Smalling loan watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
If he did come back, him and Maguire would be a solid partnership, but it's time to move on, for him and us I think. He would come back and just be lumped with Jones again as a chuckle brother by fans here as soon as he made his first mistake. And from our side, hes not getting any younger, moving him Jones and Rojo on would clear a lot of squad space and wage up.
Could see him ending up at Arsenal if Roma done make it permanent.
Could see him ending up at Arsenal if Roma done make it permanent.
Smalling has never been a bad player but I think now would be a good time to cash in. He clearly isn't viewed as first choice by Ole and he will still have the same criticisms levelled at him by our fans.
If we can get somewhere in the ballpark of £20m I think that would be a good deal for all parties. Smalling has proven he can do well elsewhere and I'm sure there would be quite a few clubs interested.
If we can get somewhere in the ballpark of £20m I think that would be a good deal for all parties. Smalling has proven he can do well elsewhere and I'm sure there would be quite a few clubs interested.
What a joke
"more together", less points, way down the table, less goals scored, more conceded.
Because we've had 6 better games, the whole season is great. Sure. You have the memory of a goldfish.
Not the thread for this, but 2 seasons ago, coming second was 'false'. The season itself was pretty much over by December (or about then) when we lost to City at home. We didnt come second to a better team, we came first ahead of a bunch of other equally as bad teams.
This is also why using stats again and again can be very false / misleading. Two seasons ago, the number of cleansheets or goals we conceded wasnt because of a strong defence, but because DDG was called up on and making worldies. Meanwhile last season and this hes been making some mistakes. (Heck one of the few goals weve recently conceded has been due to him booting the ball of a player). That shouldnt go against the defence, (but will stat wise). Likewise DDG saving 30 or whatever shots against a team shouldnt go 'for' a strong defence because its false.
Yes, DDG is part of a back five and you want your keeper to make saves, but using 'goals conceded' as a standalone stat is a terrible way to make a point when theres absolutely no context. If youre adding chances conceded, it frames a better picture. Added to that, you want to see how a team is set up.
Back to Smalling, yes we do know what he has to offer. Sure, hes better than Jones and Rojo. But at the same time, he really is not good enough for United. Him doing well elsewhere is not a good indicator of claiming Smalling should be in the first team.
It seems the clamour for Smalling is based on a couple of seasons where:
1) he partnered with Blind in a team where we hogged 80% of the possession and did nothing but pass it sideways in front of the defence
2) DDG had a worldy-season
in 2020, Smalling is not the answer for Man United.
This is also why using stats again and again can be very false / misleading. Two seasons ago, the number of cleansheets or goals we conceded wasnt because of a strong defence, but because DDG was called up on and making worldies. Meanwhile last season and this hes been making some mistakes. (Heck one of the few goals weve recently conceded has been due to him booting the ball of a player). That shouldnt go against the defence, (but will stat wise). Likewise DDG saving 30 or whatever shots against a team shouldnt go 'for' a strong defence because its false.
Yes, DDG is part of a back five and you want your keeper to make saves, but using 'goals conceded' as a standalone stat is a terrible way to make a point when theres absolutely no context. If youre adding chances conceded, it frames a better picture. Added to that, you want to see how a team is set up.
Back to Smalling, yes we do know what he has to offer. Sure, hes better than Jones and Rojo. But at the same time, he really is not good enough for United. Him doing well elsewhere is not a good indicator of claiming Smalling should be in the first team.
It seems the clamour for Smalling is based on a couple of seasons where:
1) he partnered with Blind in a team where we hogged 80% of the possession and did nothing but pass it sideways in front of the defence
2) DDG had a worldy-season
in 2020, Smalling is not the answer for Man United.
No we weren't. We have not played good football for a while now.
This is the point you are using 1 season out of 9 to show Smallings stats. What about other seasons?
Finally, I would rather this side than the side 2 years ago.
Exactly this, him doing well in Italy means nothing to United now. We have moved on, fans should move on from him too.
I have not watched Smalling in every game this season, whereas I watched 80% of United games when he was here so, I would rather judge based on what I have watched than stats from Italy.
Fans watch highlights and look at Roma's defensive stats and say he is brilliant, I have watched 3/4 games when they are on and Smalling has been at fault to 4/5 goals in Serie A from the games I have watched.
Like i said, very narrow mindedWhat a joke
"more together", less points, way down the table, less goals scored, more conceded.
Because we've had 6 better games, the whole season is great. Sure. You have the memory of a goldfish.
Try and be positive for a little while, it'll make you feel better about yourself i promise.
We have a better squad, a better transfer strategy, better youngsters. Players are improving and deadwood players who dont contribute are being phased out with each transfer window.
But Negative Jose was the answer? He set back so many players, was abysmal in the transfer market and turned the place into a pantamine with his behaviour. He made us into a joke. But they were the good ol days hey? Get a grip you clown
I'm being positive. Its been a few weeks, we're 5th. We obviously not as good as when we were 2nd.
If we kept this up for a bunch of months it'd mean something. We havent.
If everything was better like you say, we'd be in a better position
We're in the middle of a complete reshape/transition of the entire 25 man squad.
We were always going to be inconsistent for a year or 2.
We were appalling under Jose, even when we finished 2nd. Jose's tenure as our manager probably set us back 3 seasons. It was the worst period of our recent history by far. Finishing 2nd was papering over the cracks, we were always going to implode under Jose, its what he does - he comes in, he has some success, he annoys the entire playing squad, alienates himself, gets arsey with the media and forces the board to sack him and leaves the club in a bigger mess than when he took over. He's an atrocious football character and we allowed him to carry on for far too long - he was an awful appointment and its been proven by his actions that led us to sack him.
anyway - we've gone off topic. You can keep your deluded opinions and i'll keep my viewpoints. We dont have to agree - i just get miffed when common sense doesnt prevail.
Smalling - not good enough. Needs to move on. End of story
Any chance we get £15-20 ml for him?
Absolutely - I was ridiculed for saying this - but I still think Jones, Smalling and Lingard will easily get us £50 million - add Pogba and one of the goalies - and we have the £200 million (+ 50 additional million from the owners) we need to finish uur rebuild and get 3-4 quality players in.
He was good in Roma at start, but made many mistakes and poor performances lately. Doesn’t matter if he’s good or bad, because he doesn’t fit the way Ole has set up his team to play. Makes no sense to ruin the whole rebuilding project just to accommodate Smalling.
30 years old, starting to drop off physically. He has been vastly over criticised and scapegoated in his time at Utd, and I will argue with anyone that he was a far better player than he was ever given credit for. However Utd should be looking to identify a long term partner for Maguire(I don't believe in Lindelof) and to develop Tuanzebe. Smalling back muddies the waters because he is still too good to be a pure squad player.
I agree with you. He doesnt suit the playing style that Ole is trying implement at all. He is nowhere near comfortable enough on the ball.
Nothing against him. Very good defender. Strong in the box. It's good that he is doing okay at Roma as we could use a decent transfer fee for him.
Can anybody tell me what the "style of play" has produced for us this season with Maguire and Lindelof, 2 players more comfortable on the ball?
Again we've conceded more goals than 2 seasons ago, scored less goals, have less of the ball, less passes, less interceptions
We've averaged 1 more shot which also comes from averaging 1 more shot from outside the box than in 17/18. We've averaged 1 more tackle too. So we've essentially just tried an extra shot from range and an extra tackle. I don't think those things came from having Lindelof instead of Smalling.
We've spent £150 million on defenders alone since 17/18 and we have a worse defensive record, less of the ball and scored less goals. What more would it take to understand that it actually has no real world value and effect? Would we need to still be mid table like earlier in the season? Or relegated? Or would we still be better than 2 years ago even if we were playing in the championship just because Jones and Smalling arent starting?
Again we've conceded more goals than 2 seasons ago, scored less goals, have less of the ball, less passes, less interceptions
We've averaged 1 more shot which also comes from averaging 1 more shot from outside the box than in 17/18. We've averaged 1 more tackle too. So we've essentially just tried an extra shot from range and an extra tackle. I don't think those things came from having Lindelof instead of Smalling.
We've spent £150 million on defenders alone since 17/18 and we have a worse defensive record, less of the ball and scored less goals. What more would it take to understand that it actually has no real world value and effect? Would we need to still be mid table like earlier in the season? Or relegated? Or would we still be better than 2 years ago even if we were playing in the championship just because Jones and Smalling arent starting?
There is hardly any player left from that season, so the difference is more than Smalling being shipped. Why not compare to last season? There is a project to rebuild the team. If it will be succesful or not we’ll have to wait and see, but it has looked good lately. Defence has been very solid and comfortable in a way that I don’t think would be possible with Smalling.
The very simple fact that your defensive record, possession stats and goals scored is determined by a hell of a lot more factors than just which players you have in your back line.
Why aren't you mentioning Jose in all of this, who actually still cared back in 2017 and has made a career out of being one of the best at setting up teams that are difficult to score against vs Ole who is handling a very young team in a rebuilding phase, or the fact that DDG was a level or two above what he has shown this season, or the lengthy injuries to key players like Martial, McTominay, Rashford, Pogba?
If you're going to make an argument for why Smalling should be in our first 11 then you should do that by highlighting his skills instead of comparing two different teams with different managers.
If we're not going to buy another CB we simply need him. One injury to Lindelof or Maguire and we're back to playing Jones, Rojo, Tuanzebe, Fosu-Mensah, Bailly etc.
I don't think we're going to buy another CB right away, but we have a lot of young players in different positions. We have to get rid of Jones, Rojo and Tuanzebe and Mensah isn't ready to be relied on unfortunately due to their injuries. I think we need quality options and reliability defensively next season. We don't want to make improvements in an attacking sense while weakening our defence. Without buying anyone we could still improve our squad to maintain a certain level of competitiveness in terms of quality. Maguire, Smalling, Lindelof, Bailly. Pretty strong if we're going to be challenging for the title.
I don't think we're going to buy another CB right away, but we have a lot of young players in different positions. We have to get rid of Jones, Rojo and Tuanzebe and Mensah isn't ready to be relied on unfortunately due to their injuries. I think we need quality options and reliability defensively next season. We don't want to make improvements in an attacking sense while weakening our defence. Without buying anyone we could still improve our squad to maintain a certain level of competitiveness in terms of quality. Maguire, Smalling, Lindelof, Bailly. Pretty strong if we're going to be challenging for the title.
Jones and Rojo got to go first and second.
If Smalling goes we need to spend on a CB because Bailly and Tuanzebe are injury prone.
Unless we spend big on another CB then i'll probably keep Smalling as a bench option.
We are likely to spend big on a RW, a CM and a striker and because of that maybe a new CB is more likely to happen in summer 2021.
If Smalling goes we need to spend on a CB because Bailly and Tuanzebe are injury prone.
Unless we spend big on another CB then i'll probably keep Smalling as a bench option.
We are likely to spend big on a RW, a CM and a striker and because of that maybe a new CB is more likely to happen in summer 2021.
Smalling won't accept being a bench option, when he can play every week in Italy.
He didn’t want to be the bench option and I don’t think that has changed. But @MikeKing is right, the troop is thin when it comes to CBs due to all the injuries. There were times this season where they played through smaller injuries because no other CB was available.
Players who arent at the club anymore :
Blind, Fellaini, Carrick, Lukaku
On loan :
Smalling
Fellaini was a plan B, Carrick on his last legs, Blind had become a backup LB under Mourinho and Lukaku wasnt starting anymore. Ander was a squad player, Valencia on his last legs.
So we have a good 80%+ of what we had 2 seasons ago.
Mourinho sabotaged us last season. He took us from the 17/18 season where we performed around 6.5/10 to the finances we pumped into the squad, to about a 3/10 when he was finally sacked. Ole bumped us from the 3/10 to like 4.5 to 5/10 last season. And right now we're probably around 5.5/10
We're obviously better than last season in terms of the atmosphere without Mourinho. But we havent matched Ole's run from last year yet with Mourinho's squad have we? That showed what we could do with those players.
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The difference is bigger than that.
These are the 15 players that have most PL minutes this season, in the order of played minutes:
DDG, Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, James, Fred, Martial, Rashford, McT, Pereira, Shaw, Matic, Young (has left) Lingard, Williams
This is how it looked two seasons ago:
DDG, Matic, Lukaku, Valencia, Smalling, Young, Pogba, Jones, Mata, Lingard, Rashford, Martial, Lindelof, Herrera, Sanchez
These are the players who are top-15 both seasons: DDG, Matic, Lingard, Lindelof, Martial and Rashford. We can add Young to that, even though he has now left.
DDG is the only player who was a undisputed regular in both seasons. Two years ago he saved 10 extra goals that season and this season he cost a handful.
Another difference is, imo, that the competition is harder now. Or maybe that's just a feeling I have.
I agree that the competition is harder now in terms of how many good teams there are. But I dont think thats been a problem in terms of us getting points this season. We've been bad at beating the easier teams, not the competition for top 4 or 5.
And we might choose different players, but we still have the option of picking the vast majority of the ones we had 2 seasons ago that finished 2nd. Thats a choice. And almost every metric suggests its a bad choice because we're worse than 2 seasons ago.
I appreciate that everyone is excited because we finally made a really good signing with Fernandes, but even if you look at our last 5 league games we have the exact same form as Arsenal.
I don't anticipate them being a serious title contender next season, which is what we should have been last season following a 2nd place finish. And everything suggests we wont be either. So we're still trying to claw back and match what we were 2 seasons ago.
Anyway back on topic to Smalling in particular. I still think he'll sign for someone in Italy and we'll have to sign a new CB to play with Maguire since Tuanzebe hasnt broken through. I just laugh at the idea that "we've moved on" or "we have a better style now that he doesnt fit", because we were a better more successful team when him and Phil Jones were our CB pairing 2 seasons ago. And now we're struggling to get into the champions league because we have trouble beating teams that even now we should be stronger than, not City, Liverpool and champions league contenders.
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Do you think we would have had more points and conceded less goals if Smalling and Jones had played say 25 games together as our CB's this season?
I think it might have been close to the same.
The team was better 2 seasons ago, I'm not saying it was specifically because of Jones and Smalling at CB.
I dont think theres any reasonable proof that having "ball playing CBs" made us better in terms of having the ball, creating chances, scoring goals, defending and conceding goals or getting more points.
I would release Smalling simply because he doesn't want to return. Honestly I'd get rid of Jones and Rojo and I'd add a CB on the cheap (Upamecano? Ben Godfrey?). Maguire, Lindelof, Upamecano and Tuanzebe should be enough for next season, assuming that Tuanzebe isn't an overrated crock.
Upamecano and Godfrey seem like some of the most expensive options you could suggest. Theres nothing cheap about them
We conceded FIFTY FOUR goals the whole of last season with Smalling a regular in that defence. This season with Maguire and Lindelof/Bailly we have the second highest number of cleansheets in Europe and we are yet to look into deeper factors like duels won, interceptions made, transitional play etc with Smalling/Maguire as mainstays in our defence. Before you talk about the 17/18 season our defence looked good cause of De Gea being a beast that season not Smalling.
Do you think so? I always thought that Koulibaly, Skriniar and Varane would be more expensive
We need players whom on one hand are more then just extra bodies to use and on the other hand they won't break the bank. Upamecano is heading to his last year of contract while Norwich will probably get relegated next season. That should drive the price down
Last season was a massive outlier. The manager spent the season shit-talking our defence (the entire team really, but particularly the defence), quite blatantly playing bad defensive line-ups in the early part of the season to make a point, refusing to drop our defensive midfielder who was in atrocious form, and just destroying morale in general. Not to mention our goalkeeper being absolutely terrible and conceding a significant amount of goals that you would expect any decent keeper to save. Our rightback was also a past it Young who was always better on the left.
All the seasons before that we had either the best or second best defence in the league.
Yep. Our defence was always going to be much better this season with improved confidence and a better RB.
Well they're expensive too, but Upemacano is the main CB at the team top of the league and will have all the clubs looking at him before presumably a bidding war.
Wasnt it Spurs who already wanted Godfrey and Norwich were talking up his price. So that would be another bidding war, presumably smaller than with Upemacano but still not cheap
Lindelof was also in that defense.
Smalling and Jones were starting the season before and had a better record than we have this season.
Did help that we had peak De Gea though.
I feel like I've never actually seen a Bailly-Smalling combo. Can't be right surely?
It happened a few times early in Bailly's first season. Very rarely (if ever) since then.
Nothing is cheap at this level unless of course we are able to find a rough gem like Johnson or Ole were. However I can see us get Godfrey in the summer for 40-50m. That cost would be paid off by selling Jones, Rojo and Smalling
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