Should Mourinho bring in a new 'attacking coach'

hungrywing

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Some very good points in there. I certainly agree with the notion that he needs to adapt his game to the particularities of modern football. I also believe he understands it and this maybe is the reason for his perpetual grumpiness over the last years. As i said in my first post, i don't expect him to completely change his ways but moderate alterations i'm sure he can think of. For instance, one of Tottenham's biggest strengths is that they tend to keep a relatively high defensive line and they apply pressing in the middle of the pitch. Not a very high line and not a very high press but it gets the job done in the sense that it allows them to win the ball in the middle of the park and hit the opposition right at its weakest point, between transitions (instead of going all the way back and then move the ball all the way up again as Fortitude mentioned in his post). I don't think that this is beyond his "teaching" capabilities or that it asks of him to betray his basic managerial principles. I'll wait and see what happens since this season i see a manager who at least acknowledges some things need fixing even though the changes he tries are not the ones some of us expect or wish.

I don't think he'll get a war chest from Woodward to buy himself the top side he wants. He'll get money for transfers all right, lots of it, but (for example) he won't get it to sign two world-class wingers when the club wants to invest on both Martial and Rashford. I might be wrong about this but i think this is one of the things for which he will have to find a solution on his own. I suspect that the final outcome of all minor to moderate alterations he will try in the attacking half of the pitch, because unlike LvG or Moyes he's started trying things, will play a big role in the pressure he will put on Woodward for transfers next summers and it will eventually determine his future relationship with the club (contract extension or not).

Having said that, i don't think that he's completely past it as some suggest. I acknowledge that the three most successful clubs in Europe lately, Real Madrid-Barcelona and Bayern Munich, play a far more pro-active type of football. It's also evident that all the more sides in the big European leagues attempt to make room in their starting lineups for more creative players instead of runners and hard workers. But, in the case of the three aforementioned clubs, we must also take into consideration that there are certain characteristics in the environments of their national leagues (separate TV deals in Spain, sugar daddies not allowed in Germany) which allow them to separate themselves from the rest of their competition and attract the cream of the crop out of pools of native talent that are currently much better than anything the island has to offer. Other than that, transition sides can be as antagonistic as the possession-based ones IMO. And i'm saying this as a fan of possesion football.

What i don't agree much with is that Mourinho doesn't teach any patterns of attacking play. I wrote in another thread that i can't believe that, in an era when any coaching staff has the means to watch and micro-analyze every bit of detail not only of a team's performance but of any individual player's performance, there's one single guy out there who's achieved being the most decorated manager over the last 15 years by simply neglecting what is basically half the game itself (the plays when a team has the ball). That's getting away with murder and i have watched so many of Mourinho's sides to believe that he's not getting away with murder.

What i believe is that this set of players can't execute his instructions to perfection. This doesn't mean that it's not a good set of players by any means, as some on here have suggested. Firstly, Mourinho's a very demanding and even draining, both physically and mentally, attacking plan. Because Mourinho is a defensive minded coach, he uses his astute defensive tactics to force the opponent to over commit players and then he wants the transitions to work with the bare minimum of players that are needed to complete the move from start to finish. This demands of the players very aggressive off the ball movement with dynamic-vertical runs, very quick thinking and exquisite technical skills. This is one difference (sometimes a strength, sometimes a weakness) he has from other transition/counter-attacking managers out there, Fergie included. You see, Ferguson always planned to take things from the second line of attack, from players from deeper positions. It's not that he prioritized attack over defense like some believe (it's never that simple) but he always relied on players from behind to contribute their share into pinning the opposition down and maintaining a high tempo/keeping a move alive and going. And by doing that he could rotate heavily and tinker with the players' roles because even the most important ones among them weren't the be-all end-all of his game plan. Whereas Mourinho drowned in a spoonful of water against Rafa's own parked bus twice and completely lost the plot against Dortmund when the most useful cog in his teams' wheel, Di Maria, missed the game.

But also keep in mind that when Ferguson came as close as he ever did to Mourinho's line of tactical thinking in 07-08 and 08-09 he was mostly successful. But then again he had an amazing attacking triangle and he often could afford to rotate Giggs and Scoles in their early 30's. Which i think would be Mou's line of defense, if someone showed him a thread like this one.

I think Mourinho can still make it work, one way or the other. I don't always like the football but for the first time in 5 years i (think i) can see what we're trying to do on the pitch even if it's not easy on the eye for many of us. But we'll see what happens, the next three games will tell us more about where we stand and what we can expect until the end of the season.
Really good post except based on stuff we've heard like in dichinero's post below, I think that bold part might be giving him just a tad too much credit when it's too early to tell. Bit of a nitpick, but bar the early years he's always had world class attackers at his clubs so it's hard to compare straight up whether our current situation is just a lack of instruction or just simply having 'poorer' or 'undeveloped' players, or unmotivated ones, etc.

Fully agree on how SAF teams particularly post-2007 were more about slow and steady pressure upfield down the wings relying on adequacy on the wings to keep the opposition in retreat until it was "two banks of four" and a quick counter was at least out of the question and to relieve pressure on the midfield where we all know what problems were happening (and what happened when teams started to take their chances there.) It was interesting to watch, the ball moving up the wings slowly until the opposition were all encamped and then Zombie Football, rinse and repeat.

Good post and read overrall but I want to respond to this section.

I too, did not believe it until a player (whose name escapes me right now) that played under him at Madrid said in an interview that José paid little attention to the attacking side of the game but was heavily invested in nullifying the opponent. Hazard said something along the lines that the main difference between José and Conte is the tactical instructions and approach that allows him to flourish. I've always wondered why the attacking players seem to go up a level or two when José gets the sack.

I think there is a difference in asking players to go and attack and actually having intricate attacking drills and instructions. At best, we look like a bunch of players asked to just run at the opponent and make something happen. It has been said that Pep took what LvG and intentionally modified what happens in the final third. Ribery said that Pep will plan how they approach different sections of the attacking phase and drill them over and over to it became embedded in them, and then he will allow room for creative freedom.

It's just the way I see it but it is evident in how we attack at times, no one has a clue what they should be doing. Last season, we had one main approach; get it to Pogba who was only going to try a long range shot or try to find Zlatan, no wonder he had a crazy amount of passes and chances to Zlatan and the other players had a low amount. We need a bit more with in that area and if we are sticking with José, an attacking coach with a fresh pair of eyes and ideas would be the way forward. It says everything, when José and his assistant; Rui Faria are inherently fitness coaches really.
 

milemuncher777

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Jose and his current coaching staff are not upto it on this front imo. Clear as day .. even Bristol looked more cohesive and attacked with more patterns whereas we just looked so random in possession and off the cuff. Not good enough for a supposedly elite side looking to win titles. We're grinding out results constantly for a long while Pogba or no Pogba
Are you going to bump this thread every time when we're going to lose or there's a goal-less draw?

For bit of perspective we're second highest in league in terms of goalscoring. If Mourinho was shit at attack coaching we'd probably been much more down that list.
 

Raees

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Are you going to bump this thread every time when we're going to lose or there's a goal-less draw?

For bit of perspective we're second highest in league in terms of goalscoring. If Mourinho was shit at attack coaching we'd probably been much more down that list.
Open your eyes and actually look at the football being played. Getting lots of jammy counter attack goals when the opponents are pushing for a win despite us being second best all game has really masked how bad we are at putting fluent attacks together.

I'm not usually for stat-padding arguments but enough is enough, anyone with half a brain can see this United side just isn't at the races when it comes to moving the ball around at pace, lots of movement and quality goals.. we score using moments of individualism rather than consistent displays of collective brilliance. Time that some took their head out of the sand and actually watched our games rather than referring to bloody Opta all the time, what certain fans need is the Opticians instead.
 

Bestietom

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A new attacking coach could be the answer, but we also need players with skill and composure on the ball to play good attacking football.
 

RedDevils23

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Wow. Brilliant idea. Why didn't everton think of that. They'd win the league next season.

Hmm.. If arsene hires a defensive coach they'll probably win a treble.

Maybe if england hires an attacking coach they'd win a world Cup
Easy there Captain Sarcasm. You missed my point entirely. Nowhere in my post did I talk about other teams and their coaching needs/deficits.
 

whatwha

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Have to agree with @Raees here. You have to look at how our goals are scored. I'm getting tired of people quoting stats to support all sorts of points, as if they are the gold standard of evidence, as opposed to how we actually perform on the pitch. Our goal record in the league this season is a bit misleading due to adding to the scores towards the end of some games. Our attacking play has usually been shitter than the "2nd highest scorers" stat suggests. We don't have the speed, movement and patterns that City and LFC display. We are more reliant on individuals being clinical rather than creating good chances on a regular basis.
 

cyberman

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This is an absurd thread.
Its more to do with preference of style rather than effectiveness hence the "Despite the goals we've scored.." bullshit to validate opinions.
Here's a shock, goals change games and Jose prefers a counter attacking style over final third ball retention.
This thread is up there with telling Pogba last year that he has to cut out the tricks, shoot less and play the ball quicker.
Utter tripe.
He's already brought on a group that could barely hit the target to becoming incredibly effective goalscorers, is that not a form of attacking coaching?
 
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Sly

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I insist, bring back AVB to the coaching staff :D
 

Raees

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This is an absurd thread.
Its more to do with preference of style rather than effectiveness hence the "Despite the goals we've scored.." bullshit to validate opinions.
Here's a shock, goals change games and Jose prefers a counter attacking style over final third ball retention.
This thread is up there with telling Pogba last year that he has to cut out the tricks, shoot less and play the ball quicker.
Utter tripe.
He's already brought on a group that could barely hit the target to becoming incredibly effective goalscorers, is that not a form of attacking coaching?
Actually by each passing week, that argument of referring to just goals scored stat as concrete evidence of attacking superiority is getting more and more absurd if you ask me.

Its getting to the point where people need to get their eyes tested.. like do you guys actually watch the game in between the moments that lead to goals, or perhaps you guys are better off following the scores of teletext like the good old days.

I don't see how anyone who watches us play can think we attack as well as any of the top european sides or Liverpool, Spurs, City in this league. Results wise, we have more know how than some of these teams and are defensively more secure.. but we sure as hell don't play as fluently as these sides, and you can argue but we set up to counter.. well yes, but Atletico Madrid are set up to counter and they don't look as clueless as we do in alot of our games. In our case we have been very lucky as the results really have masked alot of our performances. We have grinded our way to second and the goals scored column doesn't tell the full story. Don't get me wrong, this side does have goals in it.. but the goals come from moments, we rely on individual moments, abit of luck.. I don't see enough sustained quality attacking pressure and FWIW.. old Jose sides like Chelsea, Porto.. did have that in them where they could pin sides back and take the attack to them at will, and the countered very efficiently.. but football has moved on, and that sharp counter-attacking football we saw in past Jose teams is not quite there in this side - we see lots of misplaced passes regularly.. I don't recall Chelsea sides of the past being so poor at keeping the ball effortlessly. Something is amiss and we need to do something about it outside of just throwing money at new players time and time again.

Watching us play is like watching the English national team sailing through their qualifying campaigns, scoring tonnes of goals, getting the points somehow even though you know underneath the side is not where it really needs to be and that the first time they face any top side, they'll be backs to the walls trying to grind out a result and ultimately going to fail.
 

RedDevils23

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You say it yourself. We're one attacking coach away from our potential tenfold.

Can you name one attacking coach btw?
Yes, I did say that. Because it applies to our situation. It's evident that our offensive play is the issue (heck, it has been even since SAF's latter years. RvP masked our offensive deficiencies in 2012/13)

And I did mention an attacking coach, in my original post. Stop being so condescending.
 

desmondisback

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Sometimes managers have a blind spot, and it would be better for them to put the ego to the side and call in help when it's necessary. What do you guys think?
Maybe someone could explain to him what attacking actually is first? Maybe they could also explain that there actually is no rule to say you can't have players going into the opposition half.
 

RedorDead21

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Maybe someone could explain to him what attacking actually is first? Maybe they could also explain that there actually is no rule to say you can't have players going into the opposition half.
He was hoping Miki would be his Hazard or Fabregas hybrid I guess and it never worked out....so he resorted to strength in defence once more...think he'll be looking for that type again very soon to help with the creation part as Pogs isnt really that and even if he is we have not seen much of him yet this season...?
 

Sky1981

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Yes, I did say that. Because it applies to our situation. It's evident that our offensive play is the issue (heck, it has been even since SAF's latter years. RvP masked our offensive deficiencies in 2012/13)

And I did mention an attacking coach, in my original post. Stop being so condescending.
You come here with your blabbering, calling posters stupid, calling the best manager world not knowing how to coach, you come here with a wall of post as if you're Johan cruyff and I'm condescending?
 

RedDevils23

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You come here with your blabbering, calling posters stupid, calling the best manager world not knowing how to coach, you come here with a wall of post as if you're Johan cruyff and I'm condescending?
Where in any of my posts have I called posters here stupid? Where I have criticized Mourinho? Are you even reading my posts? In my original response I literally said "By the way, this isn't a knock on Mourinho. I like him and think he's doing a decent job". YOU'RE the one blabbering and insulting people. I can't tell if you're a troll or just have an agenda against me? But upon reading some of your recent posts under your Recent Activity on your profile, I can tell you're an unpleasant person who has no manners. Don't know how you have over 18,000 posts and haven't learned how to have an actual discussion with people. Not going to respond to you again, you're a straight up bitter and terrible person.

Edit : You have 18,000+ posts and only 1 like. Makes sense.
 

desmondisback

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I don't see how anyone who watches us play can think we attack as well as any of the top european sides or Liverpool, Spurs, City in this league. Results wise, we have more know how than some of these teams and are defensively more secure.. but we sure as hell don't play as fluently as these sides, and you can argue but we set up to counter.. well yes, but Atletico Madrid are set up to counter and they don't look as clueless as we do in alot of our games. In our case we have been very lucky as the results really have masked alot of our performances. We have grinded our way to second and the goals scored column doesn't tell the full story.
Brilliant post. There are many around here who won't understand what you are saying. "The stats prove that we are making progress under Mourinho!" they cry. But I see what you see. Our football is dire at times and we don't even counter attack properly either. There are very brief examples of what our players can do when they move the ball quickly and creatively (notably the two early goals v Arsenal) but most of the time it's awful , worse than Stoke sometimes because we don't even hoof it effectively.

I agree. There's a lot that's being masked over by "results" and "stats". But alas , we are the fickle moaners I'm afraid. We have been labelled Mourinho haters who have no loyalty. According to the " be glad you are not 6th" brigade we are only interested in fancy tikka takka football and not trying to win. They think we just want to be entertained and that's it. (Doh!)

However , the truth of the tripe we play and the fact that we are miles behind some teams in fluency, speed and creativity will bite us in the bum soon enough. I wish it didn't have to happen , but it's the only way we will learn that the Mourinho "project" was just a quick fix misguided sticky plaster.
 

deafepl

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Since we have a goalkeeper coach, his name is Emilio Alvarez. I don't see why we can't bring attacking coach if we want to improve our attacking play in the final third.
 

The Outsider

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If you do need an attacking coach, surely your past legend Ryan Giggs should be worthy of a call?
 

Hed Zitin

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It'd be the best signing we made.

Won't happen unfortunately. Jose would overrule anything the bloke did come match day anyway. Ultimately he's the manager.
 

LeftyBlaster

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Open your eyes and actually look at the football being played. Getting lots of jammy counter attack goals when the opponents are pushing for a win despite us being second best all game has really masked how bad we are at putting fluent attacks together.

I'm not usually for stat-padding arguments but enough is enough, anyone with half a brain can see this United side just isn't at the races when it comes to moving the ball around at pace, lots of movement and quality goals.. we score using moments of individualism rather than consistent displays of collective brilliance. Time that some took their head out of the sand and actually watched our games rather than referring to bloody Opta all the time, what certain fans need is the Opticians instead.
Totally on your side here. Our offensive play is woeful. Absolutely woeful. Zero movement, zero pace, zero invention.
 

desmondisback

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Totally on your side here. Our offensive play is woeful. Absolutely woeful. Zero movement, zero pace, zero invention.

Yes!!!!! Agree 10000% It's good to know that some others can see what I see. We are miles away from the kind of football that we will need to play to compete at the top level and we don't even look like we are learning. We are stuck in a miserable hell of hoofball whilst other top teams are developing skill , movement , pace creativity etc.

But we shouldn't worry about this because the stats show that we are "going in the right direction" . It's rubbish though! Why is it that when politicians quotes stats at us we are very cynical about whether it proves anything at all but when football fans do it it's supposed to mean something?

It's good to hear other fans have not succumbed to the allure of the spreadsheets that say we are becoming a footballing force. At least I know I'm not alone in seeing the reality of what's happening on the pitch.

Spreadsheets and stats will not help us in big games , the quality of our football will. It's the oldest cliche in the book - football is played on grass not on paper.
 

Paxi

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I’m on board this train. If he doesn’t I’m afraid my time of backing Jose might be coming to an end. Something has to change!
 

Minimalist

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He won't bring one in. Or change his ways. Too old for that now.

Only option with Mourinho is to spend more money.
 

villain

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We don’t have one.
And if we do, he needs to be sacked.

We don’t know what to do in the last third.
 

Romez

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Forget about an ‘attacking coach’ how about we bring in an attacking manager?

One who can at least make us look competent on the ball. Jesus.
 

kotha

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He won't bring one in. Or change his ways. Too old for that now.

Only option with Mourinho is to spend more money.
I suspect this will be the case,but it would be nice if he got one in.. Even Fergie got a lot of assistant coaches in,hope he doesn't take it as an ego issue and just deals with it..

We are absolutely hopeless in the final third,no passing,no movement..
 

Adisa

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Dismissed this thread at first.
Now getting second thoughts.
I don't believe our problem is just personnel.
Hazard said Mourinho didn't train attacking movements or didn't really focus of attacking drills.
I can't for the life of me believe that but most weeks our attackers look like they have never played together before.
 

adexkola

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Dismissed this thread at first.
Now getting second thoughts.
I don't believe our problem is just personnel.
Hazard said Mourinho didn't train attacking movements or didn't really focus of attacking drills.
I can't for the life of me believe that but most weeks our attackers look like they have never played together before.
I don't think our problem is personnel either. If we are supposed to be a counter-attacking team, why do we look so shit doing it?
 

Judas

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Been thinking this for a few months. We have the players, but they need a more attacking mindset and education. We just don't seem as silky going forward as we should.
 

Adisa

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I don't think our problem is personnel either. If we are supposed to be a counter-attacking team, why do we look so shit doing it?
I've heard a few people suggest Mourinho leaves his attackers to figure things out.
I don't expect him to go full LVG and try to coach every single movement but I do know most top managers choreograph attacks.
I don't care how fantastic your attackers are but chemistry can only be created on the training ground.
I'm not having people saying our attackers aren't good enough.
 

Abhinav

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I have heard many people say that we are undercoached in attacking and counter-attacking situations. I was interested to know people’s opinion on which parts of counter-attacking can be coached and which parts are linked to instincts/maturity/skill.

For me, there are 4 critical aspects of counter attacking football:
1) Movement
2) Touch
3) Decision Making
4) Passing precision

According to me movement and decision making can be coached to an extent through 3 on 3, 4 on 4 drills etc. However, during match situations, players require composure to apply what they have learned else all the training is of no use.

Fundamentals such as touch and passing are difficult to coach at this level, they are more foundational that players learn during their early years. I see players such as Rashford, Lukaku and even Martial making fundamental mistakes in matches that lead to break down of promising situations.
 
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adexkola

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I have heard many people say that we are undercoached in attacking and counter-attacking situations. I was interested to know people’s opinion on which parts of counter-attacking can be coached and which parts are linked to instincts/maturity/skill.

For me, there are 4 critical aspects of counter attacking football:
1) Movement
2) Touch
3) Decision Making
4) Passing precision

According to me movement and decision making can be coached to an extent through 3 on 3, 4 on 4 drills etc. However, during match situations, players require composure to apply what they have learned else all the training is of no use.

Fundamentals such as touch and passing are difficult to coach at this level, they are more foundational that players learn during their early years. I see players such as Rashford, Lukaku and even Martial making fundamental mistakes in matches that lead to break down of promising situations.
You can tell when great movement and decision making is let down by a technical mistake. In that situation... shit happens, work on getting it right next time.

Our attack is too static to buy the notion that coaching isn't a factor. There is no movement, and our players make decisions like naive schoolboys. Shouldn't be the case.
 

LeftyBlaster

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There is a clear lack of attacking coaching. Our movement is shit, the way we feed our main striker (or lack thereof) is shit. All these things have been constants this season despite us having a really really good squad. I’ve also read the stuff about Jose leaving his attackers to do their own thing and if true it is damning. It showed against Burnley today where after half time there was no obvious change in the way we tried to do things.
 

Abhinav

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You can tell when great movement and decision making is let down by a technical mistake. In that situation... shit happens, work on getting it right next time.

Our attack is too static to buy the notion that coaching isn't a factor. There is no movement, and our players make decisions like naive schoolboys. Shouldn't be the case.
That may be true in a situation where we have to break down a defence but yesterday there was space to exploit and we had atleast 4 potentially goal scoring situations. We were not able to capitalise due to player errors. I really wouldn’t blame Mourinho and the coaching team for our failures yesterday.
 

Foxbatt

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Our biggest problem is not coaching but at this level players need to understand that they must pass the ball to a team mate who is in a better position. This is why we get the ball to the final third and then mess it up.
The other is space. This is something that needs to be coached and the biggest culprit is Mata. He plays on the right and he should not be bringing the ball inside always and he should not be sprinting inside at all. If he is on the right then he has to stretch their defence by staying wide and keeping a defender with him so there is one less defender in their box and there is one more space for our attackers to exploit. Many a time I notice that Mata is the closest player to our player who is in possession of the ball. That should not be the case at all.
When to pass is the most important aspect they need to learn. and of course how to pass.