My opinion on Reus vs Bale is heavily colored by the fact that Reus turned into Maradona everytime he played against us, but i don't think it's quite as crazy as people make it to be
Small hill you'll die on - football discourse
- Thread starter Brightonian
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Liverpool should never have been allowed back into European competition after Heysel.
Also worth remembering he was considered good enough at the time to be a nailed on starter for wc 2014 until he got himself injured. He didn't win it but he certainly wasn't underappreciated at the time. UK didn't even place Bale into it's first team
Read my post again, I said early to mid 2010's. Why are you bringing 2005-2009 into the discussion, no one in their right mind would claim the BL was at the level or better than the EPL during that period. Yaya and Hazard weren't in the Prem during that time as well so why would you bring it up in a discussion about those players?
In case you are wondering, UEFA Coefficients in the period I mentioned:
| Season | England | Germany |
| 2010/2011 | 18.357 | 15.666 |
| 2011/2012 | 15.25 | 15.25 |
| 2012/2013 | 16.428 | 17.928 |
| 2013/2014 | 16.785 | 14.714 |
| 2014/2015 | 13.571 | 15.857 |
| 2015/2016 | 14.25 | 16.428 |
| 2016/2017 | 14.928 | 14.571 |
| Total | 109.569 | 110.414 |
So yes, there wasn't a lot of difference in the quality between the two teams during that period, with periods where the BL was consistently doing better.
For the national team I agree Bales had a bigger impact, though that was also because of Reus' injuries but when it comes to Spurs and Madrid, Reus had plenty of moments for Gladbach and Dortmund.
Bale had those final moments, yes, but again he was at Madrid so he had more chances. Reus played two finals and was very good in the 12/13 final, winning a penalty and creating numerous chances in the first half, the other final was as a sub at the end of his career. If you take out the finals, Reus had plenty of moments in knockout matches. As @giorno mentioned, he was consistently great as Madrid and his 2014 second leg performance was amazing. Almost single handedly turned over a 3-0 deficit, scored two goals and created clear cut chances for Mhiki to miss.
Ultimately, it simply comes down to people not rating the Bundesliga compared to the EPL (no one has an idea how great Reus was in his last season at Gladbach), which is why I also wanted to emphasis that during this period the usual gap between the two leagues did not exist and actually the BL was doing better at times.
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I've rewatched some of our games from back then and I think we were all overly harsh on him. Despite having poor shooting technique, he was decent
Agree with the wider point. 2012-2017 is arguably the longest period in the English game without a great team that captured the imagination.
Side-point, but Toure did plenty though prior to joining City in showcasing his quality at the highest level. I'm not convinced he was always used to the best of his abilities at City in Europe as he was such a 'decisive-bursts' player rather than a 'relentless energy over 90 minutes' player.
It's the stupidest possible way of making an argument about a player!
You've answered your own question by pointing out that Barcelona had Messi AND Xavi AND Iniesta, football is a team game, if you're in a top team then it's a lot easier!
Buffon is widely considered the greatest GK of all time, but won less Champions League's than Jerzy Dudek.
George Best is considered one of the greatest players of all time, yet has only two league titles and one European Cup to his name.
Harry Kane and Alan Shearer are two of England's greatest ever strikers, yet have little trophies to their name in comparison to their talent.
A 31 year old Bruno Fernandes has no league or Champions League medals yet has been United's best player of the last seven years.
It really isn't. Liverpool have been competing with the best primarily because of Salah. Without him at his best, they would not be. Just look at them now. I mean, of course there are examples of great players that haven't won much, but a lot of the time, these players win trophies because they're that good.
Some of your examples are just odd when we're talking in context of Bruno. Buffon is a World Cup winner, 10x time league winner and in total 28 major titles. George Best won Ballon d'Or and 2 league titles. The fact that he won Ballon d'Or without winning the league title that year speaks volumes of his quality. Gerrard was the main man behind one of the greatest comebacks in a football game ever against the best team in the world that won Liverpool the Champions League.
Kane and Shearer are two of England's best strikers ever that are respectively Premier League's number 1 and 2 top scorers of all time.
Your original point just lacks context, because people don't just rate players solely based on titles, but also other achievements and performances. Bruno has had the chance to play in two Europa League finals, and was poor in both of the games. If you don't turn up in finals, why do you deserve to win titles?
Interesting to hear which 5 seasons those would be?
From memory I recall the path of Pirlo's career as broadly:
Starts off as an attacking midfielder > switches to the deeper role at 20-21 > excels and peaks around 2003-2006 with continental and global success > post-World Cup hangover dip > bounces back, winning the CL again, holding a solid level but in an ageing team > moves to Juve in his 30s and plays some of the best football of his career, holding that level until his mid-30s.
05/06 was a poor season for him.
07/08 --> 10/11 were 4 seasons of underperforming, ranging from straight up being poor to playing well within his ceiling.
When he cries I cry. We’re connected that way.You mean injured or do you just really care for Reus's wellbeing?
This is true only in the same way that if you played an infinite number of seasons it is statistically certain that we would one day win it. So I could be our coach, or you, or my dog and it would be true.
Most players/managers are hero or zero nowadays. You rarely get any meaningful discussion or context when discussing a player. It happens on twitter mainly, but it's seeped into every match going fans where one bad performance and suddenly a player is terrible. We've seen it on here after a manager has a decent start at a club or a player 'Why didn't we go for X or Y - look how well he's done'.
That rule change that players are allowed in their own box for goal kicks has killed the entertaintment side of football and following on from this, and something that can't really be quantified is that playing out from the box is a net positive as the amount of times a slightly wayward pass from the keeper into the six will lead to a turnover and a goal can't be outweighed by any potential of beating a press in that zone. I'm not having it, just an ego boost for coaches.
The money in the PL has killed the entertainment of european football. I know english teams are hardly dominant in europe but I'm fed up of seeing the likes of Bournemouth beating AC Milan to the signing of players and top teams in Serie A just having to rely on cast-offs from the PL, and outside of the top 3 in Spain, the standard is awful.
The weird format where 3 teams qualify from a world cup/european championship is the worst rule change in football.
That rule change that players are allowed in their own box for goal kicks has killed the entertaintment side of football and following on from this, and something that can't really be quantified is that playing out from the box is a net positive as the amount of times a slightly wayward pass from the keeper into the six will lead to a turnover and a goal can't be outweighed by any potential of beating a press in that zone. I'm not having it, just an ego boost for coaches.
The money in the PL has killed the entertainment of european football. I know english teams are hardly dominant in europe but I'm fed up of seeing the likes of Bournemouth beating AC Milan to the signing of players and top teams in Serie A just having to rely on cast-offs from the PL, and outside of the top 3 in Spain, the standard is awful.
The weird format where 3 teams qualify from a world cup/european championship is the worst rule change in football.
This is true. A player is either shit or amazing, there is no in-between. You can't just be a good player for a mid-table club. That just means you're too shit for a top club so you're shit.
VAR is shit and i want to remove it. TAR and feather it while we're at it.
xG is dumb shit.
AI is shit shit.
xG is dumb shit.
AI is shit shit.
That Dan Smith challenge and the subsequent injuries that followed stopped Abou Diaby becoming 1 of the best midfielders in the league at that time period, & he could have gone on to be even better than Vieira.
Agree with all of these!
The general fan consensus about players and managers is right 99% of the time.
So many times fans sharing negative opinions about a player or manager (be it ability, attitude, style of play) leaving their team are written off as bitter, and often there will be a honeymoon period where the fans of the new club think they’ve found a hidden gem. But in the long run, the same criticisms tend to arise.
So many times fans sharing negative opinions about a player or manager (be it ability, attitude, style of play) leaving their team are written off as bitter, and often there will be a honeymoon period where the fans of the new club think they’ve found a hidden gem. But in the long run, the same criticisms tend to arise.
This is a good one. Went through the same thing with Tuchel. Wouldn’t believe Dortmund fans who were quite harsh on his character. Turns out they were completely right.
I think so too. In my mind, Amorim's the only manager we've hired post Fergie who I expect to go on ans win one of the big 3/4 european leagues and make a real dash at the CL. Doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision to let him go though, maybe just a bad fit/ bad timing - only time will tell.
Hard disagree
We need less football not more. And we sure as shit need fewer pundits and youtube videos and sports journalists and a constant stream of "analyses".
Guys, maybe this is for the Amorim thread - but how?
What did you see in his managerial game on both man-management and strategic/tactical side that made you think he would eventually be a success?
What did you see in his managerial game on both man-management and strategic/tactical side that made you think he would eventually be a success?
I guess my first post on page 1 already touched upon this but:
5. "System managers" are overrated
"Overrated" in the sense that far too many football fans think that these are the ultimate managers and that every other method is a waste of time/detour/temporary solution. The same people also:
- Rates Pep above Fergie
- Thinks Ancelotti isn't even a particularly good manager
- Started calling Arteta "elite" already 2 years ago (and still do)
- Were opposed to sacking Amorim
- Has on more than one occassion said that Ødegaard or Maddison are better players than Bruno (not only short-term/currently, but in general, mind you!)
5. "System managers" are overrated
"Overrated" in the sense that far too many football fans think that these are the ultimate managers and that every other method is a waste of time/detour/temporary solution. The same people also:
- Rates Pep above Fergie
- Thinks Ancelotti isn't even a particularly good manager
- Started calling Arteta "elite" already 2 years ago (and still do)
- Were opposed to sacking Amorim
- Has on more than one occassion said that Ødegaard or Maddison are better players than Bruno (not only short-term/currently, but in general, mind you!)
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This. The thrill of going from losing to winning with just one goal was something that you'd only get in these cup matches and it was amazing. Roberto's goal against PSG is a good example of that. It's just not the same if you go from losing to drawing.
Without derailing the thread. My belief follows this similar path, if you look at the last few title winners of the EPL.
Pep - A possession-based system designed to break down a low block. Weaknesses can be vulnerable to counterattack.
Klopp Liverpool - Pressing system designed to create chaos and turnovers. Teams gas out towards the end of the season, and year over year, they just never recover. Injuries stack up.
Even now with Arteta, the way they play is praised because they control all 4 phases of play. But they are robotic and cannot score goals sometimes. Even take the Arsenal game vs. us. We KNEW we would get a result at least.
Amorim was a possession-based system like Pep with elements of klopps pressing. Look at his sporting teams in the Champions League and how they beat many big teams with basically a small fraction of the spend that the other clubs had. He had his faults but the idea was there for all to see if given time to finish implementing it. If he still had been here, this summer window would have had us close to challenging, i truely believe.
I want Carrick to do well and see the team have success, but it's just more of the same thing that we have seen for years. There are already troubling signs for me that he has to address. I hope he can fix them and the team continues to find success.
"Professional" fouls to stop a counter attack should be an automatic red.
VAR should punish diving severly wether the ref missed it or not and if not caught during the match should be able to retroactively review and suspend players.
Increasing the amount of teams at the World Cup will be a huge negative and very much lowers the quality of the tournament, which was already not that great with 32 teams qualifying.
VAR should punish diving severly wether the ref missed it or not and if not caught during the match should be able to retroactively review and suspend players.
Increasing the amount of teams at the World Cup will be a huge negative and very much lowers the quality of the tournament, which was already not that great with 32 teams qualifying.
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I don't see that fast development at all. The game has changed in the last few years, as it always has. Where do you see the "fast development"? Most stats are useful if the right context is provided to understand them.
1. Rating performances. "Did nothing wrong" and "work his socks off" is NOT a good performance.
2. VAR. I love it. Best new thing in football in decades.
2. VAR. I love it. Best new thing in football in decades.
Exactly this, that added suspense added another dimension to those matches that can't be replicated.
Hector Moreno deliberately set out to injure Luke Shaw in that Champions League tie against PSV in 2015 and changed the trajectory of Shaw’s career forever. That Moreno didn’t receive a card, subsequently scored and got MoTM makes it all the more infuriating and is a grudge I will carry forever.
Remove the fall/winter international windows in the season after the WC, have the season start 4 weeks later, give it to the players as an extended rest
The hardest of hard agrees. Does my head in. I don’t care you were on the halfway line, it was 3 on 2 before you deliberately kicked him/tried to rip his shirt off.
It shouldn't be red but VAR should be able to intervene to make it a yellow. It has to be enforced. Agree re diving, same rule that VAR can jump in even if only a yellow.
Agreed re World Cup, it's a joke now. A sponsors dream and a fan's nightmare.
I totally get the idea and I would agree in a perfect world with perfect officiating. Since it's not the case, I want the rules of the game to be enforced as objectively and predictably as possible. I really don't like the idea of leaving more and more game-changing decisions to the discretion of referees, which would be room for controversy, biases and inconsistencies. Reason why I don't like the penalty law, especially when it comes to handballs. The rule you're suggesting implies that the refs will have to judge what constitutes a counterattack or not, what represents a deliberate foul or not, whether it was a dangerous situation or not. Btw even the current red cards for DGSCO are often up for debate.
I know some have raised in the past the idea of an "orange card" (or whatever we'd call it) between red and yellow that would result to a temporary sending off of the player (10-15mn?). I think the cynical fouls you're taking about would be the typical situations that should be subject to such bookings. That's a fair middle ground for me.
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Five substitutions is too many and should never have been allowed to happen.
Can't put it better myself
We should never have changed to three points for a win.
Disagree, the motive for changing it to 3 points was to encourage teams to take more risks for more reward
Some people just can't appreciate the beauty of two teams carefully choreographing a chanceless nil-nil.