Slow Build-up play

[sullydnl]

Not at all.

That 2008 would easily be top 2/3 in the league and one of the best sides in Europe.

As bad as this Utd side are at times they have still beaten the likes of Southampton Brigthon and Leeds quite easily. The Utd 2008 side would rip this current Utd team to shreds.

They were an outstanding group that would still finish the league on 80+ points. Simply because they were techically and physically far superior than most teams in the league still are now and had far more intelligent players.

I'm not talking about how well they'd do.

I'm talking about how well they'd do compared to how well they did then, when all the teams around them were less prepared both tactically and in terms of the physicality required to implement those tactics. It should go without saying that they would be less effective (not ineffective) unless they improved in those regards too. Football didn't stop and preserve itself in amber in 2008.

 

[Bestietom]

If Pogba goes next summer which is most likely, we will need a complete midfield ( except Fernandes) next year. We should start by bringing in at least 1 top midfelder in January. It's where we are lacking for some time now, and if we don't address this we have no chance of winning any honours this season.

 

[Womp]

This is arguably, alongside the lack of movement off the ball, the most frustrating part of our play for me. The passing is so slow at times, which is made worse with how predictable our passing is. We make it so easy for defences to get into position/shift across.

 

[Oranges038]

I'm not talking about how well they'd do.

I'm talking about how well they'd do compared to how well they did then, when all the teams around them were less prepared both tactically and in terms of the physicality required to implement those tactics. It should go without saying that they would be less effective (not ineffective) unless they improved in those regards too. Football didn't stop and preserve itself in amber in 2008.

I know that.

They finished on top of 3 teams who all got over 80 points.

To say that they wouldn't be as effective now is conjecture, which is what I am also doing. That team had some of the best players to ever play for Man Utd in it.

They would easily be top two in the league and would wipe the floor with the likes Brighton and Southampton who are the equivalent of Boro and Sunderland back in 2008. They have all amassed in around the 40 point mark as have most teams who finish between 10th and 15th.

 

[#07]

This is arguably, alongside the lack of movement off the ball, the most frustrating part of our play for me. The passing is so slow at times, which is made worse with how predictable our passing is. We make it so easy for defences to get into position/shift across.

We do and its a result of two things:

• The limitation of the players
• The distrust of the players for one another

A lot of the time you will see certain players in possession, like McTominay for example, and they'll see a player running into space but won't try the early ball. Their lack of self-belief in their ability to play the through ball slows us down. Lets the other side regroup.

You also visibly see that some players freeze when they have Fred or Wan-Bissaka as their only passing option. Everything out of our defence goes through Shaw. Varane has taken to regularly switching it to try and find Shaw, even when it goes out of play, rather than playing the ball to Wan-Bissaka.

When your team has players in key positions that their teammates do not trust with the ball at their feet it means they hesitate to release the ball. That extra 2-3 seconds to scan for another option just acts as a pressing trigger, which usually leaves us with even less time and space. Its a vicious cycle.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

Its not laughable. Ole has a top squad and a capable coach can drill his players much better than what we see.

McTominay and Fred aren't shite players. Our midfield options are there, it might not be world class but its daft to suggest THAT'S why we didnt control our game yesterday or prior games. Ole is out there playing a central midfielder on the left, who doesnt even stick left, and he has a 10 who then has to find pockets wide. He has a striker who finds the right winger has cut into central areas to shoot, so he moves wide. And he has a more progressive ball playing midfielder on the bench to play two holding midfielders who aren't really drilled into a familiar pattern of play.

Im sick and tired of this scapegoating of our quality of midfield. They are actually better in quality than what they are given credit for. But if there's no actual positional sense or pattern of play thats being coached then its game over.

I agree with this and the bolded parts in a particular, we have options in midfield, McFred are regulars with their international teams, VdB is an Ajax academy graduate, Pogba & Bruno are quality players, yet, when they play together, you'd think these guys never met before !!!

and then you watch Brantford, who played against a full strength Liverpool, and you can see how well they play as a team, passing, movement, attacking in numbers, and defending in numbers, etc.. all the things you see in a proper team

 

[VP89]

I agree with this and the bolded parts in a particular, we have options in midfield, McFred are regulars with their international teams, VdB is an Ajax academy graduate, Pogba & Bruno are quality players, yet, when they play together, you'd think these guys never met before !!!

and then you watch Brantford, who played against a full strength Liverpool, and you can see how well they play as a team, passing, movement, attacking in numbers, and defending in numbers, etc.. all the things you see in a proper team

That's what a coach does. Neville actually touched on Poch in his weekly podcast (before he spoke about Manchester United).

He said he watched his coaching and could see he taught his midfield in particular how to press systematically and how to rotate, so it all looked like a synchronised unit. Ole does none of this, he never has and never will because that's not his style.

 

[romufc]

That's what a coach does. Neville actually touched on Poch in his weekly podcast (before he spoke about Manchester United).

He said he watched his coaching and could see he taught his midfield in particular how to press systematically and how to rotate, so it all looked like a synchronised unit. Ole does none of this, he never has and never will because that's not his style.

The worst thing is he is so bad in all elements of the game. He cannot coach to press because when we do press, the forwards go and the midfield and defence dont press so one ball gets out the press and we are in trouble.

We cannot contain because we let too many crosses into the box and cant win the second ball.

Lately, our counter attack has been non existent.

We cannot play out the back

We cannot create chances on the regular.

This team is poorly coached in all elements.

 

[Bestietom]

It's down to coaching staff. If they are not doing their job right, then change them.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Shaw-Maguire are probably the biggest culprits of this.

Both of them love to hold onto the ball longer than needed

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We beat Pep's Barca over two legs in 2008 but you think that team would struggle today against Leeds(who we spank on a regular basis) and Brighton?

It's easy to buy into a lot of the noise around football. To listen to those who have to talk about it day after day. Over analysis etc. New terminology that gives the impression of evolution but is really something that's always been around.

But we've currently got a 36 year old up front, Pogba left wing and Greenwood right wing. Coupled with two centre mids that struggle with basic control and passing.

All the sports science in the world won't have Pogba and Ronaldo pressing as hard as Tevez and Rooney. No amount of analytics will have the current midfielders building the play like Carrick and Scholes.

Nothing can make Maguire as quick as Rio.

It's all about players. The best managers are the best not because they're great on a whiteboard. They just get their recruitment right. They put players together that compliment each. We haven't done that for a long time.

We didn't beat Pep's Barcelona in 2008. It was Rijkaard's Barcelona and while they had incredible players, they were dysfunctional that season.

I do think our 2008 team would be very successful today, but it'd have to change and adapt to the current game.

 

[Bestietom]

Still think a top holding midfielder in January could be the change we want.

 

[soapythecat]

Ole says the slow play disappoints, but if his techniques and style of play that he wants to see is not achievable or he can’t coach it, then it’s on him. These players have shown they can play well under other/national coaches so why can’t Ole get a consistent tune out of them.

The way we play is 100% on Ole and his coaching team.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

The worst part is even if we were losing at 85mins we still pass around slowly side way without any urgency.

Miss SAF's days when we throw kitchen sink at opposition during Fergie time. Relentless attack after attck.

 

[Lentwood]

I don't think our build-up play is slow enough, ironically.

If you look at a team who regularly face and overcome low-blocks, City, for example, they regularly make 30/40 passes before they even think about a cross or a shot. Plus, a cross is only made when it has an obvious target i.e. they have pulled the opposition out of position and are looking to hit a player who is free in the middle.

At United, our tactic seems to be to try to get the ball forward quickly, especially to the wide players, who can then try to get at their fullbacks. The trouble with this is, one, it all seems a bit "1999" and two, it means we constantly turnover possession, because we are rushing the ball forward and making high-risk passes.

I personally think that first and foremost, our attacks need to start much deeper. By that I mean we shouldn't even consider moving the ball forward until we have beaten the opposition press. If this means Maguire, Varane, De Gea, Fred and McT being trusted to keep the ball under pressure in our own half, then so be it. If they can't manage it, we need to replace those players, immediately.

Secondly, if and when this tactic fails, and opponents steadfastly refuse to be drawn out OR we get to the edge of the box quickly but the initial attack dies down, we then need to become much more patient and better at probing for gaps. Too often, we will throw in an aimless cross, into a packed penalty area, or we will take some kind of wild pot-shot from distance (Bruno, Rashford, Pogba...looking at you here!)

 

[Eurotrash]

Our first goal of the season is a perfect example of how we should be playing, against low-block teams especially.
It's starting to look like that goal was a bit of a one off, unfortunately.

 

[CR1]

Time to bring Vdb into the starting eleven so that the passing and ball retention improves. My preferred team selection against Villareal:

Ronaldo Cavani
Fernandes
Pogba Vdb (Fred or McTominay)
Telles Varane Lindelof Dalot
Ddg

Having a three-man midfield will also help, as it is the midfield where the team has struggled so far this season.

Pick McTominay if he’s fit, otherwise Fred.

5 subs from:
Greenwood
Sancho
Elanga
Lingard
Matic
Bailly

 

[RDCR07]

Time to bring Vdb into the starting eleven so that the passing and ball retention improves. My preferred team selection against Villareal:

Ronaldo Cavani
Fernandes
Pogba Vdb (Fred or McTominay)
Telles Varane Lindelof Dalot
Ddg

Having a three-man midfield will also help, as it is the midfield where the team has struggled so far this season.

Pick McTominay if he’s fit, otherwise Fred.

5 subs from:
Greenwood
Sancho
Elanga
Lingard
Matic
Bailly

The problem is if we don’t play with width we will shoot ourselves in the foot. If they press, the likes of Pogba, Fred and Mctominay will lose possession easily. So everything going centrally isn’t the best idea. And with Shaw out our fullbacks aren’t the best going forward so it’s easy for Villarreal to just stay in the low block and frustrate us.

 

[Trigg]

Because our coaching is incompetent.

This has been a thing for years, even in Fergie days this was a constant complaint. Think @noodlehair was big on this years ago.

I agree they can be slow at times, especially starting games when they have majority of the ball but this isn’t a Ole thing exclusively.

 

[sugar_kane]

This has been a thing for years, even in Fergie days this was a constant complaint. Think @noodlehair was big on this years ago.

I agree they can be slow at times, especially starting games when they have majority of the ball but this isn’t a Ole thing exclusively.

Didn't you know, literally everything bad stems back to Ole.

Individual mistakes? Bad coaching.

Premier League & International players can't complete a simple 5 yard pass? Bad coaching.

That aside, what I hate about our general play sometimes is you can see a mile off where our players are going to make the pass to, it takes them an extra second to make a decision and more often than not it's the obvious one.

This can probably be attributed to coaching, but I believe it's also down to confidence or ability as well which again is going to be down to the coaching staff but there has to be an element which lies with the quality of the individual.

 

[Nooski]

this!!

you can’t be in a pivot midfield position if you aren’t constantly finding gaps in front of the CBs, to take it on the half turn and play forward, line splitting passes.

keane, Scholes, carrick, even Matic all great at it…

fred and mctominay don’t have the footballing intelligence to do it.

This is something VdB does better than McFred. Also more press-resistant.

 

[CR1]

The problem is if we don’t play with width we will shoot ourselves in the foot. If they press, the likes of Pogba, Fred and Mctominay will lose possession easily. So everything going centrally isn’t the best idea. And with Shaw out our fullbacks aren’t the best going forward so it’s easy for Villarreal to just stay in the low block and frustrate us.

Fair point, but you can always bring on Greenwood/Sancho/Elanga if things aren't working and you need more wide players. Plus, they will either press or sit back, not both. If they press, we have three CMs who would only need to protect the deense and get the ball to Fernandes. If they sit back, we can bring on the subs.

 

[RDCR07]

This has been a thing for years, even in Fergie days this was a constant complaint. Think @noodlehair was big on this years ago.

I agree they can be slow at times, especially starting games when they have majority of the ball but this isn’t a Ole thing exclusively.

It’s obviously not exclusively Oles fault. But it’s his team and he is manager. Hence people will blame him. Look at Chelsea and Lampard. They were shit under him. But when Tuchel took over and told them what to do they grasped it and performed on the pitch. In that case will you blame the players or the coach? Same situation here.

 

[dave1956]

I was coached many many years ago that the best way to beat a team with a solid defence, ( I suppose now is what is called a low block) was to play wide and stretch the defence. The winger would be tasked to take the ball down the wing and get behind the line of defence and then put in a cross. This is a very effective ball either in the air or on the ground as it catches defenders having to deal with the ball whilst facing their own goal, less room for mistakes and limits the areas where they can clear the ball. There are few defenders even in todays modern game who have the skills to deal with this type of ball. It is also easier for the attacking players to attack the ball. However, this requires actual skillful traditional wingers ( Not attacking full backs) who do not drift into the centre of the field. My views given todays tactics and systems are / maybe somewhat old fashioned as I played when the team was set up as a goal keeper, right and left full backs, centre half, left and right wing half, right and left inside forwards, 2 wingers and a centre forward.

 

[HailtotheKing]

I feel as if the opposite is true. What I saw today was a side that are very hurried and in possession. A number of our players play in a fashion where there’s a basketball style shot clock: if they don’t shoot in 15 seconds, then they have to concede possession. So many times we played very direct balls over the top, which is bread and butter to Martinez. Greenwood too was making every dribble with the sole intent of shooting at the end.

We needed a lot more patience and maturity out there today. Keep the ball, make the opposition sweat and work hard defensively, pull defenders out of position and craft a clear chance.

I caught Ronaldo at one point urging his teammates to calm it down. I couldn’t help but agree.

If that’s the case and it certainly looked that way to me, why didn’t we see Ole or McKenna out on the touch line yelling at them to slow it down? Greenwood especially was guilty of this.

 

[RDCR07]

If that’s the case and it certainly looked that way to me, why didn’t we see Ole or McKenna out on the touch line yelling at them to slow it down? Greenwood especially was guilty of this.

Bruno gave the ball away once by playing a hoof pass to Greenwood and Ronaldo told him to calm down and take his time. I’ve never seen Ole or any other staff member yell at players on the touch line.