Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

[Eriku]

Got into a discussion with a friend of mine who followed the situation in Syria ridiculously closely. I mean well beyond headlines in national papers. He’s scared shitless by the prospect of people returning solely because they have citizenship.

My main issue is that it’s a hell of a precedent to refuse their right to return. If there are laws you can use to strip them of citizenship, or if you can make use of the courts upon their return to incarcerate them, that’s one thing, but to circumvent the laws of the land because they’re dangerous? feck that.

I don’t want the state to have the power to nevermind agreed upon laws just by appealing to our base emotions of fear and disgust.

 

[VeevaVee]

She looks like she's quite high up on the autistic spectrum in that interview. Believing others would have sympathy for her is so delusional, and I can't believe she's still refusing to even pretend to be repentant despite now having a baby depending on her.

There really isn't much debate to be had for all the chatter going on. If she can get to a British consulate or embassy somewhere, then bring her home and put her on trial, give her baby to the grandparents/social services as appropriate.

If she can't get to a British consulate, tough shit.

Sounds more like she's been told to go for sympathy, but she's an idiot so literally just said "I think people should be sympathetic towards me". She comes across as a massive dickhead to be honest, even without the whole terrorist bit.

I’m struggling to think of any benefits of allowing her back into the UK.
I can think of a lot of downsides.

The main angle seems to be a moral one of her being British, so Britain should deal with her, but don't countries normally want to deal with a criminal themselves when the crimes have been committed in their country? It doesn't seem that great a reason, and simply saying the law will deal with her isn't up to much, considering she could be out and firing more kids out in less time than she was over there for. It feels a bit Daily Mail to say as much, but it's true, and I'm not sure I like the idea of kids being brought up in the UK by an actual full on member of ISIS. That's a very real possibility and not just a product of fear mongering media.

 

[2mufc0]

Sure, it’s definitely not realistic. It’s a shame though, because it’s quite likely that the Syrian and Iraqi victims will be forgotten if/when these people face trial in their home countries - the emphasis will be on the potential threat they pose there.

Agree, they've really suffered and should face consequences.

 

[MadMike]

The main angle seems to be a moral one of her being British, so Britain should deal with her, but don't countries normally want to deal with a criminal themselves when the crimes have been committed in their country? It doesn't seem that great a reason, and simply saying the law will deal with her isn't up to much, considering she could be out and firing more kids out in less time than she was over there for. It feels a bit Daily Mail to say as much, but it's true, and I'm not sure I like the idea of kids being brought up in the UK by an actual full on member of ISIS. That's a very real possibility and not just a product of fear mongering media.

Yeah, normal stable countries do. But Syria is not that. It's a mess of a country caught in civil war and has no capacity to deal with all these foreign cnuts on top of the local ones.

And it's not like they can abandon them in the the dessert or start executing them without facing massive backlash from their foreign backers either. Or that it would be ethical to do that either, I would argue.

 

[kotha]

I know this thread is from an UK perspective.. But what does the local Syrian who is fighting against Isis think of these foreign fighters? Do they want them going back to their home nations to be dealt with by them? Or finish them off now knowing if shit hits the roof again,all of them cant come rushing back to support ISIS..

 

[VeevaVee]

Yeah, normal stable countries do. But Syria is not that. It's a mess of a country caught in civil war and has no capacity to deal with all these foreign cnuts on top of the local ones.

And it's not like they can abandon them in the the dessert or start executing them without facing massive backlash from their foreign backers either. Or that it would be ethical to do that either, I would argue.

Very true. Perhaps something should be put in place by other countries that means these people go to prison and have to do punitive labour to help rebuild it. Seems a genuinely fair sentence for once? Although maybe unrealistic.

 

[MadMike]

Very true. Perhaps something should be put in place by other countries that means these people go to prison and have to do punitive labour to help rebuild it. Seems a genuinely fair sentence for once? Although maybe unrealistic.

Britain funding modern-day Gulags in Syria. I can see the headlines now.

 

[Pink Moon]

So the baby is born now, so bring the poor little mite back to be looked after by his family and she can stay and rot out there.

Don't want the poor kid to be infected by his mother's bile, do we?

The family didn't exactly do a stellar job of raising it's mother.

 

[2cents]

She’s now done a 180:

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[Sassy Colin]

Bollocks

 

[Sassy Colin]

The family didn't exactly do a stellar job of raising it's mother.

Did your parents know about everything you got up to as a teenager? Most rebel against their parents.

 

[Pink Moon]

Did your parents know about everything you got up to as a teenager? Most rebel against their parents.

Not sure there's much of a correlation between psychotic terrorist and teenage rebel. Smoking fags, getting drunk with your mates, staying out late, that's rebelling. Heading off to join a terrorist group in a foreign land is something else entirely.

Besides, I'm not sure how you reach that level of cnut without the people at home noticing.

 

[iluvoursolskjær]

The family didn't exactly do a stellar job of raising it's mother.

 

[adexkola]

I think part of the problem and why people don’t want her back in this country, is that they feel the laws do not adequately protect them and/or are not aligned with the majority views anymore. They also consider the politicians unable and/or unwilling to sort it out. There’s a massive disconnect over this. People don’t think the laws do justice. And I’m not talking specifically about Begum but all the cases similar to hers.

Basically, looking at precedence of this, she will come back and get 5ish years in prison. 5 years that will be a walk in the park compared to her last 5 years anyway. After which, at ~25yo, she’ll be on benefits for the rest of her life as she’s totally unemployable and a single mother. While probably still hating the country and people that subsidise her living and being a lighting rod for Islamists.

That kind of treatment would effectively be rewarding rather punishing her actions. You can see why people feel a disconnect with laws, justice and politicians.

So there are 2 issues here. First of all, this affair has exposed a loophole in the law, with regards to how crimes like these are handled. The loophole has to be closed by members of Parliament, and initiated by pressure from the public. Laws created will have to be cognizant of diplomatic and legal hurdles (how do we prevent making someone stateless? How do we guarantee suspects a free and fair trial?), but once done, this solves the problem going forward. This would be a major silver lining of this one off incident.

The more immediate issue is what to do with Shamima, and how to minimize the risk of harm to the public going forward. The feelings for revenge or punishment shouldn't come into it, or at the very least shouldn't influence her punishment. I'm not sure as to how this one gets resolved but arbitrary prison sentencing terms or extrajudicial killings shouldn't come into play.

 

[sincher]

One of the many problems with this case is that even if you accept the argument that she was a child when she went, that she deserves due process as a result, that her baby is innocent, etc., the cost of supporting her life here would be massive considering she would really need a new identity to have any chance of safety for her child and to act as any kind of mother to it, assuming she survives the jailtime she would surely get.

I am generally on the liberal side but I really think she should not be allowed to come home, at least not for a long time.

 

[hobbers]

She really is quite thick isn't she. Shame ISIS don't have a 'returning to your country of origin' PR department.

"I don't want to hurt anyone, even if I did have weapons"

"Sajid has no proof that I'm a threat, other than that I was in ISIS, but that's it"

 

[2cents]

One of the many problems with this case is that even if you accept the argument that she was a child when she went, that she deserves due process as a result, that her baby is innocent, etc., the cost of supporting her life here would be massive considering she would really need a new identity to have any chance of safety for her child and to act as any kind of mother to it, assuming she survives the jailtime she would surely get.

I am generally on the liberal side but I really think she should not be allowed to come home, at least not for a long time.

Another problem is that she is not the only Brit trying to make it home. There are likely dozens and perhaps even more than a hundred in a similar situation who will be watching how this plays out closely.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

She’s now done a 180:

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She personally may not want to hurt anyone but it's clear she has no problems with people being killed if they're an "enemy of Islam".

I think of myself as a pretty liberal person and the fact there's an innocent little baby complicates things but the more I read about the situation and the things she's saying the more I just think she can get to feck.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

She can feck right off!

 

[Sassy Colin]

Not sure there's much of a correlation between psychotic terrorist and teenage rebel. Smoking fags, getting drunk with your mates, staying out late, that's rebelling. Heading off to join a terrorist group in a foreign land is something else entirely.

Besides, I'm not sure how you reach that level of cnut without the people at home noticing.

You mean like the vast majority of parents who had no idea their teenage child was about to commit suicide?

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

She's clearly got a couple of screws missing. You can see how she could have been quite easily manipulated.

 

[Redlambs]

I know people sometimes fall over themselves to act all kindness and forgiving and all that, which is fine. Personally I'm all for looking at each case seperately and giving this woman a fair trial back here.

But are there people who actually don't see her as a threat? Because she quite clearly is. I'm fine being corrected on this, but we are talking about bringing an Isis terrorist into this country which a child who will have to be tracked for life to a family fighting for this all to happen. We can't leave her stateless (though the father and his country seem quiet) and we should trial fairly, but should we ever take surveillance off of her and those around her?

 

[Cheesy]

She's clearly got a couple of screws missing. You can see how she could have been quite easily manipulated.

Either that or just an absolute sociopath. Or somewhere in the middle.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

When you side against your own country with a hostile foreign entity and decide you want to switch back only when that enemy entity is on the verge of collapse, you can't act surprised when people question your motives and your status as a security risk.

 

[Simbo]

I've tried to pay no attention to this story and it's still boring me. Bloody tabloids wet dream it is, they won't let it die.

 

[Precaution]

She's being quoted as British citizen everywhere. Where did you read this?

This was in 2015 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31581739 i saw another article about it too the other day but cant find it

 

[MadMike]

This was in 2015 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31581739 i saw another article about it too the other day but cant find it

Ah ok. That's inconsequential though, she's still a British citizen with or without a paper passport in her hands

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

I can't tell if @RedTillI'mDead is being serious or not.

I for one think the world would be much better off under a benevolent dictatorship that would allow for surgical removal of problematic elements (I'm sure that just got me put on some sort of list), but if you claim to be a democracy bound to a rule of law, you have to follow that rule of law. You can't just waive it when it's convenient. And yes, that applies to this person that has gone over to the danger zone.

I'm being serious. No nonsense approach to Terrorism.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

She personally may not want to hurt anyone but it's clear she has no problems with people being killed if they're an "enemy of Islam".

I think of myself as a pretty liberal person and the fact there's an innocent little baby complicates things but the more I read about the situation and the things she's saying the more I just think she can get to feck.

The enemy of Islam bit pisses me off when she's trying to return to what is essentially a Secular nation. It's all well and good thinking of others as the Enemy of Islam when you're roaming around the ISIS Caliphate where anyone, even the majority of Muslims, are the "enemy of Islam", but once you leave that echo chamber if you still think anyone is going to give two shits about your beliefs - when they amount to nothing more than "feck you" - she can just, well, feck off.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

The enemy of Islam bit pisses me off when she's trying to return to what is essentially a Secular nation. It's all well and good thinking of others as the Enemy of Islam when you're roaming around the ISIS Caliphate where anyone, even the majority of Muslims, are the "enemy of Islam", but once you leave that echo chamber of you still think anyone is going to give two shits about your beliefs - when they amount to nothing more than "feck you" - she can just, well, feck off.

Exactly.

She also said she likes "some" British Values.

So some British Values she's against, I wonder what she thinks should happen to people who have those values she's against?

 

[Penna]

Exactly.

She also said she likes "some" British Values.

So some British Values she's against, I wonder what she thinks should happen to people who have those values she's against?

She presumably likes the fact that the UK is democratic, has a fair judiciary, a passport that lets you travel around the world, has long abolished capital punishment and gives her freedom and legal protection to practise her religion. Those things will all work in her favour.

Of course, she may not want those things for everyone who isn't of her mindset, but I doubt she'll say that in public.

 

[Stick]

This can't be a serious question, you're having a giggle surely.

No Mike not having a laugh. Hard line tactics against terrorists and responding in kind doesnt always end up getting the results you want. You could bring her back into the UK and spend time and money helping her get her life back on track and helping the child out too. It would cost money and the massive question is does she deserve anything like this or it could be used as a PR success story on how good the UK is and how they are welcoming etc etc... You can go one route or the other. Looking back at history when Ireland rebelled and the UK made martyrs of their rebels it didnt really help much but this could be different.

 

[MadMike]

I'm really struggling to find a semblance of sense in your posts. In the last post you asked..

Why not try and help both? She was just still a minor when she left.

Because one is an innocent baby that hasn't done anything and the other was a teenager that left to join a death cult. Being a minor is not a Get Out of Jail Free card for anything under the sun. I shouldn't have to explain that.

No Mike not having a laugh. Hard line tactics against terrorists and responding in kind doesnt always end up getting the results you want. You could bring her back into the UK and spend time and money helping her get her life back on track and helping the child out too. It would cost money and the massive question is does she deserve anything like this or it could be used as a PR success story on how good the UK is and how they are welcoming etc etc... You can go one route or the other. Looking back at history when Ireland rebelled and the UK made martyrs of their rebels it didnt really help much but this could be different.

There's a chasm of difference between hard-line tactics or responding in kind and spending millions on her protection, benefits and re-integration. And she's not the only one in that boat that you'd have to do that for. Responding in kind would be staging a public execution or turning her into a sex slave like ISIS did with the Yazidi women. No one here is advocating that. We're talking about protecting the citizens of this country first and foremost and disincentivising extremism secondly to limit life loss in the future. That's the priority here, not her.

And not to mention that there's little evidence that extreme lenience to the degree you're advocating, will aid in the fight against extremism. The parallels with The Troubles are out of place. She wasn't an oppressed soul who was fighting for her rights and freedom in her land. She left to join a fight that wasn't hers, in a land she was neither born in nor she had any relationship with, for a group of people that were murdering thousands of civilians predominantly of the same religion as hers. You can't free someone from imaginary oppression.

 

[Cloud7]

Being a minor is not a Get Out of Jail Free card for anything under the sun. I shouldn't have to explain that.

Honestly, reading the CAF at times I get the feeling that many consider being a minor should always exclude you from facing the consequences of your actions. Not just in this thread, but in things regarding racism and other events.

I agree with you, being a minor is not a get out of jail free card. At the age of fifteen you have enough of a working brain to understand what a group like ISIS does. I swear, people talk about teenagers as if they have the brains of 3 year olds on here.

18 year old? Throw the book at them! 15 year old? The poor baby. He/she had no idea what they were doing.

 

[Mogget]

There's a chasm of difference between hard-line tactics or responding in kind and spending millions on her protection, benefits and re-integration. And she's not the only one in that boat that you'd have to do that for. Responding in kind would be staging a public execution or turning her into a sex slave like ISIS did with the Yazidi women. No one here is advocating that. We're talking about protecting the citizens of this country first and foremost and disincentivising extremism secondly to limit life loss in the future. That's the priority here, not her.

Apart from that one poster who wants her to be tortured.

 

[oates]

Honestly, reading the CAF at times I get the feeling that many consider being a minor should always exclude you from facing the consequences of your actions. Not just in this thread, but in things regarding racism and other events.

I agree with you, being a minor is not a get out of jail free card. At the age of fifteen you have enough of a working brain to understand what a group like ISIS does. I swear, people talk about teenagers as if they have the brains of 3 year olds on here.

18 year old? Throw the book at them! 15 year old? The poor baby. He/she had no idea what they were doing.

There's no hard and fast rule to some supposed level of maturity of teenagers, in this case a 15 year old. Maybe you can remember being 15 and that you were quite mature. Certainly we expect children over the age of ten to know the difference between right and wrong and they can be tried differently in courts etc. However teenagers even knowing right from wrong frequently make the wrong choices. I guess that is where maturity comes in.

I don't know if you've watched any of the interviews with Shamima but she comes across as what we used to be able to call "a bit thick" but instead maybe suggest she could be learning disabled, or just immature. At 19 making the choices she has but making them at 15 and living in a very different culture, a war zone at times, her maturity may not have developed much further. It would be nice to know the facts. One poster has suggested she may be autistic. Possibly. From her eye contact movements and speech, she could be on the spectrum. We don't know.

I haven't seen anyone with even an ounce of compassion or old fashioned 'sympathy' though not suggest that she needs to face our justice system, she did after all make the choices she has taken. We can still have compassion without forgetting what she has done. Forgiveness is entirely separate.

PS. Also meant to suggest that as she comes across she may have some level of PTSD. Might not change much but may go some way to explaining the way she is coming across. However, we still don't know.

 

[MadMike]

Apart from that one poster who wants her to be tortured.

Alright, I stand corrected, there's one lunatic

 

[Stick]

I'm really struggling to find a semblance of sense in your posts. In the last post you asked..



Because one is an innocent baby that hasn't done anything and the other was a teenager that left to join a death cult. Being a minor is not a Get Out of Jail Free card for anything under the sun. I shouldn't have to explain that.



There's a chasm of difference between hard-line tactics or responding in kind and spending millions on her protection, benefits and re-integration. And she's not the only one in that boat that you'd have to do that for. Responding in kind would be staging a public execution or turning her into a sex slave like ISIS did with the Yazidi women. No one here is advocating that. We're talking about protecting the citizens of this country first and foremost and disincentivising extremism secondly to limit life loss in the future. That's the priority here, not her.

And not to mention that there's little evidence that extreme lenience to the degree you're advocating, will aid in the fight against extremism. The parallels with The Troubles are out of place. She wasn't an oppressed soul who was fighting for her rights and freedom in her land. She left to join a fight that wasn't hers, in a land she was neither born in nor she had any relationship with, for a group of people that were murdering thousands of civilians predominantly of the same religion as hers. You can't free someone from imaginary oppression.

I thought my posts were clear enough. I would show compassion and let both return to the UK but I would still punish the mother by the letter of the law and try and help both of the individuals. It might not make sense to you and it seems I'm very much in the minority here but that would be my take on it. I can understand you not wanting to draw parallels with the troubles and that's fair enough but trying to understand why this young girl turned to ISIS and completely against the British way of life may help you guys in the long run and prevent future terrorist attacks. Just a suggestion and a different way of looking at it. I'm not trying to get your back up here.

 

[Stick]

There's no hard and fast rule to some supposed level of maturity of teenagers, in this case a 15 year old. Maybe you can remember being 15 and that you were quite mature. Certainly we expect children over the age of ten to know the difference between right and wrong and they can be tried differently in courts etc. However teenagers even knowing right from wrong frequently make the wrong choices. I guess that is where maturity comes in.

I don't know if you've watched any of the interviews with Shamima but she comes across as what we used to be able to call "a bit thick" but instead maybe suggest she could be learning disabled, or just immature. At 19 making the choices she has but making them at 15 and living in a very different culture, a war zone at times, her maturity may not have developed much further. It would be nice to know the facts. One poster has suggested she may be autistic. Possibly. From her eye contact movements and speech, she could be on the spectrum. We don't know.

I haven't seen anyone with even an ounce of compassion or old fashioned 'sympathy' though not suggest that she needs to face our justice system, she did after all make the choices she has taken. We can still have compassion without forgetting what she has done. Forgiveness is entirely separate.

PS. Also meant to suggest that as she comes across she may have some level of PTSD. Might not change much but may go some way to explaining the way she is coming across. However, we still don't know.

I wouldn't allow my 15 year old self wire a plug when I think back!

 

[oates]

I wouldn't allow my 15 year old self wire a plug when I think back!

I can think of some people on here who might have been born old. I meet some young people who are very mature. It isn't always the case.