Should we just hope a new manager fixes it

Crashoutcassius

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My main concern if we sack ole is that we start the cycle again... Manager needs to get his players in... Needs 3 transfer windows... Needs players to gel...

Right now we have pressure on the club to replace Woodward, the most we have had in years and it can build and build. If we swap managers now that all goes out the window and we reset for 2 years - you can say otherwise but history won't be on your side.

I guess pros for changing manager now - we have good defensive players, we have some excitement up front (although obviously no guarantee a manager - most likely allegri - will get anything out of them) and we have gunpowder - Lukaku money, we can choose to spend no money this Christmas window. A manager like allegri could have a clean start with a fairly complete defence and in theory a talented forward line.

So do we just accept current structure for the coming years and out in allegri right away and just hope again that where the others failed he will make it work and build a team that can get 100 points ?

Personally I hope ole stays as long as the focus stays in changes higher up... First thing a dof would do would be start a manager search anyway !
 

Luke1995

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Almost seems like Woodward sacks them just so he can tell the fans '' We need time for this, we need time for that...'' a genius play, if that's the case, because then it's never his fault
 

MoskvaRed

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The fundamental problem is higher up (Glazers/Woodward) but that does not justify sticking with Ole. Lovely guy, but League One/Norway level. We can at least put out the fire, even though the foundations are sinking. To think otherwise is to sink into nihilism, in which case we may as well all give up.
 

Marcelinho87

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IF we are to sign a new manager we need to continue with this Youth, Courage, Success bollocks.

We need managers that adhere to a United philosophy not their own.
 

Amarsdd

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and fans will be satisfied for a few months. Then an unsatisfactory window followed by some bad results followed by manager-in/manager-out brigades followed by criticisms of Woodward followed by another new manager followed by satisfied fans and so on and so forth.
 

glazed

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If any fans left are still stupid enough to still think the problem lies with the manager and not the owners then they deserve everything they get. I think most of us have seen through that smokescreen now.
 

Smores

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If any fans left are still stupid enough to still think the problem lies with the manager and not the owners then they deserve everything they get. I think most of us have seen through that smokescreen now.
It lies with the bunch of them
 

peridigm

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IF we are to sign a new manager we need to continue with this Youth, Courage, Success bollocks.

We need managers that adhere to a United philosophy not their own.
A new manager is not going to adhere to a United philosophy unless they have been part of United in the past, i.e. Ole.
Moyes, LVG, Jose, Poch, Alegri, etc... are not going to give a hoot about our past history and the way United have played under SAF. Managers want to be known for something and not be a puppet. Ole is obviously a puppet at the moment because he's saying everything the club wants him to say in public. Who knows what his talks with Woodward are like behind closed doors. I'm sure Ole has SAF's ear but I don't think the boss has much influence in the grand scheme of things anymore. This is part of the reason I don't think we should sack Ole. We were given false hope when Jose was sacked. A DoF would be hired and Ole was to be the manager until the end of the season while the club searched for the right manager. Then Ole has the new manager bounce of bounces and he's given the full time job. Can't say I was against it. Then the bottom fell out. Summer comes along and I honestly thought we'd get the transfer business done early. Then AWB dragged on. Then Maguire dragged on. It was apparent nothing was changing. Here we are. Everyone wants to sack Ole so someone else can hopefully put out the fire. I don't think we'd see the new manager bounce like we did with Ole if Poch took over. I also think the majority of the players believe in his plan. I think a few felt alienated and are no longer in the squad. MY biggest fear now is that if things keep going the way they are going, we're going to have trouble recruiting a manager that wants to rebuild and players that want to be part of the rebuild. It's going to be hard to lower the wage bill in our current state.
 

dove

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My main concern if we sack ole is that we start the cycle again... Manager needs to get his players in... Needs 3 transfer windows... Needs players to gel...

Right now we have pressure on the club to replace Woodward, the most we have had in years and it can build and build. If we swap managers now that all goes out the window and we reset for 2 years - you can say otherwise but history won't be on your side.

I guess pros for changing manager now - we have good defensive players, we have some excitement up front (although obviously no guarantee a manager - most likely allegri - will get anything out of them) and we have gunpowder - Lukaku money, we can choose to spend no money this Christmas window. A manager like allegri could have a clean start with a fairly complete defence and in theory a talented forward line.

So do we just accept current structure for the coming years and out in allegri right away and just hope again that where the others failed he will make it work and build a team that can get 100 points ?

Personally I hope ole stays as long as the focus stays in changes higher up... First thing a dof would do would be start a manager search anyway !
How about we scrap these ridiculous excuses and rate the manager from day 1? Not after 5 transfer windows, not after he got his 25 players but game by game, how every single club in the world apart from us does. Good managers have immediate impact, we are the only ones inventing stupid excuses.
 

Bebestation

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I say for the first time in my life -

**** the united philosophy
**** the SAF philosophy

That will never go away & its not something we need to build as shown by Ole - it's in our youth system & it's even in our ex players and coaches.

Just get a manager now who the players are scared off who judges the players on their abilities - but also a manager who is able to look at a group of players and know how to get the best out of them rather than come in to a club & already have a set mind of a clear tactic and type of player he does not like so he alienates players (Mourinho). Klopp could have come to Liverpool and had the clear intention of buying a lewandowski but he didn't & looked at his players & adapted his tactics to play a false 9 in firmino.

Also SAF didn't build his time here on the class of 92 - he got the time here first by players like ince, cantona, irwin and kanchelskis.

Let's get some players close to reaching their prime - this is what city & Liverpool have, not youngsters - from all around the world, from coaches from around the world because coaches from the world than in England have been better - the reason SAF went for Querioz.
 

Popcorn

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Problem is that many see sticking with Ole is the just hope option. The club is a mess.
 

NotoriousISSY

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Ole is not the right manager and should be relieved of his duties in the summer, but evidently the current position is not just a football problem.

As a football organisation, Manchester United is stuck in a time warp. Football has changed, and we've not moved with it on the pitch, in the boardroom or in the behind the scenes planning.

The current top teams are structured in a way to allow 'managers' to focus on coaching and leading their team. Of course the head coach feeds their ideas across, but their main place is to improve and maintain the crop of talent at their disposal. Whilst I don't believe our manager(s) in recent times have had full control over recruitment (coaches, youth system, scouts and obviously players), they don't have the technical teams currently known to be successful at clubs such as Liverpool, Dortmund, Leicester etc.

We feared the Glazer regime would remove us as top dogs, and after the greatest manager of all time moved on, it's finally happened. I've accepted it, I can't see any sign of change for at least another 5 years.

We are Customers, and it's time to start talking with our pockets. It's time to accept a few more years of mediocrity in the hope that the football club cannot sustain the Glazers, the biggest leeches in the history of top level, elite football.

I made a decision in 2017 to stop going to games. I support the club, the team and whoever the manager is, but I won't contribute to the MUFC coffers. I don't pay a premium TV subscription. I don't buy merchandise...and I'll never buy a Chevy :lol:

It makes limited difference in isolation, but I hope similar patterns spread to the masses, and the old top red cliche takes a little break. It's okay to step back as a fan - it's not about glory, it's about being taken for a ride.
 

ExoduS

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We need to get rid of that Chevy logo. I think that gold logo on red jersey looks extremely stupid. I think it tells other team that they are playing bunch of losers. No joke.

We need to get a football system in place where players come to the club and get better. Everyone comes to Manchester United and gets worse for some reason. Why is that? What if Martial somewhere else would be just a notch below Messi or Ronaldo? Hypotheticals here, but man... Sanchez, Pogba, Fred, Maguire etc all looked so great before joining Manchester United. All of a sudden these guys forgot how to play? Sanchez was a freaking monster and it appears we destroyed him. Not even going to talk about Pogba. I am looking at Harry Maguire. Man...

Ole, even freaking Ole as a coach started good and then got bad. It's like a freaking curse. It's as if Ferguson made a wish to be the best managed ever at expense of United sucking forever after him. Some things just don't make sense. How can Ole come in and win 10-11 games straight and then keep losing as soon as we gave him permanent contract? How can player like Martial walk in and be amazing and shift into total mediocrity? Why older players come to die at Manchester United and young players come to stagnate or even regress?

Leadership man. That's what is lost since Ferguson left. There are no leaders up, there are no leaders on the pitch. Ole just doesn't sound like a leader. Maguire? You can't just become a captain after being here for 4-5 months? Sure you got to earn that? Him getting to be a captain just proves how weak we are in terms of leadership.
 

Bobcat

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and fans will be satisfied for a few months. Then an unsatisfactory window followed by some bad results followed by manager-in/manager-out brigades followed by criticisms of Woodward followed by another new manager followed by satisfied fans and so on and so forth.
This is my biggest fear right here. To be perfectly honest, i have backed Ole all the way but have to admit the results have not been good enough this year. That being said, the squad is a fecking mess and hes been shafted big time by the board. I wish we knew what promises he was given at the start of the season by the board. Yes the deadwood needed to go, but Herrera and Lukaku were not deadwood and we abso-fecking-loutely should have replaced them

Neville and Ferdinand were absolutely right. How on earth did we end up having the second highest wage bill in the league, with this squad. Even if we get in caf favorite Poch he is going to have his work cut out for him and imo he will need at least 2-3 windows before we can start talking about mounting any sort of league challenge
 

Amadaeus

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When will some United fans begin to realize that Ole isn’t a good manager? It seems like Ole will make a fantastic politician that Trump will be proud of as he is great at convincing fans and the board that he is a good manager that needs time.

United have had some good manager with Mourinho and Van Gaal and we won trophies and got in the champions league. However, these were managers that only looked at short term success. Perhaps if we hired a good manager again with a more modern, progressive football philosophy like Pochettino, that can transform a club immediately and show consistency in performance then a lot of our problems will be solved. :eek:
 

Bobcat

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When will some United fans begin to realize that Ole isn’t a good manager? It seems like Ole will make a fantastic politician that Trump will be proud of as he is great at convincing fans and the board that he is a good manager that needs time.

United have had some good manager with Mourinho and Van Gaal and we won trophies and got in the champions league. However, these were managers that only looked at short term success. Perhaps if we hired a good manager again with a more modern, progressive football philosophy like Pochettino, that can transform a club immediately and show consistency in performance then a lot of our problems will be solved. :eek:
Pochettino isn't going to do anything with this squad of players. If he gets here he needs at least 2-3 windows to strengthen the squad, which might prove very difficult with the current ownership and clueless Ed as CEO.

The sad thing is, i can guarantee you that if Poch has us in a similar position this time next year, people will call for his head as well
 

rollingstoned1

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we can hope yes but it is better we do not expect it. Changing a manager in the hope of changing our fortunes is basically just hoping that treating the symptoms will treat the cause, we have now almost 7 years worth of evidence of this under managers of different philosophies and approaches and squads with players who have experienced Fergie's winning culture along with those who have no connection to the club. Consistently they have all underperformed and it can't be a coincidence. Unless we do a proper root cause analysis without ex post facto knee jerk rationalizations we are basically doomed to just keep repeating this cycle where for a while we get optimistic because of a new manager 'at the wheel' and gradually act like he was the wrong appointment at the time when it looks like it is going sideways or isn't all hunky dory.
 

Greck

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We aren't hiring a new manager to fix anything. There's really nothing to be 'fixed' or nothing to continue. We've reset to zero with the current team being stripped of its old spine. Thank you for that Ole but this is actually the perfect time to implement a new vision before we've gone and spent another 300m in the wrong direction.
 

SteveW

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My main concern if we sack ole is that we start the cycle again... Manager needs to get his players in... Needs 3 transfer windows... Needs players to gel...

Right now we have pressure on the club to replace Woodward, the most we have had in years and it can build and build. If we swap managers now that all goes out the window and we reset for 2 years - you can say otherwise but history won't be on your side.

I guess pros for changing manager now - we have good defensive players, we have some excitement up front (although obviously no guarantee a manager - most likely allegri - will get anything out of them) and we have gunpowder - Lukaku money, we can choose to spend no money this Christmas window. A manager like allegri could have a clean start with a fairly complete defence and in theory a talented forward line.

So do we just accept current structure for the coming years and out in allegri right away and just hope again that where the others failed he will make it work and build a team that can get 100 points ?

Personally I hope ole stays as long as the focus stays in changes higher up... First thing a dof would do would be start a manager search anyway !
We haven't even gone through the cycle with Ole. 8 out 3 in is hardly giving him the players he needs.

He's been badly under-resourced and expected to somehow perform anyway. You need to at least give a manager a reasonable chance to show what he can do before discarding him for another.

His job has basically been injury crisis management since around last March.
 

devilish

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a top manager will make us play better. If he's got connections then he will bring his own coaching staff which would probably be way better then Carrick, Mckenna and the rest of the inexperienced guys Ole had surrounded himself with. However that's all a top manager can do. He might use his influence to attract better players but he's not going to identify and negotiate for players on the club's behalf. That's the DOF, CEO and negotiator's job. Hence why I think United need a rethink. I'd say Woodward should become business CEO with a new guy brought in as football CEO (VDS?, Marotta?). Then we need to appoint experienced people in key roles. I'd go for Rangnick as DOF and Mitchell as head of recruitment. Only then we should bring a new manager in.
 

Florida Man

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Even with good owners, Ole would still be the wrong guy to manage us. He's just so out of his depth tactically and it couldn't be more obvious.

And even with our owners, a proper manager can get some level of results whether it's playing style or wins. You can bring up LVG and Mourinho who have had history but the former actually had a strategy but he was terrible at getting the right players to play at a high level consistently and break down teams who sit back. The latter actually got results to an extent but he's a shell of his former self (LVG was too) and was terrible at man management with our generation of players.

Make no mistake, our woes have much to do with our administration but let's not pretend someone like Ole has no real effect on what we see on the field. It might be Ed's fault we don't have the talent we need, but it's Ole and the training staff's fault that our current professional footballers can't do the simple things like control a ball, play triangles, and do something that isn't totally predictable.
 

Crashoutcassius

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How about we scrap these ridiculous excuses and rate the manager from day 1? Not after 5 transfer windows, not after he got his 25 players but game by game, how every single club in the world apart from us does. Good managers have immediate impact, we are the only ones inventing stupid excuses.
I guess this thread isn't about what we should do rather about what will happen. There is a long list of things we should do..
 

Crashoutcassius

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If any fans left are still stupid enough to still think the problem lies with the manager and not the owners then they deserve everything they get. I think most of us have seen through that smokescreen now.
I agree but do you agree that a change in manager now takes the pressure off the club to change Woodward ?
 

Kostur

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Problems of Ole and Woodward both being incredibly shit are not mutually exclusive.

Out of the two, make no mistake Woodward won't go. He's gotten Glazers the deal through, they won't sack him, he's their man. Unless Glazers go we're stuck with him and as I've said before I doubt he'll share his power with any DOF of any sorts. Even if he hired a DOF (or just any incarnation of it), it would still have to be his man.
 

meamth

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My main concern if we sack ole is that we start the cycle again... Manager needs to get his players in... Needs 3 transfer windows... Needs players to gel...

Right now we have pressure on the club to replace Woodward, the most we have had in years and it can build and build. If we swap managers now that all goes out the window and we reset for 2 years - you can say otherwise but history won't be on your side.

I guess pros for changing manager now - we have good defensive players, we have some excitement up front (although obviously no guarantee a manager - most likely allegri - will get anything out of them) and we have gunpowder - Lukaku money, we can choose to spend no money this Christmas window. A manager like allegri could have a clean start with a fairly complete defence and in theory a talented forward line.

So do we just accept current structure for the coming years and out in allegri right away and just hope again that where the others failed he will make it work and build a team that can get 100 points ?

Personally I hope ole stays as long as the focus stays in changes higher up... First thing a dof would do would be start a manager search anyway !
Another honeymoon period, great.

Then new season comes in and the club runs with the same shyte transfer strategy and we're back at square one. Sack another manager.
 

DBT85

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A new manager might make players play better, might get better results, but he'd still have to deal with the shitshow from above.

They'd walk into a dressing room next season missing Pogba, Matic, probably Jones and Lingard as well, so we need to get REAL good on our transfers if you expect things to improve.

At best this year I tihnk we could have managed 4th. With a squad missing those players as well and trying to bed new ones in you could easily be looking at worse as a best case scenario.

Will fans give that manager the time, will the club take its head from its arse and accept that the squad is not nearly good enough? Or are we going to be having the same conversation in 18 months? Fairly sure its the latter.
 

Crashoutcassius

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When will some United fans begin to realize that Ole isn’t a good manager? It seems like Ole will make a fantastic politician that Trump will be proud of as he is great at convincing fans and the board that he is a good manager that needs time.

United have had some good manager with Mourinho and Van Gaal and we won trophies and got in the champions league. However, these were managers that only looked at short term success. Perhaps if we hired a good manager again with a more modern, progressive football philosophy like Pochettino, that can transform a club immediately and show consistency in performance then a lot of our problems will be solved. :eek:
Okay so you are the first poster who is in the 'but this time is different' camp

Out of interest would 5 more failed managers change your mind, that we will struggle to succeed with Woodward ? Would 10? Or is it unshakable for you that the level above the manager isn't important you just need the next manager
 

Emrethis

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Okay so you are the first poster who is in the 'but this time is different' camp

Out of interest would 5 more failed managers change your mind, that we will struggle to succeed with Woodward ? Would 10? Or is it unshakable for you that the level above the manager isn't important you just need the next manager
You do realise that Woodward and the Glazers WANT Ole to stay?
 

Siorac

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I agree but do you agree that a change in manager now takes the pressure off the club to change Woodward ?
Woodward has been criticised relentlessly for at least a couple of years now. They don't seem to give a feck about it, no matter who happens to be the manager.
 
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Out of interest would 5 more failed managers change your mind, that we will struggle to succeed with Woodward ? Would 10? Or is it unshakable for you that the level above the manager isn't important you just need the next manager
You see @Crashoutcassius, this annoys me more than anything on here right now. If Klopp has come in when LVG did or when Mourinho did and got the backing they got for 2 years, he'd have pissed it. How it that even a debate?

Mourinho got to bring in every single one of his favourite players right up until year 3 and the likes of Willian when they club thought "feck me, this is very short term thinking all the time, can we really carry on like this?". Those of you who hate Woodward the most tend to agree with that.
 

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The biggest issue is that SAF was a DOF/Manager. Now we are trying to recreate what he did with different managers, which will not happen. We were blessed with the greatest manager of all time in both ability and longivity. He transcended his position at the club and the usual manager responsibilities.

We need a figure with experience, vision and strategic thinking to impose a clear blueprint of how the club will operate in terms of football and signings. Only then will we be able to make transfers and change managers without having 3 years of effin "rebuilding" when we decide to change something.

Woodward seems to be a very capable businessman and I`m not asking for him to be fired. What we need is him to deal only with the business aspects of the club.
 

VorZakone

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How about we scrap these ridiculous excuses and rate the manager from day 1? Not after 5 transfer windows, not after he got his 25 players but game by game, how every single club in the world apart from us does. Good managers have immediate impact, we are the only ones inventing stupid excuses.
Finally someone said it.
 

cyril C

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A new DOF first, although the latest purchase seem OK or a pass, if not great. Then a new manager, to utilise the existing players better, with better training regime, better tactics. So at least we know how to defend set pieces, and how to break down a bus.
 
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Let me just list it for you @Crashoutcassius, the kind of environment you claim "no manager could do well in":

LVG Summer 1: ADM €75m, Shaw €37.5m, Herrera €36m, Rojo €20m, Blind €17.5m = €186m
LVG Summer 2: His favourite player in the World Schweinsteiger €9m, Darmian €18m, his favourite youth prospect Depay €34m, the midfielder you ALL wanted Schneiderlin €35m, Martial €60m = €156m

Mou Summer 1: Paul fecking Pogba €105m, his favourite player in the World Zlatan, Bailly €38m, Bundesliga POTY Mkhitaryan €42m = €186m
Mou Summer 2 + Sanchez: Another big manager fave Matic €44.7m, Lukaku €84.7m, Lindelöf €35m, Sanchez €34m. = €198.4m

And every single manager has been given more time here than he'd have been given at any other club, right now we're backing Ole so much that we're a laughing stock to the World, currently with a 37% win rate but are we sacking him? Nope, we're backing him still. Poch had done a cracking job at Spurs and had them in the CL final in May, fecker wasn't even allowed a blip before being booted out of the door by Spurs of all teams.

Oh yeah, the likes of Klopp and Poch could never succeed with that kind of backing. What an absolutely bizarre myth you've all made up.

The only managers who have an argument for not being fully backed are Ole and Moyes, but I have a real feeling a fair part of that is some self inflicted dithering from Dave and Ole's "it must be the right player" mantra.
 
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El Zoido

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If any fans left are still stupid enough to still think the problem lies with the manager and not the owners then they deserve everything they get. I think most of us have seen through that smokescreen now.
There’s still tons of them. I sincerely believe this is a large part of the reason why we’re here now. Moyes, LVG, Jose, now Ole. All talked about in awful terms even today. The owners have never truly been held accountable, you get the odd protest here and there but nothing major. The more we decline the more the manager is the one that gets the blame.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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LVG's net spend in two years - 129m

Mourinho's net spend in 3 years - 280m

Ole's net spend in the summer - 70m

Klopp's net spend in his 3 years at Liverpool - 74m

Pochettino's net spend in his time at Tottenham - 18m

This is proof that the board has appointed the wrong managers 4 times and backing them has led us to a huge amount of money wasted. Add that to the fact that every new manager appointed wants to change the squad again and style of play thereby spending millions before improvements can be seen. And for some reason these millions spent are on shit players. I can't imagine we would be where we are if it was Klopp or Pochettino instead of Mourinho that spent that amount of money

Anyways The only hope I see is appointing a competent DOF with a plan and we follow that plan, appointing the managers and players that fit into a system.

But if this isn't going to happen then the closest we can get to a DOF is a serial winner coach that has proven to carry out a rebuild without one and succeeded in it. Pochettino and Tuchel are the closest in this category
 
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glazed

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There’s still tons of them. I sincerely believe this is a large part of the reason why we’re here now. Moyes, LVG, Jose, now Ole. All talked about in awful terms even today. The owners have never truly been held accountable, you get the odd protest here and there but nothing major. The more we decline the more the manager is the one that gets the blame.
It's unfortunate that so many people confuse stupidity with loyalty. The problem in many ways is that the Glazer ownership came about in a chaotic and opportunistic fashion because of SAF's Rock of Gibraltar feud. And people don't want to point the finger at him (except Roy Keene.)
 

glazed

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I agree but do you agree that a change in manager now takes the pressure off the club to change Woodward ?
It depends who it is I suppose. If they give it to Poch and agree to his reported conditions then maybe. If it's just another high class mercenary who accepts Woodward's existing rules then hopefully not.