I am not criticising Beckham in any way. I'm only saying that if he wasn't the best crosser the world has ever seen then he would have played as a CM not as a RW. Scholes was quite a good no 10 until we decided to move him in CM. He held the fort quite fine during Cantona's suspension and he was moved in CM simply because Sir Alex thought he was still too young to lead the line (hence we bought Teddy) and far too good not to play him. In fact he toyed with the idea of moving Scholes upfront when we bought JSV but that experiment failed miserably.
Sky Sports: Gary Neville on Utd's season expectations | MNF
- Thread starter #07
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
But Cantona got suspended during 94-95 when Blackburn won the title! Scholes didn’t become a regular till 95-96? So I’m not sure about that
Edit: he missed a lot of the next season, so you’re probably correct!
Last edited:
Precisely and he conveniently ignores it was much more than 3 players that transformed that Liverpool team. You can say Alisson, VVD, Fabihno completed the transformation but its clearly the front three that put them in that position. Salah Mane and Firmino is one of the best front 3's the PL has ever seen and they are the main reason why Liverpool are what they are apart from Klopp.
While Carra was being a bit silly in the video, he was bang on to say it was way too simplistic to say we need a world class spine.
“Match going fans” a term used by people in the online world to try and add weight / validity to their point of view and shame any other counter view.
So yeah. Take it with a pinch of salt. For all we know the poster who wrote probably never been to OT themselves
Absolutely. He even claimed "Sanchez was free he just had high wages. WTF kind of asinine opinion is that? Mkhitaryan went the other way Gary, and those wages were so high they blew the salary structure out of the water and jeopardized renewals for other existing players.
Then he proceeds to list over 30-years who've failed at United as an indictment of the failed transfer strategy and lists Falcao, Di Maria, Schweinsteiger and Sanchez. He confuses correlation and causality. Falcao and Di Maria did play well after United. Schweinsteiger didn't. Sanchez we don't know what kind of post-United career he will have. So there's no clear trend. Is the problem hiring foreign 30-yr olds Gary (note that Falcao, Di Maria and Sanchez weren't 30-yr olds when signed), or is the club such a shambles that does not yield the best out of its transfer targets regardless of age and nationality?
I have no idea why serious people have time for Gary Neville, he's a simpleton.
Yeah totally agree. Nev doesn't want to criticize ole too much but it is causing him to reach a little bit
Gary Neville is such a train-wreck, I find Carragher to be more level headed.
GNev "3 players at Liverpool made such a big difference, Van Dijk, Firmino and Fabinho, if United can get them in the next 12-18 months it will make a massive difference".
This idea that VVD singlehandedly fixed Liverpool's defense massively understates the impact of Alison, Robertson, Matip and the emergence of TAA as well as the brilliance of Klopp in forging a cohesive unit. This idea that in 12 to 18 months Man United will be at the same level only if we buy our own Virgil, Firmino and Fabinho is such a crock of shit.
Liverpool in the last 3 years have bought Mane, Salah, Alison, Virgil, Robertson, Firmino, Naby Keita, Fabinho, Shaq, Ox, Wijnaldum, Matip etc. And have Klopp. This has not been 2-3 players having an impact, this has been many players having marginal impact overall, under a brilliant manager.
This post should be pinned right under the OP, it's so spot on.
He's not completely wrong though. 3 very good players in key areas will definitely elevate us. Who knows how high.
Of course if we get more than 3, then the sky's the limit.
Good recruitment is what's required as well as some patience for the younger ones.
Of course if we get more than 3, then the sky's the limit.
Good recruitment is what's required as well as some patience for the younger ones.
Falcao did not play well for United. He was atrocious. Schweinsteiger was atrocious and so was Sanchez. I don't see what point you are making about their post career's. The only relevant point is that they were atrocious when they played for United. Di Maria was generally poor too, other than a few good games at the start of the season.
Regarding your point about correlation and causality, he identified a link between the signings we have made and our poor performances and positions in the table. I don't see where he has "confused correlation and causality". A correlation does not show a dependence, but it does not dismiss one either - so its perfectly reasonable to make statements based on correlations, as long as you understand their context. Proving two variables depend on one another is actually very difficult and probably impossible in certain fields. So all you can do is make an educated guess. Does anyone really believe our recruitment strategy has not had an impact on our position in the table?
I think his general point was reasonable. He perhaps could have explained some points better and as you highlighted in other posts, in isolation, some parts were not clear or perhaps wrong. Generally I don't see what is so wrong in what he is saying. You have to also remember he is on television, speaking on the spot - we have the luxury of speaking online and taking however long we like to make a post and there is also a pressure on him to deliver analysis too.
Agree completely with @VP and @Suedesi.
Neville has no idea how to manage a team and a club (as he illustrated in Valencia) - he is a failed manager, which is why he returned to safe shores of being a pundit and never thought about managing again. Now, he used to be a decent pundit when he limited himself to talking about in-game tactics, though even there his bias seeped in eventually (we all remember Rooney's "silent domination"). He is quickly becoming one of the biggest irritants on TV - and that takes some doing among Souness, Redknapp, Owen et al.
Neville has no idea how to manage a team and a club (as he illustrated in Valencia) - he is a failed manager, which is why he returned to safe shores of being a pundit and never thought about managing again. Now, he used to be a decent pundit when he limited himself to talking about in-game tactics, though even there his bias seeped in eventually (we all remember Rooney's "silent domination"). He is quickly becoming one of the biggest irritants on TV - and that takes some doing among Souness, Redknapp, Owen et al.
His general point is indeed reasonable, but when the contradiction of what he has said in the past is pointed out to him, he becomes defensive and aggressive. That's the classic sign of a bully. Also, he never mentions how Rooney was allowed to overstay his welcome at the club. Only non-British players are picked out like the ones you have mentioned. It's happened to many times from Neville for it to be just a coincidence.
I would say it is more about protecting his friends rather than protecting a player because he is "British". I would also say Rooney was nowhere near as bad as Falcao, or the others mentioned. He was certainly in decline, but still capable of scoring goals and providing the odd long field pass. I wouldn't say he is a bully either - particularly as it seems he has formed a friendship with Carragher off the television cameras.
Exactly. The most important thing is that Neville ignores/forgets or intentionally fails to mention that although Allison and VVD elevated Liverpool up a level, before signing those two players, Klopp had already made them a very good team that were playing great football and they had one obvious flaw. People were saying they were just a world class CB and GK short of being serious title challengers. Are our needs so obvious?
For United to become serious title contenders. Ole has to develop Salah/Mane/Firminho like form out of Rashford, Martial, James.. I actually think at younger ages our three have shown better potential they just need the right environment, manager and team. He also needs to sign one or two CM’s and ensure that our team develops a cohesive style of play that gets the best out of everyone.
Great post.
My point which you missed, is that our issues are not simply due to poor recruitment alone, but go much deeper than that. Just blaming recruitment in isolation is not the panacea to the troubles the club is going through. To make my point clearer, just look at the trajectory of some of those players that GNev mentioned:
- Di Maria - brilliant at Benfica, brilliant at Real Madrid, dogshit at United, brilliant at PSG, brilliant at Argentina. Brilliant everywhere else, but United
- Alexis Sanchez - brilliant at Udinese, brilliant at Barcelona, brilliant at Arsenal, dogshit at United, brilliant with Chile, TBD at Inter. Brilliant everywhere else, but United
- Falcao - brilliant at Porto, brilliant at Atletico, brilliant at Monaco, bad knee injury, dogshit at United, dogshit at Chelsea, pretty good back at Monaco, pretty with Colombia. Definitely not the same player after the injury
- Schweinsteiger - brilliant at Munchen and Die Mannschaft, dogshit at United, decent in MLS. Injury concerns, consensus is he was too old when he joined.
Maybe the club had the right player, but the wrong manager, the wrong philosophy, the wrong physical therapist (hello Hargreaves), the wrong nutritionist, the wrong atmosphere in the dressing room, there's simply too many variables why a transfer doesn't work itself out.
Therefore his conclusion that United will be fine once we stop buying 30 old foreigners and concentrate on emerging British talent doesn't really follow. That was my point.
This is not a fireside chat, impromptu, stream of consciousness, GNev talking from the heart kinda thing. This Gary Neville, who's rehearsed those talking points in front of a mirror many times. In fact, he's probably even built a custom made replica of the Sky studio desk, complete with a cardboard cutout of Carragher and he's sat there and made those points countless times until he's learned them by heart. He gets annoyed and upset when Carragher interrupts his flow with some pretty common sense questions, not because he's a bully, but because it deviates from the script he's practiced before so he's panicking.
Joking aside, he also wrote a piece on SkySports that pretty much summarized the points he made on MNF, so he stands by them. That's his job, that's what he gets paid for, we're just fans devoting our time and effort for no comp.
Agreed, and notice his criticism of Pogba has been completely out of bounds.
Did he mention Pogba in that video? I don't remember him doing so.
Yes agreed. We have the quality at the back or close to it be any team in the league. We don't appear to have the quality in cm. Up top our guys have a similar ceiling although another addition would help. That really is Oles challenge
Yup
Before I say this, I'm behind Ole 100% but I found it odd how Neville completely fails to mention the importance and impact a manager has. There is more to a good team than that spine he talks about.
Perhaps you are right, but that is hardly any better. It is thoroughly unprofessional and naturally evolves into an agenda.
I think that Gaz is right in most of what he said. Thus I will only focus on what I think he is wrong
He's spot on, on the need of having an experienced spine that could carry a young team to success. However such spine isn't the works of some sort of vision or prophecy. It was down to bringing players with talent but also having a manager capable of man managing them correctly. I mean lets take a look at the old guard's spine that Gaz mentioned. Bruce was probably one of the slowest CBs Sir Alex had ever had. Yet Sir Alex made it work. Prior to joining us Cantona was an train wreck. He lost it against Torpedo Moscow, he was banned from the national side after insulting the manager, he fought with a team mate, he threw a ball at a referee etc. In the UK we bought him because Leeds wanted him out. Then he came to United and voila, Sir Alex made it work and Cantona became a legend. Not to forget Keane whose a mix between a great footballer, a superb leader and Hannibal Lecter. Once again, Sir Alex made it work. The way the class of 92 was slowly introduced to first team only to become one of the best generations ever is a work of art. Sir Alex shielded them, he introduced them slowly while making sure that each kid he introduced would be surrounded by top quality players filled with experience, he built their confidence and then he trusted them with everything. Scholes was even moved in midfield because according to Sir Alex he lacked the experience to play upfront. Such decision paved the way to the man who would end up scoring a crucial goal in the CL final + it granted United the second best attacking midfielder in its history. That was a masterpiece of a plan, not some excuse thrown by the board and the manager to avoid spending money in a non existent midfield and forward line. Sir Alex would have never allowed the board to use the kids that way.
Thus I don't think anyone can say that United would be that much better if Firmino, Van Dijk and Fabinho were in the team. The reason being that these players who had slotted so well in Liverpool under a top manager might lack the motivation or that feel good factor if they joined another club lead by a different/inferior manager.
He's spot on, on the need of having an experienced spine that could carry a young team to success. However such spine isn't the works of some sort of vision or prophecy. It was down to bringing players with talent but also having a manager capable of man managing them correctly. I mean lets take a look at the old guard's spine that Gaz mentioned. Bruce was probably one of the slowest CBs Sir Alex had ever had. Yet Sir Alex made it work. Prior to joining us Cantona was an train wreck. He lost it against Torpedo Moscow, he was banned from the national side after insulting the manager, he fought with a team mate, he threw a ball at a referee etc. In the UK we bought him because Leeds wanted him out. Then he came to United and voila, Sir Alex made it work and Cantona became a legend. Not to forget Keane whose a mix between a great footballer, a superb leader and Hannibal Lecter. Once again, Sir Alex made it work. The way the class of 92 was slowly introduced to first team only to become one of the best generations ever is a work of art. Sir Alex shielded them, he introduced them slowly while making sure that each kid he introduced would be surrounded by top quality players filled with experience, he built their confidence and then he trusted them with everything. Scholes was even moved in midfield because according to Sir Alex he lacked the experience to play upfront. Such decision paved the way to the man who would end up scoring a crucial goal in the CL final + it granted United the second best attacking midfielder in its history. That was a masterpiece of a plan, not some excuse thrown by the board and the manager to avoid spending money in a non existent midfield and forward line. Sir Alex would have never allowed the board to use the kids that way.
Thus I don't think anyone can say that United would be that much better if Firmino, Van Dijk and Fabinho were in the team. The reason being that these players who had slotted so well in Liverpool under a top manager might lack the motivation or that feel good factor if they joined another club lead by a different/inferior manager.
DM, AM, and a CF. All top players and we will be challenging. The sooner we can get these 3 in the quicker we will see improvement.
People tend to think Liverpool's reemergence came out of nowhere. It just means they weren't paying attention to them because they didn't deem them a threat till only recently. They were playing mesmerising football loooong before VVD. Problem was because they would score 3 and concede 4 we made the mistake of assuming they were trading defensive stability for goals, that such a style was a gimmick and would never win
Did he really build that squad? A lot of the players were there when he joined.
Poch's so-called attacking style hasn't been seen for a season or two, Spurs are dreadful to watch most of the time.
I just don't understand why he gets so much praise lavished on him by caf posters.
Exactly, very strange from a guy who spent his career under SAF and should know that a great manager can make an average team exceed its potential but a poor manager will always fall short with a great team.
Exactly. And people also tend to think that Salah, Mane, Firninho, Robertson, Trent, etc etc came in as already established players... I still remember my, and others, reaction when Liverpool paid £39m for Salah, I remember not being too impressed when United were linked with Mane, we all knew VVD was a great CB but thought Liverpool had been had for £85m, don’t think the signing of Robertson even made headlines. Wjaldun signed from a relegated team...
Under a different coach those signings could have easily flopped.
"VVD for 75m
" was the response on here. Remember it because I never really knew much about him before I read it on hereYep.
So if United have a successful season you won’t be judging Ole? Really find it ridiculous that the people who judged him after 10 wins, now say don’t judge him this season, but if United have any success this season they will be the first to use it to judge Ole as a success.
Also this post is all about what Ole wants and it always goes on about players or type of players. Yes we all know and agree with what he wants. But a sizeable number of us do not believe that Ole has the managerial and coaching skill to take United to the top even if he gets what he wants.
Part of being a great manager is getting what you want. But from my understanding you’re saying Ole couldn’t prise away either Longstaff or Rice away from Newcastle and West Ham, despite having the board fully behind him..
Anyways. I want world peace, i want a cure for all diseases, I want to end poverty. Vote for me
Last edited: