So Jose Was Right?

el3mel

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The most underwhelming european cup trophy we’ve won against some mighty minnows along the way.
These underwhelming trophies we can't even win anymore. Hilarious to see people still mocking these cups after 5 years of being trophyless and shit.
 

Trequarista10

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Not really, you can't control the results of the transfers a lot of time. You can sign a top player and ends up flopping for various reasons. You can't simply say it was the wrong decision to sign such player. If time had went back 100 times to 2016 summer, I would have signed Pogba every single time. It was the right choice back then and the club did well to land one of the best midfielders in the world. What happened after that was unfortunate, but it was the right deal at that time, and Pogba was doing well at United until his 3rd season here from what I remember.

That ratio you're talking about is fine until you realize that the majority of signings made post Ferguson at United ended up flopping anyway, LVG and Ole signings have also mostly failed and those done under Ten Hag doesn't look that good either. Screams more of a problem with the club rather than the managers, or probably even the players themselves. Mourinho had a pretty damn good track record at transfers before United, meanwhile. If we look at Pep's transfers at City, a lot of them have been rubbish. In his first window he signed Gundogan, Nolito, Sane, Bravo, Zinchenko and Stones. How many of these ended up succeeding ? You tell me. It's not a big deal. They cashed on the trash and replaced them with good players and life continues. It's only a problem at United thanks to our awful structure.

Lukaku wasn't bulky at Everton when we signed him, again, that's just hindsight :


As you can see his body was pretty lean and his finishing was considered his strongest aspect back then, and again, our other options in the market back then were Morata and Belotti, who have been awful since then. Lukaku was a proven goal scoring machine in PL for a midtable club, his last 2 seasons at Everton had him banging 18 and 25 goals in the league, and was still only 24 years old, similar to Pogba, he had a lot of room and long years ahead of him to improve and develop, it's a no brainer signing for me. Still, Lukaku had a good season in which he scored 28 goals and helped us finish top 4 in the league and reach a cup final. He has done more than a lot of our current dross, including for example the 90m Jadon Sancho. We have made far worse transfers. There was nothing disastrous about the Lukaku business.

Weird to still talk about Perisic as a potential bad transfer just due to his age when he has done far more in his career since this summer than what Man United achieved, he played for Bayern and Inter and won league titles and CLs. If anything, he's probably the one happy this signing didn't go on and he didn't join our shitshow. Sacking Mourinho didn't really solve the issue of running behind +30 years old stop gaps so feels weird to keep pointing that out. Alright, we didn't sign Perisic or Willian, but Ole has brought us two +35 years old strikers to be the main forward line, not to mention the 28 years injury prone Varane. How many youngsters did United sign to play for the first team post Mourinho ? How many young players did we see a breakthrough for them post Mourinho ? Only Greenwood. It's not like he was hindering the club's strategy or something, so this point always felt odd to me.

Anyway, no one is saying Mourinho didn't make mistakes in the market or that some of his choices weren't poor. I just don't see the issue in signing players like Pogba or Lukaku, or betting on players like Bailly, Dalot or Lindelof. Neither of these were really bad decisions and I have no regrets about the clubs signing them. Considering signing someone like Pogba back then as a wrong decision is honestly ridiculous to me.
Jesus fecking christ man let it go. His signings were shit, no bloody essays is going to change that fact. His signings were also shit at Spurs, too. I always admired his as a manager and was envious of Chelsea when they hired him (both times), but he was a spent force by the time he was with us. And his signings were bad! Not a couple bad signings, not 50:50, but the vast majority!
 

el3mel

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Jesus fecking christ man let it go. His signings were shit, no bloody essays is going to change that fact. His signings were also shit at Spurs, too. I always admired his as a manager and was envious of Chelsea when they hired him (both times), but he was a spent force by the time he was with us. And his signings were bad! Not a couple bad signings, not 50:50, but the vast majority!
:lol:

Pretty much the reply you expect from someone when he ends up not having a response to an argument. That's the state of RedCafe at the moment. Try to have a proper discussion with someone on this forum and after some posts it ends like this.

Enjoy your evening.
 

HookedOnAPhelan

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We were the biggest spending club in the world during Mourinho's tenure. Never got close to a league title or a CL title, but hey, he won a Europa League, beating out the likes of Feyenoord, Zorya, St. Etienne, Rostov, Anderlecht, and Celta Vigo, so it's all good.

Ffs, these people :lol:
 

Tyrion

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He was right about some of the players but he was part of the problem as well.

People need to understand that pointing at our players and saying "They're shite" isn't going to make them better even if it does feel good.
 

Trequarista10

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:lol:

Pretty much the reply you expect from someone when he ends up not having a response to an argument. That's the state of RedCafe at the moment. Try to have a proper discussion with someone on this forum and after some posts it ends like this.

Enjoy your evening.
I'm eating my dinner, and I saw your bloody monologue and thought what the actual feck :lol:

Best save each other plenty of time. I will have detailed convos on pretty much anything, but this one isn't very interesting.

P.s. His signings were bad, man. Really, really bad. :devil:
 

Chief123

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Winning trophies is great, and yes jose won us the Europa league. But to use that as justification that we should have kept him as manager is weak.

We were absolutely right to sack Jose. The club was as toxic as I’ve ever seen it. Players had downed tools and the manager has lost virtually every player in the dressing room. He was picking fights with players and the media. It was one of the best decisions we made under the glazers to sack him ironically.

But to keep getting funny warm feelings in our tummy for Jose everytime we’re in the shit is just silly.

If we are just going to use trophies to justify arguments then we should hire Ranieri as he’s proven he can win the premier league title. Has as many as klopp.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Underwhelming :lol: We haven't won anything since.
FA Cup > League Cup and Van Gaal got sacked as soon as he won the FA Cup, which shows how the club value domestic trophies. Nice to win the Europa League for the first time but the primary reason for that at the time was to make up for finishing 6th in the league, if he lost that match he probably would have been gone.
 

Nani Nana

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We finished number 2 in the league under Jose, of course it was a mistake to let him go. It was a mistake to let go every manager apart from Moyes.
 

el3mel

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FA Cup > League Cup and Van Gaal got sacked as soon as he won the FA Cup, which shows how the club value domestic trophies. Nice to win the Europa League for the first time but the primary reason for that at the time was to make up for finishing 6th in the league, if he lost that match he probably would have been gone.
If we win League Cup this season it'll actually look like a huge achievement for the current Man United team. :lol:

I would actually kill to win it after 5 years of being tropyless. I'm not joking, that's how shit we have come since then.

So yeah, really weird to mock these kind of trophies at our current state.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Jose being right about a few things doesn't mean he also wasn't a problem.

It's not all mutual.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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If we win League Cup this season it'll actually look like a huge achievement for the current Man United team. :lol:

I would actually kill to win it after 5 years of being tropyless. I'm not joking, that's how shit we have come since then.

So yeah, really weird to mock these kind of trophies at our current state.
Not really mocking, just the reality that Van Gaal was sacked after winning the FA Cup because he didn't make top 4. If Ten Hag wins the League Cup, it's better than nothing, but if he finishes 8th in the league with it, then his job will be at serious risk.
 

el3mel

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Not really mocking, just the reality that Van Gaal was sacked after winning the FA Cup because he didn't make top 4. If Ten Hag wins the League Cup, it's better than nothing, but if he finishes 8th in the league with it, then his job will be at serious risk.
I bet you Murtough will consider the season a huge success in that case.
 

Chip

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As toxic as he was, we'd probably be in a better situation now if we'd kept him. Probably would've won a few more "minor and insignificant" trophies in the last 5 years as well.
 

Amira

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Was Jose right? Yes

Was Jose the right man to fix it? No
 

TsuWave

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feck him and two trophies that he won with us. Our last two trophies.....
Trophies are just for ego
Being appreciative of trophies and still saying fecking Mourinho aren’t mutually exclusive.

That said, feck Mourinho and anybody that loves him
 

Irwin99

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Was Jose right? Yes

Was Jose the right man to fix it? No
Agree. It still amazes me that people can't separate the two, in a similar way to Ralf's performance as a manager here (very very bad) and his overall advisory comments (very sensible and rational).

Jose is the best of a bad bunch we've had since SAF and he said somethings about certain players which really do look true. He was also a toxic a-hole who wasn't right for this club. Conte would have been exactly the same had he got the job last year- in fact he would have gone ballistic and probably murdered someone working with this board and these players.
 

Chief123

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As toxic as he was, we'd probably be in a better situation now if we'd kept him. Probably would've won a few more "minor and insignificant" trophies in the last 5 years as well.
We wouldn’t, we really wouldn’t. How was he ever going to fix it when the players didn’t want to play for him anymore? He was fighting with half the squad and having meltdowns in the media. It’s not like he could swap 15 players all at once to start again.

He had to go. It was absolutely the right decision at the time. Just because we’ve been a failure since, it doesn’t make that decision wrong.

A right decision can be followed by multiple wrong decisions. It doesn’t make the original decision wrong as well.
 

Foxbatt

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Agree. It still amazes me that people can't separate the two, in a similar way to Ralf's performance as a manager here (very very bad) and his overall advisory comments (very sensible and rational).

Jose is the best of a bad bunch we've had since SAF and he said somethings about certain players which really do look true. He was also a toxic a-hole who wasn't right for this club. Conte would have been exactly the same had he got the job last year- in fact he would have gone ballistic and probably murdered someone working with this board and these players.
A sensible post. Yes he was right about the players and he was also a problem. I wish that we had got Conti who would have gone ballistic and got rid of this joker Murtough.
 

Ekeke

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He A) Built most of the team he was complaining about, to get the heat off himself and B) Was a bigger problem than the players himself. We only came 2nd because our rivals were doing almost as bad as we are now. And in fact, that season we were quite hard to beat and then that next summer he laid into all the players and undermined all their confidence. None of our players have defended as well as they did back then. So to this day we're still feeling the effects of his toxic management
 

jasT1981

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We were absolutely right to sack Jose. The club was as toxic as I’ve ever seen it. Players had downed tools and the manager has lost virtually every player in the dressing room. He was picking fights with players and the media. It was one of the best decisions we made under the glazers to sack him ironically.
And 3 managers later, not one thing has changed.
 

Chief123

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And 3 managers later, not one thing has changed.
I wouldn’t say the club is as toxic within the dressing as it was under Jose. ETH certainly hasn’t lost every player in the dressing room. The players haven’t downed tools. They are playing for the manager. It’s just half of them aren’t very good.

You say nothing has changed since Jose. Even if we agree on that, it still doesn’t make it a wrong decision to sack Jose. It just means we made more wrong decisions after.
 

Mr Smith

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He was right about the character and ability of some of the players, but he was also part of the problem and didn't deserve to be backed.
 

Mr Smith

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And 3 managers later, not one thing has changed.
That's being a little disingenuous. Right now things are as bad or worse, but things move fast in football. There have been periods post Jose (and even with Jose) when the feel-good factor was back and we were playing good football and scaring other teams. If we get De Jong and results improve, it will swing again. But the fact that it keeps swinging back does indicate (as I'm sure you were implying), that there are fundamental cultural problems at the club, which will always see us swing back towards the negative.
 

croadyman

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That's being a little disingenuous. Right now things are as bad or worse, but things move fast in football. There have been periods post Jose (and even with Jose) when the feel-good factor was back and we were playing good football and scaring other teams. If we get De Jong and results improve, it will swing again. But the fact that it keeps swinging back does indicate (as I'm sure you were implying), that there are fundamental cultural problems at the club, which will always see us swing back towards the negative.
We aren't getting De Jong
 

amolbhatia50k

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It's pretty simple.
  • Jose was right about a lot of things I thought he was wrong about for example Martials intensity or Shaws effort (although he went way overboard with him).
  • Jose simply wasn't good enough at United in the players he brought in or the manner in which he coached the team. Even if he didn't fancy Martial for example his pick to replace him... was Sanchez, possibly our worst ever signing. His other signings are just poor- Bailly, Dalot, Fred who only played decently under other managers, Lindelof etc
So yeah one can admit he was correct on a few of these issues but still was a poor fit who didnt do enough. I'd argue appointments like Jose and Ole held us back from modernizing as a football team given the football left the former behind and the latter was never cued up with modern footy anyway.
 

Wing Attack Plan R

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It’s hard to believe Mourinho was our manager at all. He was right about some players being shitty, but he was also wrong in thinking a lot of shitty players were good. He was also a shitty personality. Shit!
 

reelworld

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Winning trophies is great, and yes jose won us the Europa league. But to use that as justification that we should have kept him as manager is weak.

We were absolutely right to sack Jose. The club was as toxic as I’ve ever seen it. Players had downed tools and the manager has lost virtually every player in the dressing room. He was picking fights with players and the media. It was one of the best decisions we made under the glazers to sack him ironically.

But to keep getting funny warm feelings in our tummy for Jose everytime we’re in the shit is just silly.

If we are just going to use trophies to justify arguments then we should hire Ranieri as he’s proven he can win the premier league title. Has as many as klopp.
I can't be arsed reading the whole thread, but but I think we can see that his assessment on current and past United players are correct, especially on Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Luke Shaw for example.
His flaw was always that he knows what's wrong but he doesn't know how to fix it. That's why he's the wrong manager for us. Because we don't just need someone who can identified the flaws, but also to rectify them.
I don't want him back and think it's correct decision to sack him. But man, he was absolutely correct about the state of these players
 

Rampant Red Rodriguez

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The question is no longer about the management, but the players themselves. Its all because we don't have a football person at the head of our mad footballing division at the club who didn't sign a CB or CDM as OGS asked for. Yet they signed a constant crock in Varane who struggles to stay fit?.

First it was a Mourinho problem, then Ole lost control of the wheel, RR the godfather of gengen pressing failed being called outdated by the idiots in the club and fan base and now the best young manager is failing with the same set of players. ETH will be called inexperienced when he gets sacked and Sir Alex will come back to stabalise the club but will fail because of the shit players in our defence and midfield.

Clearly it is not a management issue at all, but a personnel and director problems.
 

MalaysianRed7

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The question is no longer about the management, but the players themselves. Its all because we don't have a football person at the head of our mad footballing division at the club who didn't sign a CB or CDM as OGS asked for. Yet they signed a constant crock in Varane who struggles to stay fit?.

First it was a Mourinho problem, then Ole lost control of the wheel, RR the godfather of gengen pressing failed being called outdated by the idiots in the club and fan base and now the best young manager is failing with the same set of players. ETH will be called inexperienced when he gets sacked and Sir Alex will come back to stabalise the club but will fail because of the shit players in our defence and midfield.

Clearly it is not a management issue at all, but a personnel and director problems.
As manager? :lol: That’s less likely than Mason Greenwood being reinstated and hired as the manager.

I do agree with your point though. These players are absolutely spineless, next to the owners.
 

Swordsman

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The question is no longer about the management, but the players themselves. Its all because we don't have a football person at the head of our mad footballing division at the club who didn't sign a CB or CDM as OGS asked for. Yet they signed a constant crock in Varane who struggles to stay fit?.

First it was a Mourinho problem, then Ole lost control of the wheel, RR the godfather of gengen pressing failed being called outdated by the idiots in the club and fan base and now the best young manager is failing with the same set of players. ETH will be called inexperienced when he gets sacked and Sir Alex will come back to stabalise the club but will fail because of the shit players in our defence and midfield.

Clearly it is not a management issue at all, but a personnel and director problems.
is there a need for DOF ? we can do away with it
 

wolvored

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Mourinho maybe was the right man at the wrong time. If he had followed Fergie, then I think he could have won us a title and certainly top 4 finishes. I also think when he did come he knew it wasnt going to last. He lived out of an hotel for the length of his tenure.
 
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