated' from the CL. I think, using your example, whilst the system is not perfect you can see how Arsenal are team who were once at the pinnacle and, over time, have been arguably overtaken by clubs like Leicester, Spurs, Everton. It is not a perfect system but it is possible to break into the elite, it's just too difficult (and needs money) to be relevant for 99% of football fans. The whole immunity from relegation is the biggest problem with the ESL. It's taking an already broken system and making it even worse.

I feel like a salary cap is the only realistic way to make the process of 'smaller' clubs rivalling the 'bigger' clubs because it rewards coaching a hell of a lot more than the current system does - we have never seen a PL with any sense of a level playing field, it's a bit like F1 in that sense, you know who should win and then, if they have a bad season, you have a couple of other teams who are almost as wealthy who can profit from their errors.
 

The Plump Poet

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Financially it makes sense. Local fans do not matter in football anymore. It's that simple.