Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

neverdie

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jezbollah
you know the group you're referencing are semitic, right? and resistance/freedom fighters in various contexts over many decades? or are you saying that because corbyn was on the right side of history, you know, against apartheid israel, which everyone in the world has more or less come to recognise constitutes an admixture of straight apartheid, quasi-apartheid, and general cultural genocide, that because he was and is against this regime that he is in somehow bad or to be conflated with paramilitaries which also have had to fight against settler colonial encroachment?

"labour and conservative friends of apartheid" is the side you find yourself on. nice. but then again i forget that you're essentially a thatcherite who trolls consistently regardless of topic, so why would this one be different?
 

sun_tzu

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you know the group you're referencing are semitic, right? and resistance/freedom fighters in various contexts over many decades? or are you saying that because corbyn was on the right side of history, you know, against apartheid israel, which everyone in the world has more or less come to recognise constitutes an admixture of straight apartheid, quasi-apartheid, and general cultural genocide, that because he was and is against this regime that he is in somehow bad or to be conflated with paramilitaries which also have had to fight against settler colonial encroachment?

"labour and conservative friends of apartheid" is the side you find yourself on. nice. but then again i forget that you're essentially a thatcherite who trolls consistently regardless of topic, so why would this one be different?


Sorry can't hear you over the antisemitism pouring out of the picture.

Surprising corbyn didn't pick it up of he's always on the right side of history
 
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2cents

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I get that Shamima's British citizenship should not have been revoked.

What I don't understand is why can't she get a fair trial in Syria? After all, all her acts of commission was performed in Syria.
Last I checked she was being held in territory controlled by the Kurdish SDF. There doesn’t seem to be much inclination on their part to put their ISIS detainees on trial. Perhaps they lack the capacity.

Even were she too fall into Syrian government hands somehow, a fair trial would be extremely unlikely given the nature of that regime. As it stands there’ll be no justice served in Syria.
 

devips

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Last I checked she was being held in territory controlled by the Kurdish SDF. There doesn’t seem to be much inclination on their part to put their ISIS detainees on trial. Perhaps they lack the capacity.

Even were she too fall into Syrian government hands somehow, a fair trial would be extremely unlikely given the nature of that regime. As it stands there’ll be no justice served in Syria.
Fair trial is not possible in Syria is the kind of presumption that makes American intervention in Iraq or Afghanistan possible. Civilised societal behaviour in that kind of presumptive mindset becomes the sole domain of western nations.If a crime has ocurred in Kurdish lands/Syria, how is a fair trial possible in faraway England?

Give Shamima her citizenship back, but let her stand trial in the country she has allegedly committed her crimes.
 

NotThatSoph

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I don't think it is inconsistent to say that she no longer has the rights of a British citizen, or that the rule of law and protection of rights that exist here are no longer extended to her. It's only inconsistent if she is considered the same as every other criminal, such as your typical lowlife found within our borders.

But unfortunately for her, she is not the same and that is the basis for stripping her citizenship - she is indeed "special." She fought against British people from the confines of another state, contributed to a regime that attacked British people, supported further attacks against British people. Mainly because they were indeed white, and British and not for reasons of pure criminality, so it is a great irony you now have the race card being played and that having renounced and fought against everything we stand for, we should now extend an olive branch.

The only inconsistency is that we've tried other members of ISIS that made it back here. In my opinion if we had the option to let them rot elsewhere it should have been duly taken, but they made it back and now we have to deal with them.
Just to be clear, what you're describing as an olive branch is upholding human rights and following international law.
 

Abraxas

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Just to be clear, what you're describing as an olive branch is upholding human rights and following international law.
Perhaps it is, but unless we can actually conduct a trial with access to reliable evidence then we risk welcoming back a known terrorist into our communities. That is the irony, the fact that our systems and the relative decency of them compared to many countries across the world which were wholly rejected by people of her ilk have a chance of protecting somebody absolutely not worthy of anything but the strictest punishment.

Not because she isn't a deplorable scrote, but because it is inherently difficult prosecution due to actions of her own choosing. Absolutely not worth it to me and I would imagine many that would have to live alongside her in Britain.
 

2mufc0

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Perhaps it is, but unless we can actually conduct a trial with access to reliable evidence then we risk welcoming back a known terrorist into our communities. That is the irony, the fact that our systems and the relative decency of them compared to many countries across the world which were wholly rejected by people of her ilk have a chance of protecting somebody absolutely not worthy of anything but the strictest punishment.

Not because she isn't a deplorable scrote, but because it is inherently difficult prosecution due to actions of her own choosing. Absolutely not worth it to me and I would imagine many that would have to live alongside her in Britain.
She would get locked up for a consedrable time, there's people out there who have been jailed for just having pdf's on their computers.
 

neverdie

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Sorry can't hear you over the antisemitism pouring out of the picture.

Surprising corbyn didn't pick it up of he's always on the right side of history
did you ever look at that mural in detail? as to who was represented? because it's a series of people and they're not all jewish. is it clumsy? yes. is it anti-semitic? you could make that argument in isolation but then you'd have to explain why only two jewish people are represented. it's a depiction of the most prominent capitalists in western history of the past two centuries. if you pair each profile with picture, you'll see distortion in each person represented, not just the jewish.

https://bobpitt.org.uk/antisemitism-the-brick-lane-mural-and-the-stitch-up-of-jeremy-corbyn

that's a rather comprehensive post on the topic. not that i suspect you'll be interested in nuance when it comes to your avowed enemy.

i don't think you care if he's antisemitic or not, which he isn't and never has been, as his support for groups like hezbollah would demonstrate, but you just don't like his socialist policies, being, as i said, a general thatcherite with right wing economic positions. so much so that up until today the long defeated ex-leader of labour is your biggest issue in political debate. get over it.
 

Abraxas

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She would get locked up for a consedrable time, there's people out there who have been jailed for just having pdf's on their computers.
The prison service is in a state of disarray, I have friends working in them and they are in total despair due to overcrowding and underfunding. If the public knew even a quarter of what goes on in prisons or had to work a day in there they would be appalled. Most people could not do that job for the toll it takes on people.

The reason we can administer human rights or international law at a societal level is we commit resources to doing so, which is also one of the reasons why it is imperfectly done
and isn't so simple in practice, just like everything with government. It's always a balance of the governments moral outlook, competency but also resources.

So maybe if we chuck her in prison and throw away the key we have ticked a box in law, but we also act against the interests of many others in society. The people that have to pay to try her, feed her, house her, and run around prisons. The people in our own country who are not receiving basic rights because of funding. Or the ones that have to live alongside her if you're not right.

It's an imperfect tool the government are using for sure. It's not totally free of moral dilemma but prison is not this home run.
 

2cents

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let her stand trial in the country she has allegedly committed her crimes.
The SDF are not prepared to do it. They have around 70,000 ISIS men, women and children to deal with, in very difficult conditions. Moreover they are a battle-hardened militia with more fighting likely ahead of them.

An international tribunal has been mooted as one possible solution, you can read about it here -https://syriaaccountability.org/a-t...national-security-and-human-rights-emergency/
 

neverdie

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In your reality is that mural antisemitic?
you can read it that way. i think it's clumsy. it distorts the features of all people present, including the gentiles and non-semites, but within the general context of world history individualizing capitalism in that way is not a smart thing to do, and in that sense i can see why some would protest. i get the general anti-capitalist message but you could do it in different ways that don't involve caricatures. i don't think it is anti-semitic but i don't have a problem with anyone who thinks or argues the opposite as i'm not deaf to the history of caricature within anti-semitic contexts.

i remember first seeing it, years ago, and thought it was anti-semitic. i then looked at the artist, the subject, the people present, and the general bigger picture. which leads me to conclude that you can read it as anti-semitic but there is nothing inherently anti-semitic about it, once you factor in that all people are subject to the same distortion, and not in the anti-semitic fashion typified by nazi germany.

of course, the broader point is that corbyn himself is not and has never been anti-semitic and that the forde report found anti-semitism was weaponized by factions within the labour party. everyone with a brain knew this already, not to mention the tories and general tory media going along for the ride, but to have it pointed out in a bipartisan internal report is nice. i'm assuming you don't acknowledge this?

but this is the wrong thread and you've been clinging onto an irrational hatred of corbyn for as long as i can remember so probably not best place to discuss it.
 

devips

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Frosty

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Shamima Begum trafficked by IS to Syria for sexual exploitation, court hears

Shamima Begum, who left the UK for Syria as a teenager to join the Islamic State group, was a victim of human trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation, a court has heard.

Ms Begum travelled to Syria in 2015, with her citizenship stripped on national security grounds in 2019.

A five-day immigration hearing is considering a new attempt to challenge the removal of her UK citizenship.

The Home Office insists she continues to pose a threat to national security.

The case is being heard at the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC), which can hear national security evidence in secret if necessary.

Lawyers for Ms Begum, now 23, told the court that a decision by the then home secretary, Sajid Javid, to remove her British citizenship was unlawful, as it did not consider whether she had been a child victim of trafficking.

She remains in a camp controlled by armed guards in northern Syria, nearly eight years after running away from home in London aged 15 alongside two other east London schoolgirls - Kadiza Sultana, 16, and 15-year-old Amira Abase.

In August, a BBC News investigation revealed Ms Begum was smuggled into Syria by an intelligence agent who was working for Canada at the time. The Canadian government has said that it will "follow up" on the allegations.

Once in Syria, she married a Dutch recruit and lived under IS rule for more than three years. In 2019, she was found by The Times newspaper, nine months pregnant, in a Syrian refugee camp. Her baby later died of pneumonia and Ms Begum said she had previously lost two other children.

In an interview with BBC News in September 2021, Ms Begum said she would regret joining the Islamic State group (referred to as IS, ISIS and ISIL) for the rest of her life and offered to help the UK fight terrorism.

Ms Begum previously said the 2017 Manchester Arena bombing, in which 22 people - some of them children - were killed in a bombing claimed by IS, was similar to military strikes on IS strongholds and called the terror attack "retaliation".

Ms Begum's lawyers argued in court on Monday that the evidence she was a child victim of trafficking is "overwhelming" and that "depriving her of her British citizenship was a disproportionate means of addressing any alleged national security risk".

Samantha Knights KC said: "At its heart this case concerns a British child aged 15 who was persuaded, influenced and affected with her friends by a determined and effective ISIS propaganda machine."

She added that "inadequate and over hasty steps were taken to deprive her of her citizenship forever within a week of her being interviewed by a UK journalist".

Lawyers for the Home Office argued the decision to deprive Ms Begum of her citizenship was correct, saying that when she fled from IS territory "she left only for safety and not because of a genuine disengagement from the group".

They told the court that, in "multiple press interviews" before Mr Javid made his decision, she expressed "no remorse and said she did not regret" joining a terrorist organisation - also arguing she had acknowledged she was "aware of the nature of the group when she travelled".

A formal assessment made by the UK security service MI5 says that people who travelled to IS controlled "will have been radicalised and exposed to ISIL's extremism and violence", with the security service further assessing anyone returning "will present a national security threat to the UK".

MI5 assessed that her "activities prior to and during her travel to Syria demonstrated determination and commitment to aligning with ISIL".

The Home Office also said that information given to the police in November 2015 "indicated that Ms Begum did not share Ms Sultana's desire to return home and remained supportive of ISIL following her arrival in ISIL territory".

The hearing, which is expected to last five days, continues.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63699503
 

slyadams

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A brainwashed 15 year old is trafficked abroad to service a terrorist organization and the baying mob's response is to hang her out to dry.
 

Frosty

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A brainwashed 15 year old is trafficked abroad to service a terrorist organization and the baying mob's response is to hang her out to dry.
The irony is that if she were 22 instead of 15 when she left for Syria, then Bangladeshi law states she would not be eligible for citizenship, so we could not strip her of her UK citizenship.

That would have been the case even if she were not groomed, even if she knew completely what she was doing, even if she wanted to commit acts of terror and kill as many people as possible.
 

crappycraperson

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I forgot the nuance. Is the fear that UK won't be able to successfully prosecute her for a jail sentence?
 
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