Skripal Novichok Case

JulesWinnfield

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This is exactly what I meant before...

If they really wanted to eliminate Skripal I have no doubt they could have done. Just look what happened to Jill Dando, and that was in a London street in broad daylight to a high profile TV presenter. Almost certainly a state sponsored hit (Serbia probably).. The Met fitted the local oddball Barry George up for that, although he did get released after spending 6 years inside, despite being obviously innocent..

They definitely wouldn't use a nerve agent that could only be discovered and with absolute certainty would lead to diplomatic issues and sanctions. What are the benefits to Russia of doing that?
The whole point is to be an obvious hit. It's a warning message that yes, we're Russia, yes we can do what we want, no you can't stop us. It's a display of power. The diplomatic sanctions are all softball, the UK can't hit Russia with meaningful sanctions, none of Europe will because they're dependent on Russian gas, all that happens is some diplomats get expelled for a bit before quietly returning. It's not meaningful sanctioning. Anything that could be done with meaningful sanctioning already has happened what with them invading Ukraine and then shooting down a civilian plane.

The whole incidents mirrors Litvinenko. But as with the other guy I assume you probably think that wasn't Russia either. In that case they did the exact same, a big, unsubtle way to kill someone that guarantees headlines. Barely even trying to conceal the tracks.

There's no balance to be had here, however bad you think the UK is, Russia and its quasi-dictator are leagues worse in terms of transparency, in terms of behaviour, there's a reason Russia is a pariah state and for all you can moan, the UK certainly isn't. Russia is a mafia state. This is the kind of shit they do.
 
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nickm

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This is exactly what I meant before...

If they really wanted to eliminate Skripal I have no doubt they could have done. Just look what happened to Jill Dando, and that was in a London street in broad daylight to a high profile TV presenter. Almost certainly a state sponsored hit (Serbia probably).. The Met fitted the local oddball Barry George up for that, although he did get released after spending 6 years inside, despite being obviously innocent..

They definitely wouldn't use a nerve agent that could only be discovered and with absolute certainty would lead to diplomatic issues and sanctions. What are the benefits to Russia of doing that?
How about you focus on the facts? An assassination attempt was made using a Russian nerve agent by two russian agents. People have died as a result. Clear as day. No need to speculate.
 

Mb194dc

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The whole point is to be an obvious hit. It's a warning message that yes, we're Russia, yes we can do what we want, no you can't stop us. It's a display of power. The diplomatic sanctions are all softball, the UK can't hit Russia with meaningful sanctions, none of Europe will because they're dependent on Russian gas, all that happens is some diplomats get expelled for a bit before quietly returning. It's not meaningful sanctioning.

Just like with Litvinenko. But as with the other guy I assume you probably think that wasn't Russia either. In that case they did the exact same, a big, unsubtle way to kill someone that guarantees headlines.

There's no balance to be had here, however bad you think the UK is, Russia and its quasi-dictator are leagues worse in terms of transparency, in terms of behaviour, there's a reason Russia is a pariah state and for all you can moan, the UK certainly isn't. Russia is a mafia state. This is the kind of shit they do.
Litvinenko is different, he was an open critic of Putin, and the "Mafia State" and was seemingly made an example of. Highly probably it was the Russian Government and ordered by Putin himself. The whole case makes sense in a way that the Skripal case definitely does not.

Nothing similar to the Skripal case and the diplomatic climate is completely different as well, with the Trump accusations and general hostility to Russia.
 

JulesWinnfield

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Litvinenko is different, he was an open critic of Putin, and the "Mafia State" and was seemingly made an example of. Highly probably it was the Russian Government and ordered by Putin himself. The whole case makes sense in a way that the Skripal case definitely does not.

Nothing similar to the Skripal case and the diplomatic climate is completely different as well, with the Trump accusations and general hostility to Russia.
How is it not similar?

How can you say this isn't Russia because its too obvious, but then agree Litivenko was despite that being even more obvious. The guy was even left alive and speaking for days before he died. I'm guessing you aren't privvy to Skripal's private conversations or his activities with MI6.

They definitely wouldn't use a nerve agent that could only be discovered and with absolute certainty would lead to diplomatic issues and sanctions. What are the benefits to Russia of doing that?
But they would use polonium that leaves a massive signal wherever you take it and similarly led to sanctions and issues? As I've said before the sanctions are nothing. Russia know that, the UK knows that, everyone knows that. It's just a word to make it seem like we're doing something - all that's actually happened by and large is a few diplomats got expelled.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Litvinenko is different, he was an open critic of Putin, and the "Mafia State" and was seemingly made an example of. Highly probably it was the Russian Government and ordered by Putin himself. The whole case makes sense in a way that the Skripal case definitely does not.

Nothing similar to the Skripal case and the diplomatic climate is completely different as well, with the Trump accusations and general hostility to Russia.
As @2cents asked earlier, how do you know what a Russian double agent has been up to?

Not that Putin needs anymore a specific reason for dealing with a ‘traitor’.

A nerve agent is used for the terror factor. Any traitors or would be traitors are warned that death can come for them at any time or moment and they won’t know anything about it.

One theory is that it also served to test the unity of the West following Brexit and Trump. That is the general feeling among Western leaders it seems.
 

Mb194dc

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Putin had very obvious motivation to eliminate Litivenko, make him suffer and make a statement. The diplomatic climate gave him leeway to get away with doing it without too much risk. Different time completely.

There is no obvious reason for Putin to come after Skripal now. Especially not with a nerve agent that could only lead to Russia being accused and more diplomatic issues / sanctions from the UK and US. Importantly they didn't even actually manage to kill him. Not much of a statement is it?

Why would Putin deal with this “Traitor” now and completely fail to actually kill him? Nothing about the official line on Skripal makes sense.
 

MoskvaRed

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This is exactly what I meant before...

If they really wanted to eliminate Skripal I have no doubt they could have done. Just look what happened to Jill Dando, and that was in a London street in broad daylight to a high profile TV presenter. Almost certainly a state sponsored hit (Serbia probably).. The Met fitted the local oddball Barry George up for that, although he did get released after spending 6 years inside, despite being obviously innocent..

They definitely wouldn't use a nerve agent that could only be discovered and with absolute certainty would lead to diplomatic issues and sanctions. What are the benefits to Russia of doing that?
There was absolutely no certainty it would lead to serious diplomatic issues and sanctions. The UK was isolated due to Brexit and Trump in the White House, and this provocation (coming not long after Boris Johnson’s very uncomfortable time in Moscow, in which many Russians saw his behaviour as downright rude) was a perfect opportunity to try to prod just how weak the ties of the Western alliance had become. It turns out they misjudged the situation, although, from a Putin perspective, it still had some benefits by allowing him to circle the wagons some more at home at a time when the economy is stagnant and they are struggling to pay for social services (hence the pension law reform).

I also have no idea why you are bringing up the Jill Dando case from 20 years ago - it comes across as unsubtle deflection and whataboutery.
 

Raoul

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Putin had very obvious motivation to eliminate Litivenko, make him suffer and make a statement. The diplomatic climate gave him leeway to get away with doing it without too much risk. Different time completely.

There is no obvious reason for Putin to come after Skripal now. Especially not with a nerve agent that could only lead to Russia being accused and more diplomatic issues / sanctions from the UK and US. Importantly they didn't even actually manage to kill him. Not much of a statement is it?

Why would Putin deal with this “Traitor” now and completely fail to actually kill him? Nothing about the official line on Skripal makes sense.
He doesn't care about consequences. He hates traitors and wants them eliminated.
 

Mb194dc

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I guess if anyone wants to believe the gov line, no matter how ridiculous it is, then that is up to them.

Bought Dando up just as an example of how state operatives can assassinate someone far higher profile than Skripal in the UK with minimal fuss. The UK establishment then blame it on whoever it's politically palatable too. Clear parallel for me with the Skripal case. I suppose people actually thought George did it... Too unpalatable to admit it was highly probably Serbian agents and sweet FA could be done about it. Wouldn't have suited Blair's "Things can only get better" vibe.

Now it's far too unpalatable to admit whatever shenanigans have been going on at Porton Down so it's the Russians, obviously..
 

Classical Mechanic

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I guess if anyone wants to believe the gov line, no matter how ridiculous it is then that is up to them.

Bought Dando up just as an example of how state operatives can assassinate someone far higher profile than Skripal in the UK with minimal fuss. The UK establishment then blame it on whoever it's politically palatable too. Clear parallel for me with the Skripal case. I suppose people actually thought George did it... Too unpalatable to admit it was highly probably Serbian agents and sweet FA could be done about it. Wouldn't have suited Blair's "Things can only get better" vibe.

Now it's far too unpalatable to admit whatever shenanigans have been going on at Porton Down so it's the Russians, obviously..
Russian special forces accidental killed 170 people of the people they were trying to save in 2002 and botched the assassination of Litvinenko. Why do you expect competency from them in these matters?
 

Stactix

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Britain were behind the attempted murder of the Skirpals to take attention away from Brexit.............

That's the thing, if anything it should bring more attention to Brexit as it makes it even more fecking obvious that it's a horrendous decision. It empowers Russia as it weakens both the UK and the EU. So that argument is horrendously shite.

And at the same time, if it was ever revealed that the British were actually behind it, Britain can say good bye to ever getting another double agent.
While Russia have proven that they will take out those that betray them. The attack on the Skirpals, sends multiple messages, one to anyone that ever dares cross Russia. They will come for you, two. It tests the waters, seeing what they can get away with, seeing how United the West are.

And in all honesty, seeing as how it's pretty darn obvious that Trump is compromised. Britain pulling something off like this, with Brexit on the cards meaning isolation from the EU and not being able to rely on America.. it's all to fecking risky for no fecking benefits. (Sound famillar?)
 

Vitro

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I guess if anyone wants to believe the gov line, no matter how ridiculous it is, then that is up to them.

Bought Dando up just as an example of how state operatives can assassinate someone far higher profile than Skripal in the UK with minimal fuss. The UK establishment then blame it on whoever it's politically palatable too. Clear parallel for me with the Skripal case. I suppose people actually thought George did it... Too unpalatable to admit it was highly probably Serbian agents and sweet FA could be done about it. Wouldn't have suited Blair's "Things can only get better" vibe.

Now it's far too unpalatable to admit whatever shenanigans have been going on at Porton Down so it's the Russians, obviously..
Why do you believe it more likely that Theresa May, with no known history of false flag operations planned this rather than believe it to have been Putin, who has a history of assassinating political enemies?

Taking into account that you have no knowledge of what Skripal has been involved in over the last few years.
 

Tarrou

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Its funny how the fact it was a botched job is brought up as a reason why it isn't Russia, as if they're the international experts on efficient murders.
 

Red Defence

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They made a ridiculous mess trying to kill Litvinenko and the attempt on the Skripals’ life was an even bigger failure. They’ve both got the GRU stamp all over them. Seems the more complex the operation the bigger the ballsup. Not really any wonder that Russia has been trying frantically to concoct the most ludicrous reasons why it can’t possibly be them and must be the U.K.

Considering that the quite damning evidence we’ve seen is only a small proportion of what the police/intelligence have uncovered it’s quite futile to continually bang on about why it couldn’t possibly be Russia.
 

Cloudface

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Its funny how the fact it was a botched job is brought up as a reason why it isn't Russia, as if they're the international experts on efficient murders.
The idea of Russia and Russian agencies being hyperefficient 4D chess playing geniuses seems to be a fetish of people from all political persuasions. Despite all evidence to the contrary. It's weird. Must be the topless pictures.
 

TheReligion

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I guess if anyone wants to believe the gov line, no matter how ridiculous it is, then that is up to them.

Bought Dando up just as an example of how state operatives can assassinate someone far higher profile than Skripal in the UK with minimal fuss. The UK establishment then blame it on whoever it's politically palatable too. Clear parallel for me with the Skripal case. I suppose people actually thought George did it... Too unpalatable to admit it was highly probably Serbian agents and sweet FA could be done about it. Wouldn't have suited Blair's "Things can only get better" vibe.

Now it's far too unpalatable to admit whatever shenanigans have been going on at Porton Down so it's the Russians, obviously..
Yes. Porton Down tired to randomly murder an ex Russian spy and his daughter. Porton Down also left traces of Novichok in a hotel room and then filled a bottle of perfume and discarded it in a bin.

Do you even read what you're writing? People survived both incidents so there's actual key witness evidence available.

Its funny how the fact it was a botched job is brought up as a reason why it isn't Russia, as if they're the international experts on efficient murders.
Exactly.
 

Cheesy

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The most baffling part about the idea this is a conspiracy to distract us from Brexit is patently absurd considering it's an incident which, if anything, highlights the need for European unity in combating Russia on certain matters, and one which shows how Europe ideally needs to work together against them. Indeed, when the Brexit vote came in, the likes of Russia were more delighted than anyone else.
 

Classical Mechanic

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The idea of Russia and Russian agencies being hyperefficient 4D chess playing geniuses seems to be a fetish of people from all political persuasions. Despite all evidence to the contrary. It's weird. Must be the topless pictures.
The most baffling part about the idea this is a conspiracy to distract us from Brexit is patently absurd considering it's an incident which, if anything, highlights the need for European unity in combating Russia on certain matters, and one which shows how Europe ideally needs to work together against them. Indeed, when the Brexit vote came in, the likes of Russia were more delighted than anyone else.
The British Govt false flag conspiracy theories would also require May's government to be highly competent 4D chess players, all while they are scrambling around Bexit. Does anyone actually believe they are capable of pulling this off?
 

Rajma

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Putin had very obvious motivation to eliminate Litivenko, make him suffer and make a statement. The diplomatic climate gave him leeway to get away with doing it without too much risk. Different time completely.

There is no obvious reason for Putin to come after Skripal now. Especially not with a nerve agent that could only lead to Russia being accused and more diplomatic issues / sanctions from the UK and US. Importantly they didn't even actually manage to kill him. Not much of a statement is it?

Why would Putin deal with this “Traitor” now and completely fail to actually kill him? Nothing about the official line on Skripal makes sense.
You must be kidding me, this was done right before the Russian Presidential 'election' to try and galvanize the country again as well as flood the TV content (since there's little positive to report locally) with a narrative similar to - "...only Putin can save us from lying west as we're getting attacked from every corner without a single proof, another reason for the need of a strong leader to stand up to western bullies...". Don't pretend being stupid, please.
 

nickm

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Putin had very obvious motivation to eliminate Litivenko, make him suffer and make a statement. The diplomatic climate gave him leeway to get away with doing it without too much risk. Different time completely.

There is no obvious reason for Putin to come after Skripal now. Especially not with a nerve agent that could only lead to Russia being accused and more diplomatic issues / sanctions from the UK and US. Importantly they didn't even actually manage to kill him. Not much of a statement is it?

Why would Putin deal with this “Traitor” now and completely fail to actually kill him? Nothing about the official line on Skripal makes sense.
I just love this. Amateur hour guesswork.
 

nickm

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I guess if anyone wants to believe the gov line, no matter how ridiculous it is, then that is up to them.

Bought Dando up just as an example of how state operatives can assassinate someone far higher profile than Skripal in the UK with minimal fuss. The UK establishment then blame it on whoever it's politically palatable too. Clear parallel for me with the Skripal case. I suppose people actually thought George did it... Too unpalatable to admit it was highly probably Serbian agents and sweet FA could be done about it. Wouldn't have suited Blair's "Things can only get better" vibe.

Now it's far too unpalatable to admit whatever shenanigans have been going on at Porton Down so it's the Russians, obviously..
So because the police fecked up the Dando investigation a generation ago, a bunch of Russians using a Russian weapon targeting a Russian spy, following the template of a previous Russian assassination, is evidence of a sophisticated UK plot to something something Brexit? You need to get out more, or you'll be believing the moon landing was faked next.
 

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Actually shocked he didn't just come out and say it was Navalny.
 

Mb194dc

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The suspects have spoken today. It's very, very lol to be honest especially the bit about Salisbury Cathedral. Almost seems like the Russians are tolling the UK...

Can't really believe they weren't sent to Salisbury by someone, even if just to mislead British Intelligence. More going on here definitely. If they are responsible and are GRU or connected with Russian Intelligence or the military, why would Putin let them put out this hilarious interview?

I'm thinking more will come out.
 

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Guess we'll never find out.
 

Irish Jet

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They travelled 3,500 miles to visit two tourist destinations but decided not to because of the slush.

Russians. Afraid of the snow. Go figure.
 

harms

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The state of this :lol:. Listing off facts about Salisbury to legitimise their little holiday.
It's incredible and even funnier when you hear their voices in Russian. Interestingly, even the interviewer (Margarita Simonyan, RT's editor-in-chief) is practically laughing at some of their answers
 
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The Purley King

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That was absolutely farcical. Obviously lots of tourists land in London, then go on a recce trip to the town they want to visit first to scope out what they want to visit, then travel 100 miles or so back to London, sleep the night and return the next day only to be put off by some slush. Okaaaaaaay.
Surely Putin realises that nobody is buying that shit, but struggling to see what other excuse he could have come up with.
 

Mihajlovic

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Read somewhere on Twitter today that the guys are gay lovers ;)

I think it's ridiculous to think that those two numpties are GRU agents sent by Putin to kill some bloke in Salisbury, then fail the job, then go back to Russia and Putin, instead of making them disappear somewhere in the Grunderworld, orders them to go on TV and talk some crap about the cathedral. Is this a joke?
 

Classical Mechanic

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Surely Putin realises that nobody is buying that shit
But yes, they are.

I think it's ridiculous to think that those two numpties are GRU agents sent by Putin to kill some bloke in Salisbury, then fail the job, then go back to Russia and Putin, instead of making them disappear somewhere in the Grunderworld, orders them to go on TV and talk some crap about the cathedral. Is this a joke?
 

MoskvaRed

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That was absolutely farcical. Obviously lots of tourists land in London, then go on a recce trip to the town they want to visit first to scope out what they want to visit, then travel 100 miles or so back to London, sleep the night and return the next day only to be put off by some slush. Okaaaaaaay.
Surely Putin realises that nobody is buying that shit, but struggling to see what other excuse he could have come up with.
It’s an expression of his contempt for the UK - he knows this charade is transparently ridiculous but also figures the UK is too weak to do much about it.
 

Adisa

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They've really gone for the "tourist" angle.