Small hill you'll die on - football discourse

Oh oh, i know i know a good one:

Iniesta was a better footballer than Zidane, whos the most overrated player ever, ridiculously added to "bests ever" and "god tier" lists over and over. He was world class, and elegant, but somehow Iniesta isn't included in the same discussions
 
Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
I've never thought conceding a penalty was a harsh enough punishment for a player using his hands on the goal-line in a last gasp effort to stop an obvious goal. It just encourages the most blatant cheating being worth a risk in high stakes games.

Especially now that we have something like var, it should be just be a red card and the goal should be awarded unless the replay clearly shows it wasn't going in anyway. There isn't enough ambiguity involved in 99% of these situations for anything else worthwhile.
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I’ve seen this opinion afew times in the past and I really firmly disagree. Sometimes there are just occasions where you have to take one for the team. Whether that’s a last ditch foul or a handball on the line it’s all fair game in sport. Whilst I’m not his biggest fan Suarez was vilified for his handball on the line (amongst other things), but to me it was pretty heroic and a moment in football cinema.

The reality is that if you handle the ball on the line it’s a red card and a penalty. In the professional game you’d expect a penalty to be converted 75-85% of the time and the other team is then playing a man down. That’s a monumental advantage however people want to spin it. It only becomes contentious (like the Suarez case) once the penalty is missed, or in the event the 11 man team can’t make use of that advantage. For me it’s all part and parcel of the game.
 
Ibi Dreams said:
Pro Evo has always been a better football game than FIFA, except for a brief period from 2010 to 2013/4. It's criminal it doesn't get the respect it deserves
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it wasn't brief at all. From about 07 FIFA has was the better game for well over a decade.
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
I’ve seen this opinion afew times in the past and I really firmly disagree. Sometimes there are just occasions where you have to take one for the team. Whether that’s a last ditch foul or a handball on the line it’s all fair game in sport. Whilst I’m not his biggest fan Suarez was vilified for his handball on the line (amongst other things), but to me it was pretty heroic and a moment in football cinema.

The reality is that if you handle the ball on the line it’s a red card and a penalty. In the professional game you’d expect a penalty to be converted 75-85% of the time and the other team is then playing a man down. That’s a monumental advantage however people want to spin it. It only becomes contentious (like the Suarez case) once the penalty is missed, or in the event the 11 man team can’t make use of that advantage. For me it’s all part and parcel of the game.
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I get that but I just can't find the idea of football cinema or some fans only complaining/caring after a penalty miss to be convincing enough counter about why a penalty/red is actually enough punishment for punching something off the goaline. There's nothing heroic about it to me and I don't want to see egregious cheating that ruins the result having any chance of being rewarded when there is sufficient tech to avoid it now.

A penalty makes sense as a fitting punishment for the fouls in the box where there is actually remaining variability in how the play might have finished; they statistically had a good chance of some sort of success before being fouled so they get compensated with a scenario (the penalty) which also offers a strong chance of success. Not perfect, but it's common sense. But when someone has already executed, beat the keeper, and the angles of the replay show no other result than a 100% goal being denied, it's a different story and you're only rewarding the cheater by then forcing a penalty on the other team..... Get the player who did it sent off, count the obvious goal, and on we go.
 
hellhunter said:
Yaya was a force in the league when United and Chelsea reached CL finals in 2011 and 2012. Same for Kompany. Do think the league went through some barren years afterwards, but both showed they're elite players while the competition was still strong
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I agree, the standard of football has dropped from around 2015 and its continuing to drop.

The depth across Europe amd the world at every level is falling.

There's no single great international team and there hasnt been one in probably 10 years.
 
Nyland said:
My hill to die on is that the avalanche of stats we now get give too many fans the false impression that what they contribute to discussion is interesting. It's become like that scene out of the Office where David Brent is trying to show off to that guy who said he won a few Gold Runs on Blockbusters. Just awkwardly siding over to people discussing the match like human beings based on things they seen: "Who? Him? Facts are he's got 84% passing accuracy in the previous 6 games. More assists with his left foot this season than any other player in the top 6..."

Stats are meaningless trivia. A player can be awful and get an assist. They can be terrible and get a goal. They can give away the ball with every single pass and still win 100% of aerial battles. They can cover more ground on the field than any other player on the pitch and screw up every time he gets the ball. He can score a penalty but miss 6 clear chances in open play in a game his team loses 3-1 - yet all that matters to the stat freaks is that penalty is a "goal scored, which is a stat so that's good, hummm?"

Dreadful stuff
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I think the assist stat is the most useless stat in football. A player could beat 5 players do a 40 yard pass through the lines and the receiver does a 5 yard pass to the goalscorer and he gets the assist and the person who made it possible by beating 5 men and putting the ball through gets no stat credit
 
SalfordRed18 said:
it wasn't brief at all. From about 07 FIFA has was the better game for well over a decade.
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From 2014/15 till 21 PES was again comfortably better. Basically PES at its core was always miles better as a footballer game unless they couldn’t be bothered which is sadly the case since the e football nonsense. FIFA is an arcade game where you skate on grass in between playing cards.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
From 2014/15 till 21 PES was again comfortably better. Basically PES at its core was always miles better as a footballer game unless they couldn’t be bothered which is sadly the case since the e football nonsense. FIFA is an arcade game where you skate on grass in between playing cards.
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Disagree with literally everything you just said there, especially the arcade bit. It's the other way around (pretty certain their was literally a pro Evo arcade version too), but it's 2.15am where I am, I can't be arsed to argue.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
From 2014/15 till 21 PES was again comfortably better. Basically PES at its core was always miles better as a footballer game unless they couldn’t be bothered which is sadly the case since the e football nonsense. FIFA is an arcade game where you skate on grass in between playing cards.
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Didn’t FIFA at 1 point have it where you could shoot boomers from 40yds out that could bend and knuckle in ridiculous movements?
 
SalfordRed18 said:
it wasn't brief at all. From about 07 FIFA has was the better game for well over a decade.
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pro evo 6 was the pinnacle (miles better than five) but lost itself chasing fifa's angle (licensing, exaggerated players, online etc).

Even now, it's probably better than fifa (or whatever it's called) but is more concerned with being an 'online casino for kids'.

If it just concentrated on gameplay and not sheer Adrianoesque nonsense, it'd do rightly.

Anything unlicensed can just be edited.
 
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giorno said:
Half the BvB first team being injured plus Mhkitaryan missing an open goal, plus Ramos scoring in injury time in '14, a penalty not given to Roma plus Dzeko and Salah combining to miss more sitters than previously thought possible, plus Pepe escaping a clear red card against City, plus Ramos offside goal in '16, '17 we just rolled over everyone even though refereeing mistakes made the Bayern tie closer than it should have been - Vidal was indeed wrongly sent off in the 85th minute, when in fact he should have been off in the 5th - and then '18 was epic. In order: Kroos offside by 2 meters, pulls a Robben- style swan dive, wins penalty, followed by Sergio "Casillas" Ramos pulling off a spectacular save from a point blank Rabiot open goal shot - ref somehow missed it. Cuadrado scythed down in the box on the last play of the first leg against Juventus, Cakir ignores it(also from that game, Dybala and Kroos committing the exact same foul in the space of 5 minutes, only Dybala getting carded for it. He then got sent off for a dive later on, good call that). Stonewall penalty for Bayern on the first play of SF, ignored. Miraculously, Bayern manage to miss even more sitters than Roma did in '16! Stonewall penalty for Bayern for Marcelo handball in the second leg, ignored. Stonewall penalty for Bayern in the second leg - Ramos flattens Lewandowski - ignored again. That's 3 stonewall penalties denied, plus there was potentially another one too

And then of course, Ramos breaks Salah, then Ramos breaks Karius in the final

I loved that run :lol: :lol: :lol:
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It was a very fun run. They were great games to watch imo.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Disagree with literally everything you just said there, especially the arcade bit. It's the other way around (pretty certain their was literally a pro Evo arcade version too), but it's 2.15am where I am, I can't be arsed to argue.
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FIFA is the better game, but PES gameplay has always been light years more realistic than FIFA. FIFA is without doubt an arcade version, doesn’t mean it’s not fun, but there’s zero weight behind the players and actions. As a fifa player for the past 15 years, having played afew pes games recently, the difference in force behind challenges etc is just so dramatically different.
 
Free kick duty should be rotated. If the last 27 direct free kicks from just outside the area haven’t gone in and most haven’t even troubled the goalkeeper then you can get in the bin with grabbing the ball every time and placing it thinking that you’re the “specialist” taker.

Not lead because opposition players learn and study what someone who always takes them is likely to do. If randomly Maguire or someone who never took their team’s free kicks was standing over the ball we’d at least have element of surprise

If they’re regularly prolific then keep them on but “they haven’t scored from a free kick since April 2022” then sorry but why is same guy still taking them?
 
I hate my team taking long range shots.

If it's right outside the box, 19, 20 yards, fair enough. And occasionally it's just set up so perfectly to hit one.

But almost all of them are a waste of an attack. It's an admission you don't have a clue how to create clear chances so you resort to potshots.
 
DrRodo said:
Oh oh, i know i know a good one:

Iniesta was a better footballer than Zidane, whos the most overrated player ever, ridiculously added to "bests ever" and "god tier" lists over and over. He was world class, and elegant, but somehow Iniesta isn't included in the same discussions
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Iniesta was a wonderful footballer, but he was also a 1 in 12 goalscorer as an attacking midfielder in one of the most dominant teams ever.

Now he did a lot more that score goals of course but it is still a shocking record for a guy of his talent.
 
Imo Zidane, xavi and iniesta are the best mf of the last 20 or so years. My feeling is xavi and iniesta are better, but Zidane was never managed by guardiola.
 
Its time for me to get weird and cryptic. God may be real and madrid are his team and not in a good way. They get a lot of luck their way. Also they won cl number 13 (unlucky 13) in the year 2018 (18 is three 6s, as in 666). Also united, the red devil's, win the treble, perhaps their most significant season in the year 1999. 999 upside down is 666. Creepy stuff!!! This is the type of thing that will get some people thinking and others to think it's just nonsense or coincidence. Perhaps this should be in the weird feelings of football thread. There is also a line from the bible or religious text that says the devil appears in white or something like that.
 
Getting rid of replays in the FA Cup was the right decision and should have happened earlier.
Irrational. said:
Hector Moreno deliberately set out to injure Luke Shaw in that Champions League tie against PSV in 2015 and changed the trajectory of Shaw’s career forever. That Moreno didn’t receive a card, subsequently scored and got MoTM makes it all the more infuriating and is a grudge I will carry forever.
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Agreed. I’m still angry about that.
AndyMUFC said:
The influence of managers can often be overestimated. If the players don't have it in them in the first place then you're not getting anywhere.
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This. You can’t polish a turd.
ItDoesntEvenMata said:
Scott McTominay was never good enough for the club and it was the right decision to sell him
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Seconded. I’m glad he’s found his level at Napoli.
 
Defenders shouldn’t be allowed to celebrate tackles. They never used to and the world was a better place.
 
Francesco Totti is overrated.

As are all "great" players that stayed at their boyhood club forever.

Note: if you disagree you rate Steven Gerrard.
 
Proliferation of stats in football are both the best and worst things to happen.
Positives are that it does open a whole new avenue to value players who would've otherwise been overlooked by the 'eye test'. Feel like Bruno is a big winner here because IMHO his stock rises the more you delve into the numbers
Negatives are that stats have been co-opted by fans who are too lazy to watch and learn about about football but just want a one-size fits all easy number to refer to. Kills the credibility of different metrics and I just can't stand it. I also think the resistance to stats gets a bit silly as well. Like it seems irrational to completely write off the use of stats just because certain metrics (cough cough xG) are misused.

Hopefully there is a middle ground that can be found in football where we have useful metrics being used in the right context which ultimately enhances the viewing experience and discourse around football IE lets bin off using xG as a raw number to summarise a game and use a xG graph over the 90 mins so we can get the context of where chances were made and what game state they happened in
 
The idea that every goalkeeper, and even every opposing team, raises their game against just us and nobody else is just the most bizarre paranoia. Every matchday thread, every week, there'll be something like "watch [opposing GK] turn into prime Oliver Kahn" or something, when really it's just a Premier League goalkeeper doing his job. Even the worst starting keepers in the league are still elite goalkeepers. It's like we're expecting them to dive out of the way of the ball to let it in, otherwise they've got it in for us.

A lot of teams in this league are good, and well coached. Whereas we are a moments team. Our best players can spend the whole game looking hopeless, except for a couple of moments where they pull it off. Those well coached teams keep making us look poor, and it's been the case for a while, under various managers. They are often just better than us in certain areas, and sometimes our moments are enough to win the game.
 
SilentWitness said:
Moyes, despite being an irritating git and playing shite football for the majority of his career, is the best mid-table manager there has ever been.
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Roy Hodgson?

Both of them are similar. Brilliant for mid table level clubs, but not cut out for the top jobs.
 
KirkDuyt said:
Francesco Totti is overrated.

As are all "great" players that stayed at their boyhood club forever.

Note: if you disagree you rate Steven Gerrard.
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Unlike Scholes, Giggs and Gary Neville, Gerrard didn't stay at his boyhood club forever.
Steven Gerrard inspires LA Galaxy comeback on debut against ...
 
People will complain that modern footballers are system robots but they think every old maestro who wasn't a system robot was "overrated"
 
Goalkeepers should be allowed to do a "Harald Schumacher" on any attacker who impedes their path inside the small box on set pieces
 
The more I watch current football, the more I think where we're heading might make ETH's donut formation seem normal.

Bunch of athletes bombing up and down the pitch, no ideas about moving the ball through the midfield but playing based off the fact that probability prefers long balls + the chaos of second balls/knock downs combined with high pressing to create better xG chances. Guys will talk about players like Soucek, Joelinton, McT and Fellaini being world class.
 
Keane and Vieira to this day are still the most dominant midfielders the league has had (Kante and Rodri exceptional too.) Scholes, Lampard, Toure and Gerrard were greats but not dominant in the same way I feel.
 
Saka is hugely overrated, he's a Palace level player hyped to be a Real Madrid galactico.

Drogba is also overrated and a couple of big goals has elevated the memory of him as a player.

*Runs for cover
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Saka is hugely overrated, he's a Palace level player hyped to be a Real Madrid galactico.

Drogba is also overrated and a couple of big goals has elevated the memory of him as a player.

*Runs for cover
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Agree about Saka, disagree about Drogba who I actually think is massively underrated these days.

Stats being the metric to judge a striker these days really downplays what a Drogba, Hughes or Cantona brought to their team.
 
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