"Shredding his legacy at every turn"

[RedRover]

We played pragmatic football in Ferguson's last few seasons, but he was riding the top of end brilliant careers by Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Evra, VDS and then the beginning of a brilliant career by De Gea. RvP was a fantastic buy but he gave us only one good season. Rooney was still a fantastic, through no longer world class, player in his last season under Ferguson.

These are LVG's players, but except for Rooney and perhaps Memphis you could reasonably argue all his players have played very well.

As for why LVG couldn't attract Bale, Neymar or Muller, I think it's as simple as they're all happy where they are and saw no upside for leaving incredibly successful clubs in beautiful cities for a club still climbing out of the Moyes era in a less than ideal city to live in. Manchester is no Madrid nor Munich. We need to show at least one season with great results before we can expect a truly massive name, in or near his prime, to come to OT.

We did play pragmatic football under Fergie over the last few years but as I said above - he created a team better than the sum of its parts. They had the hunger, desire and energy that this side seems to lack. That is testament to what a great coach Fergie was. I suspect if he'd had equivalent funds to spend we'd have been much better in terms of quality.

The point I'm making regarding transfers is that you don't have to be a genius to work out that any of those three players you mention will significantly improve your side. If his "philosophy" is solid, boring football - heavily reliant on one superstar to actually create any attacking flair then that's a major problem.

City haven't signed any players of that calibre in recent years but still have plenty of threat going forward. There are other managers out there without those kind of players who can produce entertaining and successful sides. There are plenty other sides without absolutely top drawer attacking players who are more creative than us - in fact, the stats suggest that the vast majority of the PL clubs carry more of a threat than we do going forward. I don't see how any of that reflects well on the manager.

The managers job is to get the best out of what he has and to address any issues he has in the squad. He's had three transfer windows to do that. If the top players won;t come it's up to him and his scouting team to identify other players to come in and do that job.

 

[RedRover]

Well he's not managed to put a consistent forward unit out there for a while due to injuries - Herrera and Lingard are a big miss at the moment

The biggest issue, and Van Gaal has to take some blame for this, is sticking with a woefully out of form Rooney

and this season was almost a new start really - so its more like 4 months with a new formation

That just raises another issue for me. His constant chopping and changing last year to try and come up with something that worked means we're not as far down the curve as we should be.

The Rooney issue is dire. Players slightly out of form get dropped for months, yet he picks Rooney week in, week out and even moves players who are performing to other positions to crow bar him in. It's laughable that a manager of his experience can go on like that. Totally undermines him in my opinion.

 

[Spock]

We did play pragmatic football under Fergie over the last few years but as I said above - he created a team better than the sum of its parts. They had the hunger, desire and energy that this side seems to lack. That is testament to what a great coach Fergie was. I suspect if he'd had equivalent funds to spend we'd have been much better in terms of quality.

The point I'm making regarding transfers is that you don't have to be a genius to work out that any of those three players you mention will significantly improve your side. If his "philosophy" is solid, boring football - heavily reliant on one superstar to actually create any attacking flair then that's a major problem.

City haven't signed any players of that calibre in recent years but still have plenty of threat going forward. There are other managers out there without those kind of players who can produce entertaining and successful sides. There are plenty other sides without absolutely top drawer attacking players who are more creative than us - in fact, the stats suggest that the vast majority of the PL clubs carry more of a threat than we do going forward. I don't see how any of that reflects well on the manager.

The managers job is to get the best out of what he has and to address any issues he has in the squad. He's had three transfer windows to do that. If the top players won;t come it's up to him and his scouting team to identify other players to come in and do that job.

Had things gone right with Rooney, Memphis and Di Maria we'd be well clear in first place and have Group B locked up right now.

Di Maria is as close to a top player you can get without being Messi and Ronaldo, but for reasons we all know, it didn't work out. Rooney's body and mind are shot, and it's up to the manager to acknowledge this. Memphis has been woeful so far, but his potential is clear and we must be patient.

In his three transfer windows, Van Gaal has done very well, but the Di Maria meltdown was something none of us could have anticipated and I'm not even sure we've ever seen anything quite like it. But we moved on and brought in Memphis, who's no Di Maria but we can expect big things to come from him...the sooner, the better!

I like the way you phrased your post -- "[LVG must] to address any issues he has in the squad". Right now, early December 2015, he's had four months to address the Rooney problem yet it's not ever clear that he acknowledges that there is a Rooney problem.

 

[RedRover]

Had things gone right with Rooney, Memphis and Di Maria we'd be well clear in first place and have Group B locked up right now.

Di Maria is as close to a top player you can get without being Messi and Ronaldo, but for reasons we all know, it didn't work out. Rooney's body and mind are shot, and it's up to the manager to acknowledge this. Memphis has been woeful so far, but his potential is clear and we must be patient.

In his three transfer windows, Van Gaal has done very well, but the Di Maria meltdown was something none of us could have anticipated and I'm not even sure we've ever seen anything quite like it. But we moved on and brought in Memphis, who's no Di Maria but we can expect big things to come from him...the sooner, the better!

I like the way you phrased your post -- "[LVG must] to address any issues he has in the squad". Right now, early December 2015, he's had four months to address the Rooney problem yet it's not ever clear that he acknowledges that there is a Rooney problem.

Di Maria lacked the desire to be here and put the work in - but Van Gaal's constant chopping and changing as to where he should play clearly didn't help. For me he takes some responsibility for that. This is an example of the club letting a player who was supposed to be our talisman go, without adequately replacing him.

To expect Memphis to come in and set the world alight is at best naive and at worst incompetent. He's a young kid with one decent season under his belt and a big move to take in. Bringing in young players is fine, but you if you do you need to be patient if it doesn't work and he hasn't been. He's another one who's face fits sometimes then not others.

As for Rooney - anyone could see he isn't the player he was. And frankly consistently picking him and moving the likes of Martial and Mata to other positions to accommodate him is laughable.

Even if you accept that most of Van Gaal's players have done alright - why can he still not get the performances out of them? They are his players, they are generally pretty experienced, yet he still isn't able to get us playing anything resembling coherent football in the final third.

That suggests he's either bought the wrong type of players or hasn't addressed a number of areas which needed to be addressed. It's summed up by his discussing the need for "pace" a few weeks ago in mid-November. The transfer window closed only a few months ago - did he not know his squad well enough then to realise that was a problem?

 

[Spock]

Di Maria lacked the desire to be here and put the work in - but Van Gaal's constant chopping and changing as to where he should play clearly didn't help. For me he takes some responsibility for that. This is an example of the club letting a player who was supposed to be our talisman go, without adequately replacing him.

To expect Memphis to come in and set the world alight is at best naive and at worst incompetent. He's a young kid with one decent season under his belt and a big move to take in. Bringing in young players is fine, but you if you do you need to be patient if it doesn't work and he hasn't been. He's another one who's face fits sometimes then not others.

As for Rooney - anyone could see he isn't the player he was. And frankly consistently picking him and moving the likes of Martial and Mata to other positions to accommodate him is laughable.

Even if you accept that most of Van Gaal's players have done alright - why can he still not get the performances out of them? They are his players, they are generally pretty experienced, yet he still isn't able to get us playing anything resembling coherent football in the final third.

That suggests he's either bought the wrong type of players or hasn't addressed a number of areas which needed to be addressed. It's summed up by his discussing the need for "pace" a few weeks ago in mid-November. The transfer window closed only a few months ago - did he not know his squad well enough then to realise that was a problem?

Isn't it clear, at least with the benefit of hindsight, that Di Maria never wanted to go to United? And that when his home was burglarized that it greatly unsettled him? I can blame Van Gaal for not seeing that Di Maria really didn't want to come to OT, but he can't blamed for trying new roles for him once his form tailed off badly after a great start.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Memphis is the next Di Maria but he did come to us with a massive reputation as one for the future. He lit up the Dutch league, but this is the BPL, so patience is warranted but so are high expectations.

As for "not getting the performances out of [the team]" it's painfully obvious that the problem lies almost entirely at the feet of our captain, right? So the question really is -- who is responsible for Rooney's shambolic form, Rooney or Van Gaal? There's no question in my mind that Rooney himself is responsible for his loss of pace, his inability to beat defenders, his poor first touch and his lack of power on his shots.

Other new hires under Van Gaal, from Blind to Martial, have been fantastic. Not Messi or Ronaldo fantastic, but fantastic. Memphis is the only disappointment for me so far -- Di Maria aside, but we can't deny external circumstances -- but even then no one here has written him as a flop. I trust you haven't.

Van Gaal hasn't brought in the "wrong type of players" -- a player he inherited, the club captain, has let the manager, the club and the supporters down.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Ronaldo had an absolutely huge reputation in the footballing community. Let's not rewrite history. Ronaldo was being courted by every single big club.

That said, it's not young players who have huge reputations that we had a problem signing but the more established older ones with bug reputations. We missed a lot of those.

Shaw was PFA team of the year at 18, Depay lead PSV to a title and was courted by Bayern, PSG and Liverpool. When we signed Ronaldo he was a young player with a lot of potential not a proven superstar.

 

[RedRover]

Isn't it clear, at least with the benefit of hindsight, that Di Maria never wanted to go to United? And that when his home was burglarized that it greatly unsettled him? I can blame Van Gaal for not seeing that Di Maria really didn't want to come to OT, but he can't blamed for trying new roles for him once his form tailed off badly after a great start.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting that Memphis is the next Di Maria but he did come to us with a massive reputation as one for the future. He lit up the Dutch league, but this is the BPL, so patience is warranted but so are high expectations.

As for "not getting the performances out of [the team]" it's painfully obvious that the problem lies almost entirely at the feet of our captain, right? So the question really is -- who is responsible for Rooney's shambolic form, Rooney or Van Gaal? There's no question in my mind that Rooney himself is responsible for his loss of pace, his inability to beat defenders, his poor first touch and his lack of power on his shots.

Other new hires under Van Gaal, from Blind to Martial, have been fantastic. Not Messi or Ronaldo fantastic, but fantastic. Memphis is the only disappointment for me so far -- Di Maria aside, but we can't deny external circumstances -- but even then no one here has written him as a flop. I trust you haven't.

Van Gaal hasn't brought in the "wrong type of players" -- a player he inherited, the club captain, has let the manager, the club and the supporters down.

Di Maria was, and is a quality player. Correctly handled and with a bit more luck there's no doubt he could have been a success here. Van Gaal is not responsible for Di Maria no settling in this country, or his lack of desire when things got tough - but I maintain that not giving him a run in a particular position to allow him to settle and get his form did not help.

At the end of the day we can debate this forever. The fact is he is sticking with Rooney even though his performances don't deserve it - that's clear double standards when you see what happens to others and there is no benefit to the team in doing that - especially since other, better performing players then get shunted into different positions. That, to me is a disgrace.

And regardless of who he has brought in - we are still short of attacking quality - a fact that Van Gaal himself alludes to. That is a failure to address issues that were obvious last season. I find it ridiculous that a manager can bemoan a "lack of pace" when the transfer window only closed a few months ago. The time to address that issue was then - not in January, when the quality of available players is generally significantly lower than in the summer. It shows a severe lack of foresight, or a lack of understanding as to what was needed at the time - despite having a year to assess what he had.

 

[tombombadil]

So there seems to be a lot of anger on the forum right now directed at the manager, journalists being opportunistic and dependent on clicks tend to tap into those emotions and fuel them in a bit of a self-fulfilling cycle. The best article in this vein is one by Rob Smyth I’m sure you’ve all seen. In the summer of 2006 after 3 years of being in the wilderness as far as the title goes and Fergie was being written off by many, many people. I’ll link the article at the bottom because for people who haven’t seen it it’s well worth a read.

The article itself was ill-timed, as Man Utd’s form in the second half of the 05-06 season was very promising. Why I mention it is because of what came before that half season of relative brightness. In 2003 we won the title off the back of a good defence lead by our new signing Ferdinand and the goals of RvN and Scholes. We then sold Veron and David Beckham and had our worst and best transfer window ever. Kleberson, Howard, both Djemba twins and a French striker that wasn’t Thierry Henry. Oh and a show pony with a bad haircut, more on him later.

That season went poorly. We came third, while failing to score in just over a 5th of our league games. We score 64 goals in total that year, despite having Ruud Van Nistlerooy hitting 20. After an exciting début from our new number 7 things weren’t as easy and many called for the head of a manager with 8 League titles to his name because he’d failed to get the best out of a proven world class Argentine, sold our most marketable player and replaced him with a kid. To remedy this lack of goals, he went out and bought Louis Saha in January with Alan Smith, Gabriel Heinze and Wayne Rooney in the summer. This was make or break for the manager, in 5 years since the treble team he’d sold the England captain, star striker and defensive rock, failed to adapt his system to his expensive South American acquisition while making no real waves in Europe since and even failing in his bread and butter, the league.

Things dramatically improved the next season, oh no… hang on. No, that’s right, they got worse, my bad. Saha and Van Nistlerooy were ruined by injuries leaving a teenage Rooney to lead the line, a good cup run inexplicably ended with a defeat to Arsenal in the least deserving result in anything, sport or otherwise, ever. The knives were out, 58 goals! 58! Playing our recently acquired striker in midfield and relying on a truly useless, definitely never going to make it Darren Fletcher far too often. Since his last league title he’d spent £80m, not including breaking the British transfer record the year before and taken the team backwards. Failing to score in 10 of the 38 league games that season was the end for some. The man had lost it, he should have retired in 2002 like he said he would. The small mercy being he saved us from Sven Goran Eriksson but when it was known Mourinho was available we were foolish to let him go to Chelsea.

The 05-06 season started badly, lounging in 7th at the end of October and very shortly about to see our captain and club icon unceremoniously removed before Christmas, our only other senior midfielder going blind just in time for the Christmas festivities and failing to get out of the group stage of the CL. For extra good measure our star striker and major goal threat was dropped after falling out with the show pony. A move that validated SAF’s poor choice in horses to some, especially when the show pony had a falling out with our future star Rooney at the Euros and SAF went to lengths only shown to Beckham and Cantona previously to keep him. The club was literally falling apart according to most and the band aid? “A Pirlo when a Gattuso was needed”.

That just about brings us up to the article. While some Man Utd supporters had seen enough in the latter stages of the previous season to be hopeful, many weren’t. The events of the 2006-2007 season onwards should be fresh in the memory for most so I won’t bother with that, needless to say it wasn’t quite what Rob Smyth had in mind.

I’m not entirely sure why I felt the need to write all that out, but there have been plenty of criticisms of our attack and how little we create recently and people saying they’re on the verge of giving up on the team because it’s so boring maybe a little bit of perspective is required. Great teams take time and work, no matter how much money you spend and how many players you buy. For those saying this is the most boring United side they’ve ever seen, they didn’t watch us in 2004.

There is too much short-termism in football and even SAF, a manager who knew the league saw his way through some times with an attack more toothless even than this one. While the acknowledgement that Martial and Depay aren’t going to carry us to glory this season might be hard to take given how much it looks there for the taking might be galling (and I don’t think we’re going to get a Cantona-esque signing to invigorate us in January) it doesn’t mean the team cannot improve under the current manager. Young players take time to develop and while LvG isn’t SAF, he is a very good manager.

The team isn’t falling apart like it was under Moyes, the urge to chop managers at a difficult moment was something that the fan base was almost unanimous in wanting to avoid. For those so eager to see us oust a manager less than 18 months into his time here because we aren’t as fluid as we’d like I just thought I’d highlight a second time where being patient with a manager who has a proven track record of success despite some less than ideal results and performances with young players has shown dividends. Who knows what the club would look like if we’d written off SAF back in 2004? Sometimes despite it seeming like you're impossibly far away from where you want to be the smallest thing or the least inspiring signing can be all that separates you from massive success. Sacking a manager is the biggest change you can make at a club and should be done with extreme caution and when there is no other option. I don't think we're there yet.


http://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/jul/31/sport.comment

The article, since all you miserable bastards need something to smile about.

Sack Fergie, Sell Goggs!!!

 

[Spock]

Di Maria was, and is a quality player. Correctly handled and with a bit more luck there's no doubt he could have been a success here. Van Gaal is not responsible for Di Maria no settling in this country, or his lack of desire when things got tough - but I maintain that not giving him a run in a particular position to allow him to settle and get his form did not help.

At the end of the day we can debate this forever. The fact is he is sticking with Rooney even though his performances don't deserve it - that's clear double standards when you see what happens to others and there is no benefit to the team in doing that - especially since other, better performing players then get shunted into different positions. That, to me is a disgrace.

And regardless of who he has brought in - we are still short of attacking quality - a fact that Van Gaal himself alludes to. That is a failure to address issues that were obvious last season. I find it ridiculous that a manager can bemoan a "lack of pace" when the transfer window only closed a few months ago. The time to address that issue was then - not in January, when the quality of available players is generally significantly lower than in the summer. It shows a severe lack of foresight, or a lack of understanding as to what was needed at the time - despite having a year to assess what he had.

Responding to the first point:

Di Maria was, and is a quality player. Correctly handled and with a bit more luck there's no doubt he could have been a success here. Van Gaal is not responsible for Di Maria no settling in this country, or his lack of desire when things got tough - but I maintain that not giving him a run in a particular position to allow him to settle and get his form did not help.

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that Di Maria joined us last season, but it's obvious now that he never wanted to come to OT and that he was desperate to leave. Di Maria's desire to leave United had nothing to do with being played out of position for 1 or 2 matches.

Re the second point:

At the end of the day we can debate this forever. The fact is he is sticking with Rooney even though his performances don't deserve it - that's clear double standards when you see what happens to others and there is no benefit to the team in doing that - especially since other, better performing players then get shunted into different positions. That, to me is a disgrace.

I completely agree. But then again, one can understand now why LVG has not dropped Rooney -- to the public outcry to build up to a point that he CAN drop him. Imagine the alternative...dropping the England and United captain prematurely. You and I agree that Rooney has had more than his fair share of chances but he still has defenders in the media. It shouldn't be this way, but it is.

On the third point, which I won't quote in full, LVG brought in Martial and Memphis, who do have quality, but Memphis has gotten off to a less than ideal start and Martial has been brilliant though he has cooled off a bit. We could no have expected either to be playing at peak form consistently. We either have to be committed to developing young players or not. I'm not prepared to write off Martial and Memphis as flops yet.

The real problem, which I think we agree on, is LVG's refusal to bench Rooney for at least 2-3 games. Perhaps he's shot for good or perhaps he just needs a kick in the ass. I think it's the former, but at least bench him for a few games and then bring him to see if he gets the message. But LVG refuses to do even that.

 

[RedRover]

Responding to the first point:

Di Maria was, and is a quality player. Correctly handled and with a bit more luck there's no doubt he could have been a success here. Van Gaal is not responsible for Di Maria no settling in this country, or his lack of desire when things got tough - but I maintain that not giving him a run in a particular position to allow him to settle and get his form did not help.

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that Di Maria joined us last season, but it's obvious now that he never wanted to come to OT and that he was desperate to leave. Di Maria's desire to leave United had nothing to do with being played out of position for 1 or 2 matches.

Re the second point:

At the end of the day we can debate this forever. The fact is he is sticking with Rooney even though his performances don't deserve it - that's clear double standards when you see what happens to others and there is no benefit to the team in doing that - especially since other, better performing players then get shunted into different positions. That, to me is a disgrace.

I completely agree. But then again, one can understand now why LVG has not dropped Rooney -- to the public outcry to build up to a point that he CAN drop him. Imagine the alternative...dropping the England and United captain prematurely. You and I agree that Rooney has had more than his fair share of chances but he still has defenders in the media. It shouldn't be this way, but it is.

On the third point, which I won't quote in full, LVG brought in Martial and Memphis, who do have quality, but Memphis has gotten off to a less than ideal start and Martial has been brilliant though he has cooled off a bit. We could no have expected either to be playing at peak form consistently. We either have to be committed to developing young players or not. I'm not prepared to write off Martial and Memphis as flops yet.

The real problem, which I think we agree on, is LVG's refusal to bench Rooney for at least 2-3 games. Perhaps he's shot for good or perhaps he just needs a kick in the ass. I think it's the former, but at least bench him for a few games and then bring him to see if he gets the message. But LVG refuses to do even that.

It's easy to blame Di Maria for the problems he had. To say he "never wanted tine here" is not based in fact. He seemed happy when he arrived and looked decent early on. The wheels started to fall off when we performed poorly and he was moved into different positions week after week in a system that changed week after week. That is not an ideal scenario for any player trying to adjust to a new country, league and club. He takes responsibility for his lack of effort and willingness not to work harder but it doesn't absolve the manager of blame.

As regards Rooney, if Van Gaal is scared of an "outcry" for dropping any player, he shouldn't be in charge of any club.

Responding to the first point:

Di Maria was, and is a quality player. Correctly handled and with a bit more luck there's no doubt he could have been a success here. Van Gaal is not responsible for Di Maria no settling in this country, or his lack of desire when things got tough - but I maintain that not giving him a run in a particular position to allow him to settle and get his form did not help.

I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that Di Maria joined us last season, but it's obvious now that he never wanted to come to OT and that he was desperate to leave. Di Maria's desire to leave United had nothing to do with being played out of position for 1 or 2 matches.

Re the second point:

At the end of the day we can debate this forever. The fact is he is sticking with Rooney even though his performances don't deserve it - that's clear double standards when you see what happens to others and there is no benefit to the team in doing that - especially since other, better performing players then get shunted into different positions. That, to me is a disgrace.

I completely agree. But then again, one can understand now why LVG has not dropped Rooney -- to the public outcry to build up to a point that he CAN drop him. Imagine the alternative...dropping the England and United captain prematurely. You and I agree that Rooney has had more than his fair share of chances but he still has defenders in the media. It shouldn't be this way, but it is.

On the third point, which I won't quote in full, LVG brought in Martial and Memphis, who do have quality, but Memphis has gotten off to a less than ideal start and Martial has been brilliant though he has cooled off a bit. We could no have expected either to be playing at peak form consistently. We either have to be committed to developing young players or not. I'm not prepared to write off Martial and Memphis as flops yet.

The real problem, which I think we agree on, is LVG's refusal to bench Rooney for at least 2-3 games. Perhaps he's shot for good or perhaps he just needs a kick in the ass. I think it's the former, but at least bench him for a few games and then bring him to see if he gets the message. But LVG refuses to do even that.

Saying Di Maria "never wanted to be here" is based in no facts at all. It's a convenient excuse to absolve the manager of blame not based in reality. He probably didn't want to leave Madrid but seemed fine when he arrived and did well early on. He can be blamed for not sticking it out and a lack of strength of character but being played in various positions, being asked to do various jobs in various systems week to week is not the way to help a player settle in a new country and new league - especially when expectation on him is high. He is a very good player but how many players can play 5 different positions and perform in each one equally? It's far too much to ask.

As for Rooney - if Van Gaal hasn't dropped him because he's scared of an outcry then he's spineless and shouldnt be the manager of any club, let alone here. That suggestion is again based on nothing more than speculation and frankly, based on what I've seen of Van Gaal it's not the reason here. Rooney has had ample chance - his continued selection over others reflects badly on on Van Gaal.

Bottom line for me - we lack quality - and Van Gaal seems to agree. But He's the one who had the chance to resolve that problem before it started and that's my point. He's let players go and simply not replaced them.

 

[Spock]

It's easy to blame Di Maria for the problems he had. To say he "never wanted tine here" is not based in fact. He seemed happy when he arrived and looked decent early on. The wheels started to fall off when we performed poorly and he was moved into different positions week after week in a system that changed week after week. That is not an ideal scenario for any player trying to adjust to a new country, league and club. He takes responsibility for his lack of effort and willingness not to work harder but it doesn't absolve the manager of blame.

As regards Rooney, if Van Gaal is scared of an "outcry" for dropping any player, he shouldn't be in charge of any club.


Saying Di Maria "never wanted to be here" is based in no facts at all. It's a convenient excuse to absolve the manager of blame not based in reality. He probably didn't want to leave Madrid but seemed fine when he arrived and did well early on. He can be blamed for not sticking it out and a lack of strength of character but being played in various positions, being asked to do various jobs in various systems week to week is not the way to help a player settle in a new country and new league - especially when expectation on him is high. He is a very good player but how many players can play 5 different positions and perform in each one equally? It's far too much to ask.

As for Rooney - if Van Gaal hasn't dropped him because he's scared of an outcry then he's spineless and shouldnt be the manager of any club, let alone here. That suggestion is again based on nothing more than speculation and frankly, based on what I've seen of Van Gaal it's not the reason here. Rooney has had ample chance - his continued selection over others reflects badly on on Van Gaal.

Bottom line for me - we lack quality - and Van Gaal seems to agree. But He's the one who had the chance to resolve that problem before it started and that's my point. He's let players go and simply not replaced them.

The robbery was clearly a massive factor in Di Maria's thinking on whether Manchester was the right place for him:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...news/di-maria-manchester-united-exit-10050862

I'm not trying to trash Di Maria. He has a right to like or like not like his surroundings. But it's clear from his own words he never really was happy nor settled in Manchester, England.

I only recall Di Maria being played in two positions -- winger and striker. And even if he was asked to play in 10 positions, when you're pulling down 250k/week you do it. I'm not the biggest fan of Wayne Rooney, but whatever else may be said of him it cannot be said that he was unwilling to play in different positions for the good of the club. When you get down to the bottom of it, Di Maria clearly never wanted to come to Manchester and clearly wanted to leave as soon as he got here. Right or wrong, it was his choice.

The most serious point you make is this one:

if Van Gaal hasn't dropped him because he's scared of an outcry then he's spineless and shouldnt be the manager of any club, let alone here.

Not so. The job of managing a club like United is unlike almost any other job on the planet...only Real and Barcelona are comparable. Jose can do as he pleases as Chelsea because he's Jose. Arsene does as he wishes and despite not lifting a league trophy for 10 years now nor ever lifting a CL trophy he's got the job for as long as he wishes.

Managing United isn't simply about picking the right players in the transfer market, designing tactics and picking the right XI. It's about all that but so much more. He manages worldwide expectations and, at least ideally, sets in motion a path toward triumph, glory and commercial success.

Each of us should ask ourselves at what point would we have dropped Rooney..early September, Late October or late November? Because Rooney has been, quite truthfully, in poor form most of the last 12 months. Based on what I have witnessed, admittedly without the full benefit of seeing him in training and knowing what else has been going on his life, I would have dropped Rooney in mid-November. Enough was enough. Surely none of us would have dropped him in early September and probably not even late October. We had all noticed a massive decline in form but we've been patient. Well, here we are in early December and for me, enough is now enough. But we also have a bit of an injury crisis with Herrera out and Memphis playing very badly himself, so dropping Rooney isn't the no-brainer that it might otherwise be. In addition to the 21 year old Memphis, we're also nurturing the 19 year old Martial and a 21 year old Lingard. That's a lot of youth to nurture, if we were to fully drop Rooney.

In the end, Van Gaal has to manage expectations by the club's worldwide fan base and dropping a United and England legend after 4 or 5 games was never realistic. Louis has to see what we see, that Rooney is shot, but until the media and fan outcry to drop Rooney reaches a certain level he knows it would be political, if you will, suicide for him to actually drop Rooney. The world has to see Rooney look like crap over and over and over again before it is safe to drop him.

It shouldn't be this way, but it is. This isn't Crystal Palace, whose manager can drop anyone he pleases and no one would give a shit. Every move the Manchester United manager makes is subject to incredible scrutiny by fans and the media on every continent on earth. That's a heavy burden for the United manager to carry, which is why the job should never be entrusted to someone like Moyes.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Re: The Rooney point.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong here. We don't know why LVG persists with him to this degree, whether it's outside pressure or genuine satisfaction with Rooney's performances (combined with a lack of alternatives, one would think).

But this is something which has struck me before when this point has been raised: If Rooney is truly protected in some way by the United hierarchy, this is an absolutely bizarre state of affairs given how immensely - yes - unpopular he is among United fans. And his lack of popularity isn't a recent phenomenon either: His performances this season has made him even more unpopular, obviously, but for years now he has been shockingly unpopular for a supposed leading figure who has spent more than a decade with the club.

Just an aside, you might say - but I find his status with the fans very interesting. Compare him to, say, Stevie G: Now, there I could easily buy theories suggesting that the manager doesn't dare to drop him for fear of a backlash - but Rooney? What would actually happen? I don't mean right now, because his popularity seems to be declining in the media as well, but going back some months: LVG benches him, the media goes into meltdown? Ingerland fans are outraged? Whereas United's own fans are largely pleased? LVG attacked by the pundits for dropping Rooney - but gaining in popularity with the fans, who largely praise him for finally benching Rooney? Bizarre state of affairs, one could say.

 

[RedRover]

The robbery was clearly a massive factor in Di Maria's thinking on whether Manchester was the right place for him:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...news/di-maria-manchester-united-exit-10050862

I'm not trying to trash Di Maria. He has a right to like or like not like his surroundings. But it's clear from his own words he never really was happy nor settled in Manchester, England.

I only recall Di Maria being played in two positions -- winger and striker. And even if he was asked to play in 10 positions, when you're pulling down 250k/week you do it. I'm not the biggest fan of Wayne Rooney, but whatever else may be said of him it cannot be said that he was unwilling to play in different positions for the good of the club. When you get down to the bottom of it, Di Maria clearly never wanted to come to Manchester and clearly wanted to leave as soon as he got here. Right or wrong, it was his choice.

The most serious point you make is this one:

if Van Gaal hasn't dropped him because he's scared of an outcry then he's spineless and shouldnt be the manager of any club, let alone here.

Not so. The job of managing a club like United is unlike almost any other job on the planet...only Real and Barcelona are comparable. Jose can do as he pleases as Chelsea because he's Jose. Arsene does as he wishes and despite not lifting a league trophy for 10 years now nor ever lifting a CL trophy he's got the job for as long as he wishes.

Managing United isn't simply about picking the right players in the transfer market, designing tactics and picking the right XI. It's about all that but so much more. He manages worldwide expectations and, at least ideally, sets in motion a path toward triumph, glory and commercial success.

Each of us should ask ourselves at what point would we have dropped Rooney..early September, Late October or late November? Because Rooney has been, quite truthfully, in poor form most of the last 12 months. Based on what I have witnessed, admittedly without the full benefit of seeing him in training and knowing what else has been going on his life, I would have dropped Rooney in mid-November. Enough was enough. Surely none of us would have dropped him in early September and probably not even late October. We had all noticed a massive decline in form but we've been patient. Well, here we are in early December and for me, enough is now enough. But we also have a bit of an injury crisis with Herrera out and Memphis playing very badly himself, so dropping Rooney isn't the no-brainer that it might otherwise be. In addition to the 21 year old Memphis, we're also nurturing the 19 year old Martial and a 21 year old Lingard. That's a lot of youth to nurture, if we were to fully drop Rooney.

In the end, Van Gaal has to manage expectations by the club's worldwide fan base and dropping a United and England legend after 4 or 5 games was never realistic. Louis has to see what we see, that Rooney is shot, but until the media and fan outcry to drop Rooney reaches a certain level he knows it would be political, if you will, suicide for him to actually drop Rooney. The world has to see Rooney look like crap over and over and over again before it is safe to drop him.

It shouldn't be this way, but it is. This isn't Crystal Palace, whose manager can drop anyone he pleases and no one would give a shit. Every move the Manchester United manager makes is subject to incredible scrutiny by fans and the media on every continent on earth. That's a heavy burden for the United manager to carry, which is why the job should never be entrusted to someone like Moyes.

I totally disagree with the Rooney point. No player should be protected, however you cut it up and a manager who doesn't drop a player who persistently under performs undermines his own position in the minds of fans and most importantly the other players. The manager must do, overall what's best for the team and as it stands, Wayne Rooney has performed so poorly this season he doesn't deserve a place. Protecting him reflects badly on Van Gaal.

Your whole argument on this and the other points is starting with the position that you want to like Van Gaal, then twisting fact, circumstance and speculation to support that.

The bottom line here is whatever positives Van Gaal should be given credit for, there are significant negatives as well and he should not be immune to criticism for them.

 

[RedRover]

Re: The Rooney point.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong here. We don't know why LVG persists with him to this degree, whether it's outside pressure or genuine satisfaction with Rooney's performances (combined with a lack of alternatives, one would think).

But this is something which has struck me before when this point has been raised: If Rooney is truly protected in some way by the United hierarchy, this is an absolutely bizarre state of affairs given how immensely - yes - unpopular he is among United fans. And his lack of popularity isn't a recent phenomenon either: His performances this season has made him even more unpopular, obviously, but for years now he has been shockingly unpopular for a supposed leading figure who has spent more than a decade with the club.

Just an aside, you might say - but I find his status with the fans very interesting. Compare him to, say, Stevie G: Now, there I could easily buy theories suggesting that the manager doesn't dare to drop him for fear of a backlash - but Rooney? What would actually happen? I don't mean right now, because his popularity seems to be declining in the media as well, but going back some months: LVG benches him, the media goes into meltdown? Ingerland fans are outraged? Whereas United's own fans are largely pleased? LVG attacked by the pundits for dropping Rooney - but gaining in popularity with the fans, who largely praise him for finally benching Rooney? Bizarre state of affairs, one could say.

That's the issue here. The continued decision to pick him and to shunt better performing players into other positions simply doesn't stand up to any sensible scrutiny. If he's benched, there will be no backlash because it would be a reasonable thing to do in the circumstances.

And he's not popular with most England fans I know either. They think Roy protects him as well and that we should be going with young players.

All that being said - the reaction of third parties should be, in the managers mind, a secondary thought. Fergie always said nobody is bigger than the club and that's exactly how it should be. To favour one player over others to this extent is indefensible in my book.

 

[Spock]

I totally disagree with the Rooney point. No player should be protected, however you cut it up and a manager who doesn't drop a player who persistently under performs undermines his own position in the minds of fans and most importantly the other players. The manager must do, overall what's best for the team and as it stands, Wayne Rooney has performed so poorly this season he doesn't deserve a place. Protecting him reflects badly on Van Gaal.

Your whole argument on this and the other points is starting with the position that you want to like Van Gaal, then twisting fact, circumstance and speculation to support that.

The bottom line here is whatever positives Van Gaal should be given credit for, there are significant negatives as well and he should not be immune to criticism for them.

I neither like nor dislike Van Gaal. I would prefer an open, attacking game than what LVG offers us but at the same I can't deny the plain facts that he has dramatically improved our position in the league. Sure, he's spent gobs to do it but the results are the results.

As for managing a club legend, you just can't treat a club legend the way you would, say, a drifter like Anderson or Cleverley. True, Jose has dropped John Terry but Terry is four years older than Rooney. Rooney is not only United captain but England captain. Rooney sits in a completely different place than Terry as an icon of English football.

Fortunately, Louis has dropped Rooney for this weekend's match and against Wolfsburg and there's no doubt on my mind that it is a dropping and not the alleged ankle injury. Rooney has turned up with mystery "injuries" twice this season, at times right after rampant criticism of Rooney's form. His stays off the pitch were too brief IMHO and this time LVG has decided on a lengthier spell in civilian clothing. At this point I'd go with a month long benching rather than just 7-10 days but given that we're short on bodies right now I can see why LVG has decided to go with a shorter sabbatical for his captain.

We all have our criticisms of LVG and I have mine (the relentlessly unambitious tactics, his dismissal of Rafael after ONE mistake, his hesitancy toward Herrera, his refusal to play Pereira, etc.), but it's not as easy as you make it sound to drop Rooney indefinitely.

 

[RedRover]

I neither like nor dislike Van Gaal. I would prefer an open, attacking game than what LVG offers us but at the same I can't deny the plain facts that he has dramatically improved our position in the league. Sure, he's spent gobs to do it but the results are the results.

As for managing a club legend, you just can't treat a club legend the way you would, say, a drifter like Anderson or Cleverley. True, Jose has dropped John Terry but Terry is four years older than Rooney. Rooney is not only United captain but England captain. Rooney sits in a completely different place than Terry as an icon of English football.

Fortunately, Louis has dropped Rooney for this weekend's match and against Wolfsburg and there's no doubt on my mind that it is a dropping and not the alleged ankle injury. Rooney has turned up with mystery "injuries" twice this season, at times right after rampant criticism of Rooney's form. His stays off the pitch were too brief IMHO and this time LVG has decided on a lengthier spell in civilian clothing. At this point I'd go with a month long benching rather than just 7-10 days but given that we're short on bodies right now I can see why LVG has decided to go with a shorter sabbatical for his captain.

We all have our criticisms of LVG and I have mine (the relentlessly unambitious tactics, his dismissal of Rafael after ONE mistake, his hesitancy toward Herrera, his refusal to play Pereira, etc.), but it's not as easy as you make it sound to drop Rooney indefinitely.

Wayne Rooney has had plenty of chance to get through a bad patch of form. It's clear to anyone watching him he's not the player he was - and when playing the team suffers as a result.

Nobody is suggesting he be dropped "indefinitely" - no player should be a that's exactly my point, players should be picked on form. Wayne Rooney should get the same chance as any other player to win a first team shirt - no more and no less.

Di Maria got sent off, he lost his place and never fit it back. Van Gaal had no issue there. The Rooney situation shouldn't be any different.

 

[Spock]

Wayne Rooney has had plenty of chance to get through a bad patch of form. It's clear to anyone watching him he's not the player he was - and when playing the team suffers as a result.

Nobody is suggesting he be dropped "indefinitely" - no player should be a that's exactly my point, players should be picked on form. Wayne Rooney should get the same chance as any other player to win a first team shirt - no more and no less.

Di Maria got sent off, he lost his place and never fit it back. Van Gaal had no issue there. The Rooney situation shouldn't be any different.

I completely agree that Rooney is no longer the player he once was. At the time I had hoped that we'd take Chelsea's 30m and be done with him. But I'm not going to let my loathing of Rooney and his hostage play stand in the way of reason.

Di Maria had already gone to the dogs before got sent off, although it's true he was having a good game before he got himself sent off. But you can't really compare the situations between Rooney and Di Maria any more than you could Rooney and Cleverley or any other player on the squad.

 

[RedRover]

I completely agree that Rooney is no longer the player he once was. At the time I had hoped that we'd take Chelsea's 30m and be done with him. But I'm not going to let my loathing of Rooney and his hostage play stand in the way of reason.

Di Maria had already gone to the dogs before got sent off, although it's true he was having a good game before he got himself sent off. But you can't really compare the situations between Rooney and Di Maria any more than you could Rooney and Cleverley or any other player on the squad.

To be clear, I don't dislike the bloke - he's trying hard, and that's what makes it desperate. It's not as if he's not putting the effort in.

And you miss my point regarding Di Maria. He was benched because he couldn't get back in the side on form and quite rightly. The manager picked his best side despite the fact that one of the players being left out was on big money and was a big name. That's what he should be doing now.

 

[Spock]

To be clear, I don't dislike the bloke - he's trying hard, and that's what makes it desperate. It's not as if he's not putting the effort in.

And you miss my point regarding Di Maria. He was benched because he couldn't get back in the side on form and quite rightly. The manager picked his best side despite the fact that one of the players being left out was on big money and was a big name. That's what he should be doing now.

Right, but the status of a player simply does matter. Di Maria was new to the club, he clearly never wanted to come to United in the first place and after a strong start was woeful consistently for about 3-4 months before he was finally dropped for good.

Rooney, on the other hand, is a United legend. Club captain, England captain. International icon. United's best known player, by far. He has this "ambassador clause" in his contract, at least allegedly. He's on the verge of breaking Sir Bobby's goal scoring record. He has has lifted multiple trophies, including a CL trophy, for United. None of that can be said about Di Maria, who was generally loathed and then quickly forgotten after he left the club.

Comparing Di Maria to Rooney is absurd. One wouldn't treat Di Maria as one would Rooney, as you appear to suggest.

Rooney SHOULD be dropped for a period of time -- which I believe began today (v West Ham) -- but he has rightly been given more leash than Di Maria.

 

[RedRover]

Right, but the status of a player simply does matter. Di Maria was new to the club, he clearly never wanted to come to United in the first place and after a strong start was woeful consistently for about 3-4 months before he was finally dropped for good.

Rooney, on the other hand, is a United legend. Club captain, England captain. International icon. United's best known player, by far. He has this "ambassador clause" in his contract, at least allegedly. He's on the verge of breaking Sir Bobby's goal scoring record. He has has lifted multiple trophies, including a CL trophy, for United. None of that can be said about Di Maria, who was generally loathed and then quickly forgotten after he left the club.

Comparing Di Maria to Rooney is absurd. One wouldn't treat Di Maria as one would Rooney, as you appear to suggest.

Rooney SHOULD be dropped for a period of time -- which I believe began today (v West Ham) -- but he has rightly been given more leash than Di Maria.

Look, we're never going to agree.

"Club legend" or not, he can no longer be treated with any favour, and in my opinion, he shouldn't have been for a long while.

It's simple for me. If Van Gaal expects players to respect him he needs to treat them fairly. Good players out of position or on the bench while another gets picked and doesn't perform will rightly piss those players off.

 

[steve zizou]

.

We get plenty of chances to pull ahead, the competition keeps dropping points, but we repeatedly stab ourselves in the foot with extremely cautious and monotone football instead of taking advantage of the failings of teams around us

The same competition taking points from our title rivals are the one taking points off us. It's not like we're facing different set of teams.

"philosophy disciples"! What's next?

Philosophy Sympathisers sounds more current.

 

[TwoSheds]

What's an ass clown then?

 

[Tyrion]

That article does actually raise a good point. People, not so much on here but in the media (*cough* Scholes *cough*), keep describing United under SAF as always playing brilliant football; typically using words normally reserved for pirates like buccaneering and swashbuckling. United rarely played the best football around (e.g. Arsenal, Keegan's Newcastle etc.) and endured bad spells but won so much because they were motivated, confident and organised. They normally took the game to the opposition but were never the exhibition team the media thinks they were.

This side is very boring and that is a huge problem but we shouldn't make the mistake of judging LVG against the standards of a United that never was.