Shinji Kagawa - Dortmund Player

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Empire

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Why would you disregard last season when so far this season under LVG the team have been worse against lesser opposition?
Because this season has had 3 premier league games and last season had 38 games.

Looking at United's past 5 or 6 seasons it appears last season was an anomaly and despite many players performing poor, I do not think they are as poor as the team showed.

As an example, I do not think Carrick's decline was so steep that he went from one of the best players in the league if not the best to well whatever he was doing last season.
 

elmo

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Sad for Kagawa, he went through 3 managers with his time with us and wasn't really given the best of chances to succeed with us. Apart from De Gea, none of our other players have actually performed up to expectations in both years.
 

Sky1981

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Because this season has had 3 premier league games and last season had 38 games.

Looking at United's past 5 or 6 seasons it appears last season was an anomaly and despite many players performing poor, I do not think they are as poor as the team showed.

As an example, I do not think Carrick's decline was so steep that he went from one of the best players in the league if not the best to well whatever he was doing last season.
Or was it carrick's incline was so spiked up he went from a solid player into one of the best players in the league and whether or not he can sustain that spike
 

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I have very mixed feelings about seeing Kagawa go. Realistically it was the only sensible option for all involved. However I always had the romantic notion that he would make it here, but I suppose I came to the realisation that wasn't going to happen over the past season or 2.

Part of me is glad to see him back at Dortmund of all teams and so happy. I wish him all the best as he can be a joy to watch. Just such a shame the way everything worked out for him at United.
Completely agree with this.
 

Loublaze

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I heard he scored 13 minutes into his first game back (closed doors friendly against an U-23 team).
 

Empire

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Or was it carrick's incline was so spiked up he went from a solid player into one of the best players in the league and whether or not he can sustain that spike
I think last season was not a reflection of his actual ability and he is better than what he showed (possibly not as good as he was in 2012 - 13. I think the team's overall performance made a lot of players look worse than they actually are, in fact most players did.

Just like I wouldn't judge the spanish team's individual quality on this world cup just gone, I'm not judging the United players on last season. I do think it was an anomaly that will not be repeated for a while.

As for Carrick, this season will show whether he is still a very good player.
 

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I think last season was not a reflection of his actual ability and he is better than what he showed (possibly not as good as he was in 2012 - 13. I think the team's overall performance made a lot of players look worse than they actually are, in fact most players did.

Just like I wouldn't judge the spanish team's individual quality on this world cup just gone, I'm not judging the United players on last season. I do think it was an anomaly that will not be repeated for a while.

As for Carrick, this season will show whether he is still a very good player.
So does the season before last season.

Carrick's average was a "Very good player", his worst and best form are too far inbetween to be called a norm, and age is not on his side.
 

Annahnomoss

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So does the season before last season.

Carrick's average was a "Very good player", his worst and best form are too far inbetween to be called a norm, and age is not on his side.
I don't necessarily agree that he'd have a bigger gap of "in form" and "out of form" than the rest. The difference is that Carrick usually takes half a season to reach his form while most players are expected to do so in a few weeks.

I am not too sure we can afford it right now, so hopefully Carrick improves on this. Previously the team was capable of carrying him through the autumn, knowing how great he is after Christmas.
 

Sky1981

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I don't necessarily agree that he'd have a bigger gap of "in form" and "out of form" than the rest. The difference is that Carrick usually takes half a season to reach his form while most players are expected to do so in a few weeks.

I am not too sure we can afford it right now, so hopefully Carrick improves on this. Previously the team was capable of carrying him through the autumn, knowing how great he is after Christmas.
I don't know if we can rely on such player

EDIT: and at 33, I don't think we should rely on him anymore. It's good if he can offer backup and rotational duties every once in a while, but I'd prefer we be ruthless and get him out of the picture and build for the future.

So what if he can still pulls the shift, he ain't getting any younger, and it's not a sin to succumb to age
 

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I don't know if we can rely on such player

EDIT: and at 33, I don't think we should rely on him anymore. It's good if he can offer backup and rotational duties every once in a while, but I'd prefer we be ruthless and get him out of the picture and build for the future.

So what if he can still pulls the shift, he ain't getting any younger, and it's not a sin to succumb to age
True. Let him have his last years of actual capability somewhere he can contribute, like Australia or China. He is quite likely surpulus here as he won't contribute any more than Fletcher does these days. Also considering that both Blind and Jones can fill in as a CM/DM should not make it any easier for MC.
 

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I don't know if we can rely on such player

EDIT: and at 33, I don't think we should rely on him anymore. It's good if he can offer backup and rotational duties every once in a while, but I'd prefer we be ruthless and get him out of the picture and build for the future.

So what if he can still pulls the shift, he ain't getting any younger, and it's not a sin to succumb to age
What are you suggesting? That Carrick doesn't have a future here?
 

Empire

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So does the season before last season.

Carrick's average was a "Very good player", his worst and best form are too far inbetween to be called a norm, and age is not on his side.
If you notice I said last season was an anomaly. That's why I do not judge players on it.

I think you will find Ferguson winning the premier league was not an anomaly.
 

Pexbo

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He doesn't.

He's 33. It's time to call it a day, at least he's not a first teamer. You can't fight age.
If he's happy with it, I think he could play another 3 years subsidising and playing as a specialist DM.
 

B20

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If he's happy with it, I think he could play another 3 years subsidising and playing as a specialist DM.
You should be looking to have a midfield that's too good for 36 year olds.
 

ivaldo

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Hey, does anyone remember Kagawa?
 

Sphaero

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Clearly he wasn't too close with Lewandowski or Gotze.
Nobody was ever too close to Lewandowski. The Pole is the prime example of someone who sees his career as a profession and nothing else, which is completely ok. He never really got attached to the club, the team or the coaches. He was a lone wolf who delivered on the pitch and is still respected for that by the supporters but was never particulary well liked inside the squad or by the supporters.

Now Götze is a whole other matter. Klopp was clearly emotionally attached to him. He integrated him in the first teams training at 16, gave him the first minutes at 17 and made him a starter with pretty much a free role in the offensive midfield a year later. He furthermore went to great lengths to develop him in a calm enviroment away from the hype and expectations the media unleashed on him, including building him up very carefully after his serious injury in the first half of 2012.

Must have felt great when the boy declared internally that the main reason for his transfer to Munich was the coach. Out of all angles Götze could have chosen to justify this transfer, a lot of them being valid reasons (joining the best team on the planet back then with a higher prestige, better chances to promote his personal career or the pure financial aspect) he went for the one which hurt Klopp the most. The once in a lifetime opportunity to play under the coach he always looked up to and saw as the ideal coach for him. I don´t care how much he appearantly admired Guardiola, Klopp did not deserve to be basically told to the face that he was not good enough anymore. When Klopp explained that with a pained look on his face in the press conference before the Madrid game in the CL the feelings among supporters towards Götze really shifted from shock and sadness to anger. Different to popular belief, the main reason for the enourmous antipathy towards Götze was not the transfer itself, but the way the whole thing was handled by him.


Coming back to Kagawa, it can´t be denied that the Japanese formed a very strong partnership with Lewandowski at the end of his first stint with us. That was never the case with Götze, though. Their repective individual abilities allowed them to play together well enough, but there was never any special synergy they shared. Infact they had their strongest spells when the other was either absent or out of form.

In theory Kagawa finds the ideal circumstances to revive his career in Dortmund, which is why he took a pay cut and turned down offers from Spain and England. He is back in his comfort zone playing under a coach who clearly rates him and for fans who love him. That alone will be a huge boost for his confidence. Kagawa could very well be a player, who needs to really feel the reassurance and trust from the club/coach to perform well and his inability seize his own destiny without it is probably the one big thing you could have fault him for at Manchester.

In terms of teammates the vast majority of the midfield is still there. Lewandowski is gone, but for him they have bought the closest thing in the Bundesliga in terms of play style (albeit with less overall quality) with Ramos. In Reus, Immobile and Aubameyang he finds several excellent targets for his through balls and key passes.

The partnership I´m the most excited about is with Henrikh Mkhitaryan, who is becoming more and more of the key player the officials hoped to be. They share several traits: They are very direct players, both in terms of passing and movement and the Armenian is one of the few offensive midfielders in the world who can at least match Kagawa´s pressing strength (an ability which was completely wasted at United). They could form a pressing unit which could be very hard to overcome. Furthermore, I think they could compliment each other very well. Kagawa is more technical on the ball and can work very well in tight places, which binds opposition and creates space for his teammates. Mkhitaryan has his strengths more in his tempo dribblings and shooting, which work the best with a bit of said space.


That is all only on paper, though. It will come down to Kagawa himself to capitalize on this second chance he was given. Klopp will have more patience with him than many others, but he still has to deliver and prove his worth again. It is not that common that a player gets such a good shot at redeeming himself on top level. A lot of it comes down to the emotionality of this transfer and United´s unability to negotiate hard.
 

Sphaero

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What a stupid video. Football doesn't work like a game of FIFA.
No, but it is normally a teamsport, where you try to find your teammate in open space instead of just pumping the ball forward or inside the box from the wing.

They were several situations there, where the man on the ball had multiple options to move the ball forward in a efficient manner and chose not to do so. It is not even like Piräus tightened up the space particulary well. United was simply unable to actually use the space by ignoring better positioned players, in this case often Kagawa who was in constant movement to create space from himself.
 

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Most of those potential passes were completely unrealistic, though. Pausing the video makes it look like the defenders were static when actually they'd often have had a good chance of intercepting. There were obviously several missed opportunities, but a video like that doesn't paint an accurate picture.

A teamsport is also about dragging defenders away from your teammates so that they have more space. You can't just highlight the passes that weren't made and ignore the passes that were made.
 

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What will be your best memory of Shinji at MUFC?
The hattrick against Norwich. It was just so classy. It also marked the beginning of what could have been the return to his old Dortmund form. From that moment and until the end of the season, Kagawa was one of our top performers. He combined extremely well with Rooney and RVP, and whenever he was given a few minutes in his favored position, he looked better than Rooney had done for years, even if it only was for brief spells.

Then came Moyes...
 

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The hattrick against Norwich. It was just so classy. It also marked the beginning of what could have been the return to his old Dortmund form. From that moment and until the end of the season, Kagawa was one of our top performers. He combined extremely well with Rooney and RVP, and whenever he was given a few minutes in his favored position, he looked better than Rooney had done for years, even if it only was for brief spells.

Then came Moyes...
He had a good chemistry with Mata as well at the end of last season (particularly in the Newcastle game), probably one of the few positive memories I can muster from that train wreck of a season.

Would've liked to see him succeed here but what's done is done, unfortunately. I hope he does well at Dortmund.
 

Trizy

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What will be your best memory of Shinji at MUFC?

I can't decide between the Evil Kagawa twitter and the preseason trip to Japan.
:lol: I completely forgot about that, every time the ball went out the live camera would go on him or they'd show a reply of something he done.
 

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Remember his disaplay against Munich in the final when they won like 5-2 or something ? I am not even exaggerating when i say that was one of the best individual performances i have ever seen, especially for the occasion and opposition. I thought you lot had signed a player who was going to take the league by storm when i watched that.
 

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Year before last he was one of the best CM's in the league. One season under Moyes where everyone was shit and now he should call it a day? He deserves another year, at least.
It's not because of last year, it's because he's 33. Even of he perform another year, we'll be prolonging the search for another first teamer to replace him, and what's the best time to do so if not this season?
 

Sky1981

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Get rid of Anderson and Fellaini, sign someone in January or in the summer. Let Carrick go after next season.
I have no problem with him playing as back up and cover. He's a great experience to have. Just that most people think he'll simply put on his jersey and playing like superman that's bothering me.

Even xavi declines
 

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Remember his disaplay against Munich in the final when they won like 5-2 or something ? I am not even exaggerating when i say that was one of the best individual performances i have ever seen, especially for the occasion and opposition. I thought you lot had signed a player who was going to take the league by storm when i watched that.
:(

I remember watching that, seeing Fergie and Phelan in the crowd and thinking "Bloody hell, we're going to get him aren't we? Finally, an end to Rooney in the number 10 role as he's pushed up front where he belongs to make way for a real creator..."

RvP signing did him no favours of course.
 
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