Smalling and Maguire

Mcking

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Tough one, Smalling was an excellent defender with us. Lindelof and Bailly doesn't come close in terms of defensive ability. He was very strong physically, rarely beaten on the ground, dominant in the air, quick recovery pace and cleared a lot of set pieces. He was very good at sensing danger and coming across to cover for his partners. I think he is so complete that he'd form at least a decent partnership with any CB - Maguire would be no exception, and I thought he was one of the best CBs around when he was with us.
But we look on the verge of building something special without him, and I think a combination of him and Wan-Bissaka on the right side would be overkill, seeing their difficult techniques with the ball. He is over 30 now and is having success with another team in another league. I'd let him make his deal with Roma permanent if they want to, and stick with Bailly and Lindelof for a year if we don't have the means to bring in a new CB going into next season.
As for a Maguire-Smalling combo being good enough, I think it is if Smalling is still good. Maguire has significant weaknesses in turn of pace, speed and concentration, but Smalling could easily compensate for that if he's still got it.
 

AltiUn

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Smalling needs to move on.
Agreed, Solskjaer obviously prefers CBs who're comfortable on the ball, hence why Smalling isn't here anymore.

The defence did make a few mistakes in the first half of the season but that's bound to happen when the defensive unit is unfamiliar with one another. We essentially added 3 defenders to the first team this season in Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and Williams, mistakes were a natural consequence of that.
 

fps

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Clearly Smalling isn't the guy and it goes deeper than what happens on the pitch.
 

poleglass red

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Oh that's not what I meant. I mean both Lindelof and Baily don't fill me with much confidence similar to the other defenders mentioned. I also can't for the life of me understand why he's called Iceman for someone that panics underpressure
compared to the others he's decent on the ball, but he isn't the suave ball playing centre half a lot of us were expecting. I hadn't seen him play prior to us, so don't know if he ever was that type, but the media and people on here over played that Iceman tag. Maybe he was a top gun fan. If we upgrade in that area, I'd want a defender comfortable on the ball but with pace. Maguire and Lindelof as a pair aren't bad, but very similiar in that they lack pace.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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People will ignore this I'm afraid as it doesn't suit the forum's narrative. Lindelof is a very good player, who like any player has weaknesses but his strengths get hugely undervalued. Fortunately, Ole has backed him and been rewarded with an excellent defense which will only get better, we wouldn't have got this far with Smalling.
 

Mcking

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People will ignore this I'm afraid as it doesn't suit the forum's narrative. Lindelof is a very good player, who like any player has weaknesses but his strengths get hugely undervalued. Fortunately, Ole has backed him and been rewarded with an excellent defense which will only get better, we wouldn't have got this far with Smalling.
It's misleading. Those are DIRECT errors leading to a shot on target I think.
 

RikRuud

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Unfortunately this.

With LVG and Mou, he fought for his places and arguably won in the end for many seasons, but gave up in the latest with Ole.

I was hoping for him to stay and fight to get a place, I mean seriously he should know by now the CB department is fecked with constant players missing with injuries, only Lindelof and him who tend to returned back quickly play the game a lot. The other 3 are often mia. Then Maguire came in, and Tuanzebe is back.

I think he just don't have any confidence in Ole at all. No report stated Ole even tried to convince him. There are players where Ole goes to such lengths convincing and there are players he just don't care at all except for nice lip services given in the press. I also believe it has to do with Maguire arriving and Smalling knows his omission from the England NT has to do with the idea that he doesn't have any ball-playing ability, and perhaps fear Ole will do the same. He also had a 2+ years of being spoken in public by two managers (Mou and Gareth) about his lack of skills. It must've hurt.

Alas.
Who knows what was said by Ole to Smalling but if the conversation they had resulted in Smalling packing up and leaving. Part of me thinks he may have joined Roma in order to put himself in the picture for a potential England callup for the Euros. Alas, the current situation has made that impossible.
 

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I'm sure most of us United fans will find this insulting, but I don't think it's a case of whether we want Smalling back, it's a case of whether he wants to come back. Given his reliability, injury wise, I would be happy to keep Smalling and ditch Jones and Bailly, to Tuanzebe's advantage too.
 

Luke1995

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I'd rather have the board signing another really good defender like Maguire. We can't count on Jones to stay fit and I don't trust Lindelof.

Or maybe, Tuanzebe turns into a really good one.
 

bosnian_red

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By far our best CB pairing and most suited to each other. Not enough to win the league, because we are competing with Pep and Klopp so it's not strictly a player based thing. We are competing with 2 world class 11s with quality depth with the 2 best coaches in the world. Our goal is to time our team peaking with Liverpool/City declining (whether that's Pep and Klopp leaving or natural declines). Hence why we're mostly young right now.
 

Johnson Yip

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People are overrating ball-playing defender (thanks to Pep). Also, now that we already have a decent ball-playing defender in Maguire, I don't see why we cannot accommodate Smalling as the solid pure defensive partner to him. There is always only 1 fecking football on the field, so why we need 2 ball-playing defenders as a combination??
 

Brightonian

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Just because people believe we should stick with the Maguire-Lindelof partnership (a perfectly reasonable view) doesn't mean we should be selling Smalling. We should be moving on Jones and Rojo and keeping Smalling to make up a set of strong options.
 

Dan_F

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Just because people believe we should stick with the Maguire-Lindelof partnership (a perfectly reasonable view) doesn't mean we should be selling Smalling. We should be moving on Jones and Rojo and keeping Smalling to make up a set of strong options.
I agree, but I don’t think Smalling will stay to be back up. It’s a real shame Tuanzebe has been injured so much this season, i was really expecting him to take Lindelofs place by the end of the year.
 

devilish

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I think Smalling should return. He's got pace which makes him a great partner for Maguire, he's great aerial wise and he's physically strong which makes him our only alternative to Maguire. Ah and he isn't as injury prone as Tuanzebe, Bailly and Jones are. Let's get of the crocks first.
 

devilish

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I agree, but I don’t think Smalling will stay to be back up. It’s a real shame Tuanzebe has been injured so much this season, i was really expecting him to take Lindelofs place by the end of the year.
Why should we doom him to a back up role? Why can't he fight for a first team place? FFS we've got Lindelof as Maguire's partner not Baresi, Rio or Stam. I've yet to figure out what the Swede's strengths are apart from maybe his overrated ball playing ability

So I'd say let indelof and the guy who keep being hyped while sitting in the treatment room actually fight for their first team place for once.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Smalling doesn't want to be a back up which is why he left and Ole wants to play out from the back which is why Ole didn't mind not including him.
 

Brightonian

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I agree, but I don’t think Smalling will stay to be back up. It’s a real shame Tuanzebe has been injured so much this season, i was really expecting him to take Lindelofs place by the end of the year.
He's contracted until 2022 and no doubt being reimbursed handsomely for it. I imagine he's likely to be happy to stay and 'fight for a place' rather than being offloaded to an uncertain future at the age of 30. But even if he isn't he can suck it up as far as I'm concerned. It's not as if Lindelof is some unassailable colossus who will never miss a game.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Did Tuanzebe have the same bad injury record in Villa? Why do people say he's injury prone if it's only this season
 

11101

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Why do our fans always cling on to these hopes that past it or underperforming players will suddenly become good enough for us?

Smalling had 9 years to show he was good enough here. He's been decent but at the top level it's just too obvious he missed the fundamental basics of technique and game reading he would have learned in a PL academy.

We need more time to see if Lindelof or Bailly are the answer, but if they're not we need to look elsewhere. We already know Smalling isn't.
 

hmchan

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The obsession of ball playing ability in defenders nowadays is a bit over. Defensive ability is always the primary attribute you look when comparing defenders. Ball playing ability is just a bonus and should only be considered if both players are equally good defensively.

Imo Smalling is a quality defender. He is quick on his feet, good in the air, consistent and not injury prone. He is comfortable in dealing with a target man or a pacy striker, and he has kept many top forwards in his pocket such as Kane and Suarez. He is much better than the defenders we have and is at least comparable to Maguire.

I understand Ole wants to play out from the back, but we can barely benefit from it. How many goals do we score from that? More often than not, we give the ball away unnecessarily in dangerous positions leading to opposition's counter attack.

The idea of playing out from the back is to keep the ball and bring the ball forward safely. However, with the lack of quality in midfield and movement off the ball up front, we can hardly achieve such purpose. Instead, we often swing the ball forward eventually, making the whole philosophy meaningless.

As we all know, we are more threatening playing direct football. Playing out from the back is just overcomplicating things and sometimes backfiring us. England paid a heavy price in Nations League and I'm reluctant to see United do the same.
 

Nickelodeon

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I'm sorry but I have to take this stat with a pinch of salt. I can clearly remember a screw-up from Lindelof against Crystal Palace which lead to Jordan Ayew's goal. Is this stat different from "Error leading to goal" because it mentions the shot being taken immediately. Either way, it definitely lead to the goal.

I'm not saying that Lindelof and Maguire haven't done well, particularly in the latest run of fixtures, but stats like these seem incredibly misleading.
 

gajender

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The obsession of ball playing ability in defenders nowadays is a bit over. Defensive ability is always the primary attribute you look when comparing defenders. Ball playing ability is just a bonus and should only be considered if both players are equally good defensively.

Imo Smalling is a quality defender. He is quick on his feet, good in the air, consistent and not injury prone. He is comfortable in dealing with a target man or a pacy striker, and he has kept many top forwards in his pocket such as Kane and Suarez. He is much better than the defenders we have and is at least comparable to Maguire.

I understand Ole wants to play out from the back, but we can barely benefit from it. How many goals do we score from that? More often than not, we give the ball away unnecessarily in dangerous positions leading to opposition's counter attack.

The idea of playing out from the back is to keep the ball and bring the ball forward safely. However, with the lack of quality in midfield and movement off the ball up front, we can hardly achieve such purpose. Instead, we often swing the ball forward eventually, making the whole philosophy meaningless.

As we all know, we are more threatening playing direct football. Playing out from the back is just overcomplicating things and sometimes backfiring us. England paid a heavy price in Nations League and I'm reluctant to see United do the same.
No he isn't he is slightly above average defender who lacks attributes to be regular starter at a top club if he is fine being a backup then it's ok otherwise he isn't any big loss .
 

Morpheus 7

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Squad player at best for certain games. Fans need to think of the future now. Stop clinging on to the past and strive for better players coming in. He's not good enough on the ball and been here ages. I would be getting rid of Jones and Rojo, need better quality if we want to be back at the top. If Smalling is happy to play limited games as rotation fine, if not sell him abroad.
 

Nikelesh Reddy

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1. Would they be our best CB pairing?
2. Would they be good enough to win the league/compete in the CL with?
Nope,not good enough to win a title...I think we need an upgrade on players like Lindelof/Smalling to win the league again...
 

jackal&hyde

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1)No and 2)No

Not good enough. Major liability in possession and greatly over stated defensive capability.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I think Ole is very keen on playing from the back. Imagine Guardiola making a choice to pair one of Lindelof Baily or Smalling with Maguire. He's not going to pick Smalling because he doesn't suit his system and it's not like Smalling is alot better than the other options. He'll probably play Lindelof who suits his system and is not a massive drop in quality from Smalling
 

reddevil80

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My main issue with Smalling was the fact that he never, ever tried to leave the pitch with just his own shirt. Every game he was trying to pull an opponents top off them and, in today's game, the slightest touch and var will be all over you for a penalty. I'm afraid we would give away more penalties than we have attained this season.

With more positive talks and contact with the likes of Koulibaly, or getting Bailly and Tuanzebe fit, these are who I think we should looking at to partner Maguire if Lindelof becomes injured or unavailable.
 

Bobski

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My main issue with Smalling was the fact that he never, ever tried to leave the pitch with just his own shirt. Every game he was trying to pull an opponents top off them and, in today's game, the slightest touch and var will be all over you for a penalty. I'm afraid we would give away more penalties than we have attained this season.

With more positive talks and contact with the likes of Koulibaly, or getting Bailly and Tuanzebe fit, these are who I think we should looking at to partner Maguire if Lindelof becomes injured or unavailable.
The shirt pulling is just a tired cliche by now. Smalling gave away a couple of pens this year, both for handball, one a phantom call, the other a clumsy piece of defending leading to a probably unintentional but too obvious contact. Do people actually watch what other defenders do at set pieces? Shirt pulling was still a major part of defending in the PL this year(as it has been for every year I can remember) very few pens were given for it, it was not the point of focus many were certain it would be.
 

James Peril

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History shows us that teams can win trophies even with a few mediocre players in the team. Jesus, even Liverpool are storming the league with Henderson in an important role. As long as we have winners everywhere else, both are good enough to join the party - but none are remotely close to being world-class. Both are great to have in the box, both have glaring weaknesses. Smalling is poor on the ball, Maguire is slow as shit (and dare I say clumsy) - both very important aspects in modern football. Lindelöf, to throw him into the ring, is also not good enough to start for Man Utd. That’s the version trying to win the league of course, not the one having Solskjær at the helm fighting with Sheffield United for 5th.
 

Jaqen H'ghar

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1) Probably
2) Yes

Since LvG, and until the arrival of Maguire, Smalling has been the better half of the different CB pairings he's played in.

His qualities compliment Maguire, and vice versa.
 

Rampant Red Rodriguez

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Good professional, good defender but from the last era of football. We now have some of the best ball playing CBs in the game and Smalling just does not play that way. He's like a SPL Campbell, a big unit and will clear the cross ball away from his headder, but he's not a ball playing cb which is the current in vogue of football. Smalling is a good defender from another era.
 

Ekeke

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Since I cant talk about it in the AWB performance thread, this is imo the biggest difference to our defence and defensive record this season



We're far more secure with AWB at RB over Young and almost every winger who comes up against AWB will have their toughest game of the season.

De Gea has made 2.6 saves this season compared to 3.2 last season, but the number of shots in the 6 yard box and penalty area are almost identical to last season. The main difference is that our opponents had 1.5 shots saved by De Gea from outside the box (per 90 mins) last season to 1 shot this season. There's multiple reasons why opponents were shooting more often from range last season compared to this season, but I think its fair to say that AWB taking the ball off players down his side or making a block or tackle to stop them shooting is among those reasons.

Smalling would have far more help with AWB at RB and Maguire next to him than he's had in his United career since Rio left when he was a youngster. Completely different situation to last season.

I still suspect we'll sell Smalling and buy a new CB this summer. But I think if Smalling did play he'd be a very solid CB and levels above Lindelof.
 

MattofManchester

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Smalling is not the best. But I still would rate him over Bailly any day.
I can't see what anybody is looking at in Bailly. Yes, when he arrived, he was decent. That was almost 3 years ago.
Since then, he's spent most of the time injured, or being a massive calamity to the extent of Jones in defence, and this "Oops, I lost my brain" moments seem regularly forgotten by our fans.

For the pure fact that he is unreliable and represents a risk, as he could just end up being injured again or a walking calamity, in so many ways, I'd be willing to let him go first before Smalling.

As for Lindelof, I'm of the opinion that he's not as bad as people think he is. I think he is actually a very, very good defender. And I've not seen him really being manhandled except when he came up against Vestergaard(Who wouldn't get manhandled by that giant Neanderthal).
I think Lindelof's issue seems to be an unwillingness to assert himself physically on someone else. He reminds me of that kid on the playground who tried not to hurt anyone, and got toyed with because of it. To me, that's like Lindelof. A little reluctant to impose himself on anyone for some odd reason.
 
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Champagne Football

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Smalling is an Everton level player. It would be mad to bring him back.

I think we'll sign Joe Rodon and hope that he can gradually replace Lindelof, who is too weak with aerial ability to be our long term solution.
 

Adam-Utd

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Smalling is not the best. But I still would rate him over Bailly any day.
I can't see what anybody is looking at in Bailly. Yes, when he arrived, he was decent. That was almost 3 years ago.
Since then, he's spent most of the time injured, or being a massive calamity to the extent of Jones in defence, and this "Oops, I lost my brain" moments seem regularly forgotten by our fans.

For the pure fact that he is unreliable and represents a risk, as he could just end up being injured again or a walking calamity, in so many ways, I'd be willing to let him go first before Smalling.

As for Lindelof, I'm of the opinion that he's not as bad as people think he is. I think he is actually a very, very good defender. And I've not seen him really being manhandled except when he came up against Vestergaard(Who wouldn't get manhandled by that giant Neanderthal).
I think Lindelof's issue seems to be an unwillingness to assert himself physically on someone else. He reminds me of that kid on the playground who tried not to hurt anyone, and got toyed with because of it. To me, that's like Lindelof. A little reluctant to impose himself on anyone for some odd reason.
In the last few games alone since his return from injury he's been very good.

If you can't see that then that's more of a you thing i'm afraid. Yes Bailly has an error in him, but his highest level is very strong. He's very good on the ball and his athleticism is something our others don't have.
 

hmchan

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In the last few games alone since his return from injury he's been very good.

If you can't see that then that's more of a you thing i'm afraid. Yes Bailly has an error in him, but his highest level is very strong. He's very good on the ball and his athleticism is something our others don't have.
Physique and fitness are very important to Bailly. When he's fit, he's able to make up for his own mistakes and recovers from his poor positioning. When he's not, however, it would look terrible and disastrous. If he could stay away from injuries, he's a decent option for us.
 
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