Should the women's game have smaller stuff in it?

Stack

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@Stack obviously has a lot of experience coaching, but isn't that a bit of a closed group, ie, they are already playing a woman's game on men's pitches. It's different from the men's game because the players have different physical capabilities.

I have two daughters who both play football but want to play it like the football they see on TV. They don't like watching women's football, no matter how hard I push it, because they don't like how it looks.

Surely, having the diameters of their pitches and goals would help them play the game they love.
I have a clear and obvious bias which in some ways means I am not the right person to be making some claims.
However ultimately thats my point. Any changes should be drive by those playing the game, not those expecting the game to be the sames as the male one.
If your two daughters are typical of the female perspective of the game then lets make the changes.
 

Stack

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Is tennis played on different sized courts for men and women? Is the net set at different heights to allow for mens taller reach on serves?
Does womens tennis look and play differently to mens?
Same questions for field hockey, rugby, basketball?
 

TMDaines

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Really odd post considering a quick search shows loads of high profile female coaches and female players saying it's a discussion that's needed. To say that THE big problem is men discussing it makes absolutely no sense when some of the most respected and established female voices in the female game are discussing it.

As one of countless examples, heres Emma Hayes :

'The debate is closed down out of a misplaced fear that it will damage women’s football. When I first aired the idea, I was accused of undermining equality and trying to take the game backward.

"Let’s try to set emotion aside and consider some facts, such as the average height of a goalkeeper in men’s football being at least 6ft 1in — latest figures put it as high as 6ft 3in in the Premier League — with goalkeepers in the Women’s Super League (WSL) about 5ft 8in.

"That is a significant disparity, particularly when the dimensions of a full-size outdoor goal are 8ft high and 24ft wide.

"Constructive debate should be encouraged.

"I don’t want to see men called sexist for daring to discuss how the women’s game is different.'
This is the main issue with any discussion along these lines. It becomes a political decision ultimately, rather than one taken more objectively.
 

Lay

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Is tennis played on different sized courts for men and women? Is the net set at different heights to allow for mens taller reach on serves?
Does womens tennis look and play differently to mens?
Same questions for field hockey, rugby, basketball?
I think the tennis ball for women’s tennis is slightly lighter to make the game faster
 

Skills

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Is tennis played on different sized courts for men and women? Is the net set at different heights to allow for mens taller reach on serves?
Does womens tennis look and play differently to mens?
Same questions for field hockey, rugby, basketball?
Tennis isn't and it's actually a poor sport for it. Women's tennis has the luxury of being bundled together with the men's tournament but as a spectacle it's a clear step down.

The net play is almost non existent, the rallies don't have the same build up to them - as the players are just interested in hitting the corners as hard as possible knowing their opponent can't reach the ball. The men's game involves a lot more top spin because the risk/reward of trying to hit the ball hard to the corners isn't there - so they build the rallies.
 

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Is tennis played on different sized courts for men and women? Is the net set at different heights to allow for mens taller reach on serves?
Does womens tennis look and play differently to mens?
Same questions for field hockey, rugby, basketball?
I think women use a slightly lighter ball in tennis and they only play 3 sets (dunno if 5 sets wouldn't actually be better though, don't think there's anything lacking about female enurance). In basketball they use a slightly smaller ball and the shot line is shorter. I think Rugby is identical to the men's game, dunno about hockey.
 

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Is tennis played on different sized courts for men and women?
Is the net set at different heights to allow for mens taller reach on serves?
Does womens tennis look and play differently to mens?
No
No
Yes
 

Peter van der Gea

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I have a clear and obvious bias which in some ways means I am not the right person to be making some claims.
However ultimately thats my point. Any changes should be drive by those playing the game, not those expecting the game to be the sames as the male one.
If your two daughters are typical of the female perspective of the game then lets make the changes.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, where woman's football is now, the drive should be on increasing participation and following, which means that the changes need to take into account far more than the current players opinions.

Also, for woman's football to really succeed, it can't just rely on a following taken from only half of the population, it needs male followers, and they will only watch it if it looks good. So it needs a male perspective as well.
 

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Nah, the huzzle for all the additional infrastructure would not be worth it.

The average height for men in England in mid 19th century was 5`3" as well so you could argue that the womens game now is closer to its intended origins than the mens game.
And rule changes that would lead to less goals, less attractive football? Don`t see the point, I`d argue that there are actually too few nice goals in the men`s game because freekicks or longshots have become so hard to be scored.
Is it me or does this sound like nonsense? I know nutrition was bad back then, but 5’3’’ as an average??
 

Stack

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I think women use a slightly lighter ball in tennis and they only play 3 sets (dunno if 5 sets wouldn't actually be better though, don't think there's anything lacking about female enurance). In basketball they use a slightly smaller ball and the shot line is shorter. I think Rugby is identical to the men's game, dunno about hockey.
You are probably right but I thought the mens ball had more fuzz to it so as to handle the higher speed and damage to the ball from the mens game.

"Since 2004, many of the combined events use the same brand and general make of ball for both men and women, but with different felt coatings. Though the official weight ranges for the two balls are within the same parameters, there’s actually a surprising amount of allowed variance in the weight of the balls (between 54 and 60 grams), but this isn’t what’s at the core of the ball difference. The difference comes from the fact that the men use extra duty felt and the women use regular felt. This means that the men’s ball fluffs up faster and moves more slowly through the air."
 

Stack

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Is it me or does this sound like nonsense? I know nutrition was bad back then, but 5’3’’ as an average??
It does sound pretty short but we have been getting taller. I think the Dutch maybe 10 years ago raised the regulation size for door frame height. I may have the timeframe wrong but it was realtivly recently
 

Zlatan 7

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Not one to ever watch women’s football I watched the second half of the champions league final last night after seeing a thread about the first half on here at the time.

I was seriously disappointed with the quality to be honest, the pinnacle of women’s club football and the standard was pretty dire in my view. I just accepted it for what it was and thought I wouldn’t be watching another match for a good while.

I think if they do want the sport to grow to a wider audience maybe something could change to help the quality of the game, but then after reading most of this thread it seems the ones involved in women’s football don’t want that and want it as their own game anyway.
 

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It does sound pretty short but we have been getting taller. I think the Dutch maybe 10 years ago raised the regulation size for door frame height. I may have the timeframe wrong but it was realtivly recently
The Dutch are all lanky anyway though aren’t they? It might well be true, I just found that really surprising. Nelson was 5’6’’ and considered a short arse even in those days. Was he really 3 inches taller than the average bloke?
 

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You are probably right but I thought the mens ball had more fuzz to it so as to handle the higher speed and damage to the ball from the mens game.

"Since 2004, many of the combined events use the same brand and general make of ball for both men and women, but with different felt coatings. Though the official weight ranges for the two balls are within the same parameters, there’s actually a surprising amount of allowed variance in the weight of the balls (between 54 and 60 grams), but this isn’t what’s at the core of the ball difference. The difference comes from the fact that the men use extra duty felt and the women use regular felt. This means that the men’s ball fluffs up faster and moves more slowly through the air."
Could be. I'm certainly not an expert.
 

McGrathsipan

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Eh? That makes no sense at all. Playing a sport isn't like conquering Everest or something - so it doesn't count if you play with slightly different rules or tools.

The biggest beneficiaries would be spectators not the athletes if the rules got changed. In fact, I can see why current top players would be against introducing a change now. They've already got to the top of their profession with the current rules - the game suits them. Changing it just adds another variable, that might open the field to other players challenging them for their place.
Ill be honest I have zero interest in the womens game. Sure I barely have interest in the mens game anymore its become such a circus. I just remember reading about Megan the Mouth Rapinoe saying women players should be paid the same as men, its probable out of context relative to the OP.

I dont care if its changed or not but from my own experience watching womens football live ( I am invovled in the Juvenile running of my local club) I see that alot of the girls are sometimes lost on the pitches. Some goalkeepers are like small kids relative to the goal frame and the lack of power in some of the players makes the big ptiches seem tough for them to cover distance. So yeah maybe they would benefit from slightly reduced dimensions. They would probably need that change to come from within.
 

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Whenever i've watched womens football the clear difference is the goalkeepers.

Half of them can't reach the crossbar and most of them let in high/long range shots too easily.

I do think smaller goals would help keep it more competitive, but pitch size / ball size is nonsense.
 

That'sHernandez

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It's because I'm infrequent viewer, and I don't play women's football, so I can't truly appreciate how changing the size of the pitch/nets would effect the enjoyment of the sport.
You play men’s football so you do know!

Of course they don’t need any adjustments...
 

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Everyone who advocates smaller or lighter balls either hasn't played with a genuine match-ball in his life or is simply trying to interfere for the sake of it. They could play with a medicine ball, if that's what they want. Don't see myself as a male being in any position to question that.
 

OnlyTwoDaSilvas

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The Dutch are all lanky anyway though aren’t they? It might well be true, I just found that really surprising. Nelson was 5’6’’ and considered a short arse even in those days. Was he really 3 inches taller than the average Brit?
They must be. You ever been on a train in the Netherlands? I'm 6ft6 and I had legroom for days. It was fantastic.
 

Stack

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Whenever i've watched womens football the clear difference is the goalkeepers.

Half of them can't reach the crossbar and most of them let in high/long range shots too easily.

I do think smaller goals would help keep it more competitive, but pitch size / ball size is nonsense.
I think in terms of the game becoming more competitive the biggest driver of that will be greater depth in quality of players. The womens professional game at club level is in its infancy and even within the top leagues the range of ability is quite broad. As the game evolves over time I think there will be greater depth in quality and with that comes tighter competition and less crazy scores
 

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Everyone who advocates smaller or lighter balls either hasn't played with a genuine match-ball in his life or is simply trying to interfere for the sake of it. They could play with a medicine ball, if that's what they want. Don't see myself as a male being in any position to question that.
That's a bit uncharitable. Average height of a woman is slightly shorter than the average height of a 14 year old boy. Boys start using a size 5 football at 14 years old (in the UK at least).
 

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Nah, the huzzle for all the additional infrastructure would not be worth it.

The average height for men in England in mid 19th century was 5`3" as well so you could argue that the womens game now is closer to its intended origins than the mens game.
And rule changes that would lead to less goals, less attractive football? Don`t see the point, I`d argue that there are actually too few nice goals in the men`s game because freekicks or longshots have become so hard to be scored.
So we should make the men's ball, goals and pitches bigger seeing as people are no longer hobbits?

If everyone was so small back then, why would the goals be so big. Surely they must have increased at some point or it just would have been top bins all day back in the old days?
 

Ekkie Thump

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So we should make the men's ball, goals and pitches bigger seeing as people are no longer hobbits?

If everyone was so small back then, why would the goals be so big. Surely they must have increased at some point or it just would have been top bins all day back in the old days?
Apparently not since 1875! Average height back then seems to have been 5'5"
 

Tomuś

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That's a bit uncharitable. Average height of a woman is slightly shorter than the average height of a 14 year old boy. Boys start using a size 5 football at 14 years old (in the UK at least).
Ultimately it comes to the point if they're happy with it. I mean, do you think it's fair for males to suggest changes in THEIR game? It's ridiculuous.
 

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Ultimately it comes to the point if they're happy with it. I mean, do you think it's fair for males to suggest changes in THEIR game? It's ridiculuous.
I think suggesting something is always fair. OP didn't come across as some chauvinistic prick that wants to yell about how women's football sucks, he just wanted to point out something that occured to him. Whether it's needed can be debated, but to say that OP (who might be female for all I know) shouldn't even suggest or discuss something comes across as strangely aggressive. Also: You're talking about "them" as if "the women" are an organization with member cards. Last time I checked not alle females shared one uniform opinion.
 

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Ultimately it comes to the point if they're happy with it. I mean, do you think it's fair for males to suggest changes in THEIR game? It's ridiculuous.
Sure it's fair for males to suggest changes to THEIR game I'm obviously not advocating that we somehow impose them. What would be ridiculous is not to allow suggestions. They're perfectly at liberty to say "no, we're fine" and carry on regardless.
 

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This is an important and interesting point.
The game being awful.
I watch local amateur club football, the male version. Compared to the EPL or Champions league etc its bloody awful. However to the fans of these small amateur teams within the context of the league they play in its exciting football.
I dont go along to watch a schoolboy team playing expecting it to be world class football, I dont expect to see local amateur football be world class football. It is what it is within its own context. Expectations are based on what the level is.
The beauty of amateur and school level football is that within those games there are their own individual stories, talents and scenarios taking place. It doesnt matter that the skill level is light years below the top pro players, its irrelevant.
If we accept the game for what it is and for all the small stories taking place within an actual game it no longer matters if its not the world cup. It becomes exciting within its own framework. Womens football has improved massively in just the last 15 years and there is a lot of improvement to come. However if our expectations of any level dont fit that levels ability then we will always think its awful.
Awful standard doesn’t have to mean bad. I’ve been to el clásico but Rochdale v FC United was 1000% more exciting and enjoyable.

I agree that it’s down to the general public to set our standards accordingly.
 

Tomuś

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I think suggesting something is always fair. OP didn't come across as some chauvinistic prick that wants to yell about how women's football sucks, he just wanted to point out something that occured to him. Whether it's needed can be debated, but to say that OP (who might be female for all I know) shouldn't even suggest or discuss something comes across as strangely aggressive. Also: You're talking about "them" as if "the women" are an organization with member cards. Last time I checked not alle females shared one uniform opinion.
Speaking on the message board is fine, yes. That's why we're all here. Male authorities suggesting that in public and trying to impose it eventhough women don't want that is a different matter.
 

Tomuś

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And no, I'm not suggesting the OP is a chauvinostic prick. Actually I'm one of those guys who think sexism tends to be overplayed these days.
 

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Speaking on the message board is fine, yes. That's why we're all here. Male authorities suggesting that in public and trying to impose it eventhough women don't want that is a different matter.
Haven't seen any authority in here who did that. You also said "everyone who advocates smaller or lighter balls either hasn't played with a genuine match-ball in his life or is simply trying to interfere for the sake of it". I assume you know about as much about OP as I do, so where did that come from?
 

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Is it me or does this sound like nonsense? I know nutrition was bad back then, but 5’3’’ as an average??
It's close enough to true apparently. It's not so crazy when you see Spain's average male height is currently 5'7".

This article has it at 5'5" in 1870.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23896855

Nice to know I would have been average height in the not too distant past :lol:
 

HisNameIsEarl

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The grass should be shorter.

Not sure about the threads on womens football yet, but I suspect them to be llonger.Same for the interviews.
 

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Haven't seen any authority in here who did that. You also said "everyone who advocates smaller or lighter balls either hasn't played with a genuine match-ball in his life or is simply trying to interfere for the sake of it". I assume you know about as much about OP as I do, so where did that come from?
It's simple, you need less power to hit the match-ball properly than the replica ones. As for my take on people interfering for the sake of it - that is my opinion. Isn't this thread all about opinions then?
 

Ekkie Thump

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It's simple, you need less power to hit the match-ball properly than the replica ones. As for my take on people interfering for the sake of it - that is my opinion. Isn't this thread all about opinions then?
Sure, but isn't that more to do with its psi and materials than its size? Genuine question. Like if I built a slightly smaller ball to the exact same specs would it still somehow suck comparatively?
 

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Would be a massive pain in the arse to logistically sort that out.
Would it? It takes minutes to take the goalposts out and clubs repaint the lines to change pitch dimensions all the time to create advantages for the home team.

Maybe it would help. The standard of the female game is awful currently, so maybe trying to chase the specs of the men's game is not the way to go about improving it. It would be interesting to try.
 

Tomuś

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Sure, but isn't that more to do with its psi and materials than its size? Genuine question. Like if I built a slightly smaller ball to the exact same specs would it still somehow suck comparatively?
Not an expert but I think they'd have to alter the specs accordingly for it to be exactly the same. Good point.
 

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Would it? It takes minutes to take the goalposts out and clubs repaint the lines to change pitch dimensions all the time to create advantages for the home team.

Maybe it would help. The standard of the female game is awful currently, so maybe trying to chase the specs of the men's game is not the way to go about improving it. It would be interesting to try.
99.9% of places women's football is played won't even have a second set of goals, let alone a smaller set and the lines get painted on once a year.
 

SER19

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Tennis isn't and it's actually a poor sport for it. Women's tennis has the luxury of being bundled together with the men's tournament but as a spectacle it's a clear step down.

The net play is almost non existent, the rallies don't have the same build up to them - as the players are just interested in hitting the corners as hard as possible knowing their opponent can't reach the ball. The men's game involves a lot more top spin because the risk/reward of trying to hit the ball hard to the corners isn't there - so they build the rallies.
They also play 60% of the mens game which is an enormous difference
 

L1nk

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The goals should be made smaller if nothing else. If women don't want anything changed then nobody should force the changes onto their game. However in the interest in fairness, and against popular opinion today that men and women are all the same in every aspect, the goalposts should definitely be made smaller because women on average are shorter. Hope Solo one of the most popular women goalkeepers in the world at one point stands at 5'9, you're lucky to see a goalkeeper in the womens game reach 6ft, hell even 5'10 to 5'11 is a stretch, where as you're looking at 6'4 for De Gea, 6'6 for Van der Sar, and 6'3 for Schmeichel and that's usually the norm. If you look at alot of women's matches at the pro level it seems to me that the goalkeeping aspect is a struggle in places in doesn't need to be because of this height difference.