Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by #07, Sep 18, 2019.
He definitely reads the Caf
He's on the money.
I wish our fan base - online at least (the match-day fans definitely get it) would understand that this is all about the long-term.
Any fan judging Ole on what happens this season alone is failing to see the bigger picture.
What I love the most is that Ole wants Sancho.. but it was impossible to prise him away from Dortmund this summer.. but did the club panic buy and say 'well let's get Bale in - or let's buy somebody else for that position"? - no.. the club has patience. The board, the manager, the players all know where it's going.
Ole also wants either Longstaff or Rice but neither could be prised away... did we panic buy instead? No. We are taking our time to build the type of team and type of identity Man Utd needs to get back to the top.
The board are fully behind Ole and the fans need to get in line too.
Anybody complaining about results/performances this season are missing the point of what the club are trying to do.
This is all about the bigger picture.
We all need a large dollop of my username.
I fully agree with Gary, it is really important that Utd keep Ole on for the next couple of windows to finish this job. We need to stop this nonsense that was started post Fergie. If we change the manager we need to make sure we have a DoF onboard to continue the plan set in motion by Ole. Give him money in January and give him next summer for recruiting our spine.
I'm on board.
Yes, some of our results are not what you'd have wanted, but the 3 signings that Ole has made so far have been excellent, and each of those players has clearly had a positive impact.
I'm also very happy that Solskjaer has identified the exact same players as the fans have as being 'deadwood', and he is systematically removing them from the squad.
Not sure what incoming business we can pull off in January, but even one top MF might make a tremendous difference to the season's conclusion.
Next summer, I would hope and expect Solskjaer to have even more of a transfer kitty available, and another 3 top class additions signed, as well as the youngsters developing to their potential.
Exciting times I think, and I'm optimistic for our future..
not seen it yet but the moaning in this thread is gonna go off the charts
Carragher is a total tool in this clip
Agreed with this point especially. Look at Liverpool, they were unable to get Van Dijk that summer when they were trying hard to get him. Instead of panic buying some other CB they waited and got him later. Think City did something similar with Mahrez.
I do think we should still have some backup options just in case we really can't get the player we want most, but they'd have to be approved by Ole and they have to be planned well in advance.
All of what you say is true but it is all on the assumption that Ole will be a good enough coach once all the pieces are fixed. He might not be, and we might be investing time in someone who is never going to be good enough. There isn't much to suggest which way it will go at the moment. I'm very happy with what he has been doing off the field but on pitch it is worrying. I wonder if he would have been more suited to the DOF job than the manager position.
Not watched it but it comes down to development of players and the building of a well managed football team. That's more important than any Fa cup /Europa League/top 4 finish IMO. Buy well, develop well and build a team that knows how to play.
As for Ole in particular and how he's doing on these parameters. I'd say his coaching of the team is worrying but his buys seem very good. As for developing existing players - too early to tell. We'll be in a better to tell how he's doing with regards to the above expectations 3-4 months from now.
Even if we're finishing mid-table? I agree that he appears to be doing great work off the pitch but that's got to start translating onto the pitch sooner then later, or else what's the point in keeping him on as manager? Ole might as well be used as a DOF if all he's going to do is build a team.
How does not winning now translate into winning in the future?
We can't just simply lose out on our short term targets. This is a result driven business. It's all nice and well knowing we're trying to build a sustainable future but if we don't hit goals such as top 4 then there'll be no future. If we make too many mistakes, we'll find ourselves in limbo ala Liverpool/City for 30-40 years.
I think Ole is a place-holder and not in the way we think.
I genuinely think the Glazers are looking to sell - probably in around 1-2yrs. I think they'll spend as little as possible in the transfer windows while peddling the 'patience' narrative to the media/fans and in Ole they have a manager the fans are unlikely to turn on and thus, will give time to allow them to quietly plan their exit.
I think by summer 2021 they will be gone, we'll be cemented as a top 8-10 team and Ole will be replaced by whoever is the new owner(s).
Can't see why they would sell. United would cost too much for the buyer as well. Would have made more sense had we declined off the pitch as well.
On what planet does selling United make sense?
The Glazers aren't going to sell.. why would they? The value of United - and indeed all Premier League clubs - is rising and rising with ever passing second. And with a new TV deal to be announced in 2020 - of which, I believe Amazon are going to be a mega part of - the value is going to rise even higher.
It makes no sense for the Glazers to even consider selling...
Where did you get that bizarre notion from?
On the money as usual.
Chasing short term targets is the reason we are in the mess we are now. If we do now have a long term plan, stick to it.
I agree with him but there's a big grey area with the team he discussed, in that the young players still have it all to prove. Just bring young and playing for Manchester United doesn't mean you'll be good enough or a great player.
Like he said though, the toughest job is still to be done in improving the spine of the team.
Under Van Gaal we chased a mixture of short and long term and same under Jose. Bailly Lindelof, Shaw Depay, Martial, Schneirdelin Lukaku, Pogba, Fred Dalot all under 26 when we signed them
Quite surprising really because he generally makes more sense than most pundits.But here,yes,he's talking BS.
Hmm, I dunno. Leaving glaring holes in the team on the assumption that they will just join us next time we come knocking doesn't seem smart. How long are we to wait for Sancho to come around to the idea of joining United? What if that is 3 years from now? should we leave the right wing vacant till then? As for the midfield, I have to question the judgement of Ole and the club if they have decided to persist with midfield a lacking in depth and quality because they only wanted Longstaff or Rice. Maybe Sancho is worth waiting for but these 2 are not the only midfielders around and they are not the only ones who can improve the team, if they continue to develop they will only become more costly and harder to prise from their clubs. Having your prime targets is fine but we should scout and sound out other options for if these don't pan out.
I get your point about a long term overhaul and bringing in personnel who are a good fit, but we also have to know what we're waiting for. Right now we're relying on lots of the young guys coming good, on Ole proving to be a great coach, and on targets wanting to come/being attainable. If it pays off then great, but if not we could end up in an even worse position.
I think Carragher, in playing the shit-eating devil's advocate, does have a point that Neville's spine idea breaks down to 'add three world-class players = improvement' as if it's some big surprise. I also think Neville's boiling down Liverpool's rise to the addition of Firminho, Fabinho, Van Diyk and Allison as if Klopp hasn't done great work all over the place getting tunes out of Wijnaldum, Henderson and Milner and bringing Robertson and TAA on is very simplistic.
All that said I largely agree with Neville's premise that recruitment and the quality/current ability of senior players is a major factor in our woes on the pitch and the idea of hanging young players like McTominay, James, AWB and even Rashford out to dry instead is wrong.
We have finished from 5th-7th so I don't see us be below that. We will be competing for 4th this season. If we finish below 6th-7th there isn't really any debate about it. But of course its connected to us doing reasonably well.
A mixed bag of not good enough, not the right fit, not the right mentality. And then you throw in signings like Sanchez (to play left wing over Rashford and Martial). The hope is we've learnt our lesson from such a scattergun approach.
Gary is correct in terms of players. However, I do believe we will need someone like Rose or Nagelsmann to move us up.
That makes absolutely no sense. If they were really looking to sell then they would want to do it when the team is at it's most valuable. A team who wins the league is more valuable than a team who finishes 8th-10th place...
Neville said the same about Moyes...was he right about that?
He always bangs on about time and patience but it only works if you're laying foundations down for the future and you've got the right people making decisions...our summer didn't show that and we don't have the ambition to compete IMO.
We can improve and be at least competitive but it'll be in the region of 4th and the odd cup run at best.
There's no evidence that the Glazers are looking to sell, it's completely wishful thinking based on nothing.
I never understood giving an average manager more time. This is Manchester United. When this job became available did anyone say we should look at Ole? Like I know he is a legend and all. But before he came here did anyone here say you know from everything I seen Ole will be a top manager.
Then we look at since he has been here. Can anyone say I like what I see. I like his approach and can see what he is building? This is one area English football is different from rest of the world. People here think every manager deserve time and backing. He has shown nothing to deserve more time and more backing. I have seen nothing that tells me he is a very good manager and I think everyone would agree if he didnt have history at the club.
Explain to me how you've come to this conclusion. I've seen it a few times now but it's never qualified.
Just watched that interview. I want Ole to succeed. I am prepared to write this season off in terms of rebuild. However we must start to see an identity and at least see the club going in the right direction playing wise. I agree with G Nev that the senior players are not very good, but I disagree with him on the youth. I have a feeling some of our youth players are overhyped. Perriera, Rashy, Darren Fletcher's god son. Lets get behind the lads. I just wish he would play Gomes and not play Lingard and Mata but hey ho
I personally can't see Ole being a good enough coach. I hope I'm wrong.
But we don't have a squad that can play title challenging football, regardless of who took over.
Liverpool was playing great football for years before Klopp, Rogers set great foundations for a better manager to build from. Same with City before they started to dominate.
Ole needs at least 1 more season (possibly 2 if he can achieve top 4 two years running) to sort out the mess and then perhaps move to DoF and allow a better coach to take over.
I'm all or giving Ole time but we have to be careful that it doesn't become a free pass. I don't think this squad is good enough or deep enough to get top 4 so I'm not holding him to that, but if we finish outside the top 6 then questions have to be asked, especially if he is short of ideas tactically, we see no improvement in the playing style and he is still persisting with the likes of Matic, Mata and Lingard as that is not building anything, it's treading water with the same players we know aren't good enough to lift us out of the hole we are in.
I understand where people are coming from in terms of expectations being lowered and in the long term, yes it might prove to be the wrong appointment but as a club, we have tried the more assured options in Mourinho, Van Gaal etc. The former tried to bring in experienced players he could trust as well and that did not work out in the way we all hoped it would. It makes perfect sense for United as a club to turn around and say "Okay, the tried and tested approach hasn't worked, let's take a different experimental approach and back it fully and let's see where it takes us". The signings Ole has made so far have all been positive, so I think for now, a step backwards is a step in the right direction.
Sure a few games so far have been up and down in terms of performances and results but to me, that's a good early sign things are changing for the better. I actually think that will be a defining characteristic of our season, beating a few of the top teams really convincingly and losing points to teams we should be beating. Remember how Klopp started at Liverpool? They went from celebrating draws at home to teams like West Brom to winning the Champions League in a few years. That's also what we all need to remember, that this process is going to take time and we need to just accept things as they are for now. Expecting to challenge for the top places all the way through to May with little to no bumps in the road is only going to lead to disappointment considering where the team is at right now. Let's temper our expectations for instant results and get behind the plan and the team.
Definitely agree about the not panic buying as that’s what got us into a lot of the mess we’re currently in now. Ole clearly wants Sancho, Maddison and Rice or Longstaff (my preference is Rice) but it wasn’t possible this summer so we play the long game and they become our priority targets next summer like Maguire and Wan-Bisakka were this summer.
United are 3rd in the league over Ole's 26 league games (2/3 of a full season) so far. Table is:
Liverpool - 67 points
City - 64 points
United - 48 points
Arsenal - 44 points
Chelsea - 43 points
Crystal Palace - 41 points
Spurs - 40 points
Leicester - 38 points
Everton - 37 points
Finish top 4 and play good football and Ole stays for next season. Anything else and he should follow the previous managers. We're not going to drop the expectations for United even more than how it already dropped just because we now have an ex-legend as a manager. He would and should be evaluated like any other manager. The results will determine his fate.
His point is somewhat confusing. He says our experienced players are largely shit(I agree) and the club needs top experienced players to guide these young players. But he also says he is happy the club has given up buy experienced top talent.
Our transfers have been largely bad only if you look at them in hindsight. If you look at the players individually, most were regarded as fine signings when they were made. Look at most of our signings objectively in the past 6 years. They were not bad players, that's why we spent big money on them. Our biggest failing has been a clear lack of footballing identity. We have repeatedly signed players into disjointed teams and done them no justice.
Until we have an idea of how we want to play and how we want our footballing identity to be, players will continue to fail at this club. Doesn't matter what changes we make to the recruitment.
Don't get me wrong, I want us to continue signing young players. I also want us to get rid of the experienced ones cause theybhave proven to be turd.
Expectations aren't being dropped becauae we have an ex as a coach. Expectations are rightly being dropped because there is a realisation that we need to clear the decks and depend mostly on young players who have never achieved anything.
I'm sure all of the feels from the Sancho camp on the Longstaff/Rice camps are that they would be interested in signing for us...
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