Thats a good point as a whole we are not so bad in defense, City are first with only 32 goals received, funny thing is they only allowed 3 goals from set pieces. We allowed 14, so if we were as good as they are at defending set pieces we would be just one goal below them, and this is from a team that was really cheered by their defensive solidity.
Set pieces issue, who's to blame? the manager, coaching staff or the players?
- Thread starter SAFMUTD
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How? you just listed the players missing the duel...I would say he was at fault for the goal vs Everton as well, together with a bunch of others...
wow I didnt remember us being so good at them, 22 goals is really something. I think realistically we should aim for 15 goals at least, anything above that would be great. Specially when we face low blocks set pieces are really important, we wont have so many open play chances so you have to make the most of them. Nevermind in a KO tournament, how many times we've seen games defined by a corner or a set piece its unbelievable.
For that goal, AWB lost an aerial to an Everton player who headed the ball in to the box where it fell down on Calvert Lewins foot. If Lindelof had reacted faster maybe he would have been able to stop it.
Exactly my thoughts as well, it will be very effective against low block teams. We pump attack after attack and awarded with corner after corner. But we cannot aim every corner for Maguire. It’s too easy to read.
I don't know how many times I have highlighted that the main issue is as you say it's too predictable. It's not rocket science (maybe it's to some people) that the shorter the distance the ball has to travel the sooner a judgement has to be made. It's no wonder all the great sides including The Dutch side of Rinus Michels, Sachi's Milan, Ajax and Barca under Cruijff, they all use the near post flick in their variations. There are so many options with the near post flick.
Of course they have to practice it and I don't think we practice it all. Surely if we practice it we can't be this crap?
Cavani needs to stop coming too deep his tackling is insanely clumsy. He tackled the player who landed on Maguire's ankle and he tackled and was penalized for the set-piece that Villareal scored from.
You don’t know but you’re blaming them anyway.
It’s a fad at the moment to simply blame those mysterious coaches for all our deficiencies. It can’t be the lack of heading ability in our team, the lack of height, the lack of strength, it’s must be those pesky coaches doing something wrong again.
Exactly it’s not rocket science. I watched all PSG games during Zlatan time there. Cavani was exceptional at going for the first post at corners and free kicks , so far out that nobody could mark him. He could either aim for goal at first post or more often flick it in to the centre. In the box you also had Zlatan, Thiago Silva and Marquinhos. No defender knows what will happen as they have several weapons, not just aiming for the big guy.
Look at 00:30, 4:03, 7:12 and 7:19 to see what I mean.
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Well I think the data is clear, the one thing that changed was the coaches.
Tell me something, what's more likely that we have the worst squad in the entire league ability wise for set pieces or that having rookie managers is affecting us? What does your logic tells you?
Well I don't think it's possible to be worse than Rashford in the air. He's absolutely terrible.
Is it that outrageous to go with the former? I mean somebody has to be the worst, why can't it be us?
Then you watch us and actually yeah it really could be us.
Even Maguire, by far our best in this regard, has been poor in the opposition's box. He should have at least five more goals for us.
Pogba if it's put right on his head is good but ask him to track a man and forget about it.
McTominay is decent.
Then we have a handful who are truly terrible. Truly. Rashford and AWB must be right up there as the worst in the league. I reckon there are amateurs better in the air than those two.
Matic in relation to his size is rubbish as well.
The reverse to your overly dramatic comment is that we have the worst management and coaching team in the entire league, which quite obviously isn’t the case.
If you have a factual argument backing up why our players are actually very good in the air and it’s the manager who’s somehow holding them back, then by all means share your wisdom.
I kinda agree with this ratings.
It is very much a coaching issue, more so because of personnel issues. If you have a bunch of vidic/ramos/ronaldo's in the squad i doubt you need too much coaching.
Yes I know it's early days for Cavani but he is one of the best headers of the ball and is very good even at the near post. Maguire on the other head invariably head the ball but never has the direction.
So if we don't improve or change the way we take corners and free kicks after the start of the new season then there is no way that the coaches can pass the buck. It's entirely on them.
My question is why don't we take the near post corner? Surely even Maguire can be at the near post and flick it so at least the option is there for another player to score.
I remember early on a near post flick involving Martial and Lindelof. I can't remember which one of them scored and I thought why don't we do it often?
So if we don't improve or change the way we take corners and free kicks after the start of the new season then there is no way that the coaches can pass the buck. It's entirely on them.
My question is why don't we take the near post corner? Surely even Maguire can be at the near post and flick it so at least the option is there for another player to score.
I remember early on a near post flick involving Martial and Lindelof. I can't remember which one of them scored and I thought why don't we do it often?
Why is that outrageous? well it would be quite something. Considering the squad is worth 500% more than the lower squads, also its been posted in the thread comparisons about other teams players and as much "hate" as our players get for being small or weak other teams have them as well. Just look at City who are the 2nd best overall and 1st at defending set pieces this past season. They got players like Cancelo, Zinchenko, Gundogan, KDB, Foden, Mahrez, Sterling, Bernardo Silva, Fernandinho...I mean does any of them seems specially good in the air? They're actually the "shortest" squad in the league with an average of 1.79M (5' 87"). Is it because they're really good coached or they simply have innate talent?
I find really hard to believe that this is this squad potential to score and defend set pieces, and find funny that some people do think its because due to talent and not due to coaching.
Which of our players transfer fee was in anyway related to how good in the air they are? Maguire? Who beyond that? Even De Gea's value isn't linked to how good he is in this regard. If it was he'd be worth about fifty quid.
For this squad it's value is in no way linked to how good in the air it is.
It's not always about height either. AWB, Rashford and Matic are plenty tall enough.
Rashford is taller than Steve Bruce. Lindelof about the same height maybe. Who do you want heading the ball out of the three?
Pogba and Matic help but they haven't played enough. Pogba also struggles to track his man. Always has.
Ultimately it's about bravery and aggression. With those two attributes in mind I see no reason why we shouldn't be the worst in the league. Few of our lot will put their head or body where it hurts.
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Is there a better forward in the air than Cavani?
Coaching Staff for sure. It's one of my biggest issues with our current management set-up.
We have been having this problem for a long time and it's arguably getting worse.
We have been having this problem for a long time and it's arguably getting worse.
I have re-watched all set piece goals we conceded. I can’t say they had to do with lack of bravery. Aggression in some of them maybe. But overall it more looks like very poor organisation and that nobody seems to know what to do.
And “our lot” as you seem to think are cowards; we conceded 10-11 setpiece goals per season also 10 years ago, so if that’s true our players been cowards for a decade.
For scoring goals, he’s for sure one of the absolute best out there. He is amazing at going for the first post and his runs are exceptional. Reminds me of Henrik Larsson but even better. There are no excuses we can’t score more goals with him and Maguire in the team. In two years Maguire has scored 3 PL goals compared to Lindeof 2, how is that even possible? And then 95% of all corners aim for Maguire. It’s possible because all defensive attention is on Maguire. Plus I have really started to doubt his ability to aim. Great at winning aerials, not so good at aiming.
By starting to vary our corners and not only aim for Harry, it will take some attention off him, and I’m sure his goals will start to come.
@A-man maguire is marked tightly because they know that he is the danger man at corners
Have we ever scored from a Luke Shaw corner?
Well if by factual you mean stats, here it is.
| Team | Aerial battles won | Player with most aerial battles won | Aerial Won % |
| Everton | 674 | Calvert-Lewin - 154 | 56.70% |
| Manchester United | 552 | Maguire -135 | 56.10% |
| Manchester City | 485 | Rodri - 80 | 53.90% |
| Chelsea | 576 | Zouma - 87 | 52.70% |
| Westham | 757 | Soucek - 234 | 52.40% |
| Aston Villa | 736 | Ollie Watkins - 136 | 51.50% |
| Burnley | 888 | Tarkowski - 165 | 51.40% |
| Wolves | 581 | Dendoncker - 85 | 51% |
| Tottehnham | 625 | Dier - 86 | 50.30% |
| Crystal Palace | 693 | Benteke - 205 | 50.20% |
| Leicester | 614 | Evans - 93 | 49.70% |
| Fullham | 652 | Joachim Andersen - 99 | 49.60% |
| Leeds | 552 | Liam Cooper - 96 | 49% |
| Westbrom | 725 | Darnell Furlong - 119 | 48% |
| Brighton | 539 | Dan Burn - 96 | 47.80% |
| Liverpool | 543 | Nathan Philips - 96 | 47.70% |
| Sheffield United | 725 | McBournie - 139 | 47.40% |
| Newcastle | 649 | Joelinton - 83 | 47.30% |
| Arsenal | 515 | Rob Holding -72 | 45.90% |
| Southampton | 534 | Vestergaard - 98 | 43.50% |
We are the second best team on aerials won %, we have Maguire who's on the top 10 in the league on aerials. We are not weak in the air, we just suck at set pieces, all the evidence points to that.
Look at post 143, I just posted our team stats about aerials won. Surprisingly we are actually quite efective on aerial duels, ranking second best in the league. This is not a thing about us having weak players that can't win headers.
This is the point I have been making all the time. A long corner for Maguire is always going to be difficult because he is going to be tightly marked. Make it a near post flick and the variations open up for everyone. It is simple because the opposition players marking our players cannot judge where the ball it is going to end up before it is flicked at the near post. Once it is flicked at the near post, they have a much shorter time to make a judgement as the ball has a much shorter distance to travel rather than a ball coming from the corner flag.
It's still nowhere near enough context to conclude anything from about how strong we are in the air.
- why is Southampton's lowest? Do they play a lot of low% balls, crosses maybe?
- ours is heavily dependent on Maguire, over 25% of all our headers won. Twice as many as the next guy in our squad (Lindelof). Also more than twice as many as Dias to give an indication of workload.
- avoid/mark Maguire on a set piece, good chance of success?
- do attacking headers have a higher % than defensive?
Yes, but also because we hit every single corner towards him. Never any variation, never anything unexpected. They could basically mark him with their three best aerial defenders. Some variation would help. Besides, Cavani is probably even better at scoring corner goals.
Pretty textbook example of cherrypicking some meaningless stats to back up whatever vague theory you have. You have zero context or understanding of that table.
Several probably if combining attacking and defending.
But either way he's not been on the pitch enough.
% of headers won doesn't really sum it up for me.
It's not just headers for a start. We've conceded quite a few on the ground. It's being on the front foot, anticipation, desire to win a ball you might not be favourite to.
Then a large chunk of our headers won are down to one player. After Maguire it's a sizeable drop off.
Then there's going for headers in the first place. I'd imagine in midfield Matic wins a good share of the easier types of aerial duels. Would you trust him in either box though when there's heads and elbows flying around? The evidence says you shouldn't.
Where did you watch a compilation of set piece goals? Wouldn't mind seeing that.
I wouldn't call them "cowards." I like the players as a bunch.
But I'd class aggression and bravery as the same thing and there's a lack of it.
Ultimately controlling each box relies on about 4 players. The keeper, both centre backs and maybe a midfielder/striker.
Right now you can't tell me De Gea and Lindelof are brave or aggressive. As goalkeepers and centrebacks go I'd say they're as tentative as they come at the top level. That's half your pen box unit way below the level needed.
Swap those two for Bruce and Schmeichel. You don't think we'd immediately improve in this area?
I think its a pretty good indicator of how good we are in the air, duels won alone does not tell the full picture but average duels won does help. I do agree that having Maguire with 25% can be seen as a weakness if looked at it like we depend too much on him, but its also a strenght it means we have a player that wins a hell lot of duels by himself.
To put into some perspective to the starting XI of each team.
Duels won:
City's defenders: Dias (62), Laporte (42), Stones (38), Cancelo (30), Zinchenko (29), Walker (27), Ake (24), Mendy (8), Eric Garcia (3).
ManUtd defenders: Maguire (135), Lindelof (64), Shaw (38), AWB (38), Bailly (24), Telles (17), Tuanzebe (6), TFM (1).
All our defenders have more aerials duels won than City, if comparing one by one. Maguire vs Dias, Lindelof vs Laporte, Shaw vs Zinchenko, AWB vs Cancelo. Allthough it can be argued that us rotate much less than they do, so probably we would have to add Stones stats with Laporte and Cancelo's with Zinchenko's. My point is our defenders with more duels and more in average than most of the other defenders on the league. Thus why we dont conceed many headed goals.
Now on the offensive side:
City's forwards: Gabriel Jesus (19), Mahrez (15), Ferran Torres (14), Sterling (9), Aguero (2), Deap (2)
ManUtd Forwards: Rashford (25), Martial (17), Cavani (10), Greenwood (6), Amad (1), Elanga (1), Shoretire (1)
While both squads are pretty poor I think we come on top of them in the offesive side as well.
Another point worth mentioning is that while we scored only 7 goals from set pieces we managed to get 13 headed goals this past season. Which rank us 4th in the league, only below Everton, Liverpool and Westham all with 15.
So how can it be possible that we have the second best average on aerials won in the league yet we are the worst at defending set pieces and we are 4th at headed goals in the league but are 14th on goals scored from set pieces?
How can City have defenders with less won duels, less percentaje of won duels and yet manage to conceed only 3 goals from set pieces? still with their forwards being nothing special on the air how did they manage to get 17 goals from set pieces?
I think its because it has to do with training and coaching, we are not particularly bad in the air. If anything we are good by all stats in efectiveness, duels won, and headed goals and still we are at the very bottom on set piece efectiveness.
Well you are free to post the stats that think prove your point, Im all up for debate. All youve done until now is trying to diminish the stats I posted but provided no back up to support your opinion.
Exactly my point, all Im arguing its that the set pieces problem is not a "players not being good enough in the air" problem. Like many have claimed here many goals conceed come from players losing their man or a player running unmarked in to the box. While our offensive set pieces seem to be always directed towards Maguire with no strategy or wit behind them.
It’s also relatively simple because it is very difficult for the defender to be first on the ball at the first post. If Cavani comes with one of his patented runs it is really impossible for any defender to win that ball, if it is has decent precision. Plus it’s normally not the best defender at the first post.
It's a solid argument and if you go all in on stats I can take your point.
But maybe this queation might make you realise this isn't a quality stats can fully explain:
AWB has won the same number of aerial duels as Stones and almost as many as Laporte. According to your figures.
Do you think AWB is therefore as good in the air as Stones and Laporte?
We will have to look into average duels won per player, but I dont think that stat is available at least not easily found. But still having that stat we could argue if the duels won were against which player a strong or weak one? so ultimately it all comes to perception. I dont think stats tells the full story as you say its clear Stones and Laporte are better in the air than AWB but what Im trying to say by posting the stats is that is very naive to think that coaching has nothing to do with it.
I mean if we cant even agree on set pieces which its one of the most heavily influeced parts of the game by coaching, then nothing can be attributed to coaching. Meaning we could all claim every single problem in any team is a players problem and coaches dont take part of it, if presented with stats to back that up we can argue "stats dont tell the whole picture".
Unfortunately there was no compilation. I am a bit of a geek and take notes during games, so I had all set piece goals conceded written down, then I re-watched them on YouTube
It was interesting to see that I couldn’t blame the same player twice for losing aerials at setpieces: it was new players responsible for every goal. That’s why I don’t believe changing a player or two would help. It is lack of organisation. Well except for goalkeeper. I really think a more active keeper would help.
There are many who lack aggressiveness like Lindelof, DDG and also several passive players who allow forwards to take free runs in our box: AWB, Fred, Rashford have all been guilty of that. But all together I think our guys look clueless. There is no plan.
I wrote a summary before on the setpiece goals:
Yeah AWB is awful in the air, nowhere near as good as Laporte or Stones. So we can see how those stats are limited.
For me I find it hard to believe managers and coaches at the top level, along with highly experienced top level defenders/goalkeepers, can't organise a backline. It almost seems impossible. How can they not know how to do it?
So it seems much more likely to me that we have a bunch of players who know the theory, know exactly what they should be doing but just lack that physicality, concentration and aggression to put it into practice.
We've seen Pogba and Matic, numerous times, fail to track their man(former) or be weak in the air(latter). Do you think those two, two of our most experienced, don't know in theory what they should be doing?
Look at Klopps early Liverpool team. Rubbish at set pieces. Did they get better because Klopp suddenly discovered how to organise a back line or was it because they signed a strong centre back and goalkeeper? If not the latter that would be some coincidence.
If De Gea was willing to come for crosses with confidence (punch, catch, challenger the attacker), he'd allow the defence to hold a higher line, which would make all free kicks less dangerous.
But he doesn't, so crosses come into the box and are always dangerous, hence we conceded a lot from them.
But he doesn't, so crosses come into the box and are always dangerous, hence we conceded a lot from them.
I feel De Gea and coaching are the biggest reasons why we struggle on set pieces over many years.
For me there are too many variables to try to link average aerials won across the whole pitch in different scenarios to specifically linking it to goals on set pieces.
On understat for corners we have an expected goals conceded of 5.29 but actually conceded 9. That could easily be put down to bad luck / unusually clinical finishing from the opposition rather than stretching it to being a coaching problem.
You only need to watch an actual game or two to get a sense of who’s good in the air or not.
I agree that aerials all over the pitch don’t translate to skills at defending corners. There is so much movements, zones, etc that are unique compared to other situations.
Of the 9 corner goals we actually won 3 of the aerials.
1. Lindeof won aerial but headed the ball in the face of McGoldrick and it bounced back in to our goal.
2. Harry cleared it but straight to opponents foot who shot goal.
3. Henderson cleared it to a Liverpool player and after some chicken house defending, Jota scored.