Skripal Novichok Case

[Pexbo]

I don't have to spin anything and these photos prove nothing as far as the actual poisoning goes. We still don't know who these people are, who they work for and whether they actually did what they're being accused of.

Beyond any doubt? Nope.
Beyond reasonable doubt? For sure and considering you don't have to spin anything... that's some nice spin.

And if these two are in fact GRU operatives traveling to the UK with fake passports, then some questions should be asked of whoever is in charge of security in this country of yours.

Considering they're GRU operatives, "fake passports" isn't exactly a talking point. The passports they had will have been government issued and real by all intents and purposes.

walking around poisoning people on the British soil

If I boarded a plane to Moscow and then stabbed a Russian citizen in the neck in a park would you criticise the Russian intelligence system for not picking it up before it happened?

As for getting that poison into the country, it's Russian security that let it on to the plane and there is hardly a lot you can do to detect a trace amount of a chemical, especially if it had been professionally concealed.

In any case, at least it's some sort of development. I was getting bored.

 

[MoskvaRed]

A devastating riposte. They are suspects as things stand. That is the only fact

And, legally speaking, suspects they will remain for obvious reasons. But we on a forum are entitled to infer that, on the balance of probabilities, they were involved in the poisoning. Either you don’t believe they are GRU operatives (if so, then you need to consider why the UK government would risk exposing itself to ridicule over this issue, which the Kremlin would then exploit to detonate the credibility of the entire Skirlal story) or you see it as entirely coincidental that these two happened to be in Salisbury that day.

 

[Raoul]

Yes, they were two innocent tourists en route to Stonehenge...There will never be a trial, as you well know.

 

[Abizzz]

A devastating riposte. They are suspects as things stand. That is the only fact

I'll apologies when they go back to the UK to face a trial and their names are cleared.

 

[Adisa]

I don't have to spin anything and these photos prove nothing as far as the actual poisoning goes. We still don't know who these people are, who they work for and whether they actually did what they're being accused of. And if these two are in fact GRU operatives traveling to the UK with fake passports,walking around poisoning people on the British soil, then some questions should be asked of whoever is in charge of security in this country of yours.

In any case, at least it's some sort of development. I was getting bored.

This can't be right. Surely it's Russia that need to answer questions?

 

[Carolina Red]

I don't have to spin anything and these photos prove nothing as far as the actual poisoning goes. We still don't know who these people are, who they work for and whether they actually did what they're being accused of. And if these two are in fact GRU operatives traveling to the UK with fake passports,walking around poisoning people on the British soil, then some questions should be asked of whoever is in charge of security in this country of yours.

In any case, at least it's some sort of development. I was getting bored.

Tagline checks out.

 

[Red Defence]

A devastating riposte. They are suspects as things stand. That is the only fact

Yes, suspects. I’m sure if they’re innocent they’ll be more than happy to explain their movements to the authorities.

 

[Steven Seagull]

As would all spies I imagine

 

[Red Defence]

They are suspects as things stand. That is the only fact

As would all spies I imagine

Spies now are they...hmm.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Spies now are they...hmm.

Who knows? Do you live in a fairytale?

 

[Red Defence]

Who knows? Do you live in a fairytale?

Your statement not mine.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Ok

 

[VeevaVee]

Isn't that there were trace amounts of Novichok in the hotel room they were in fairly damning?

I think it's damning enough to suggest they might've done it on a forum anyway.

Unless it's a more popular perfume than I realise.

 

[antihenry]

This can't be right. Surely it's Russia that need to answer questions?

Russia needs to answer questions if it's presented with evidence and asked to cooperate in the investigation right from the start. British authorities were doing the complete opposite from day one so no-one owes them anything. If you accuse someone of a wrongdoing, the burden of proof is on you, not the accused.

 

[antihenry]

Beyond any doubt? Nope.
Beyond reasonable doubt? For sure and considering you don't have to spin anything... that's some nice spin.



Considering they're GRU operatives, "fake passports" isn't exactly a talking point. The passports they had will have been government issued and real by all intents and purposes.



If I boarded a plane to Moscow and then stabbed a Russian citizen in the neck in a park would you criticise the Russian intelligence system for not picking it up before it happened?

As for getting that poison into the country, it's Russian security that let it on to the plane and there is hardly a lot you can do to detect a trace amount of a chemical, especially if it had been professionally concealed.

If you were a trained intelligence operative, whose mission is to kill someone in Moscow I seriously doubt you'd be carrying highly toxic nerve agent on a plane to your destination, let alone use it down there, knowing full well it'll be discovered and traced back to your country of origin. There are literally dozens of ways of killing people, so why go for all that trouble, knowing about the severe and long term political consequences, even if the assassination attempt suceeds? Especially given that the intended target has already been debriefed, jailed and swapped many years ago and presents no danger to your country's national interests? You think Russian intelligence aren't aware of cctv cameras or that they're so inept at killing people that they need to make such a mess of it, so the whole world knows about it? Really? If they were so obsessed with killing Skripal, why not hire someone local and make it look like a robbery gone bad or something? Why start chemical warfare in the middle of England and do it so badly that they can't actually kill anyone and leave all kinds of incrminating stuff behind? After Litvinenko scandal that's the last thing they'd be doing. None of that makes any sense, if you leave out your bias and start thinking logically.

 

[Mb194dc]

If you were a trained intelligence operative, whose mission is to kill someone in Moscow I seriously doubt you'd be carrying highly toxic nerve agent on a plane to your destination, let alone use it down there, knowing full well it'll be discovered and traced back to your country of origin. There are literally dozens of ways of killing people, so why go for all that trouble, knowing about the severe and long term political consequences, even if the assassination attempt suceeds? Especially given that the intended target has already been debriefed, jailed and swapped many years ago and presents no danger to your country's national interests? You think Russian intelligence aren't aware of cctv cameras or that they're so inept at killing people that they need to make such a mess of it, so the whole world knows about it? Really? If they were so obsessed with killing Skripal, why not hire someone local and make it look like a robbery gone bad or something? Why start chemical warfare in the middle of England and do it so badly that they can't actually kill anyone and leave all kinds of incrminating stuff behind? After Litvinenko scandal that's the last thing they'd be doing. None of that makes any sense, if you leave out your bias and start thinking logically.

This..

Can't see how any intelligent person could actually believe the line the government is parroting. It's either a deliberate distraction from Brexit or a cover for a theft / inside job / breach at Porton Down.

On a side note, this is the worst Tory government since the war. Absolutly awful in everything they try and do. Said as a member of the party... Corbyn is a shoe in next time.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

If you were a trained intelligence operative, whose mission is to kill someone in Moscow I seriously doubt you'd be carrying highly toxic nerve agent on a plane to your destination, let alone use it down there, knowing full well it'll be discovered and traced back to your country of origin. There are literally dozens of ways of killing people, so why go for all that trouble, knowing about the severe and long term political consequences, even if the assassination attempt suceeds? Especially given that the intended target has already been debriefed, jailed and swapped many years ago and presents no danger to your country's national interests? You think Russian intelligence aren't aware of cctv cameras or that they're so inept at killing people that they need to make such a mess of it, so the whole world knows about it? Really? If they were so obsessed with killing Skripal, why not hire someone local and make it look like a robbery gone bad or something? Why start chemical warfare in the middle of England and do it so badly that they can't actually kill anyone and leave all kinds of incrminating stuff behind? After Litvinenko scandal that's the last thing they'd be doing. None of that makes any sense, if you leave out your bias and start thinking logically.

Agreed. It's bizarre. The only conclusion I can come to is either a) it's a stitch up or b) Russia wanted the UK to know it was them for whatever reason.

 

[2cents]

You think Russian intelligence aren't aware of cctv cameras or that they're so inept at killing people that they need to make such a mess of it, so the whole world knows about it?

The Mossad have a reputation (a bit undeserved from what I've read) as a kind of elite intelligence squad, seemlessly operating around the world without leaving a footprint. You should google their attempted assassination of Khalid Mash'al in Amman 1997 when the dumb Mossad operatives were actually caught by Jordanian security shortly after poisoning Mash'al via his ear. Or have a look at the successful assassination of Mahmud al-Mabhuh in Dubai in 2010, where a couple of dozen operatives left a trail of evidence including CCTV footage and obviously faked passports behind. These intelligence agencies probably don't always operate like smooth, James Bond types.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Agreed. It's bizarre. The only conclusion I can come to is either a) it's a stitch up or b) Russia wanted the UK to know it was them for whatever reason.

I think that reason is pretty clear, no?

 

[antihenry]

The Mossad have a reputation (a bit undeserved from what I've read) as a kind of elite intelligence squad, seemlessly operating around the world without leaving a footprint. You should google their attempted assassination of Khalid Mash'al in Amman 1997 when the dumb Mossad operatives were actually caught by Jordanian security shortly after poisoning Mash'al via his ear. Or have a look at the successful assassination of Mahmud al-Mabhuh in Dubai in 2010, where a couple of dozen operatives left a trail of evidence including CCTV footage and obviously faked passports behind. These intelligence agencies probably don't always operate like smooth, James Bond types.

Well, Mossad has done plenty of things outside of Israel that they wouldn't be able to get away with if it wasn't for an unprecedented backing the country's been getting from the US. And again, those two mentioned targets were considered enemies of the Israeli state and responsible for terrorist attacks against it. Skripal was a nobody, living out in the open. He posed no threat or danger to his former country. It just doesn't add up.

But I get the point about the Bond comparisons. I doesn't always go smooth in real life, but this Skripals case just has too many holes for me to believe the official sources from either side.

 

[Green_Red]

Isn't that there were trace amounts of Novichok in the hotel room they were in fairly damning?

I think it's damning enough to suggest they might've done it on a forum anyway.

Unless it's a more popular perfume than I realise.

Im only reading that for the first time. Its surprising, given how potent we've been led to believe Novichok is, that they survived any leak of Novichok in their hotel room. As surprising as the fact that so too did any cleaners of that room or subsequent occupants. Or is "trace amounts" only sufficient to make the allegation and not enough to actually poison anyone?

The release of their pictures is amazing though. Am I right that they have yet to be apprehended?

 

[antihenry]

I think that reason is pretty clear, no?

Enlighten me.

 

[VeevaVee]

Im only reading that for the first time. Its surprising, given how potent we've been led to believe Novichok is, that they survived any leak of Novichok in their hotel room. As surprising as the fact that so too did any cleaners of that room or subsequent occupants. Or is "trace amounts" only sufficient to make the allegation and not enough to actually poison anyone?

The release of their pictures is amazing though. Am I right that they have yet to be apprehended?

That was my first thought to be fair. I thought any amount would feck you up.
I won't be staying at that hotel anyway.

I'm assuming they've released the pictures as a statement to show they've not let it slide, but knowing there's next to zero chance of them ever being caught.

Or the whole thing is even more dodgy.
All very strange.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

I think that reason is pretty clear, no?

Not to me no. Assume some kind of show of power and a warning to other 'traitors' that it doesn't matter where you go, we'll get you?

 

[antihenry]

Apparently Liz was eyeballing those bastards right from the royal balcony. That's what unnerved them and made them fail their mission. Didn't know who they fecked with.

 

[TheReligion]

I don't have to spin anything and these photos prove nothing as far as the actual poisoning goes. We still don't know who these people are, who they work for and whether they actually did what they're being accused of. And if these two are in fact GRU operatives traveling to the UK with fake passports,walking around poisoning people on the British soil, then some questions should be asked of whoever is in charge of security in this country of yours.

In any case, at least it's some sort of development. I was getting bored.

Fair play to everyone involved for deciding these guys are guilty without trial. Goodbye British legal system

Russia needs to answer questions if it's presented with evidence and asked to cooperate in the investigation right from the start. British authorities were doing the complete opposite from day one so no-one owes them anything. If you accuse someone of a wrongdoing, the burden of proof is on you, not the accused.

Well I laughed.

 

[2cents]

Skripal was a nobody, living out in the open. He posed no threat or danger to his former country

How do you know this though? None of us has any idea what he might have been up to recently, who he might have met, what he might know, etc. You're just assuming that he became completely irrelevant after his release and move to the U.K.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

How do you know this though?

Shhhhhh, he's on the payroll.

 

[Red Defence]

If you were a trained intelligence operative, whose mission is to kill someone in Moscow I seriously doubt you'd be carrying highly toxic nerve agent on a plane to your destination, let alone use it down there, knowing full well it'll be discovered and traced back to your country of origin. There are literally dozens of ways of killing people, so why go for all that trouble, knowing about the severe and long term political consequences, even if the assassination attempt suceeds? Especially given that the intended target has already been debriefed, jailed and swapped many years ago and presents no danger to your country's national interests? You think Russian intelligence aren't aware of cctv cameras or that they're so inept at killing people that they need to make such a mess of it, so the whole world knows about it? Really? If they were so obsessed with killing Skripal, why not hire someone local and make it look like a robbery gone bad or something? Why start chemical warfare in the middle of England and do it so badly that they can't actually kill anyone and leave all kinds of incrminating stuff behind? After Litvinenko scandal that's the last thing they'd be doing. None of that makes any sense, if you leave out your bias and start thinking logically.

What makes you think they carried the nerve agent themselves? Someone else could have brought it in or it could have arrived in a diplomatic bag.

What makes you think the target presents no danger to Russia’s national interests?

As for logic, going by the fiasco that was the Litvinenko murder, it would surely be expecting too much to assume GRU operatives even understand what the word means, never mind be able apply it to what should have been a relatively easy murder.

 

[JulesWinnfield]

Never has the term "useful idiot" been so applicable. People actually lining up to defend Russia on an attack they carried out precisely to send a message. Christ.

This..

Can't see how any intelligent person could actually believe the line the government is parroting. It's either a deliberate distraction from Brexit or a cover for a theft / inside job / breach at Porton Down.

On a side note, this is the worst Tory government since the war. Absolutly awful in everything they try and do. Said as a member of the party... Corbyn is a shoe in next time.

Intelligent? So you think one of the following 3 things is more likely than Russia trying to bump off a traitor and send a message whilst doing so.

1) The government unfathomably thinks poisoning someone on UK soil will distract from Brexit as some sort of long term solution (note: it didn't and it won't). Quite why your distraction would be a chemical weapons attack where you show you are powerless to respond to it would be a positive distraction in the first place is beyond me.

2) Inside job - yes, because it sends a great message to anyone else MI6 might want to defect or get on their pay roll to have an asset very publically murdered in that manor...

3) It was a theft and by sheer coincidence they used it on a Russian who started working for MI6 and has since been covered up to look exactly like Russia did it for some reason.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Never has the term "useful idiot" been so applicable. People actually lining up to defend Russia on an attack they carried out precisely to send a message. Christ.



Intelligent? So you think one of the following 3 things is more likely than Russia trying to bump off a traitor and send a message whilst doing so.

1) The government unfathomably thinks poisoning someone on UK soil will distract from Brexit as some sort of long term solution (note: it didn't and it won't). Quite why your distraction would be a chemical weapons attack where you show you are powerless to respond to it would be a positive distraction in the first place is beyond me.

2) Inside job - yes, because it sends a great message to anyone else MI6 might want to defect or get on their pay roll to have an asset very publically murdered in that manor...

3) It was a theft and by sheer coincidence they used it on a Russian who started working for MI6 and has since been covered up to look exactly like Russia did it for some reason.

Good post. I don’t mind our resident Russian poster fighting their corner but I will never understand Westerners doing so. There are admittedly some aspects to this case that are still not clear but the Putin regime has long lost any right to the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Mb194dc]

Good post. I don’t mind our resident Russian poster fighting their corner but I will never understand Westerners doing so. There are admittedly some aspects to this case that are still not clear but the Putin regime has long lost any right to the benefit of the doubt.

You think they May "regime" is open and transparent. Theresa May appears to have been lying through her teeth since coming to office. Please watch PMQs yesterday for a good laugh. Not that Russia are necessarily innocent. Common sense indicates this wasn't the Russians for the reasons above. More likely it is either to distract from the shambles that are the Brexit "negotiations" and everything else going against the Gov. Or it's a cover up over a potential theft / leak / inside job to remove and possibly sell chemical / bio weapons from Porton Down. That is the most simple and likely explanation. Probably caused by the Government cutting the defense budget to the bone resulting in lapses in security protocols...

It's also possible the attacks on Russia are a subtext, because May and others blame Russia for the Brexit leave vote and see blaming them for this as a way to counter attack covertly.

The UK government appears to be shoveling some rather blatant propaganda down the throats of the population. It would seem since the Trump election debacle a lot of people have completely lost their minds on Russia. Seemingly willing to believe they're responsible for pretty much anything. No matter how little sense it makes.The UK media have become just as bad as RT with their absurdly biased and unquestioning coverage of the government line on this and quite a few other issues as well.

 

[Red Defence]

Just listening to the Russian representative to the UN live.....his rhetoric is nothing short of embarrassing. They really should replace him.

 

[Red Defence]

You think they May "regime" is open and transparent. Theresa May appears to have been lying through her teeth since coming to office. Please watch PMQs yesterday for a good laugh. Not that Russia are necessarily innocent. Common sense indicates this wasn't the Russians for the reasons above. More likely it is either to distract from the shambles that are the Brexit "negotiations" and everything else going against the Gov. Or it's a cover up over a potential theft / leak / inside job to remove and possibly sell chemical / bio weapons from Porton Down. That is the most simple and likely explanation. Probably caused by the Government cutting the defense budget to the bone resulting in lapses in security protocols...

It's also possible the attacks on Russia are a subtext, because May and others blame Russia for the Brexit leave vote and see blaming them for this as a way to counter attack covertly.

The UK government appears to be shoveling some rather blatant propaganda down the throats of the population. It would seem since the Trump election debacle a lot of people have completely lost their minds on Russia. Seemingly willing to believe they're responsible for pretty much anything. No matter how little sense it makes.The UK media have become just as bad as RT with their absurdly biased and unquestioning coverage of the government line on this and quite a few other issues as well.

Dear me!

 

[antihenry]

Intelligent? So you think one of the following 3 things is more likely than Russia trying to bump off a traitor and send a message whilst doing so.

You do know he was arrested years ago and did time back in Russia before he was swapped in 2010? If Russians were so hell bent on murdering him they could have easily done it back then.

 

[JulesWinnfield]

You do know he was arrested years ago and did time back in Russia before he was swapped in 2010? If Russians were so hell bent on murdering him they could have easily done it back then.

He was freed in a spy swap, not as some good will gesture. They got their use out of him, 10 spies back. This is very much Russia's "feck you", we'll get you whatever.

I don't think the timing is coincidental either, acting now they've got their own man in the presidency (who according to the NYT op ed was really trying to play down any sanctions against them for some reason...) and Britain has began isolating itself from its allies.

 

[antihenry]

He was freed in a spy swap, not as some good will gesture. This is very much Russia's "feck you", we'll get you whatever.

I don't think the timing is coincidental either, acting now they've got their own man in the presidency (who according to the NYT op ed was really trying to play down any sanctions against them for some reason...) and Britain has began isolating itself from its allies.

If Skripal posed any danger to national security he wouldn't have been released, swap or no swap. Russians had no use for him anymore, that's how he ended up in Britain.

 

[JulesWinnfield]

If Skripal posed any danger to national security he wouldn't have been released, swap or no swap. Russians had no use for him anymore, that's how he ended up in Britain.

You don't have to pose danger to piss off Putin. By all accounts Skripal was still involved in the game, who knows what goes on behind closed doors?

 

[Mb194dc]

He was freed in a spy swap, not as some good will gesture. They got their use out of him, 10 spies back. This is very much Russia's "feck you", we'll get you whatever.

I don't think the timing is coincidental either, acting now they've got their own man in the presidency (who according to the NYT op ed was really trying to play down any sanctions against them for some reason...) and Britain has began isolating itself from its allies.

This is exactly what I meant before...

If they really wanted to eliminate Skripal I have no doubt they could have done. Just look what happened to Jill Dando, and that was in a London street in broad daylight to a high profile TV presenter. Almost certainly a state sponsored hit (Serbia probably).. The Met fitted the local oddball Barry George up for that, although he did get released after spending 6 years inside, despite being obviously innocent..

They definitely wouldn't use a nerve agent that could only be discovered and with absolute certainty would lead to diplomatic issues and sanctions. What are the benefits to Russia of doing that?

 

[antihenry]

You don't have to pose danger to piss off Putin. By all accounts Skripal was still involved in the game, who knows what goes on behind closed doors? They killed Litvinenko in a manor he would stay alive and be able to spill any last information he had. He was most certainly pissing off Putin though who decided to send a message then as well. Though i'm guessing you also think that wasn't Russia.

Well, I wouldn't know. I'm not part of Putin's inner circle so I wouldn't presume to know what he thinks. You, on the other hand, seemed to have an intimate knowledge as to how he operates.