Shinji Kagawa - Dortmund Player

[Mad Winger]

@NessunDorma

You have to keep in mind that Kagawa missed 15 PL games, 3 CL games, and several domestic cup games because of injury, whereas he was never really injured under Moyes, apart from the time he ate too much(). Kagawa started roughly 75% of the PL and CL games under Fergie when he wasn't injured. Assuming that he would have kept that up in the games he was injured, we see that his playtime under Moyes was cut in half. And then, just as importantly, we also see just how irregularly Kagawa got to start games compared to under Fergie.

There's also no question that Kagawa played much better under Fergie. 6 goals and 6 assists in about 1500 minutes is a good goals/assist return for a winger who's battling injuries in a new league.

 

[Carl]

Despite some claims here - I still don't think its the physical play of the EPL messing with him. Under Fergie he looked getting better and better. Fergies retirement pretty much was what messed with him, because Moyes didn't know what to do and Van Gaal has a different philosophy of play.

First sentence is spot on. Nothing to do with physicality but our style of play. That said, Dortmund is perfect for him. There's not many that can match their pass and move which is what he thrives on and what we're terrible at.

 

[Wade3]

Yeah, the fecking bundesliga where Dortmund and bayern are both better functioning teams then anyone else in the prem...

Aside of the fact that there are enough teams in the BPL that function as good or better than Dortmund (Bayern is top notch, amongst the top three in Europe, no question about it), you're proving my point. It's Bayern by a mile, then Dortmund and then the rest. The BPL has more depth than the Bundesliga.

 

[Mad Winger]

I don't need to watch it, I have plenty of evidence of his failures in the BPL. Come back to me when Bayern doesn't run away with the title yet again.

Klopp's Dortmund team would easily have made the top 4 in the PL over the last 4 seasons. Most likely top 2, and maybe a title along the way.

 

[Sphaero]

I don't need to watch it, I have plenty of evidence of his failures in the BPL. Come back to me when Bayern doesn't run away with the title yet again.

Well, yeah, thats our cross to bear playing in a league with one of the best teams on the planet, which would also be the prime favourite in the EPL.

 

[bosnian_red]

Kagawa subbed off injured...

 

[Cina]

I don't need to watch it, I have plenty of evidence of his failures in the BPL. Come back to me when Bayern doesn't run away with the title yet again.

Odd comment, he won the Bundesliga in his last two seasons at Dortmund and they were in the CL final the next. Last season was the only time in a very long time Bayern ran away with it. It'd be like using us running away with it in 12/13 to say the BPL is a one team league.

 

[Bazi]

Kagawa subbed off injured...

He didn't look injured, he had cramps.

 

[Kakeru]

Well, good thing he will have the chance to prove himself vs. a team from the mighty PL on Tuesday. You guys should have time to watch, right?

From where I am on Tuesday, it will be tough to watch it live. Still, I can't wait to see him then because I hope Shinji will feck Arsenal in the ass.

Summary of his day: 63 minutes played for a first game before he earns a rest, scored 1 goal, and got an ovation.

 

[Mad Winger]

Kagawa subbed off injured...

Looked like a cramp, but I suppose he could have stayed on then?

 

[Sphaero]

Looked like a cramp, but I suppose he could have stayed on then?

Why risk it with an important game on Tuesday?

 

[Carl]

Must have been let loose at the buffet again...

 

[Randall Flagg]

Can't believe anyone is saying he was similar last season to his first.

He was settling into the side and looking good especially at the end if the season under Fergie. He never looked anywhere near that level under Moyes

I blame Kagawa as well. Players need to adapt to a club and style of football not the other way around. But I'm still surprised LVG sold him on the cheap.

 

[Mad Winger]

Why risk it with an important game on Tuesday?

Good point.

 

[bosnian_red]

He didn't look injured, he had cramps.

Ah, I looked back to the screen and saw him hopping off so thought he picked up an injury.

 

[NessunDorma]

Aside of the fact that there are enough teams in the BPL that function as good or better than Dortmund (Bayern is top notch, amongst the top three in Europe, no question about it), you're proving my point. It's Bayern by a mile, then Dortmund and then the rest. The BPL has more depth than the Bundesliga.

Even the worst Man Utd side in 25 years were able to beat Bayer Leverkusen - who finished 4th in the Bundesliga last season, and 3rd the season before - 9-2 over two games.

*Confession*

I don't watch the Bundesliga, so I couldn't say how good it is or isn't, but still . . .

 

[Balu]

Even the worst Man Utd side in 25 years were able to beat Bayer Leverkusen - who finished 4th in the Bundesliga last season, and 3rd the season before - 9-2 over two games.

*Confession*

I don't watch the Bundesliga, so I couldn't say how good it is or isn't, but still . . .

Does that mean that English Champion City finishing 4th in a group with Ajax meant the Premier League was a worse league than the Dutch league that year?

 

[Sphaero]

Does that mean that English Champion City finishing 4th in a group with Ajax meant the Premier League was a worse league than the Dutch league that year?

While being defeated by a Dortmund side fielding two regular starter...

 

[Wade3]

Well, yeah, thats our cross to bear playing in a league with one of the best teams on the planet, which would also be the prime favourite in the EPL.

Yet it doesn't take away from the fact that the Bundesliga doesn't have the same depth as the BPL.

 

[united_99]

Ofc he is going to do well at Dortmund! Has anyone ever predicted anything else?
Doesn't change the fact that we are nothing like Dortmund, play nothing like them and despite great players won't play like them anytime soon either.

Therefore Kagawa couldn't produce anything he does at Dortmund at United, whereas a player like Reus could still make a difference at United even if the team is playing badly. They are just different players.

 

[Wade3]

Odd comment, he won the Bundesliga in his last two seasons at Dortmund and they were in the CL final the next. Last season was the only time in a very long time Bayern ran away with it. It'd be like using us running away with it in 12/13 to say the BPL is a one team league.

It was obviously a reference to last season, similar to him suggesting we should have time to watch the game on Tuesday.

 

[Balu]

While being defeated by a Dortmund side fielding two regular starter...

To be fair, Leverkusen's embarrassing performances against United didn't really help the reputation of the Bundesliga on the Caf, I get that . But can't we all blame the former Liverpool player and shit manager for these games instead of belittling the league Leverkusen play in. In the end, that Leverkusen side still finished 2nd in a group with a good Donezk side and a Spanish team, not bad overall and no one seems to use the fact that a Spanish side finished last and lost twice against Leverkusen to belittle the Spanish league (which would be stupid of course).

 

[Sphaero]

Kagawa was all smiles and sunshine on the bench. Did certainly not look like an injured player.

 

[Kakeru]

To be fair, Leverkusen's embarrassing performances against United didn't really help the reputation of the Bundesliga on the Caf, I get that . But can't we all blame the former Liverpool player and shit manager for these games instead of belittling the league Leverkusen play in. In the end, that Leverkusen side still finished 2nd in a group with a good Donezk side and a Spanish team, not bad overall and no one seems to use the fact that a Spanish side finished last and lost twice against Leverkusen to belittle the Spanish league (which would be stupid of course).

Hyppia always seem to have a mare in him whenever it's against United indeed.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Meh not that bothered at all.

 

[NessunDorma]

Does that mean that English Champion City finishing 4th in a group with Ajax meant the Premier League was a worse league than the Dutch league that year?

It's a fair point. I suppose one way to judge would be to go off UEFA coefficients. In which case, England are second to Spain, with Germany in third.

Might be interesting if someone could compile a database of the head-to-head results between German and English clubs over the last few years.

 

[Tibs]

Kagawa is class, and grass is green

 

[Balu]

It's a fair point. I suppose one way to judge would be to go off UEFA coefficients. In which case, England are second to Spain, with Germany in third.

Might be interesting if someone could compile a database of the head-to-head results between German and English clubs over the last few years.

I think the UEFA ranking reflects the strength of the top leagues quite well at the moment. I don't argue that the Bundesliga is as good as the Premier League, but the gap isn't that big either. It's a quality league with some strong midtable teams. Schalke and Leverkusen regularly make it out of their CL groups which isn't easy and drawing final conclusions about the strength of the league from single games with freak results is in my opinion ignorant and stupid, especially if you look at some of the results in the Premier League between top sides. Arsenal and Tottenham had some ridiculous losses in the league last season for example. Arsenal losing 6-0 against Chelsea and finishing 4th doesn't tell a lot about the strength of the two teams or the league either, it's one game with a crazy result, that's it.

 

[Empire]

If the premier league is so strong surely we would do well in Europa league, how well do our teams tend to do there?

 

[finneh]

If the premier league is so strong surely we would do well in Europa league, how well do our teams tend to do there?

They usually field their second string. Will be interesting to see if that changes with the winners getting a CL place.

 

[Balu]

If the premier league is so strong surely we would do well in Europa league, how well do our teams tend to do there?

Not that bad, because some of your top teams really fecked up the CL groups more often than they should in the past few years . The English teams that qualified directly for the EL are pretty useless though. Fulham in 2010 was the only exception if I'm not mistaken.

 

[NessunDorma]

If the premier league is so strong surely we would do well in Europa league, how well do our teams tend to do there?

How seriously do they take it? Not very, when you see some of the teams they put out. Although Chelsea did win it the season before last.

 

[NessunDorma]

Can't believe anyone is saying he was similar last season to his first.

He was settling into the side and looking good especially at the end if the season under Fergie. He never looked anywhere near that level under Moyes

I blame Kagawa as well. Players need to adapt to a club and style of football not the other way around. But I'm still surprised LVG sold him on the cheap.

I just don't remember him being that great in his first season. Certainly not terrible, but he didn't pull up any trees. I think Fergie even tacitly conceded this when he said in the February 'There's a physicality to our game which is different from Germany but next year he'll be better'.

It's the 'he'll be better' bit that's telling, because in the context he said it, it implies he was putting in performances that needed to be.

 

[Sphaero]

It's a fair point. I suppose one way to judge would be to go off UEFA coefficients. In which case, England are second to Spain, with Germany in third.

Might be interesting if someone could compile a database of the head-to-head results between German and English clubs over the last few years.

Last five years in the CL:

Wolfsburg - United 1-2 / 1-3
Bayern - United 2-1 / 2-3
Bremen - Tottenham 2-2 / 0-3
Schalke - United 0-2 / 1-4
Leverkusen - Chelsea 2-1 / 0-2
Dortmund - Arsenal 1-1 / 1-2
Bayern - City 2-0 / 0-2
Bayern - Chelsea 4-5 after pens
Dortmund - City 1-1 / 1-0
Schalke - Arsenal 2-0 / 2-2
Bayern - Arsenal 3-1 / 0-2
Dortmund - Arsenal 2-1 / 0-1
Schalke - Chelsea 0-3 / 0-3
Bayern - City 3-1 / 2-3
Leverkusen - United 2-4 / 0-5 ()
Bayern - Arsenal 2-0 / 1-1
Bayern - United 3-1 / 1-1

What can be seen with these results is that the EPL used to be clearly superior to the Bundesliga aside of Bayern. This difference has lessened over the last years especially with Dortmund´s rise and Schalke´s and Leverkusen´s decent runs in the CL, although the last two have shown severe mentality problems at the biggest stage when it counted.

However, there is still no argument, which league has the superior depth. Germany has two clubs, which would be serious contenders for the top 4 in the EPL, while there are 6-7 clubs in England which could do the same in the Bundesliga.

The direct duels have often been very close matches, though, which will most likely be the case on Tuesday aswell.

 

[FromTheBench]

The system, league and team all suit his style better.

Expect him to do well. Dortmund got a bargain.

 

[Ekeke]

So Mkhitaryan was moved to the right so Kagawa could play his real position in the hole. He started the move for the opener with a good pass and he got on the scoresheet too.

Its all so predictable.

A bit of faith from the manager putting him into the team in his proper position and it pays off.

 

[Utd7]

Feel bad for Shinji, I have no doubt in my mind he would've been a huge success here if the opportunity to buy RVP in the summer of 2012 didn't present itself. SAF was probably thinking, Kagawa will play the Number 10 and Rooney as the striker.

 

[Sphaero]

So Mkhitaryan was moved to the right so Kagawa could play his real position in the hole. He started the move for the opener with a good pass and he got on the scoresheet too.

Its all so predictable.

A bit of faith from the manager putting him into the team in his proper position and it pays off.

Mkhitaryan plays as inward forward (we don´t use winger) for a while now. Reus is our usual CAM right now. I expect him to move to the left when he comes back, though.

Not that this does mean much anyway. Most of our offensive midfielder interchange and roam constantly.

 

[Earthquake]

So Mkhitaryan was moved to the right so Kagawa could play his real position in the hole. He started the move for the opener with a good pass and he got on the scoresheet too.

Its all so predictable.

A bit of faith from the manager putting him into the team in his proper position and it pays off.

I thought Mkitaryan was moved wide anyway as he's proving more effective there?

 

[Ekeke]

Sorry if he was moved wide before, I wasnt aware. I just posted that because I read on here a bunch of times that Dortmund dont need or want Kagawa because they have Mkhitaryan now.