Shinji Kagawa - Dortmund Player

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cnaiür urs Skiötha

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
2,971
Nobody was ever too close to Lewandowski. The Pole is the prime example of someone who sees his career as a profession and nothing else, which is completely ok. He never really got attached to the club, the team or the coaches. He was a lone wolf who delivered on the pitch and is still respected for that by the supporters but was never particulary well liked inside the squad or by the supporters.

Now Götze is a whole other matter. Klopp was clearly emotionally attached to him. He integrated him in the first teams training at 16, gave him the first minutes at 17 and made him a starter with pretty much a free role in the offensive midfield a year later. He furthermore went to great lengths to develop him in a calm enviroment away from the hype and expectations the media unleashed on him, including building him up very carefully after his serious injury in the first half of 2012.

Must have felt great when the boy declared internally that the main reason for his transfer to Munich was the coach. Out of all angles Götze could have chosen to justify this transfer, a lot of them being valid reasons (joining the best team on the planet back then with a higher prestige, better chances to promote his personal career or the pure financial aspect) he went for the one which hurt Klopp the most. The once in a lifetime opportunity to play under the coach he always looked up to and saw as the ideal coach for him. I don´t care how much he appearantly admired Guardiola, Klopp did not deserve to be basically told to the face that he was not good enough anymore. When Klopp explained that with a pained look on his face in the press conference before the Madrid game in the CL the feelings among supporters towards Götze really shifted from shock and sadness to anger. Different to popular belief, the main reason for the enourmous antipathy towards Götze was not the transfer itself, but the way the whole thing was handled by him.


Coming back to Kagawa, it can´t be denied that the Japanese formed a very strong partnership with Lewandowski at the end of his first stint with us. That was never the case with Götze, though. Their repective individual abilities allowed them to play together well enough, but there was never any special synergy they shared. Infact they had their strongest spells when the other was either absent or out of form.

In theory Kagawa finds the ideal circumstances to revive his career in Dortmund, which is why he took a pay cut and turned down offers from Spain and England. He is back in his comfort zone playing under a coach who clearly rates him and for fans who love him. That alone will be a huge boost for his confidence. Kagawa could very well be a player, who needs to really feel the reassurance and trust from the club/coach to perform well and his inability seize his own destiny without it is probably the one big thing you could have fault him for at Manchester.

In terms of teammates the vast majority of the midfield is still there. Lewandowski is gone, but for him they have bought the closest thing in the Bundesliga in terms of play style (albeit with less overall quality) with Ramos. In Reus, Immobile and Aubameyang he finds several excellent targets for his through balls and key passes.

The partnership I´m the most excited about is with Henrikh Mkhitaryan, who is becoming more and more of the key player the officials hoped to be. They share several traits: They are very direct players, both in terms of passing and movement and the Armenian is one of the few offensive midfielders in the world who can at least match Kagawa´s pressing strength (an ability which was completely wasted at United). They could form a pressing unit which could be very hard to overcome. Furthermore, I think they could compliment each other very well. Kagawa is more technical on the ball and can work very well in tight places, which binds opposition and creates space for his teammates. Mkhitaryan has his strengths more in his tempo dribblings and shooting, which work the best with a bit of said space.


That is all only on paper, though. It will come down to Kagawa himself to capitalize on this second chance he was given. Klopp will have more patience with him than many others, but he still has to deliver and prove his worth again. It is not that common that a player gets such a good shot at redeeming himself on top level. A lot of it comes down to the emotionality of this transfer and United´s unability to negotiate hard.

Interesting post mate. Can`t understand the argument regarding the coach. In my opinion Klopp is the best coach and Guardiola has not done so much beside taking over winnings sides.

I still think buying Kagawa to play him behind Rooney could have been one of our better ideas. However buying RvP and trying to somehow shoehorn him and Rooney into the team had a bad impact for Kagawa. Buying Mata did not make things easier.

However the partnership between Manchester United and Kagawa is history. However I am still confused that we let him go for such a low fee. Southampton paid nearly twice as much for Sadio Mane from RB Salzburg who is not a bad footballer but a class below Kagawa.
 

Xaviesta

Full Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
11,773
Location
Camp Nou
Supports
Barcelona
Interesting post mate. Can`t understand the argument regarding the coach. In my opinion Klopp is the best coach and Guardiola has not done so much beside taking over winnings sides.

I still think buying Kagawa to play him behind Rooney could have been one of our better ideas. However buying RvP and trying to somehow shoehorn him and Rooney into the team had a bad impact for Kagawa. Buying Mata did not make things easier.

However the partnership between Manchester United and Kagawa is history. However I am still confused that we let him go for such a low fee. Southampton paid nearly twice as much for Sadio Mane from RB Salzburg who is not a bad footballer but a class below Kagawa.
I agree with you for the most part, but you've got Pep horribly wrong. At Barcelona, he took over a team what won nothing for two consecutive seasons, so he didn't take over a winning team there. At Bayern, you can make that argument, but the Barcelona side he inherited won nothing for two straight seasons. If you rate Klopp higher than Pep, that's fine, but the "Pep takes over winning sides" cliche isn't 100% correct.
 

Cnaiür urs Skiötha

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
2,971
I agree with you for the most part, but you've got Pep horribly wrong. At Barcelona, he took over a team what won nothing for two consecutive seasons, so he didn't take over a winning team there. At Bayern, you can make that argument, but the Barcelona side he inherited won nothing for two straight seasons. If you rate Klopp higher than Pep, that's fine, but the "Pep takes over winning sides" cliche isn't 100% correct.
Yeah of course I am just exaggerating. Nobody would pay Guardiola the money he receives if he was not a top coach.
However I think he is not as great regarding tactics like Mourinho or LvG and does lack the ability of Klopp to build up a winning squad from scratch.
But this is just speculation from my side.

I liked the playing style of Bayern under Heynckes much more.
 

Xaviesta

Full Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2014
Messages
11,773
Location
Camp Nou
Supports
Barcelona
Yeah of course I am just exaggerating. Nobody would pay Guardiola the money he receives if he was not a top coach.
However I think he is not as great regarding tactics like Mourinho or LvG and does lack the ability of Klopp to build up a winning squad from scratch.
But this is just speculation from my side.

I liked the playing style of Bayern under Heynckes much more.
Fair enough.
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,230
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
Pics or gtfo ;)
Unfortunately for you, his real girlfriend is not AV actress Ameri Ichinose. :lol:

Americano is probably referring to a shite article conjured up by the ever reliable Daily Mail and Mirror. The real one's name is Margaret Natsuki, a TV presenter in Japan.
 

adexkola

Doesn't understand sportswashing.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
48,034
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
Yeah of course I am just exaggerating. Nobody would pay Guardiola the money he receives if he was not a top coach.
However I think he is not as great regarding tactics like Mourinho or LvG and does lack the ability of Klopp to build up a winning squad from scratch.
But this is just speculation from my side.

I liked the playing style of Bayern under Heynckes much more.
That is false.
 

Cassidy

No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser
Joined
Oct 2, 2013
Messages
31,032
Yeah of course I am just exaggerating. Nobody would pay Guardiola the money he receives if he was not a top coach.
However I think he is not as great regarding tactics like Mourinho or LvG and does lack the ability of Klopp to build up a winning squad from scratch.
But this is just speculation from my side.

I liked the playing style of Bayern under Heynckes much more.
Tactics wise that is false, he showed great imagination with the tactics deployed Bayern's opening game of the season in fact.
As for not being able to build a squad from scratch, well that is not proven, he hasn't had a chance to fail at that yet, so saying he lacks the ability to do so cannot be proven.
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,230
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
That is false.
I think maybe @Cnaiür urs Skiötha didn't phrase it properly but his underlying assertion does resonate with a lot of football enthusiasts.

While Guardiola is a great innovater, drawing from the philosophies of Cruyff, Bielsa, Van Gaal, Sacchi - it's fair to say he's not the most pragmatic manager or tactician around. He's a bit of a purist that believes his version of football is superior and somehow ties in with the concept playing the beautiful game in its right spirit.

Fergie was like this during the first half of his tenure - those United teams had a gung ho attitude of always being on the attack and underachieved at the hands of 'negative continental teams'. But he adapted to that and built more defensively sound, organized and disciplined teams in latter years.

Like a younger Fergie, Pep needs to learn that it's not always possible to outperform your opponents in an attacking/ possession sense, sometimes you need to rake a more agricultural route. Until he shows that side to his game, I'm afraid it's hard to argue his case vs Mourinho whose teams have the ability win despite being out of form/ lacking in personnel. For Pep's sake I hope he learnt from last season humiliation at the hands of Madrid.
 

Nighteyes

Another Muppet
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
25,467
Every time he scores a goal?

MW is going to bump this thread every time he caresses one of those lovely side ways passes of his...
 

adexkola

Doesn't understand sportswashing.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
48,034
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
I think maybe @Cnaiür urs Skiötha didn't phrase it properly but his underlying assertion does resonate with a lot of football enthusiasts.

While Guardiola is a great innovater, drawing from the philosophies of Cruyff, Bielsa, Van Gaal, Sacchi - it's fair to say he's not the most pragmatic manager or tactician around. He's a bit of a purist that believes his version of football is superior and somehow ties in with the concept playing the beautiful game in its right spirit.

Fergie was like this during the first half of his tenure - those United teams had a gung ho attitude of always being on the attack and underachieved at the hands of 'negative continental teams'. But he adapted to that and built more defensively sound, organized and disciplined teams in latter years.

Like a younger Fergie, Pep needs to learn that it's not always possible to outperform your opponents in an attacking/ possession sense, sometimes you need to rake a more agricultural route. Until he shows that side to his game, I'm afraid it's hard to argue his case vs Mourinho whose teams have the ability win despite being out of form/ lacking in personnel. For Pep's sake I hope he learnt from last season humiliation at the hands of Madrid.
The difference between Ferguson and Guardiola was that Ferguson underachieved in Europe massively until he learned to be more pragmatic. Guardiola's 4 years in charge of Barcelona resulted in 2 European wins and 2 semifinals, not to mention the treble of La Ligas. Even with Bayern, despite losing to Madrid in the semi finals, he strolled to a Bundesliga title. That's an astounding record. And there are a lot of people who throw up that ridiculous comic, but one just needs to look at the state Barcelona were in before he came in and revamped the entire club, to the point that they laid down the marker in Europe for the past 5 years (damn I'm old).

The Mourinho he is compared to is more pragmatic, but can one argue he has been more successful? What did Mourinho win with Madrid? (One La Liga, Copa Del Ray) Didn't he end up trophyless last season with Chelsea?
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,230
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
The difference between Ferguson and Guardiola was that Ferguson underachieved in Europe massively until he learned to be more pragmatic. Guardiola's 4 years in charge of Barcelona resulted in 2 European wins and 2 semifinals, not to mention the treble of La Ligas. Even with Bayern, despite losing to Madrid in the semi finals, he strolled to a Bundesliga title. That's an astounding record. And there are a lot of people who throw up that ridiculous comic, but one just needs to look at the state Barcelona were in before he came in and revamped the entire club, to the point that they laid down the marker in Europe for the past 5 years (damn I'm old).

The Mourinho he is compared to is more pragmatic, but can one argue he has been more successful? What did Mourinho win with Madrid? (One La Liga, Copa Del Ray) Didn't he end up trophyless last season with Chelsea?
Fair enough. He is not inferior to Jose in a statistical sense if we tally their success. But if one compares the teams Mourinho won the European Cup with to Pep there's a stark contrast in quality. And I would like to differ on the highlighted bit :

Many people won't agree with me but it's a fallacy that Barcelona were in distress mode before Guardiola's ascension. They finished 2nd and 3rd in the Liga in 2007 and 2008, and in the latter year were edged out 1-0 on aggregate in the semi finals to what is considered United's strongest modern day team since 1999 and the one that beat Chelsea in the finals.

Besides that, the backbone of Barcelona's glory years - Puyol, Abidal, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi was passed down to Pep. I'm not belittling him in any way mind, but I am certainly of the opinion that he has yet to truly outwit other tacticians with an inferior team in a way that Jose did with Porto in 2004 and again with Inter in 2010 or Van Gaal with his Ajax side that beat some truly great and much stronger clubs. And Fergie who broke the old firm and beat Bayern and Madrid with a vastly inferior squad.

Guardiola could certainly be capable of doing it, but because his Barcelona side was so individually gifted and the Bayern team he inherited were the reigning European champions - he hasn't had the opportunity to exhibit that trait. Until he does, it'll be a grey area and doubters will have something to cling on.
 

RoadTrip

petitioned for a just cause
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
26,201
Location
Los Pollos Hermanos...
I think maybe @Cnaiür urs Skiötha didn't phrase it properly but his underlying assertion does resonate with a lot of football enthusiasts.

While Guardiola is a great innovater, drawing from the philosophies of Cruyff, Bielsa, Van Gaal, Sacchi - it's fair to say he's not the most pragmatic manager or tactician around. He's a bit of a purist that believes his version of football is superior and somehow ties in with the concept playing the beautiful game in its right spirit.

Fergie was like this during the first half of his tenure - those United teams had a gung ho attitude of always being on the attack and underachieved at the hands of 'negative continental teams'. But he adapted to that and built more defensively sound, organized and disciplined teams in latter years.

Like a younger Fergie, Pep needs to learn that it's not always possible to outperform your opponents in an attacking/ possession sense, sometimes you need to rake a more agricultural route. Until he shows that side to his game, I'm afraid it's hard to argue his case vs Mourinho whose teams have the ability win despite being out of form/ lacking in personnel. For Pep's sake I hope he learnt from last season humiliation at the hands of Madrid.
But whilst it is true he hasn't shown that side, you could also argue the case he hasn't had to. You can't blame him for thinking his Bayern side and Barcelona side have enough quality to dominate every opposition they come across. You look at that Bayern side and it certainly had the ability to out play Real last year.

If his side was clearly weaker, would he still employ the same tactics? Hard to say. But I disagree that a single hammering is enough to show he isn't pragmatic.
 

RoadTrip

petitioned for a just cause
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
26,201
Location
Los Pollos Hermanos...
The difference between Ferguson and Guardiola was that Ferguson underachieved in Europe massively until he learned to be more pragmatic. Guardiola's 4 years in charge of Barcelona resulted in 2 European wins and 2 semifinals, not to mention the treble of La Ligas. Even with Bayern, despite losing to Madrid in the semi finals, he strolled to a Bundesliga title. That's an astounding record. And there are a lot of people who throw up that ridiculous comic, but one just needs to look at the state Barcelona were in before he came in and revamped the entire club, to the point that they laid down the marker in Europe for the past 5 years (damn I'm old).

The Mourinho he is compared to is more pragmatic, but can one argue he has been more successful? What did Mourinho win with Madrid? (One La Liga, Copa Del Ray) Didn't he end up trophyless last season with Chelsea?
I think many people underestimate what he did at Barcelona. Did he take over a team in the gutter like LVG or Ferguson have? No. But that Barcelona side still needed work. And he changed a lot of things. You look at the players he sold in his EARLY tenure, the key figures at the club at the time. He shaped his side and style of play.

Not to mention, the work he did on individuals is also understated. Messi has all the natural talent in the world but it was Guardiola who took him from the wing and crested that niche for him to excel and win an astronomical number of balon d ors.
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
15,230
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas.
But whilst it is true he hasn't shown that side, you could also argue the case he hasn't had to. You can't blame him for thinking his Bayern side and Barcelona side have enough quality to dominate every opposition they come across. You look at that Bayern side and it certainly had the ability to out play Real last year.

If his side was clearly weaker, would he still employ the same tactics? Hard to say. But I disagree that a single hammering is enough to show he isn't pragmatic.
Fair enough, can't really argue with that - the sample is quite small indeed. But moving forward, if similar issues crop up then maybe a stronger case can be made against him.
 

Mad Winger

New Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
4,138
Location
#ShinjiIsFree
MW is going to bump this thread every time he caresses one of those lovely side ways passes of his...
If there ever was any doubt about your anti-Kagawa agenda:lol:

I've never been a fan of entering a player thread just to criticize the player, but at least that's understandable at times. But to consistently lurk in a player thread only to criticize not only the player, but some of the posters who rate him, is so mindnumbling pathetic that I almost feel sorry for you.
 
Last edited:

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
Guardiola is clearly better at creating the best team, but Mourinho is great at overperforming with a team worse team.

How one goes on to decide who is better all goes down to personal preferences.
 

thepolice123

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
12,179
He had a good chemistry with Mata as well at the end of last season (particularly in the Newcastle game), probably one of the few positive memories I can muster from that train wreck of a season.

Would've liked to see him succeed here but what's done is done, unfortunately. I hope he does well at Dortmund.
That's because only both of them are offering the support to each other. Our players are so static and fixated to the formation. I recall there were games Mata and Kagawa exchanged so many short passes between themselves trying to open up the opposition defence while players like Valencia and Young hung around the touchline.
 

Annahnomoss

Full Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
10,101
I think that still remains to be seen. Like Fergie, Jose etc he will need to repeat his success
I agree that the future will tell the real truth. But so far the two best teams of their both careers are both from Guardiola. It will be great to see their development though.
 

quackattack

Full Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
Messages
896
Unfortunately for you, his real girlfriend is not AV actress Ameri Ichinose. :lol:

Americano is probably referring to a shite article conjured up by the ever reliable Daily Mail and Mirror. The real one's name is Margaret Natsuki, a TV presenter in Japan.
Having looked her up I have no idea why she was not featured in the world cup wives thread (or what it was called) Or am I wrong?
 

Nighteyes

Another Muppet
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
25,467
If there ever was any doubt about your anti-Kagawa agenda:lol:

I've never been a fan of entering a player thread just to criticize the player, but at least that's understandable at times. But to consistently lurk in a player thread only to criticize not only the player, but some of the posters who rate him, is so mindnumbling pathetic that I almost feel sorry for you.
When you continuously wank off to Kagawa's supposed greatness (like you obviously do), it creates an impression that everyone who does not do the same is relentlessly criticizing him. Your obsession with him is bordering on unhealthy and creepy
 

Cnaiür urs Skiötha

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
2,971
I think maybe @Cnaiür urs Skiötha didn't phrase it properly but his underlying assertion does resonate with a lot of football enthusiasts.

While Guardiola is a great innovater, drawing from the philosophies of Cruyff, Bielsa, Van Gaal, Sacchi - it's fair to say he's not the most pragmatic manager or tactician around. He's a bit of a purist that believes his version of football is superior and somehow ties in with the concept playing the beautiful game in its right spirit.

Fergie was like this during the first half of his tenure - those United teams had a gung ho attitude of always being on the attack and underachieved at the hands of 'negative continental teams'. But he adapted to that and built more defensively sound, organized and disciplined teams in latter years.

Like a younger Fergie, Pep needs to learn that it's not always possible to outperform your opponents in an attacking/ possession sense, sometimes you need to rake a more agricultural route. Until he shows that side to his game, I'm afraid it's hard to argue his case vs Mourinho whose teams have the ability win despite being out of form/ lacking in personnel. For Pep's sake I hope he learnt from last season humiliation at the hands of Madrid.
I am sorry for starting a discussion about Guardiola in the Kagawa thread - it is out of question he is one of the very best in the world. Just thinking that Bayern lost a bit of their directness. The game against Real last year made this quite obvious - however they did not really impress in the games against us as well. 1 or 2 years before they would have hammered the team we have been last year.

My comment was related to the statement by Götze which I cannot understand.
 

Mad Winger

New Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
4,138
Location
#ShinjiIsFree
When you continuously wank off to Kagawa's supposed greatness (like you obviously do), it creates an impression that everyone who does not do the same is relentlessly criticizing him. Your obsession with him is bordering on unhealthy and creepy
Oh yeah, it's much more unhealthy to spend positive energy on defending a player on the bench than it is to spend negative energy on criticizing him and other posters who rate him:lol:
 

Nighteyes

Another Muppet
Joined
Nov 14, 2012
Messages
25,467
Oh yeah, it's much more unhealthy to spend positive energy on defending a player on the bench than it is to spend negative energy on criticizing him and other posters who rate him:lol:
Except I priased him several times in the previous thread when he played well. Not my fault he was generally average for us

Weirdo.
 

Mad Winger

New Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Messages
4,138
Location
#ShinjiIsFree
Except I priased him several times in the previous thread when he played well. Not my fault he was generally average for us
Oh you're so full of shit it's not even funny...

What are you still doing here anyway? Aren't there Shinji-doubters on Dortmund fora you should be hunting down and boring to death?
Shinji doubters on a Dortmund forum? They're not complete idiots over there, you know;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.