Far and away the worst thread on the Caf
Shinji Kagawa
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I'd even kiss him goodbye
I hope Ander Herrera signing will end this "use Kagawa as a CM" talk. I really think that a terrible option and more importantly the one that we tried and failed with.
Same. I think the likes of Valencia, Carrick, Fellaini, Evra, Nani, Young, Welbeck, Chicarito and Kagawa should be sold either in the January or the next summer window if they don't convert to their new roles at a high enough level.
After watching Kagawa's performances for Japan, I'm beginning to get a little worried about him. Before the tournament, he talked about how he felt ready to be one of the main players for Japan (putting too much pressure on himself?). After the Ivory Coast game, he allegedly came out saying he essentially psyched himself out. What I took from his alleged quotes is his confidence isn't high and he's being incredibly hard on himself. In the Colombia game where he was better, he showed bouts of frustration when he made mistakes or didn't get a shot right.
In a way I feel sorry for him because he wants to do well for his country and knows he can do better than what he's showing. However, in the same way, it highlights my concern of how he'll recover his confidence. It's one thing being hard on yourself, it's another thing using that same self-criticism as motivation to perform better and make more of an impact on the team. It seems when he's hard on himself he performs worse.
He's one of my favorite players who I think van Gaal will utilize due to his intelligence and understanding of space but he needs to find within himself a way to express his abilities otherwise he's going to find himself out of Old Trafford in a heartbeat. We're in the midst of another transition and I honestly dont see van Gaal hoping Kagawa magically springs to life if this sort of form continues for a prolonged period of time.
one of my coaches used to say the majority of the game is played in your head and I didn't fully grasp what he meant until later but I think it applies in Kagawa's case. When you have the talent but are low on confidence and your overall mentality is seemingly not helping you get out of the rut, it begs the question how exactly you'll find your way back to top form.
Now the good news for Kagawa is he can put the Japan performances behind him and focus on making an impression with LVG in the training sessions as others have said. Then when he's out there on the pitch, he'll need to do a better job of showing he's making progress with his performances. I was willing to give him more of pass last season under Moyes due to the circumstances he found himself in and I didn't feel he was used well either. I don't think he'll have that excuse next season with LVG. I'm still holding out hope he can show more what he's actually made of at United but despite the other factors which affect his performances, I think he needs to apply himself better.
In a way I feel sorry for him because he wants to do well for his country and knows he can do better than what he's showing. However, in the same way, it highlights my concern of how he'll recover his confidence. It's one thing being hard on yourself, it's another thing using that same self-criticism as motivation to perform better and make more of an impact on the team. It seems when he's hard on himself he performs worse.
He's one of my favorite players who I think van Gaal will utilize due to his intelligence and understanding of space but he needs to find within himself a way to express his abilities otherwise he's going to find himself out of Old Trafford in a heartbeat. We're in the midst of another transition and I honestly dont see van Gaal hoping Kagawa magically springs to life if this sort of form continues for a prolonged period of time.
one of my coaches used to say the majority of the game is played in your head and I didn't fully grasp what he meant until later but I think it applies in Kagawa's case. When you have the talent but are low on confidence and your overall mentality is seemingly not helping you get out of the rut, it begs the question how exactly you'll find your way back to top form.
Now the good news for Kagawa is he can put the Japan performances behind him and focus on making an impression with LVG in the training sessions as others have said. Then when he's out there on the pitch, he'll need to do a better job of showing he's making progress with his performances. I was willing to give him more of pass last season under Moyes due to the circumstances he found himself in and I didn't feel he was used well either. I don't think he'll have that excuse next season with LVG. I'm still holding out hope he can show more what he's actually made of at United but despite the other factors which affect his performances, I think he needs to apply himself better.
We failed? He played like one game there.I'd even kiss him goodbye
I hope Ander Herrera signing will end this "use Kagawa as a CM" talk. I really think that a terrible option and more importantly the one that we tried and failed with.
Agree with most of it, but I think he already took a big step up in the last game in the group-stage for them. Suddenly he was directly involved in 10 shots with either himself unleashing it or finding the direct pass which created a goal scoring opportunity. This is a ridiculous sum, absolutely outstanding amount of chances created directly through him.
This is an aspect of his game which has been heavily criticized too, I can't think of the last time a non-forward was direct involved with 10 shots just through key-passes and shots. So he got over his initial troubles and rose from it to perform really well and try his best to be that sort of player who imposes himself on the game and tries to win it for the team himself.
A different day his contribution could have lead to plenty goals, but poor finishing from Japan overall(Kagawa included) meant the score-line never benefited from it. I don't care much about people missing chances, it is thousands times better to create 20 chances and score 0 every game than it is to not even create any.
Solving the goal scoring issue is going to be extremely easy compared to finding a way to create chances if you are having issues with that.
Hull and esp first half against Southampton was enough for me. He also was tried deeper several times before that without any success. He is not a player in CM area.
Which several times before that? Could you list them.
He created only one really good chance for partners though. On 25-th minute or about i think for Yoshida with a low cross to the box. Everything else including a slight kick back to Nagatomo in the second half were more of a hopeful chances than real opportunities. He did however had 1 great, 2-3 decent enough chances himself. So he was much better in that respect. But his passing even in Colombia game still lacked a real cutting edge. To many passes he made were ultimately to keep the ball.
Its just excuses in my opinion, all it is with him is excuses. He just isn't that good. We should move him on.
Spurs game, the one we lost. There was something else. Donetsk game maybe, but i need to check on that.
And you suppose Kagawa can play CM for United? Even half-good one?
I don't think we are arguing for the point that Kagawa can play in CM just the fact that we didn't fail playing him there because he was played there only once maybe twice but thats about it.
Seems fair enough to me. Not least since we don't know what LVG's plans are - he may not know himself, in detail, until he's had a chance to properly assess certain players. Some he knows well, others he probably has a good idea about, others again he'd probably like a closer look at before making a call on 'em.
The more rash of our resident muppets would seemingly like to "simply" offload half the team and replace them immediately. Which ain't realistic, obviously. Even if it should turn out that LVG hates a dozen of our current crop and refuses to play 'em, we still have to find buyers and sort out deals. The real word is a bit a pain in the arse like that.
Aye. And in a system which is very different from what LVG will opt for, I dare say. I have my doubts about Kagawa but I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out alright as part of a midfield three of some description, say.
to be fair people use similar type of reasoning for some of our other players but no one calls it excuses then.
Check the Januzaj thread in particular. Or Rooney when he was played on the left etc etc. If it is a currently popular player it is reasonable factoids, if it is a currently disliked player it is excuses.
If being directly involved in 10 shots includes him shooting wide, I'm not sure I want to include that because I dont see that as something to be praised.
I see your point though. From what I observed from his performance, I didn't come away with the same impression. If Kagawa feels for him, he's making good progress and it helps his confidence then good for him. On the same token, I feel those type of performances will need to be what he needs to show more of at United. I get the impression with van Gaal coming in, the competition for places will be intensified and less patience will be given for players who arent picking up the slack. What I'm getting at is that Kagawa tends to let himself fall into a shell which decreases his overall output. So i'm just speculating if this sort of thing happens again during the upcoming season for him, he may find himself out of the pecking order which would be a shame
yep. in those threads though people seem to feel because say Rooney for example has been more productive than Kagawa they are more "reasonable factoids" as you say than excuses even though in my mind they're still excuses
Use Nani + Cash to get Vidal and Kagawa + Cash to get Reus.
Kagawa certainly stepped up for his last game in my eyes. He reached 93% passing accuracy, one of the higher recorded for an offensive player in this world-cup and extremely good in general. Comparable is Januzaj who had 60% passing accuracy which I believe is one of the lowest recorded this World Cup if we exclude goalkeepers who usually have that passing accuracy.
Kagawa had three tackles and an interception and did really well in his positioning and work-rate defensively as well. Four crosses, four passes which lead directly to teammates unleashing a shot at goal and on top of that also six shots.
He was directly involved with around as many shots as United averaged per game last season.
Kagawa made a big step up from his previous games where he looked as bad as he had ever been in the Japan shirt, where he usually excels.
He ended up with the highest passing accuracy of all the offensive players in his group, and one of the highest of all AM's/strikers in the World Cup so far who played three matches. Similar amount of key-passes as James Rodriquez and so forth.
I don't think he did good, I think he was worse than he has averaged for Japan - but he wasn't bad which people want it to look like. It is really even for me between him and Nani on who our best performing winger has been. Valencia has been much much worse and apart from RVP I am not sure which United players actually out-performed Kagawa.
The United players has been shit bar RVP unfortunately.
@Annahnomoss I agree that he stepped up but for me it's still some ways from where he needs to be especially for United. He can't do much if his teammates dont finish off chances he provides. We saw this last season with Smalling and Fletcher who both missed easy chances which would have been assists for Kagawa.
I'm mainly concerned his tendency to be self-critical (from his own admission) may be a hindrance to how he starts the season. Hopefully he picks up where he's left off though
I'm mainly concerned his tendency to be self-critical (from his own admission) may be a hindrance to how he starts the season. Hopefully he picks up where he's left off though
Baring a few of those, that's a lot of dead weight on huge salaries. We need to start fresh. Also, I blame these players equally along with Moyes for our horrible last season. Difficult for me to forgive them right now.
Anderson, Fletcher, Fellaini, Young, Cleverley and Nani should all be sold before Shinji. Working under Van Gaal can be very good for him me thinks.
He can score himself. How many great chances did he miss? He did score a grand total of zero goals in all competitions. Dreads to think how many assists other players were denied.
True enough some of his good passes were not converted. But that is the same for everyone. The problem Kagawa created very little. You take Mata, Rooney and they created much more (per minute). And that's how it works for everybody, you create many enough chances some of them are bound to be assists. The problem with Kagawa that he just does not create at rate a top AM must.
He played there three times a least. And it was completely dreadful. What do you suggest, to give him a run in a team as CM?
Maybe a whole season?His problem is that he is a gigantic fanny with the ball and very rigid in where he can play. His style of play is well and good when we are playing well but when we are not he should have been more assertive, more direct in his play and try to influence games rather than keep on with his tki taka sideways passing shit. Right now we have 4 players (Rooney, Mata, Januzaj and Nani) who I'd much rather play than him. If we get a 15m offer then we should take it and run.
Didn't have the best of WC's. Japan on the whole didn't have a great one, but you expected him to at least show more.
I don't think he'll stay. Reckon Van Gaal won't use him.
I don't think he'll stay. Reckon Van Gaal won't use him.
Before we signed Mata, Kagawa was well within my personal "top 5 players I want to keep in United". He's still right up there, though he's not so instrumental now that we have Mata.
There are just so many worse players in our team that I'd rather see go before Kagawa. Ignoring our entire defense, these are the players who I'd rather see leave before him: Anderson, Cleverley, Fletcher, Fellaini, Young, Bebe, Valencia, Nani, Welbeck, Hernandez.
There are other players I'm not sure I'd keep ahead of Kagawa(like Januzaj), but the ones above are the ones I'm 100% sure I wouldn't.
It just seems odd that the Kagawa critics would be so harsh on Kagawa when he's so far away from being the issue with our current team. We have so much dross who are fit to be squadplayers at best. Why take out one of the most technical and creative players we have, who's just 25 years old and has a proven past of brilliance? It just doens't make any sense.
There are just so many worse players in our team that I'd rather see go before Kagawa. Ignoring our entire defense, these are the players who I'd rather see leave before him: Anderson, Cleverley, Fletcher, Fellaini, Young, Bebe, Valencia, Nani, Welbeck, Hernandez.
There are other players I'm not sure I'd keep ahead of Kagawa(like Januzaj), but the ones above are the ones I'm 100% sure I wouldn't.
It just seems odd that the Kagawa critics would be so harsh on Kagawa when he's so far away from being the issue with our current team. We have so much dross who are fit to be squadplayers at best. Why take out one of the most technical and creative players we have, who's just 25 years old and has a proven past of brilliance? It just doens't make any sense.
He can score himself. How many great chances did he miss? He did score a grand total of zero goals in all competitions. Dreads to think how many assists other players were denied.
True enough some of his good passes were not converted. But that is the same for everyone. The problem Kagawa created very little. You take Mata, Rooney and they created much more (per minute). And that's how it works for everybody, you create many enough chances some of them are bound to be assists. The problem with Kagawa that he just does not create at rate a top AM must.
He played there three times a least. And it was completely dreadful. What do you suggest, to give him a run in a team as CM?
That's how it works, if you want a player to perform in a completely new position, you give him playing time in this position, generally a lot of time, because it's really hard for him to create new automatism without playing competitive football in that position.
And for the comparison with Mata we can use this season, Mata played 17 matches with chelsea and provided 2 assists 0 goals, in this period he was used sparingly and couldn't find his rythm in a team where he was the player of the year.
But with United different story he was trusted, and played at every opportunity, he found his marks and delivered goals and assists. (15 matches 6 goals 4 assists)
For Kagawa it's a different story, he had playing time but without any consistency, it's hard for a player, to play his best football if he doesnt play week in week out. ( 29 matches 0 goals 3 assists).
That's not just true for Kagawa though which you have conveniently ignored. Nani's best form (for United I might add) surpassed Kagawa's best form for Dortmund (which lasted for all 3/4 months). Valencia's best is probably on par with Kagawa as well. Hernandez scored 20+ goals in his first season and he wasn't even first choice for the majority of it. We could also get a lot more money for Kagawa than some of the others.
It's not only about which players you like or deem good enough. It's also about balance of the team. Hernandez is a CF, Clev is a CM, Fletcher is a CM/DM. I mean in some roles/areas you have many players, in other you have a shortage so even o solid, average player will do.
If Kagawa can't produce on the left his chacnes at United look really bleak.
Lahm was a hit in a deep CM role from a get-go.
Yes, the trust can make all the difference in the world. But still Mata averaged 2.3 chances created per game at Chelsea. While Kagawa have 0.9. That's what i am talking about. Yes this chances do not account for everything, but it is the same for both of them. And it's a vital indicator of AMs play. You need to create chances. It also does not differentiate between scored one and those chances that your partners failed to convert.
Nani is inconsistent as hell. In his 7 seasons for us, he's been brilliant in 2 of them and average/crap in the other 5. It's been 3 seasons since Nani was good now. He's also incredibly injury prone, which is a massive burden on the team, should he ever be considered a first choice. He's also a player that relies heavily on pace and dribbling. These sort of players tend to peak earlier, so it's very unlikely that Nani will ever reach anything close to his old form. The same applies to Valencia. For a full year under Fergie, in a season we dominated the league, he was arguably our worst player in the starting XI. I just don't see him bouncing back from this.
Hernandez is the player in my list who's the "closest" to Kagawa's level. Hernandez is an excellent striker, but he's never in a million years gonna displace RVP or Rooney. And he can't play in any other position, so that makes him very hard to utilize. Especially now that we have Mata.
He was average at the world cup - and his fanbois all rave about his level for Japan.
Just not when the chips are down, it seems.
I honestly think his best hope would be going to Porto or some such and hope to find some form where he can bully a decent league for a few years and use that confidence and form curve as a platform for trying at a big league again. As it stands, he's broken as a potential top player.
Just not when the chips are down, it seems.
I honestly think his best hope would be going to Porto or some such and hope to find some form where he can bully a decent league for a few years and use that confidence and form curve as a platform for trying at a big league again. As it stands, he's broken as a potential top player.
He was brilliant in the 2 of them and I'd say good in 2 others. The last 2 he's had injury worries and not had a good run of games (the same problem Kagawa had) but he looks fit enough for Portugal right now. He's also technically brilliant (as good as Kagawa if not better) and brings something to the team that Kagawa (nor anyone else bar Januzaj) does not bring to the team. He's also more proven than Kagawa who's done feck all at the club to be rated higher than Nani. Hell, when Nani is on song we play some terrific stuff. Valencia is now shit but he has a new contract and a past form than probably eclipses that of Kagawa. Both had their best season 3 years ago. What you are saying is that we should keep Kagawa because he had a few good months 3 years ago and some other things that you have pulled out of your arse.
It's a rare case and Lahm was always a fullback playing like a midfielder.
And i'm not talking about trust, i'm talking about match fitness and self-confidence (without external boost), an AM who doesn't start games and doesn't play week in week out, won't create as much chances than one who do.
Since Kagawa is a quality player (not as good as Mata) you know that the simplest solution for him to be better is by giving him a lot of playing time but supporters dont want that because he doesn't create enough chances. Ouroboros
First of all, Kagawa had his best season 2 years ago, not 3. Secondly, Kagawa was much better than Nani and Valencia combined in his first season for United. And he's arguably been better than both, even under Moyes.
Nani hasn't been true United quality for 3 seasons now. He's been good for Portugal recently, but how long does it take before he's injured again or end up in his usual slump? He definitely doesn't have better technique than Kagawa(or Mata and RVP for that matter), but he's a much better dribbler. He's good at running with the ball in his feet, and he's good at shooting. But none of this matters when he's injured 50% of the time and is inconsistent when he finally does play.
As for Valencia, there has been nothing that suggests that he will reach his old form. With Kagawa, at least you have the occasional good game where you see what talents are hidden beneath. The CL this year was a perfect example of this. He was easily one of our top 3 performers there. And then there's those 2 games where he and Mata both looked like world beaters.
He never was instrumental though, was he? And his technical and creative abilities are grossly exexmplified. Januzaj has surpassed him. And what past brilliance; he has been sub-par his whole time here. Does Ashley Young get the excuse of 'proven past brilliance' for playing well at the club we bought him from, the same as Kagawa? He just simply isn't good enough as a wide outlet and he is probably fourth choice to play in his preferred position. He should be sold.
And what did he do in that game? He was his typically passive self, just trying to retain possession. His best just simply isn't as good as Rooney's or Mata, players who can single handedly win games.
What two games did they look like world beaters?
Go read your original post. You said we should keep Kagawa ahead of Nani (and Valencia) because he's technically brilliant and he has past record of brilliance. Nani's last 2 seasons have been a write off and not just because of injuries. He hasn't got the chances, hasn't got the extended run that's needed for a player like him to deliver. You have been whinging about Kagawa not getting a chance for 2 fecking years now and ignore that nani's been a worse situation for most of that time. There's nothing to suggest his injury is in anyway chronic, he's no Hargreaves. If we got rid of everyone who had a couple of injury prone seasons we won't be left with much. Fact is, Nani is a better player than Kagawa, more proven than Kagawa, technically brilliant, maintained a world class level for more than a 3 months and is not a passive player. We should probably get rid of them both if I had to keep one Nani is an obvious choice.
Valencia is irrelevant to Kagawa's future as there is no way they are competing for the same position.
How many solo goals has Kagawa scored in his career? Not many from my recollection. He can score goals but I've never got the sense he's an individualist who will score a goal out of nothing so to speak.He can score himself. How many great chances did he miss? He did score a grand total of zero goals in all competitions. Dreads to think how many assists other players were denied.
True enough some of his good passes were not converted. But that is the same for everyone. The problem Kagawa created very little. You take Mata, Rooney and they created much more (per minute). And that's how it works for everybody, you create many enough chances some of them are bound to be assists. The problem with Kagawa that he just does not create at rate a top AM must.
He played there three times a least. And it was completely dreadful. What do you suggest, to give him a run in a team as CM?
That's a fair point on mata and rooney. I think they are examples of players who can still be productive even if they're not at their best. It doesn't seem Kagawa is at that level. Maybe that's what youre hinting at? It's interesting because the qualities he has makes him a top class number 10 but his performances haven reflected those qualities nearly enough.
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