Should our wide attackers be doing more defending?

[Pogue Mahone]

Lack of a DM repeatedly talked about as our Achilles heel but all the stats show that our wide men up front are absolutely miles below their peers when it comes to defensive work. We’ve conceded three goals so far this season, two of them from wingbacks that basically never score goals.

Is the lack of tracking back from our wide attackers a bigger problem than we think?

Or should the more defensively minded players be giving them a platform where they can focus on attacking only?

 

[EtH]

Being that Newcastle broke straight down the middle of the pitch for their goal today, I think blaming the wide players is just ignoring the obvious. We are really poor defensively in the middle of the park.

 

[DWelbz19]

Not sure how much the goals we’ve conceded correlate directly to our wingers not tracking back — but we definitely have the laziest attack of the top 4.

I think that’s why Ole wanted to keep James (and now probably Lingard). He’s obviously some way away in ability, but in terms of his actual profile, he added something nobody else does on the wing.

 

[Ace of Spades]

Lack of a DM repeatedly talked about as our Achilles heel but all the stats show that our wide men up front are absolutely miles below their peers when it comes to defensive work. We’ve conceded three goals so far this season, two of them from wingbacks that basically never score goals.

Is the lack of tracking back from our wide attackers a bigger problem than we think?

Or should the more defensively minded players be giving them a platform where they can focus on attacking only?

Probably, yes. Depends on our players, pressing only works if everyone contributes. It is clear some players put in more of a shift than others though. Hopefully with plenty of rotation, that part improves.

 

[sp_107]

Sancho and Greenwood can defend and we might look at playing this to get the best

-------------------Ronaldo--------------------Cavani--------------------------------

------------------------------------Bruno--------------------------------------------------

------Sancho-----Pogba--------McTominaty--------Greenwood----------

-------------------------Shaw------Maguire------Varane------------------------

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

Greenwood can't defend at all, and a formation with him and Sancho playing wingback is pure FIFA stuff.

 

[The United]

This might sound strange to some. We need to do more all the those so called technical fouls effectively once we lose the ball further up.

Shaw was way out of position for their goal as well.

 

[He'sRaldo]

My first instinct is to say a lot of fans seem to have somehow become so obsessed with defending, effort, and tracking back over the past few years. The focus should always be on upping our own quality and threat.

For instance by upping our quality at CB, we can now release the forwards to not track back as much, knowing that our defensive line especially Varane is comfortable being more isolated. And conversely, so much attacking quality frees up the likes of Pogba to dictate the play, instead of trying to do it all on his own.

I get that a very good defense is a cornerstone for a winning team, but I do think we can get too obsessed with it at times, especially since our main focus in most games will be trying to unlock tight defenses. Especially in games like this where we're expected to dominate, the forwards expending energy tracking back consistently should be a situational thing, not the default. Except for the likes of Bruno, he has the energy to run and run all day.

Pressing and hustling high up the pitch though? Now that's another matter.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Being that Newcastle broke straight down the middle of the pitch for their goal today, I think blaming the wide players is just ignoring the obvious. We are really poor defensively in the middle of the park.

Broke down the middle and ended up with 2 v 1 the left side of our box. Manquillo ran a long way with nobody tracking his run.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Yes

 

[mu4c_20le]

Nani dislikes this thread.

 

[Trequarista10]

Sancho and Greenwood can defend and we might look at playing this to get the best

-------------------Ronaldo--------------------Cavani--------------------------------

------------------------------------Bruno--------------------------------------------------

------Sancho-----Pogba--------McTominaty--------Greenwood----------

-------------------------Shaw------Maguire------Varane------------------------

Eeewwwwww

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

More broadly speaking, our problem today wasn't the wide areas. Newcastle's entire plan was to get Almiron and St Maximin on the ball centrally and turn, which they executed very well even before the goal, because Saint Maximin in particular is excellent 1v1 and both Pogba/Matic are susceptible .

Shaw wasn't "out of position" either, he was doing his job as part of our system. To mitigate that, you need a better midfielder in the middle that you can trust in 1v1s in transition, which pretty much everyone on this forum is already aware of.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

My first instinct is to say a lot of fans seem to have somehow become so obsessed with defending, effort, and tracking back over the past few years. The focus should always be on upping our own quality and threat.

For instance by upping our quality at CB, we can now release the forwards to not track back as much, knowing that our defensive line especially Varane is comfortable being more isolated. And conversely, so much attacking quality frees up the likes of Pogba to dictate the play, instead of trying to do it all on his own.

I get that a very good defense is a cornerstone for a winning team, but I do think we can get too obsessed with it at times, especially since our main focus in most games will be trying to unlock tight defenses. Especially in games like this where we're expected to dominate, the forwards expending energy tracking back consistently should be a situational thing, not the default. Except for the likes of Bruno, he has the energy to run and run all day.

Pressing and hustling high up the pitch though? Now that's another matter.

100% agree. Even at our best in SAF years we were hardly some perfectly molded defensive unit. It was more Rio/Vidic being a brilliant partnership and defending the inevitable breaks that teams would get while we sent everyone forward.

You can’t normally have it both ways, there’s a reason we are always able to break on City because when you commit players forward to the opposition box and there’s an outlet to break you’ll have to defend a bit more openly.

 

[drunkmonkmeth]

They way we set up attacking we leave our defender so ecposed. Zero midfield cover.

 

[Tom Cato]

I genuinely wonder how many goals we'd be able to score if we played a park the bus, hit them on the break tactic with this talented forward lineup.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

100% agree. Even at our best in SAF years we were hardly some perfectly molded defensive unit. It was more Rio/Vidic being a brilliant partnership and defending the inevitable breaks that teams would get while we sent everyone forward.

You can’t normally have it both ways, there’s a reason we are always able to break on City because when you commit players forward to the opposition box and there’s an outlet to break you’ll have to defend a bit more openly.

Fergie consistently selected at least one wide attacker who was extremely diligent at defending. Park and Valencia being obvious examples. Rooney also worked his bollox off to help his fullback when he was playing wide.

I think it’s ok to carry one player out wide who doesn’t defend much. But having both of our fullbacks constantly exposed is asking for trouble.

 

[Borys]

Wide attackers tracking back or "industrial" midfield - It's one or another.

Another matter is if they are any good at defending. Ronaldo doesn't track back. Greenwood and Bruno are very poor at defending, even if they do a lot of running. That's two different issues we have. But in general with Ronaldo in the team, all other players have to put 110% of the normal effort.

 

[davidmichael]

This brings up the formation and tactics argument as we either don’t have any creativity from midfield in a 4-2-3-1 due to it being McTominay and Fred OR we are overrun through midfield when it’s Matic and Pogba due to Matic being finished as a starter and Pogba needing someone with top stamina and defensive positional sense to work in a double pivot.

If we move to 4-3-3 it gives a better balanced midfield and means our wide players up top are released defensively but then it means Fernandes is more of an 8 than a 10 so we lose him being so close to goal, do we trust Fernandes will score and create as much as an 8 ? Do we trust in Cavani, Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho and Martial to back Ronaldo up enough goals wise if Fernandes doesn’t do big numbers as an 8 ?

Personally I think that in games like today against teams parking the bus and hoping to get the odd counter attack we could play Pogba in a double pivot alongside someone like Rice and play as basically a back 5 and front 5 but I think rather than worrying about our wide forwards defending we should want them to simply press better and defend from the front, I don’t want to see our wide forwards backing up our full backs and rather them pressure the opposition defence into mistakes nearer their goal.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Random question. Can anyone remember Rashford, Martial or Greenwood ever sprinting back and making a tackle in our defensive third? (too small a sample size to judge Sancho) I can’t think of any and that seems weird/wrong to me.

 

[Someone]

Random question. Can anyone remember Rashford, Martial or Greenwood ever sprinting back and making a tackle in our defensive third? (too small a sample size to judge Sancho) I can’t think of any and that seems weird/wrong to me.

I remember Rashford doing that for sure.

 

[noodlehair]

Newcastle were just running up the middle of the pitch over and over completely unopposed. I suspect the wide players don't get back because we have no one in the middle slowing opposition attacks down in order to give them the chance to.

I know we won today but I thought it was a bit of a joke to be honest. Was like we'd just assumed our half of the pitch didn't exist. The exact thing Arsenal used to get ripped to pieces for, before they became shite at everything else as well.

 

[NZT-One]

I remember Rashford doing that for sure.

Yes Rashford comes to mind. But ultimately, I agree with the sentiment - our "wingers" are, except for James who is gone now, strikers who are used on wide starting positions. It isn't shocking at all, that they are not used to the part of the game when we as a team don't have the ball. Rashford was an exception for a while, but last year, he wasn't doing it just as Martial and Greenwood. At some point, this will cause us issues.

 

[zenith]

Might sound stupid to some but we need McFred back in the middle asap. They don't offer much in attack but it's decent enough and the shield they provide in front of defence makes us quite well protected, especially in away games when we witness a high press in midfield.

Till such time that we get someone like rice or bissouma in our midfield, we need to keep the balance by playing a double pivot.

Ofcourse on occasions when we really need to break down teams, pogba can always move to CM, but that's hardly his best position

 

[PlayerOne]

Random question. Can anyone remember Rashford, Martial or Greenwood ever sprinting back and making a tackle in our defensive third? (too small a sample size to judge Sancho) I can’t think of any and that seems weird/wrong to me.

Rashford did a few times in fairness. But don't remember Greenwood ever doing it.

Agreed overall though, feel like Ole needs to fine tweak a few things to make this team work a bit as a unit. I understood why the wingers didn't track back before. But with the likes of Pogba, Ronaldo and Bruno in the team, they need to do carry out their defensive duties now.

 

[Idxomer]

I feel the real problem is they barely do any pressing up front, our midfield not being compact doesn't help either.

 

[bosnian_red]

We essentially play a 4-2-4 most games so of course we get big issues there. The work rate is fine for Greenwood for example, but his starting position is a wide forward, not a winger. Sancho is a winger/wide playmaker but so far has been playing really high up the pitch and generally doesn't do much defensively anyway. Rashford is the same as Greenwood. It's a problem when they're all wide forwards. With Sancho or Pogba wide on one flank, we'll be relatively fine, but thats why we need a very solid midfield 2 behind the front 4. It just needs better balance with ball playing and defensive solidity. Could also use Bruno not playing as a forward when we use 2 wide forwards generally.

Ideally for me I'd put Sancho on the right to stretch the pitch more (and play deeper) and give us creative balance on that side, rotate Greenwood and Rashford on the left as a wide forward with Ronaldo top, and use Bruno much deeper as an 8 essentially next to Pogba. And then place a true sitting DM behind them.

 

[RuudTom83]

When a team banked in there own half with 10 men behind the ball is always hard to breakdown...but for the banked team its actually easier to get a few chances if they break quickly.

For United it was trying to get passed 10 Newcastle players.
For Newcastle is was about 2-3 United players, so well done to them for scoring 1.

 

[FreakyJim]

Yes, we should be more compact and defend as a team, as well as attack as a team. All the good teams do it.

 

[Brwned]

We're going to be really threatening on counter attacks and really threatened by counter attacks, no way around it. Ole's not the kind of manager to drill players to the point where they become robots in a system, and the individuals just aren't inclined to press hard on their own. It'll just be the classic "broken team" which is flawed but can still be very successful, it was Brazil's go-to in their heyday and Madrid's Galacticos followed their lead, Ancelotti with Milan too. Sancho's not so bad, depends which Rashford comes back, Ronaldo and Greenwood are pretty terrible.

 

[Mickson]

It's 2021 and it's all about running. The best teams don't have passengers in their teams. I think Chelsea and Bayern are very good examples of that. PSG has some ridiculous talent but hasn't won anything of note, mainly, I think, because of that. With Ronaldo in our team, it's even more important that our wingers work harder. In today's game, we were vulnerable against a weak Newcastle team at home. We need better balance if we are going to win anything.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We're going to be really threatening on counter attacks and really threatened by counter attacks, no way around it. Ole's not the kind of manager to drill players to the point where they become robots in a system, and the individuals just aren't inclined to press hard on their own. It'll just be the classic "broken team" which is flawed but can still be very successful, it was Brazil's go-to in their heyday and Madrid's Galacticos followed their lead, Ancelotti with Milan too. Sancho's not so bad, depends which Rashford comes back, Ronaldo and Greenwood are pretty terrible.

Don’t forget Cavani. Regularly makes more of an effort to track back and tackle than players a decade younger. Here’s hoping Greenwood et al pay more attention to his defensive diligence than the player who took his shirt number.

 

[andersj]

I think it is a problem. Could be solved same way Chelsea did. Three at the back and wingbacks. We lack someone on the right wingback though.

 

[King7Eric]

Sancho and Greenwood can defend and we might look at playing this to get the best

-------------------Ronaldo--------------------Cavani--------------------------------

------------------------------------Bruno--------------------------------------------------

------Sancho-----Pogba--------McTominaty--------Greenwood----------

-------------------------Shaw------Maguire------Varane------------------------

What on earth is this? Not only do you have Greenwood playing wing back, you also spelled McTominay wrong, making him sound Italian. I don't even know which is the bigger crime here.

 

[EtH]

Broke down the middle and ended up with 2 v 1 the left side of our box. Manquillo ran a long way with nobody tracking his run.

As @noodlehair said, it would help if our CM would at least slow down or hold up counters to give our wide players the chance to recover. I’m not saying defending wide isn’t an issue. Just that the lack of cover provided in the center is far and away the main issue.

We have been wide open the past three matches without McTominay. Saints were bypassing Fred and Matic routinely and Traore targeted and ran past Fred for fun after getting no joy from attacking AWB.

Whether the wingers are tracking runners or not, the central players should at the very least be getting in the way consistently against counters.The lack of mobility and / or positional discipline in the middle is shocking without McTominay. We just have to hope the attack can override such deficiencies this season I suppose.

 

[RDCR07]

Or whole team is bad at defending not just wingers.

 

[Abraxas]

I think this is a fair point. It struck me when I was digging up Martial's numbers that we are diabolically bad in this regard.

Martial's numbers were unsurprising, but Rashford and Greenwood were poor as well, they were only slightly better than a player many deride for low work rate. If they're not even pressing well, which seems part of the manager's plan, are they tracking runners and to what extent? It's not something that's easy to appreciate on TV.

You can't blame the system either because James put in the work so it's possible. Obviously there is some element of holding back some energy for more meaningful attacking contributions because they're different types of players but the difference didn't seem totally explainable by this.

 

[Stack]

Lack of a DM repeatedly talked about as our Achilles heel but all the stats show that our wide men up front are absolutely miles below their peers when it comes to defensive work. We’ve conceded three goals so far this season, two of them from wingbacks that basically never score goals.

Is the lack of tracking back from our wide attackers a bigger problem than we think?

Or should the more defensively minded players be giving them a platform where they can focus on attacking only?

If we have 2 central DMs often the usual method is for one of those to track wide to assist the fullbacks as the ball moves wide. The other DCM slides more central. The whole team slides laterally depending on where the attack is coming from.
I like letting attacking players be free to attack. I remember SAF talking about not wanting Ronnie to drop back to help defend during Ronnies first stint with us.

One problem yesterday was the fact Pogba cant tackle to save his life, his defending angles leave him being turned frequently so having him in beside Matic caused problems. Im a huge Pogba fan but defending is not one of his strong points

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We could have alleviated this earlier if we committed to pressing more.

That's now impossible with Ronaldo in the side, so we have to be more astute and disciplined in when we bomb forward. I do think leaving perhaps an extra defender to deal with transitions also helps.

https://spielverlagerung.com/2021/07/05/tactical-theory-the-various-forms-of-rest-defence/

A very good article on dealing with transitions. I think that's been a big problem for us this season.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I think it is a problem. Could be solved same way Chelsea did. Three at the back and wingbacks. We lack someone on the right wingback though.

Which of our attackers are you dropping though?