Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

marktan

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Unverified sources from the word of unverified interrogated people. If all it takes to condemn people is newspaper gossip then we live in sad times.

Call them to court and let them testify? Of course it won't happen, it's not too long ago that Bagram and Guantanamo and people like Mozzam Begg were subjected to horrors in the name of 'interrogation'.
 

ThierryFabregas

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Making people stand trial for their crimes would only be letting them off if they're found not guilty, which would mean that their alleged crimes cannot be proven to a satisfactory degree. Do you think there's no good evidence for Hitler's crimes? That's pretty messed up if so, the Holocaust is an established historical fact.
Didn't you know Hitler was abused terribly by his father and he was gay male who was so mentally malajusted he asked women to defecate on him, suffering from WW1 gas attacks and he was troubled by potentially having a Jewish grandfather in an anti-semite society. Some bleeding heart like @Jericholyte2 is definitely arguing diminished responsibility in 2022. In WW2 they took no prisoners or made sure the evidence added up. None of this 'let's let them get off so lawyers can get paid a fortune' nonsense
 

NotThatSoph

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Didn't you know Hitler was abused terribly by his father and he was gay male who was so mentally malajusted he asked women to defecate on him, suffering from WW1 gas attacks and he was troubled by potentially having a Jewish grandfather in an anti-semite society. Some bleeding heart like @Jericholyte2 is definitely arguing diminished responsibility in 2022. In WW2 they took no prisoners or made sure the evidence added up. None of this 'let's let them get off so lawyers can get paid a fortune' nonsense
So you're just lying now, and you're saying there's not good enough evidence for the Holocaust to convine a judge. A Holocaust denier''s wet dream. That probably says something about either you or the legitimacy of your stance.
 

The Corinthian

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Didn't you know Hitler was abused terribly by his father and he was gay male who was so mentally malajusted he asked women to defecate on him, suffering from WW1 gas attacks and he was troubled by potentially having a Jewish grandfather in an anti-semite society. Some bleeding heart like @Jericholyte2 is definitely arguing diminished responsibility in 2022. In WW2 they took no prisoners or made sure the evidence added up. None of this 'let's let them get off so lawyers can get paid a fortune' nonsense
What’s wrong with you?
 

Carolina Red

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This kind of remark occurs so often and I honestly can't believe how anyone of sound mind would think it's actually anything but a horribly dumb thing to say.

It shouldn't be hard to realize that the point of a fuctioning society is NOT to be like ISIS :houllier:
Ibid
Did I say that we should slowly behead her or booby trap her dead child and put them in the street so she’d see it, run to it, and then be killed? No.
 

ThierryFabregas

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So you're just lying now, and you're saying there's not good enough evidence for the Holocaust to convine a judge. A Holocaust denier''s wet dream. That probably says something about either you or the legitimacy of your stance.
Is reading comprehension not your thing? I said the defense would be 'diminished responsibiliy', the same as has been talked about this one.
 

maniak

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The reason would be

A) She commited the crimes in Syria. So they decide if they prosecute her or leave her to rot
B) She's a threat to UK citizens. She said:
Manchester Arena bombing ‘justified’ because of Syria airstrikes
C) She might get off in a court of law when she's obviously guilty. If she doesn't get off, the British tax payer will pay £100,000s to keep her in prison.
D) Justice is being done already

Listen I'm not a fan of windrush or being unfair to immigrants. I just think justic is being served already at the best possible economic price.
a) So if they just let her go free you're cool with that?

b) If she's a threat, treat her like all other threats. Trial and prison.

c) I mean, if she's obviously guilty, it should be easy to prove it in court.

d) how so? if someone kills an old lady today you don't send them to a deserted island, you accuse him and try them in a court

I'm really struggling to understand what is so special about this woman that suddenly all normal laws have to go out the window.
 

ThierryFabregas

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Unverified sources from the word of unverified interrogated people. If all it takes to condemn people is newspaper gossip then we live in sad times.

Call them to court and let them testify? Of course it won't happen, it's not too long ago that Bagram and Guantanamo and people like Mozzam Begg were subjected to horrors in the name of 'interrogation'.
The reports I've heard from Guantanamo sound abhorent. But looking at his wiki, Mozzam Begg sounds like a certified terrorist.
 

ThierryFabregas

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a) So if they just let her go free you're cool with that?

b) If she's a threat, treat her like all other threats. Trial and prison.

c) I mean, if she's obviously guilty, it should be easy to prove it in court.

d) how so? if someone kills an old lady today you don't send them to a deserted island, you accuse him and try them in a court

I'm really struggling to understand what is so special about this woman that suddenly all normal laws have to go out the window.
She's an evil mass murderer, why do we want to waste all that money on all these technicalities when we can leave where she is already being punished?

What is it with you people who want genocidal ISIS rapists getting the opportunity to get off?

You know most crims do get off when they've done it don't you?

I think anyone with a conscience should be thankful she's being punished
 

NotThatSoph

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Is reading comprehension not your thing? I said the defense would be 'diminished responsibiliy', the same as has been talked about this one.
No. You said both that there would be diminished responsibility because of abuse etc., and that they made sure that there weren't any witnesses of the Holocaust and that the evidence wouldn't add up.

You're saying that @Jericholyte2 or someone sharing their stance on Begum would argue the former, which is a lie. Then you're either claiming the latter or claiming that @Jericholyte2 or someone sharing their stance on Begum would argue the latter, which makes you either a borderline Holocaust denier or just a liar again.
 

The Corinthian

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The reports I've heard from Guantanamo sound abhorent. But looking at his wiki, Mozzam Begg sounds like a certified terrorist.
From Wiki
Following a "long public outcry" in the UK over the detention of British nationals,[3][9] in 2004, the UK government intervened on behalf of British citizens who were being detained at Guantanamo Bay. President George W. Bush had Begg released without charge on 25 January 2005, despite Pentagon, CIA, and FBI objections.[10] Begg and other British citizens who had been detained at Guantanamo later sued the British government for complicity in their alleged abuse and torture while in US custody. In November 2010, the British Government announced an out-of-court financial settlement with 16 detainees, including Begg.[11]
In 2014, British police arrested Begg, alleging terrorist activities during the Syrian civil war. Charges were later withdrawn and he was released when the prosecution became aware that MI5 had known of, and consented to, his travel to Syria.
Are you being intentionally abuse or just chatting out your arse?
 

P-Ro

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People saying she's been groomed is different to saying she's not horrible. She's been massively unrepentant and pretty loathsome with the crap she's spouted. No-one has denied that, claiming she's a charmer, regardless of how much weight they put behind the grooming argument.
People are calling her a victim. Yes, you can be a victim if you are also a loathsome cnut, but not when the thing that makes you a cnut is also the reason why she is apparently a victim.
 

maniak

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She's an evil mass murderer, why do we want to waste all that money on all these technicalities when we can leave where she is already being punished?

What is it with you people who want genocidal ISIS rapists getting the opportunity to get off?

You know most crims do get off when they've done it don't you?

I think anyone with a conscience should be thankful she's being punished
I wasn't aware wanting the rule of law to be upheld was such a strange idea.

And it's odd that you believe she's obviously guilty of horrendous crimes and at the same time believe she can get off in a court. Which is it?
 

ThierryFabregas

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No. You said both that there would be diminished responsibility because of abuse etc., and that they made sure that there weren't any witnesses of the Holocaust and that the evidence wouldn't add up.

You're saying that @Jericholyte2 or someone sharing their stance on Begum would argue the former, which is a lie. Then you're either claiming the latter or claiming that @Jericholyte2 or someone sharing their stance on Begum would argue the latter, which makes you either a borderline Holocaust denier or just a liar again.
Reading comprehension clearly is not your thing. I said the bleeding hearts would claim diminished responsibility and I very obviously implied that the Allies would make the evidence stack up against the Nazi's even if it would get off in a modern court

Maybe you're right and you and @Jericholyte2 would only defend such a murderous pyschopath like Hitler if he was a brown girl. Shrugs shoulders
 

NotThatSoph

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Reading comprehension clearly is not your thing. I said the bleeding hearts would claim diminished responsibility and I very obviously implied that the Allies would make the evidence stack up against the Nazi's even if it would get off in a modern court

Maybe you're right and you and @Jericholyte2 would only defend such a murderous pyschopath like Hitler if he was a brown girl. Shrugs shoulders
More lying, and you believe there's not good enough evidence of the Holocaust to convince a modern court, very strange behaviour.
 

ThierryFabregas

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I wasn't aware wanting the rule of law to be upheld was such a strange idea.

And it's odd that you believe she's obviously guilty of horrendous crimes and at the same time believe she can get off in a court. Which is it?
The rule of law is being upheld, you just don't like it.

And yes obvious criminals get off all the time, OJ Simpson and George Zimmerman are 2 public cases that come to mind.
 

ThierryFabregas

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More lying, and you believe there's not good enough evidence of the Holocaust to convince a modern court, very strange behaviour.
You're the one lying with such an asinine claim, I never said that once, if you think you can find such a quote by me doing so, do so. You won't be able to do so.

I think you need putting on the children's table. Maybe we can get you some crayons or something. We certainly won't put anything with words in it around you as words seems to make you have toddler paddies. I'm wondering if it's your nap time now?
 

NotThatSoph

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You're the one lying with such an asinine claim, I never said that once, if you think you can find such a quote by me doing so, do so. You won't be able to do so.

I think you need putting on the children's table. Maybe we can get you some crayons or something. We certainly won't put anything with words in it around you as words seems to make you have toddler paddies. I'm wondering if it's your nap time now?
Alright.

I very obviously implied that the Allies would make the evidence stack up against the Nazi's even if it would get off in a modern court
 

Jericholyte2

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Reading comprehension clearly is not your thing. I said the bleeding hearts would claim diminished responsibility and I very obviously implied that the Allies would make the evidence stack up against the Nazi's even if it would get off in a modern court

Maybe you're right and you and @Jericholyte2 would only defend such a murderous pyschopath like Hitler if he was a brown girl. Shrugs shoulders
Wow!
 

Gehrman

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While I agree that she shouldn't be treated any differently from Isis returnees if she were to return and stand trial isn't part of the whole problem that it's notoriously difficult to prove who did what in an Isis occupied zone in Syria in a court in Britain?
 

Jippy

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Surely those two things are contradictory and the whole point of making that argument is excusing her of her responsibility over her actions?
Not necessarily and I answering a different post.

No-one's excusing her actions per se, some just believe they're mitigated by her being groomed as a child. I'm wary of placing too much emphasis on that personally. I'm sure obnoxious people can get groomed, just as nice ones though.
My beef about this situation is with the UK government's actions, as I've made clear.
 

P-Ro

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Team UK government: If you are defending Shamima then you would probably defend Hitler if he was brown.

Team Shamima: If you don't believe she is a victim you are a racist and probably a rape apologist.

Think that sums it up pretty nicely. The feck is wrong with some of you?
 

Jippy

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While I agree that she shouldn't be treated any differently from Isis returnees if she were to return and stand trial isn't part of the whole problem that it's notoriously difficult to prove who did what in an Isis occupied zone in Syria in a court in Britain?
More the Tories posturing and trying to please the party faithful.
 

maniak

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The rule of law is being upheld, you just don't like it.

And yes obvious criminals get off all the time, OJ Simpson and George Zimmerman are 2 public cases that come to mind.
Nah, you had to make her an exception which is denying her a fair trial. That's the definition of the law not being upheld.
 

Gehrman

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More the Tories posturing and trying to please the party faithful.
It isn't just a uk issue. Same debates are had here in Denmark(not allowing return of Danish isis members male or female) and making some of them stateless.The moral debate tends to revolve around their children.
 

Jericholyte2

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Team UK government: If you are defending Shamima then you would probably defend Hitler if he was brown.

Team Shamima: If you don't believe she is a victim you are a racist and probably a rape apologist.

Think that sums it up pretty nicely. The feck is wrong with some of you?
This is the problem with all-or-nothing ideology. You’re either all the way to one extreme or another. The reality is always far more complex.

- Was she groomed? I believe yes
- Was she raped? I believe yes
- Was her removal of citizenship racially (or at least anti-Islamic) motivated? I believe so
- Did she have diminished legal responsibility as she began this ‘journey’ as a minor? I believe yes

Now, do I believe she should be given a first class ticket back to the UK, given a four bed detached house and get off with a slap of the wrist? Absolutely not!

She should stand trial for her crimes, but with the caveat of the above made into consideration.

Such binary views aren’t helpful to anyone.
 

Roane

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A girl from Derby won a legal plea of "modern slavery and grooming" .

The 16 year old was caught with bomb making and weapon making instructions.

The case against her was dropped as she successfully argued modern slavery and grooming.

Her mother had informed police that her daughter, 14 at the time, had an unhealthy interest in Hitler and had began denying the Holocaust.

She has been conversing online with a man with far right links from America.

Shamima may be going down the same route in terms of a defence.
 

That'sHernandez

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This is the problem with all-or-nothing ideology. You’re either all the way to one extreme or another. The reality is always far more complex.

- Was she groomed? I believe yes
- Was she raped? I believe yes
- Was her removal of citizenship racially (or at least anti-Islamic) motivated? I believe so
- Did she have diminished legal responsibility as she began this ‘journey’ as a minor? I believe yes

Now, do I believe she should be given a first class ticket back to the UK, given a four bed detached house and get off with a slap of the wrist? Absolutely not!

She should stand trial for her crimes, but with the caveat of the above made into consideration.

Such binary views aren’t helpful to anyone.
Excellent post
 

2mufc0

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Didn't you know Hitler was abused terribly by his father and he was gay male who was so mentally malajusted he asked women to defecate on him, suffering from WW1 gas attacks and he was troubled by potentially having a Jewish grandfather in an anti-semite society. Some bleeding heart like @Jericholyte2 is definitely arguing diminished responsibility in 2022. In WW2 they took no prisoners or made sure the evidence added up. None of this 'let's let them get off so lawyers can get paid a fortune' nonsense
:houllier: the mod who promoted you must be proud.
 

The Corinthian

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I pretty much agree, although I would point out again that over 50,000 others, male and female, young and old, rich and poor, crossing all linguistic, ethnic and national boundaries, also made the same decision. I think it’s hard to understand and uncomfortable to acknowledge that ISIS actually had that kind of broad, genuine appeal, and I’m not sure that ‘grooming’ is a useful paradigm by which to understand that appeal, however relevant it may be in this specific case.
Yea, I guess this isn't the right thread to discuss why ISIS got so much support from external borders in such a quick span of time. There's a multitude of factors that underpin it.

With Shamima specifically, it's definitely not as binary or black and white as people are making out. There's a 'recruited' angle (which might be a more appropriate word than 'groomed') which I think is quite a large determinant, as well as obviously her immaturity.
 

devips

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I get that Shamima's British citizenship should not have been revoked.

What I don't understand is why can't she get a fair trial in Syria? After all, all her acts of commission was performed in Syria.
 

sun_tzu

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I get that Shamima's British citizenship should not have been revoked.

What I don't understand is why can't she get a fair trial in Syria? After all, all her acts of commission was performed in Syria.
Didn't the Syrian regime routinely use torture and even used chemical weapons on civilians

I'm not sure a free and fair trial there seems likley?

And to be honest even in the UK I think its going to be very hard to gather any meaningful evidence and have witnesses etc so I'm not even sure how that would work
 

Glorio

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This is the problem with all-or-nothing ideology. You’re either all the way to one extreme or another. The reality is always far more complex.

- Was she groomed? I believe yes
- Was she raped? I believe yes
- Was her removal of citizenship racially (or at least anti-Islamic) motivated? I believe so
- Did she have diminished legal responsibility as she began this ‘journey’ as a minor? I believe yes

Now, do I believe she should be given a first class ticket back to the UK, given a four bed detached house and get off with a slap of the wrist? Absolutely not!

She should stand trial for her crimes, but with the caveat of the above made into consideration.

Such binary views aren’t helpful to anyone.
I agree with the point you're making about the issues with dangerously all or nothing ideologies, however, from your list that's supposed to prove how complex the case is, it does seem like you've taken a side. On every single point, your stance seem decidedly pro-Begum. In a good few of those points, she has to take some responsibility.

Interestingly, I agree that she should have a fair trial (wherever) and should retain her citizenship.
 

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Feck her. She wasn’t a child when she was in the morality police, or justifying the Manchester bombing, or letting all three of her kids die on her watch.

That’s why it’s better to just strip her citizenship and forget about her. There’s a chance she gets off because she’s been away so long, but anyone with any sense knows she’s a dangerous, unrepentant cnut, and she’s pretty much where she chose to be.
 

sun_tzu

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Didn't you know Hitler was abused terribly by his father and he was gay male who was so mentally malajusted he asked women to defecate on him, suffering from WW1 gas attacks and he was troubled by potentially having a Jewish grandfather in an anti-semite society. Some bleeding heart like @Jericholyte2 is definitely arguing diminished responsibility in 2022. In WW2 they took no prisoners or made sure the evidence added up. None of this 'let's let them get off so lawyers can get paid a fortune' nonsense
I think that's a bit overly simplistic

I think in 2022 we mostly make shitler memes whilst some top g fanbois cream themselves over his make Germany great again stuff and the jezbollah lovers turn a blind eye to it all because he hates Jews
 

Abraxas

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I don't think it is inconsistent to say that she no longer has the rights of a British citizen, or that the rule of law and protection of rights that exist here are no longer extended to her. It's only inconsistent if she is considered the same as every other criminal, such as your typical lowlife found within our borders.

But unfortunately for her, she is not the same and that is the basis for stripping her citizenship - she is indeed "special." She fought against British people from the confines of another state, contributed to a regime that attacked British people, supported further attacks against British people. Mainly because they were indeed white, and British and not for reasons of pure criminality, so it is a great irony you now have the race card being played and that having renounced and fought against everything we stand for, we should now extend an olive branch.

The only inconsistency is that we've tried other members of ISIS that made it back here. In my opinion if we had the option to let them rot elsewhere it should have been duly taken, but they made it back and now we have to deal with them.