I don’t want suffice I want spectacular, people talk about Carrick like he was absolutely amazing but it was Scholes that was the amazing one.
Sloppy passing and touches
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
The players should be prodded with a cattle prod to wake them up as they walk on to the pitch.
Scholes wasn't specially spectacular (apart from his long range goals). He was very consistent at his peak that's for sure.
That might be the worst take I’ve ever seen on here.
When I hear spectacular, I think of Zidane, Ronaldinho, Neymar. Scholes is a totally different player in terms of styles while having been one of the best players of his generation. HTH
It is. If a team in general look sloppy (as opposed to the odd individual) it's the manager's fault for not getting the individuals/collective to perform adequately or signing the right players to ensure it
Focus, composure etc these are all things a manager has to ensure his team has. It's a like thread about a problem which doesn't want to focus on how to fix it.
I think its down to three issues
a- Ole hates ball possession. His strategy is to move the ball forward from defense to attack as quickly as possible. In today's football that's a tough thing even with a well drilled side made up of top players who know each other inside out. That's because modern sides tend to flood their own half with players which means that there's not much space to operate in.
b- McFred are not good enough. At best they are squad player level B2B players. They lack the discipline and positioning to play in a DM role and their distribution of the ball is horrendous. That disrupts the flow of the game as the rest of the team are constantly concerned that they will soon have to chase the ball thanks to a feck up of those two.
c- Bruno is our main playmaker in CM and yet he's operating more as a second striker. That means that our team lacks a playmaker that is able to pass the ball into the correct channels. Add the quick tempo Ole wants to the mix and the issue become worse
a- Ole hates ball possession. His strategy is to move the ball forward from defense to attack as quickly as possible. In today's football that's a tough thing even with a well drilled side made up of top players who know each other inside out. That's because modern sides tend to flood their own half with players which means that there's not much space to operate in.
b- McFred are not good enough. At best they are squad player level B2B players. They lack the discipline and positioning to play in a DM role and their distribution of the ball is horrendous. That disrupts the flow of the game as the rest of the team are constantly concerned that they will soon have to chase the ball thanks to a feck up of those two.
c- Bruno is our main playmaker in CM and yet he's operating more as a second striker. That means that our team lacks a playmaker that is able to pass the ball into the correct channels. Add the quick tempo Ole wants to the mix and the issue become worse
Ole hates possession
We had 70 percent against Everton, btw.
Your takes really are among the most stupid ones on the Caf. I’ll take the infraction to finally state that.
I tend to let the loss of possession go if someone is trying a tight assist.
But apart from that, a dropping policy should be in place for anything that ends up with a goal against us
I don't think, the possession stat is an indicator of what Ole hates and what not. Just because teams surrender the ball to us because they know they can get something out of the game with setting up organized defenses, don't give spaces and wait for counters doesn't mean, WE want to play possession. What do you expect us to do, stay deep, trying to bait the opponent to having a go at us? Opponents would celebrate that decision because that makes the route to a 1-point 0:0 even more likelier.Ole hates possession
We had 70 percent against Everton, btw.
Your takes really are among the most stupid ones on the Caf. I’ll take the infraction to finally state that.
Just look at what happens when Ronaldo comes on against Everton, latest when Pogba comes on as well - we surrender the midfield completely and only go for long balls. That is the way we "try" to materialize pressure.
I think, your take in this instance is a bit naive - our opponents have intelligent people just as we do. Some stats aren't just affected by our own gameplan but also from the opponents. Nobody would describe us as having developed from a counter attacking outfit to an possession based outfit in Oles time at the club - no we are still heavily transition based (which in itself isn't a bad thing per se) but our opponents don't play right into our cards anymore. So we have to have possession which we aren't great in converting into goalchance creation.
a- I don't think, Ole hates possession but there are some indicators, that he doesn't give it the same meaning as other managers do. Which in itself wouldn't be a problem but a top club simply cannot rely on transitions only. I mean, I guess we could but then we have to emphasize creating goals using crosses and set pieces way way more than we currently do. Possession in the modern is a way of attacking and defending - as a top club you have to deal with it, if you want or not.
b- Our issues aren't just connected to personnel. They are apparent also when other players are employed in the midfield area. Plus have a look at Freds profile at fbref, he ranks more than well compared to other midfielders in terms of progressive passes. It isn't just their missing qualities, it is them being asked to play in an environment, that doesn't cater to their capabilities.
c- True, even though in the first half against Everton, I thought that Bruno has involved a bit more. But yes - he needs to be a midfield player first and has to learn to recognize the spots when to go as an attacker - even if that means his output takes a little hit, the team would benefit from it.
I don't think one player will change us as team, don't you think? Obviously a player of Scholes quality would suit us pretty well, it isn't just putting the best individuals together on the pitch. Pogba is also quite good playing passes of all ranges, the problems persist nonetheless.
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Our biggest culprits for sloppy passing and touches are:
Bruno
Fred
AWB
Maguire
Mctominay
you can get away with one or two players having sloppy touches in a team but not five! Sometimes I have to double check because I can’t believe some of the passes these five undertake. Bruno you can kind of let off a tiny bit because he is quality at times but the other four need training. Maguire is pretty one dimensional but is a good defender m. The worrying part is that it is our two centre mids who can’t really pass or control the ball. That is why we struggle half the time!
Bruno
Fred
AWB
Maguire
Mctominay
you can get away with one or two players having sloppy touches in a team but not five! Sometimes I have to double check because I can’t believe some of the passes these five undertake. Bruno you can kind of let off a tiny bit because he is quality at times but the other four need training. Maguire is pretty one dimensional but is a good defender m. The worrying part is that it is our two centre mids who can’t really pass or control the ball. That is why we struggle half the time!
I know the OP had said this is not down to coaching, but a big part of it is. One reason the passing seems so sharp for other teams is because they know where their team mates are going to be stationed and what runs they are likely to make, which makes the passes a lot easier. But if it's freestyle football there's going to be a lot of heavy passes, passes to stretch for etc. because the players are just on different wavelengths.
Please see my previous responses.
If we ignore the possibility that they could be coached to be less sloppy or to link up more instinctively then we have to go with confidence being the main factor. Because we’ve seen them look sharp and slick in isolated spells from time to time. So we know it’s possible when the team is full of confidence and on top of their game.
And then it comes back to what is involved in getting a team to play in a way that fills them with confidence…
It is a coaching issue, the players aren't drilled well enough to a point where passing to each other comes naturally. They've to stop, pause, think and then pass. They're especially susceptible to mistakes while being pressed, which is also due to inadequate coaching. Just relying on individual brilliance will only get you so far.
A team that's excellently coached makes football look simple and one that isn't makes it look difficulty. Whether it's the system elevating players or dragging dragging down, confidence, concentration or the right type of players, these are all things the manager has to put right. 4th season into Ole's time here and you're wondering why short passes are always a little off. Says it all, really.
It would be really funny if the board asked Ole at the end of this season why we're still trophyless and he reels off names of players whose passes are always underhit/overhit/infront or behind as if that's not really his problem to solve.
Sloppy passing and touches is absolutely down to coaching. It needs to be drilled into players every day every session.
It is like what Hargreaves said about Fred's missed attempts to win the ball for their equaliser and if it was Sir Alex he wouldn't play for a month after that. It's about having a certain standard and being unflinching maintaining them. The focus and concentration needs to be absolute and you get that through practice.
It is like what Hargreaves said about Fred's missed attempts to win the ball for their equaliser and if it was Sir Alex he wouldn't play for a month after that. It's about having a certain standard and being unflinching maintaining them. The focus and concentration needs to be absolute and you get that through practice.
I think the right player would change us as a team, yes. No difference to getting a world class striker, a world class midfielder can change a team yes. The right one like a Scholes will even lift the levels in training, we’ve heard that before from players.
I do believe however training/coaching can improve as well. You need competent coaching as well as players and tactics for it all to come together that’s true.
I'm afraid to have a thread about sloppy passing and touches and saying "don't mention Ole" is a bit like talking about petrol shortages and empty shelves and saying: "Don't mention Brexit". I want to know just how much of that goes on in training and why players who can't do the basics continue to get selected.
Did you watch how Liverpool and City (while playing each other) kept possession of the ball? Both goalkeepers are capable of passing at least as well as some of the players we have yet we know our players can be good, so what is going wrong?
Did you watch how Liverpool and City (while playing each other) kept possession of the ball? Both goalkeepers are capable of passing at least as well as some of the players we have yet we know our players can be good, so what is going wrong?
I walked away after the Villa game and honestly said, imagine what Pep would do with our squad. I did it again on Saturday, picturing him berating and organising the players from the sidelines after one sloppy pass. I know I shouldn’t, and I love Ole. He gave me unreal moments in ‘99. But look also at Liverpool’s starting eleven yesterday and how Klopp gets that team playing. It’s where we should be, no excuses. I think Ole would be the perfect assistant manager at United at his current experience level, but the fact is he sits in the hot seat and he can’t keep learning on the job. We demand more. I’ll caveat this by absolutely saying neither Fred nor McT would be good enough, are good enough, to play such key pivot roles in the premier league and it shows.
In what I have seen so far this season we are still a long way behind Liverpool, Chelsea, and City.
If we don't improve our midfield area we will be fighting for a top 4 finish.
Ole and his staff need to get selections and substitutions spot on for every game, and no matter who the player is. If he is not performing replace him.
This is not moaning. Liverpool, City, and Chelsea look streets ahead of us atm. We have a big squad yes, but some of them are deadwood that we need to get rid of and replace.
The youngsters will not be given many chances as long as we are holding onto players who are only going to warm the bench.
If we don't improve our midfield area we will be fighting for a top 4 finish.
Ole and his staff need to get selections and substitutions spot on for every game, and no matter who the player is. If he is not performing replace him.
This is not moaning. Liverpool, City, and Chelsea look streets ahead of us atm. We have a big squad yes, but some of them are deadwood that we need to get rid of and replace.
The youngsters will not be given many chances as long as we are holding onto players who are only going to warm the bench.
These are all top level professionals, in some cases world class players. they can pass the ball. It's coaching because of the following:
- At this level passing has to be second nature. If its not, you hesitate and overthink, leading to errors. It's only second nature when it's trained to be second nature.
- Passes are more risky than they should because players are not getting themselves in the right place to make or receive. Again, because they're not being told.
- Errors come because passes are made into congested space. It's congested because we're no good at positioning and stretching the play the way we want it. Our players don't know where to be on the pitch.
- its not one or two players, its all of them.
Like Tuchel said with Rio, you have to tell the players where to be and what to do on the pitch in each situation. How they do it is up to them. If you don't give that direction, it becomes too much and they make mistakes. A bit like Shaw running towards the ball for the Everton goal instead of covering the space Townsend was running into.
- At this level passing has to be second nature. If its not, you hesitate and overthink, leading to errors. It's only second nature when it's trained to be second nature.
- Passes are more risky than they should because players are not getting themselves in the right place to make or receive. Again, because they're not being told.
- Errors come because passes are made into congested space. It's congested because we're no good at positioning and stretching the play the way we want it. Our players don't know where to be on the pitch.
- its not one or two players, its all of them.
Like Tuchel said with Rio, you have to tell the players where to be and what to do on the pitch in each situation. How they do it is up to them. If you don't give that direction, it becomes too much and they make mistakes. A bit like Shaw running towards the ball for the Everton goal instead of covering the space Townsend was running into.
you do notice that our game is influenced by a third factor ie our opposition?. Rafa is known for playing a low block and then hit with quick counters. He can't care less of losing ball possession against usOle hates possession
We had 70 percent against Everton, btw.
Your takes really are among the most stupid ones on the Caf. I’ll take the infraction to finally state that.
I believe that @NZT-One had lectured you on the subject far better then I could possibly do.
When they play well it's individual brilliance.
When they play badly it's poor coaching.
Caf coaches have spoken.
When they play badly it's poor coaching.
Caf coaches have spoken.
I admit that hate might have been an extreme word to use. However If I am allowed to nitpick then I don't exactly agree with your assessment either. For example we knew that Rafa was going to stick to a very low block and would hit us on counters. Thus a manager whom at least values possession would play VDB or Pogba in CM to improve our passing rate which is key in trying to break such stubborn and defensive sides. Ole on the other hand insisted on McFred which kind of suggest he really can't be bothered about ball possession. His game is so easy to read. On one side of the pitch he tends to rely on a solid defense which is made up of 4 defenders (3 of which are very defensive) and two box to box midfielders who are played very deep. Then on the other side of the pitch he's got 4 top quality and very direct players who can change the course of the game with a stroke of individual brilliance. There's no regista to make sure that the ball transitions from one side to another as swiftly and as efficiently as possible and there's certainly little effort for forward players to work as a team rather then go for that individual act of brilliance.
Don't take me wrong I agree with 99% of what you've said. In reality you've explained our issues in far better words then I did.
I wouldn't say looking at your examples is a side quest. It helps to narrow down and contain the problem, or at least provide some context.
When you say we can't string two passes together, or that Brighton do it better then I think it slightly overeggs the pudding and of course it is hard to justify why any Manchester United footballers should be this poor through sheer lack of ability. In reality I don't think either of these statements are true.
I would say regarding LVGs style of football that while we did keep 70% possession and looked after the football better, we also did it in an extremely cautious and low tempo manner that struggled to offer much incision. It is still impressive LVG did this with some pretty mediocre players (many of which he signed) but it's not quite the point of reference for where we want to be. I would not say LVGs football compares to league winning football that our rivals produce even if the outcome is that yes we look technically better through the coaching. If it's not going to win us anything then it's not as if you get fans throwing their hands in the air and saying "at least we are technical marvels!"
I think what we're actually looking for is more control of the ball and greater ability to play against the press while retaining some of the ability to play forward quickly when the opportunity arises. I think this is a much more challenging brand of football because playing quickly tests the weight of pass and control, and I think pretty much every side has stepped up their pressing game from LVGs tenure. This is where we seem to have more than a few players that routinely make basic errors. You compare AWB and Dalot but there's not much evidence that either is a great technical footballer.
When was the last time we played well?
Some games we do play well that is coaching but you have to admit, there are 80% of our games where we dont play well and get a goal undeserved.
Like I have said, every team needs individual brilliance, but the team has to perform well.
Liverpool for example yesterday, it was coaching mixed with individual brilliance, in those games, in tight games, when both teams are playing well, it comes down to individual brilliance.
Ole relies on it against every team, on all occasions, there is very minimal coaching.
Naive? I’m not saying we’re a Pep side, but clearly Ole doesn’t hate possession. It doesn’t have to be one or the other, you know.
What Salah did yesterday was individual brilliance. What Mane did was a well worked out goal.
They are playing that regularly with James Milner and Jordan Henderson.
We will probably beat the top teams because they give us space. Other teams don't give us the space and we don't know what to do.
As 11101 have said the right time to be in the right space is coached. These are all International players. Not Sunday league players. They can control and pass the ball in the right situation. How to create that situation is what good coaches get them to do.
They are playing that regularly with James Milner and Jordan Henderson.
We will probably beat the top teams because they give us space. Other teams don't give us the space and we don't know what to do.
As 11101 have said the right time to be in the right space is coached. These are all International players. Not Sunday league players. They can control and pass the ball in the right situation. How to create that situation is what good coaches get them to do.
As you admit, he’s not exactly backing that bat-shit notion of yours. Ole might not be too fussed about possession, but hates it? Come on, does everything have to be an extreme? It’s impossible to engage in any real discussion when people are just expressing frustration and barely care to make sure what they’re saying tracks with reality.
Obviously the other team’s tactics matter, but do Everton routinely have less than 30 percent possession? I’m going to guess "no".
A LOT.
And it's usually the same players.
And i don't mean Bruno. His tryhard passes are something else. 8 out of 10 are destined to fail, but the 2 that make it are a goal scoring chance.
I'd say the solution is pretty simple - don't play Fred and Mctominay.
Don't give the ball to AWB in the buildup, he sucks with the ball at his feet. He prefers the opposition players to have the ball.
The two simple changes would make this problem go away.
We've got a team of average passers.
Compare any of them to Mata or Matic for example, their passing is crisp and sharp to feet. Pogba and Bruno can make those hollywood balls but their general passing to feet in limited space is 'okay', nothing more.
McFred is a huge problem and Ole needs to have the humility to back down on this point, and the tactical nous to make adaption to accommodate a different combination.
AWB isn't a problem. His ability on the ball is the least of our concerns at present. And we need his defensive ability on the right as Greenwood is shocking defensively.
Compare any of them to Mata or Matic for example, their passing is crisp and sharp to feet. Pogba and Bruno can make those hollywood balls but their general passing to feet in limited space is 'okay', nothing more.
McFred is a huge problem and Ole needs to have the humility to back down on this point, and the tactical nous to make adaption to accommodate a different combination.
AWB isn't a problem. His ability on the ball is the least of our concerns at present. And we need his defensive ability on the right as Greenwood is shocking defensively.
That's actually false.
Bruno actually has good passing, so does Pogba. I have seen every player, KDB, Salah misplace passes.
The problem is our manager. Bruno has been told to attempt those killer passes, which is why he does it.
A top manager when players can't carry out simple passes will call them out once, twice and then drop them.
United have a manager who believes that workrate is more important than passing in midfield, which is the issue we have at the moment.
Greenwood has been like that, nothing has changed, which is why we bought a RW but the clueless manager doesn't know how to use the players.
We have good players. Players that have shown they can pass well with other clubs or national teams. Personally I see it as a focus and concentration issue. I think this also manifests itself in how poorly we start games, only to then improve dramatically later in games.
Whether you want to call it a coaching issue per se is semantics in my opinion. Ole is the manager/coach and therefore it’s his job to make sure the players are motivated and focussed before kick off. I don’t feel he is doing a good enough job of this as of now.
Whether you want to call it a coaching issue per se is semantics in my opinion. Ole is the manager/coach and therefore it’s his job to make sure the players are motivated and focussed before kick off. I don’t feel he is doing a good enough job of this as of now.
Ok right.
So my take on it is false, but we have a clueless manager and who doesn't know how to use players and he finished 2nd in the league last year. Ye, sure - I think one of us had the more reasoned opinion.
I agree with the bolded part, as I stated in the my original post.
Bruno and Pogba are good passers I agree, I still think Mata and Matic have better technique - not that either should be played. I was literally comparing our best passers of the ball who are starters, to two players in the squad who are easily better.
The OP has explained around 20 times by now that they are not talking about all the passing, which they have already admitted is problematic due to coaching, but literally the most simple passes with players open around them in 5-10 yards radius without under any pressure and still messing it up. Why should footballers with international caps, who have played under multiple managers need to be taught how to do the most basic fundamental things correctly? What the hell are they getting all the money for if can't bring even the most basic technique to the team? If a player like Fred needs a coach to teach him not to pass the ball straight to the opposition, when he is not attempting a difficult through ball, not under any pressure and has multiple options to pass to around him in space and STILL cannot put the correct weight and angle on it - he should not be anywhere near a team playing at the topmost tier in their pyramid.
It's like me hiring a guy with 15 years of experience and then having to teach them how to do a SUM in excel. There are a lot of things obviously that can be made easier by better tactics and the OP has addressed that multiple times but any players who need a particular system to not make kindergarden errors should not be anywhere near the team. Either way the idea of the thread was to address some other issues in our gameplay apart from what has already been repeated a million times in 50 other threads but the caf is so hopelessly tunnel-visioned right now that no matter what they are not capable of looking at anything else but one thing and one thing only.
Thank you for actually listening and focusing on what I was trying to say and not dragging in multiple other unrelated aspects.
Fair enough. Well we saw that from the winner at West Ham, Matic found a pass that McFred would not even see or try, they are programmed to passing sideways and backwards. When the CM's will not try line breaking passes, it makes it too easy to defend.
If the majority of our players are making the same mistakes, then how can you look any further than the leadership? What’s the alternative; that all of our expensive international players can’t actually pass a football?