Shinji Kagawa

[Mad Winger]

I think it takes a different kind of mentality to play for an underdog who are on a bit of a good run (BVB), rather than a top team.

But why does Kagawa occasionally perform so well even for us then? I know it's just glimpses compared to his Dortmund glory days, but they still come out every once in a while. Why was he one of our standout players in the CL this year? Why did he do so much better under Fergie in a season that we won, than he did under Moyes in a season where we turned into a "small" team?

A more logical conclusion is that Kagawa is very dependent on good football in order to play well. Whether this is a horrible liability to have in the starting XI or not depends on your football philosophy. I wont blame you if that's not your cup of tea. We just have different philosophies, that's all.

 

[finneh]

You can probably file Fellaini in that same category.

They're all just one of many footballers that struggle with being a big fish in a fecking massive pond.

Agreed. For all the flack Fellaini gets (ie "he's always been total shit") I said when we signed him he'd be a squad player who would give us another option. He has been a fraction of even the squad player I thought he'd be. He hasn't always been totally shit and the poor performances are almost certainly him becoming a shrinking violet.

But why does Kagawa occasionally perform so well even for us then? I know it's just glimpses compared to his Dortmund glory days, but they still come out every once in a while. Why was he one of our standout players in the CL this year? Why did he do so much better under Fergie in a season that we won, than he did under Moyes in a season where we turned into a "small" team?

A more logical conclusion is that Kagawa is very dependent on good football in order to play well. Whether this is a horrible liability to have in the starting XI or not depends on your football philosophy. I wont blame you if that's not your cup of tea. We just have different philosophies, that's all.

Kagawa tends to play well when the entire team is playing well, just as Berbatov did and Fellaini has done this year. These are the kind of player's that really irritate me personally, which maybe prejudices my opinions of them somewhat. My favourite player's have always been those who play well in spite of the team performing terrible. The likes of Keane, Scholes, Ronaldo, RVP, Vidic, Ferdinand and even Fletcher and Park Ji Sung.

Your conclusion isn't the most logical one. The most logical one is that Kagawa (like Berbatov) doesn't seem to have the mentality to put in the performances when everything isn't going his way. His head drops, he starts to play within himself, gets bullied off the ball and starts to play simple ineffectual backpasses (ie the safe option).

99% of players can play well and look good when you're 3-0 up and looking to score more. It's the 5% that raise their games and of those around them when you are 1-0 down that are invaluable. Some technically gifted players simply can't cut it at the top echelon of clubs and unfortunately I believe Kagawa to be one of those player's. If he was still a teenager or 20/21 I'd be saying he has plenty of time to become stronger mentally, but at 25 it's now or never in terms of his future at a top club.

 

[dirkey]

Agreed. For all the flack Fellaini gets (ie "he's always been total shit") I said when we signed him he'd be a squad player who would give us another option. He has been a fraction of even the squad player I thought he'd be. He hasn't always been totally shit and the poor performances are almost certainly him becoming a shrinking violet.



Kagawa tends to play well when the entire team is playing well, just as Berbatov did and Fellaini has done this year. These are the kind of player's that really irritate me personally, which maybe prejudices my opinions of them somewhat. My favourite player's have always been those who play well in spite of the team performing terrible. The likes of Keane, Scholes, Ronaldo, RVP, Vidic, Ferdinand and even Fletcher and Park Ji Sung.

Your conclusion isn't the most logical one. The most logical one is that Kagawa (like Berbatov) doesn't seem to have the mentality to put in the performances when everything isn't going his way. His head drops, he starts to play within himself, gets bullied off the ball and starts to play simple ineffectual backpasses (ie the safe option).

99% of players can play well and look good when you're 3-0 up and looking to score more. It's the 5% that raise their games and of those around them when you are 1-0 down that are invaluable. Some technically gifted players simply can't cut it at the top echelon of clubs and unfortunately I believe Kagawa to be one of those player's. If he was still a teenager or 20/21 I'd be saying he has plenty of time to become stronger mentally, but at 25 it's now or never in terms of his future at a top club.

Spot on. Very well said. Hit every nail on the head.

 

[Wumminator]

He's gonna destroy the league this year and fire us on to the prem. Can't wait.

 

[Mad Winger]

99% of players can play well and look good when you're 3-0 up and looking to score more. .

1. It's not about leading 3-0. It's about playing quick, technical, fluid, attacking-minded football.

2. It's a huuuuuuge difference between playing better when the team plays well and becoming a catalyst. When the team delivers a solid 7 out of 10 performance or higher, players like Kagawa are there to give it that extra push that turns the performance into an 8 or a 9. Does players like Valencia, Young or Welbeck do that? No.

I get it: you don't like players like Kagawa. It's been clear from the beginning. I hardly remember any usernames in here, but I remember yours. I have no issue with your philosophy, but when you suggest things like "United is too big for Kagawa" or "Kagawa is just a mediocre players who needs to be carried by the team", then you're talking bullshit. The Dortmund team that he was an important part of would have walked the league this year if they were in the Prem, with Kagawa being one of the standout performers. It's not about United being too big. It's about us playing absolutely shite football that highlights individualistic moments of brilliance, rather than actual good football.

When the team plays good football and Kagawa is on the field, then he'll be one of the top 3 performers 80-90% of the time. This was the case for Dortmund. This is the case for Japan. And this has been the case for us, even under Moyes. It's painful to admit, but Kagawa's "failure"(he's still our best winger, as sad as that is) just proves that we're lacking as a team. Put Kagawa in pretty much any other top team except for a team managed by Mourinho, and he's an absolute star. We suck these days, and thus Kagawa struggles. His off-the-ball movement becomes pointless, because none of the other players move with him. His crosses and passes become meaningless, because there aren't enough movement in the box, and the ones who receive the ball misses their chances anyways(just look at that youtube video).

Kagawa doesn't have an impressive longshot, nor set pieces. He's not particularly fast, and let's not even mention his physique. He's also never been a dribbler, nor is he comfortable out wide. How on earth do you expect a player like this to thrive in the current United team? Hell, even the likes of Silva and Iniesta would only be a shadow of themselves if we signed them.

 

[caisenma]

1. It's not about leading 3-0. It's about playing quick, technical, fluid, attacking-minded football.

2. It's a huuuuuuge difference between playing better when the team plays well and becoming a catalyst. When the team delivers a solid 7 out of 10 performance or higher, players like Kagawa are there to give it that extra push that turns the performance into an 8 or a 9. Does players like Valencia, Young or Welbeck do that? No.

I get it: you don't like players like Kagawa. It's been clear from the beginning. I hardly remember any usernames in here, but I remember yours. I have no issue with your philosophy, but when you suggest things like "United is too big for Kagawa" or "Kagawa is just a mediocre players who needs to be carried by the team", then you're talking bullshit. The Dortmund team that he was an important part of would have walked the league this year if they were in the Prem, with Kagawa being one of the standout performers. It's not about United being too big. It's about us playing absolutely shite football that highlights individualistic moments of brilliance, rather than actual good football.

When the team plays good football and Kagawa is on the field, then he'll be one of the top 3 performers 80-90% of the time. This was the case for Dortmund. This is the case for Japan. And this has been the case for us, even under Moyes. It's painful to admit, but Kagawa's "failure"(he's still our best winger, as sad as that is) just proves that we're lacking as a team. Put Kagawa in pretty much any other top team except for a team managed by Mourinho, and he's an absolute star. We suck these days, and thus Kagawa struggles. His off-the-ball movement becomes pointless, because none of the other players move with him. His crosses and passes become meaningless, because there aren't enough movement in the box, and the ones who receive the ball misses their chances anyways(just look at that youtube video).

Kagawa doesn't have an impressive longshot, nor set pieces. He's not particularly fast, and let's not even mention his physique. He's also never been a dribbler, nor is he comfortable out wide. How on earth do you expect a player like this to thrive in the current United team? Hell, even the likes of Silva and Iniesta would only be a shadow of themselves if we signed them.

I admire your interest in the player, I perhaps am similar with Januzaj. Just curious though, if Kagawa gets sold, will you still follow United? Or are you a Kagawa fan first, and United fan second?

 

[Mad Winger]

I admire your interest in the player, I perhaps am similar with Januzaj. Just curious though, if Kagawa gets sold, will you still follow United? Or are you a Kagawa fan first, and United fan second?

Though some of you might find it hard to believe, my interest in the Kagawa debate stems entirely from my interest in United. I want to see United play good and entertaining football. And I believe that the inclusion of players like Kagawa is the right way to go. Unsurprisingly, we've sucked whenever Kagawa's sucked. He's just made for good football, so he becomes almost useless when we play badly. And being United, I don't see how that should be acceptable to happen on a regular basis.

Luckily we have Van Gaal now. He ought to know where it's at.

 

[Nighteyes]

What if Van Gaal doesn't think much of Kagawa either? What would be the excuse then?

 

[dirkey]

1. It's not about leading 3-0. It's about playing quick, technical, fluid, attacking-minded football.

2. It's a huuuuuuge difference between playing better when the team plays well and becoming a catalyst. When the team delivers a solid 7 out of 10 performance or higher, players like Kagawa are there to give it that extra push that turns the performance into an 8 or a 9. Does players like Valencia, Young or Welbeck do that? No.

I get it: you don't like players like Kagawa. It's been clear from the beginning. I hardly remember any usernames in here, but I remember yours. I have no issue with your philosophy, but when you suggest things like "United is too big for Kagawa" or "Kagawa is just a mediocre players who needs to be carried by the team", then you're talking bullshit. The Dortmund team that he was an important part of would have walked the league this year if they were in the Prem, with Kagawa being one of the standout performers. It's not about United being too big. It's about us playing absolutely shite football that highlights individualistic moments of brilliance, rather than actual good football.

When the team plays good football and Kagawa is on the field, then he'll be one of the top 3 performers 80-90% of the time. This was the case for Dortmund. This is the case for Japan. And this has been the case for us, even under Moyes. It's painful to admit, but Kagawa's "failure"(he's still our best winger, as sad as that is) just proves that we're lacking as a team. Put Kagawa in pretty much any other top team except for a team managed by Mourinho, and he's an absolute star. We suck these days, and thus Kagawa struggles. His off-the-ball movement becomes pointless, because none of the other players move with him. His crosses and passes become meaningless, because there aren't enough movement in the box, and the ones who receive the ball misses their chances anyways(just look at that youtube video).

Kagawa doesn't have an impressive longshot, nor set pieces. He's not particularly fast, and let's not even mention his physique. He's also never been a dribbler, nor is he comfortable out wide. How on earth do you expect a player like this to thrive in the current United team? Hell, even the likes of Silva and Iniesta would only be a shadow of themselves if we signed them.

I disagree that he's one of the top 3 performers 80-90% of the time. What I find is that the real Kagawa disciples will come on and go on about how everything he did was amazing. If he doesn't even touch the ball in the build up to a goal, his movement is always key etc. He moves players around with his superb hand movements etc. When United play well, sometimes Kagawa does. The two definitely don't go hand in hand. He simply hasn't been that good in a United shirt, that's in a title winning side, and in a mid table side. Maybe there's more to come from him, but to say he's been a top performer most of the time United play well is incorrect in my opinion.

Using average squad players to illustrate a point is a bit unfair, given that you, and most others, feel that the side should be built around Kagawa. You should really be likening him to Rooney, Mata, RvP, or from past years, Scholes, Giggs etc. If the team should be built around him, then it's players teams were previously built around that he should be measured against.

People call Kagawa a playmaker. A playmaker in my book is someone who makes a team tick. He's not someone who makes a team tick slightly better if the team is already ticking quite nicely. He's a man who grabs a game by the balls and influences it. Shinji doesn't.

 

[Mad Winger]

What if Van Gaal doesn't think much of Kagawa either? What would be the excuse then?

It would mean that either:

A) Kagawa's in a slump and needs to move on for his own good and try to reinvent himself somewhere else. However, this is only the case if we actually play good football while winning. If we had done this under Moyes, then I would never have complained about the Kagawa exclusion.

or

B) The signature of Mata ultimately became Kagawa's doom. Kagawa is an excellent player that Van Gaal would love to use, but only in his ideal position. It just so happens to be that he prefers Mata more. If this is the case, then Kagawa should also move on, unless Van Gaal can make him play well in another position.

 

[Nighteyes]

It would mean that either:

A) Kagawa's in a slump and needs to move on for his own good and try to reinvent himself somewhere else. However, this is only the case if we actually play good football while winning. If we had done this under Moyes, then I would never have complained about the Kagawa exclusion.

or

B) The signature of Mata ultimately became Kagawa's doom. Kagawa is an excellent player that Van Gaal would love to use, but only in his ideal position. It just so happens to be that he prefers Mata more. If this is the case, then Kagawa should also move on, unless Van Gaal can make him play well in another position.

I think option A is Kagawa's best choice from a personal stand point. We are so full of attacking players right now that unless Kagawa really asserts himself, something which he really struggles with, then he might quickly fall down the pecking order.

 

[dirkey]

It would mean that either:

A) Kagawa's in a slump and needs to move on for his own good and try to reinvent himself somewhere else. However, this is only the case if we actually play good football while winning. If we had done this under Moyes, then I would never have complained about the Kagawa exclusion.

or

B) The signature of Mata ultimately became Kagawa's doom. Kagawa is an excellent player that Van Gaal would love to use, but only in his ideal position. It just so happens to be that he prefers Mata more. If this is the case, then Kagawa should also move on, unless Van Gaal can make him play well in another position.

And the excuse for him not doing the business when we played good football under Fergie and won was what? That it was his first season? Fair enough. Second season was that Moyes was awful etc (which I partially agree with).

Third season, the disciples will come up with another excuse.

Maybe ... just maybe it's that ... Kagawa simply isn't that good, and shone for a brief while. Remember when David Bentley resembled a footballer? Some players simply flash for a while but actually aren't top top footballers. Maybe Shinji is one of those? Would you even consider that if he had another subpar year?

 

[Mad Winger]

@dirkey

I challenge you to go through the United games over the last two seasons. I bet you can't find many games where:

1. Kagawa started.
2. The team played genuinely good football.
3. Kagawa was worse than the team average.

I doubt you'll find more than 1 or 2 examples of this, unless you have a hidden agenda. I can only think of one example, and I'm not even sure if that counts.

 

[Mad Winger]

And the excuse for him not doing the business when we played good football under Fergie and won was what?

I've had that discussion a million times before so I'm not gonna start it again, but I think Kagawa had a good first season, all things considered. He was better all his competitors, except for Rooney. Welbeck, Valencia, Young, Nani, Giggs... None of these players where as good as Kagawa. That ought to be considered a success in a new team, in a new league, in a new role, in a season filled with injuries. I'm a big Kagawa fan, and even I wouldn't have expected more than that.

Third season, the disciples will come up with another excuse.

There is no "excuse" this time(if we play good football and Kagawa still doesn't perform). That's why I'd want him to leave.

 

[dirkey]

@dirkey

I challenge you to go through the United games over the last two seasons. I bet you can't find many games where:

1. Kagawa started.
2. The team played genuinely good football.
3. Kagawa was worse than the team average.

I doubt you'll find more than 1 or 2 examples of this, unless you have a hidden agenda. I can only think of one example, and I'm not even sure if that counts.

Dude .. I'm currently working and shouldn't even be on this forum. ha. I haven't got time to go through all the games, and you can challenge me all you like. It's a case of opinions. I've seen every game, and I know what I felt at the time, and I also remember coming on and being baffled at comments from some people claiming he was outstanding when I simply didn't see it.

As for point 3 above, where have I said he was worse than the team average? Not once! I said he wasn't in the top 2 or 3 most of the time. At times, he has been in the top 2 or 3. I would say more likely <50% however. That doesn't mean he has been worse than the team average. I have never said that. As a matter of fact, I have consistently used the word average to describe Kagawa. Not below average. Not bad. Average. Go back through my posts if you like!

At the end of the day, it comes down to opinions really. In my opinion, in the main, when the team has been playing well, Shinji has done fine. But I really disagree that he's been one of the top 3 players. I think there's a distinct reason that Shinji was never exactly a regular in the past 2 seasons. We'll see if that changes under Louis.

 

[Annahnomoss]

It will be interesting to see which of our players can convert successfully in to the pressing game defensively, that will be the key to who gets to start. As Herrera, Kagawa, RVP and Mata are the only players in the entire team who has the experience and proven quality in the pressing defense I think they have very good chances.

In Kagawa's case I believe he is most likely to be requested to play in a midfield three, his defensive job as a LM in a midfield four is extremely similar and just 5 steps to the side of what he'd do as a LCM in a midfield trio. I believe he would handle that transition well considering while the others has to spend months learning the pressing defense and possession football he can instead focus on learning to add some intensity to his defensive role.

The main issue would be that we would need to play a 4-3-3 for him to handle it I believe, I don't think he can handle a midfield two and I have worries whether or not Mata can improve defensively to play in that midfield three. If he can't then we will play a 4-2-3-1 to keep Mata on the pitch which would mean Kagawa being left out.

Mata himself has played plenty of football for Spain in a pressing defense on the right side, so he would be able to learn the positional change which would be minor compared to the RM/RAM role he had for Chelsea/United/Spain and managed. However Mata hasn't really proven his stamina to be at that top level, and he has been one of our worse wingers in terms of tackling and interceptions even if his positioning has been nice.

We have so many scenarios which may end up being the way we play, Fellaini/Cleverley/Jones may learn the press in an excellent way for all we know and may improve a lot. Rooney may even do the same for the midfield role, which some has discussed and it would change the team completely.

 

[finneh]

1. It's not about leading 3-0. It's about playing quick, technical, fluid, attacking-minded football.

2. It's a huuuuuuge difference between playing better when the team plays well and becoming a catalyst. When the team delivers a solid 7 out of 10 performance or higher, players like Kagawa are there to give it that extra push that turns the performance into an 8 or a 9. Does players like Valencia, Young or Welbeck do that? No.

I get it: you don't like players like Kagawa. It's been clear from the beginning. I hardly remember any usernames in here, but I remember yours. I have no issue with your philosophy, but when you suggest things like "United is too big for Kagawa" or "Kagawa is just a mediocre players who needs to be carried by the team", then you're talking bullshit. The Dortmund team that he was an important part of would have walked the league this year if they were in the Prem, with Kagawa being one of the standout performers. It's not about United being too big. It's about us playing absolutely shite football that highlights individualistic moments of brilliance, rather than actual good football.

When the team plays good football and Kagawa is on the field, then he'll be one of the top 3 performers 80-90% of the time. This was the case for Dortmund. This is the case for Japan. And this has been the case for us, even under Moyes. It's painful to admit, but Kagawa's "failure"(he's still our best winger, as sad as that is) just proves that we're lacking as a team. Put Kagawa in pretty much any other top team except for a team managed by Mourinho, and he's an absolute star. We suck these days, and thus Kagawa struggles. His off-the-ball movement becomes pointless, because none of the other players move with him. His crosses and passes become meaningless, because there aren't enough movement in the box, and the ones who receive the ball misses their chances anyways(just look at that youtube video).

Kagawa doesn't have an impressive longshot, nor set pieces. He's not particularly fast, and let's not even mention his physique. He's also never been a dribbler, nor is he comfortable out wide. How on earth do you expect a player like this to thrive in the current United team? Hell, even the likes of Silva and Iniesta would only be a shadow of themselves if we signed them.

I disagree with your second point. I have never seen Kagawa turn a 7/10 performance into a 9/10 performance. You say put him in any team and he's a standout, but this is disingenuous. It took him several months to find his feet in Dortmund (which is fair enough) and only ever performed to the standard you profess during 2 three-four month spells, during which Dortmund had great player's around him and were playing their best form of the last decade. He wasn't their most important player and in fact probably wasn't one of in their top 3 during any whole season he was there.

Likewise with Japan he's had a few games here and there, but this World Cup is another example when the pressure is on. Japan is a team he should be leading by example, being their talisman, but this World Cup he's been in the shadow of a couple of player's who have stepped up. They've finished bottom of the easiest group in the tournament and Kagawa is one of a few reasons why.

I can quite happily say I do not like player's who only turn up when your team would win regardless. Unfortunately Kagawa has been one of those player's for a large chunk of his career so far from my perspective. He's a luxury player that some teams can afford, but not teams aiming for the very best I don't think.

 

[Lane]

I'll bet that even if Shinji will fail under LVG his fans will still find new ways to excuse him. No matter how ridiculous they are. already some stuff are being tried out, like Moyes ruined him and Kagawa can't get to being his best in just a year. He is very much like Suarez in that way.

I personally hope he will progress as it would benefit United, but i don;t hold my breath really.

 

[The Mitcher]

He was playing as shit as every one else. He can't seem to score goals when we need him to, and he isn't a good option to come off the bench and change a game. Every time we put him on to change the game he did nothing. I can see why he didn't start a lot of the games, because he's just not up to it for us it seems.

 

[dirkey]

The thing with Shinji is that people see him as a playmaker. Yet, he'll only do such a thing if the team is playing well, moving fluidly. What use is that to us in a Champions League tie (should we get back there) against Real Madrid which is on a knife edge? It's just not. He's an ok squad player to keep around in my view. Talking about him being one of our best players, or building our team around him is madness.

 

[Empire]

I disagree that he's one of the top 3 performers 80-90% of the time. What I find is that the real Kagawa disciples will come on and go on about how everything he did was amazing. If he doesn't even touch the ball in the build up to a goal, his movement is always key etc. He moves players around with his superb hand movements etc.

When he makes an off the ball run taking a defender with him, creating space for a player like Rooney to enter and get a shot off at goal, that's important.

Kagawa moves a lot. As a team, overall, United's off the ball motion under Moyes was limited. It is therefore no surprise people wanted to see more of what Kagawa did off the ball from the rest of the team.

If you have a preference for slow, static football that requires getting the ball down the flanks for a cross then so be it however that shouldn't be a reason to discredit players who make intelligent runs off the ball. And if you want to play football that results in victories then you need a lot of players that will make a lot of intelligent runs off the ball.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@MadWinger

Still possible Herrera will play as the deepest midfielder by the way if we want to use a three man midfield with two more offensive midfielders ahead of him.

 

[dirkey]

When he makes an off the ball run taking a defender with him, creating space for a player like Rooney to enter and get a shot off at goal, that's important.

Kagawa moves a lot. As a team, overall, United's off the ball motion under Moyes was limited. It is therefore no surprise people wanted to see more of what Kagawa did off the ball from the rest of the team.

If you have a preference for slow, static football that requires getting the ball down the flanks for a cross then so be it however that shouldn't be a reason to discredit players who make intelligent runs off the ball. And if you want to play football that results in victories then you need a lot of players that will make a lot of intelligent runs off the ball.

I've never said I prefer that style of football. I just don't believe that every run the guy makes creates space in the way his fans do. He rarely influences games so his fans make up stuff about all these amazing off the ball runs that everyone else just doesn't see.

Edit: Replied while on the move on my phone. I hate typing on my crappy phone! I do agree with you on your point that Moyes' United team was far too bereft of movement. And I agree that in this day and age, you want movement etc to lead to chances and goals.

Where I disagree with you, and the majority of Kagawa fans is that .. I just simply don't think he has been all that good with United. I don't think he has done anything in his time to justify the hype that surrounds him, or this constant - ludicrous, in my opinion - clamour to have him constantly start, and to have the team built around him. He has had plenty of chances and just quite simply hasn't as of yet risen to the challenge.

I think that every small thing he does gets magnified by his fans as absolute genius. Because he is more of a pass and move player than the rest of the team last year, that was somehow phenomenal etc. Forgive me, but I hark for the days of Scholes, passing, moving, arriving in the box, scoring, setting up others. Giggs likewise. I want pass and move with end product. Shinji has delivered flip all of that. Excuse after excuse is made, basically the entire team bar Shinji is to blame .. yet it's amazing that these same players can score from other players passes.

As I've said many times though, I really hope he proves me wrong this year. And maybe he will! And I'll be back here with a big "I'm an idiot" sign over my head ,and an absolutely goofy delighted grin on my face.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

The Bayern game still gives me hope. He was the best player on the pitch easily.

 

[SonnyTheHaloPro]

Kagawa is absolute top quality and is world class when he is on form, Period. So many people seem to have a hidden agenda against him. Most of them were no doubt Moyes apologists last season. Let me guess, He didn't try enough for Moyes, He didn't give a feck, Too weak etc etc.

He was blatantly showing signs of Consistency during the end of the 12/13 campaign under Fergie, then guess who came? How many players actually performed well under Moyes last season? Pretty much all our stand out stars during our last title winning season were non existent, RVP, Carrick, Rafael, Jones?. Anyway back to Kagawa, Although he was coming of the back of pretty decent first season, as well as playing well during the confederations cup, Moyes pretty much isolated him. He wasn't even on the bench for most of our opening games and hardly ever got a look in. Then Moyes sprouted crap to the press like "They tell me Shinji is a good player" "They tell me he has good movement" ...wdf..I don't even......

On top of that, Young, Welbeck and Valencia were absolute shite in that opening period and they never even got close to being dropped (2/3 of them usually would start every game). A sub par 15 minute cameo from Kagawa would mean we didn't see him again for another month. So I can't even blame the guy for having such form later on.

So I really think we should at least him this season to show us what he can do, under a world class coach such as Van Gaal. If he doesn't cut it next season, then fair enough it would be best for him to move on, but let's give the guy a chance. He was brilliant for Dortumund and I have no doubt he will succeed next season.

 

[kouroux]

Many players are world class when they're on form, what matters is how many times they're on form. Kagawa has basically disappointed however we look and if he is to leave the club this summer for instance, not a lot of fans will fell disappointed. He's in the category of players (like Nani), whether they stay or go, it does nothing to me.

 

[Robbie Boy]

This thread is so agenda driven, it's untrue. Does anyone even have a balanced opinion on Kagawa anymore!

 

[Xaviesta]

This thread is so agenda driven, it's untrue. Does anyone even have a balanced opinion on Kagawa anymore!

I think he's a good player, but sometimes things don't work out with players. I'm only judging him on his time at united, and for me he hasn't done enough. Juan Mata in just under half a season performed better than Kagawa has in his time at united.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I think he's a good player, but sometimes things don't work out with players. I'm only judging him on his time at united, and for me he hasn't done enough. Juan Mata in just under half a season performed better than Kagawa has in his time at united.

I would be of the same opinion. I wouldn't be rushing to sell him but he has most definitely underwhelmed so far.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Hey presto. Turns out this thread does have at least some balanced opinions...

Personally, I'm in the "new manager, clean slate" camp. I hope he gets one more season with United to show what he can do. Really needs to up his game though. I hope he can.

 

[Xaviesta]

I would be of the same opinion. I wouldn't be rushing to sell him but he has most definitely underwhelmed so far.

If £15m came in for him, I'd accept it.

 

[Robbie Boy]

If £15m came in for him, I'd accept it.

If the right money came in, then the idea of selling him should definitely be entertained. However, we would need to have a good replacement lined up. I still feel he is a good squad player but should be so much more considering his exploits at Dortmund.

 

[CurryCantona]

Kagawa had a 2013-2014 season to forget. Hope he can do better next season.

 

[quackattack]

I think it takes a different kind of mentality to play for an underdog who are on a bit of a good run (BVB), rather than a top team.
The same was the case for Berbatov at Spurs. It's much easier being a big fish in a small pond, rather than just another cog in a much bigger machine. It's why player's like Ronaldo are so special, they have the mental discipline to handle all the above pressure and actually thrive off it.

First off, Dortmund has, in recent years not been an underdog. They have with exception from their econimically challanging years been one of 3-4 dominant german teams. Always breathing Bayern in the back, and even leading on. Their management, talent developent and anything in general is among the greatest in the workd. How else do you think they always manage to scout/develop young, world class talents "out of nowhere"

Also, which players are like Ronaldo? Yes, in the sence that he seemingly can adapt to any league in the world makes him more or less unique, but that does not make him a better footballer. I don't see him carrying Portugal in the WC like Neymar, Messi or even Rodriguez. It does not make him a bad footballer, it is just not his thing (apparently). The thing with all of these players is that they are carrying very visibly, but I must say that it dosn't mean that Kagawas work and talent, althrough slightly less visible is valuable.

 

[Kyonn]

If £15m came in for him, I'd accept it.

Who wouldn't? I doubt if we could get half that for him right now.

 

[Sarni]

We'd easily get more than £10m for Kagawa.

 

[Robbie Boy]

We'd easily get more than £10m for Kagawa.

Yeah I reckon so alright and there are plenty that I would sell before Kagawa.

 

[Empire]

I've never said I prefer that style of football. I just don't believe that every run the guy makes creates space in the way his fans do. He rarely influences games so his fans make up stuff about all these amazing off the ball runs that everyone else just doesn't see.

Edit: Replied while on the move on my phone. I hate typing on my crappy phone! I do agree with you on your point that Moyes' United team was far too bereft of movement. And I agree that in this day and age, you want movement etc to lead to chances and goals.

Where I disagree with you, and the majority of Kagawa fans is that .. I just simply don't think he has been all that good with United. I don't think he has done anything in his time to justify the hype that surrounds him, or this constant - ludicrous, in my opinion - clamour to have him constantly start, and to have the team built around him. He has had plenty of chances and just quite simply hasn't as of yet risen to the challenge.

I think that every small thing he does gets magnified by his fans as absolute genius. Because he is more of a pass and move player than the rest of the team last year, that was somehow phenomenal etc. Forgive me, but I hark for the days of Scholes, passing, moving, arriving in the box, scoring, setting up others. Giggs likewise. I want pass and move with end product. Shinji has delivered flip all of that. Excuse after excuse is made, basically the entire team bar Shinji is to blame .. yet it's amazing that these same players can score from other players passes.

As I've said many times though, I really hope he proves me wrong this year. And maybe he will! And I'll be back here with a big "I'm an idiot" sign over my head ,and an absolutely goofy delighted grin on my face.

You assume I want him to constantly start. I've made clear he should be second to Mata for the reason Rooney is too good to be on the bench and he should have one final chance under Louis van Gaal. When somebody does not share your view that Kagawa has been horrific then that person does not automatically qualify as a Kagawa worshipper.

I've just merely noted he brings things to our team of value, these so called things that nobody else sees, maybe Louis van Gaal will.

Whether he succeeds or not is up to him but when his haters comment on how he hasn't got an assist, expect his fans to point out the things he does that our team is in desperate need of. Like any other player he has done good things and bad things too.

I also don't think he has been all that good with United last season but very few were therefore where Kagawa is condemned you cannot excuse the others. The season before that was a perfectly fine first season as usually we don't expect fire works.

The reasonable view in my opinion is let's see what King Louis can do, I'm happy Shinji wants to work and fight for his place.

You strike me as the opposite of the Kagawa lovers.

 

[dirkey]

You assume I want him to constantly start. I've made clear he should be second to Mata for the reason Rooney is too good to be on the bench and he should have one final chance under Louis van Gaal. When somebody does not share your view that Kagawa has been horrific then that person does not automatically qualify as a Kagawa worshipper.

I've just merely noted he brings things to our team of value, these so called things that nobody else sees, maybe Louis van Gaal will.

Whether he succeeds or not is up to him but when his haters comment on how he hasn't got an assist, expect his fans to point out the things he does that our team is in desperate need of. Like any other player he has done good things and bad things too.

I also don't think he has been all that good with United last season but very few were therefore where Kagawa is condemned you cannot excuse the others. The season before that was a perfectly fine first season as usually we don't expect fire works.

The reasonable view in my opinion is let's see what King Louis can do, I'm happy Shinji wants to work and fight for his place.

You strike me as the opposite of the Kagawa lovers.

Ah-ha. My apologies for assuming you want him to start. Likewise however, you should not assume that I view Kagawa as having been horrific. I have constantly said I think he has been average. Not horrific. He's a fine squad player, my issue is with those who call him world class, who state that the team should be built around him, and who think it is nuts when he doesn't start. In my view, he hasn't done enough in his time at the club to justify that. I'm not saying he doesn't have the potential to do it, but my view on him is that in the main he has been average and underwhelming. I've never said he has been horrific.

I agree with you that some people absolutely condemn Kagawa and seem to think the guy can't do anything right. Which is wrong. But also, the Kagawa fans overdo all the things he does, in my opinion. I think there's a balance. He's a decent player, but not a great / world class one. Or at least, he hasn't been a great / world class one in a United shirt.

If I strike you as the opposite of the Kagawa lovers, then you haven't read too many of my posts. Maybe my last post sounds overly negative about him, I didn't mean it to be. It's more negative about the overblown hype that surrounds him from his fans. In my view, he has been average. He hasn't been awful, as some people have said, but he hasn't been great either. He's been in the middle.

I'm on constant record also as saying I'm really hopefully that he elevates himself this year, proves me wrong with regard to think he's average, and shows himself to be integral under Louis. I would have absolutely no reason to hope the guy fails, and couldn't understand any fan who did have that hope.

 

[Amir]

I certainly won't be selling him until Van Gaal gets the chance to work with him. If that doesn't work as well, then I'll give up.