So what's next for Sir Gareth Southgate?

justsomebloke

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Spot on from Barney Ronay:

Gareth Southgate and the never-ending story of English football’s delusions | England | The Guardian

But then this is England, where it is necessary to manage not just the team but also the vast freighted load of English insularity, English expectation. The founding identity of the England football team rests on one basic misconception, that the default option is for England to win. And that, if this is not happening, then there is a problem to solve, because something is fundamentally wrong with the universe.
 

justsomebloke

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The right kind of progress is consistently losing against any good side you're up against?
In what particular fantasy world has Southgate's England been "consistently losing against any good side they're up against"?

From the article above: It is necessary here to state once again some very simple facts. Southgate has the best win rate of any England manager to oversee 50 games. Southgate has taken England to two semi-finals in five years, after two semi-finals in the previous half a century. Southgate has lost two games out of 26 in the past two years.
 

redcucumber

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It's well-known that England managers during the 2000's were hamstrung by a squad of players who were massively divided due to club rivalries. This team is laden with quality and importantly appear to get on very well with each other. Despite this, England play crap football in the main despite Southgate being in charge for 6 years. We really should have been getting past Croatia in 2018, and the manner of our performance against Italy was really disappointing. When the chips are down, Southgate is just not a manager that you expect to get the team over the line.

I also think there's a general malaise in international football standards at the top level right now. The competition is fairly weak and this feels like the time to take advantage.
 

justsomebloke

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It's well-known that England managers during the 2000's were hamstrung by a squad of players who were massively divided due to club rivalries. This team is laden with quality and importantly appear to get on very well with each other. Despite this, England play crap football in the main despite Southgate being in charge for 6 years. We really should have been getting past Croatia in 2018, and the manner of our performance against Italy was really disappointing. When the chips are down, Southgate is just not a manager that you expect to get the team over the line.

I also think there's a general malaise in international football standards at the top level right now. The competition is fairly weak and this feels like the time to take advantage.
The notion that England has somehow been underperforming under Southgate is not merely demonstrably unfounded in any fact, it's mental. They've been better than any other period in living memory. And the world in which it's some kind of aberration and grave letdown to lose for 2018 Croatia exists solely in the deluded minds of England fans with no grip on reality. Ditto the one where losing on penalties to that Italian team is somehow sub-standard. Same goes for the delusional belief that the talent level of the squad should more or less guarantee great success, or that the competition in international football is now somehow easy. Grow up.

England is not an elite European national team. You've never been one, for any length of time. Except, actually, under Southgate. Reaching semi-finals is a huge achievement, achieved only four times in the history of football.
 

redcucumber

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The notion that England has somehow been underperforming under Southgate is not merely demonstrably unfounded in any fact, it's mental. They've been better than any other period in living memory. And the world in which it's some kind of aberration and grave letdown to lose for 2018 Croatia exists solely in the deluded minds of England fans with no grip on reality. Ditto the one where losing on penalties to that Italian team is somehow sub-standard. Same goes for the delusional belief that the talent level of the squad should more or less guarantee great success, or that the competition in international football is now somehow easy. Grow up.

England is not an elite European national team. You've never been one, for any length of time. Except, actually, under Southgate. Reaching semi-finals is a huge achievement, achieved only four times in the history of football.
What on Earth does any of this have to do with growing up? It's a difference of opinion. What a weird and unnecessary bit of nastiness. You've sort of tainted the rest of your post as I can't be arsed to engage with someone that thinks that's an appropriate way to conversate.
 

justsomebloke

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What on Earth does any of this have to do with growing up? It's a difference of opinion. What a weird and unnecessary bit of nastiness. You've sort of tainted the rest of your post as I can't be arsed to engage with someone that thinks that's an appropriate way to conversate.
Well sorry, but there it is. It's not a difference of opinion. A difference of opinion is when you have two conflicting views on the same reality. The views you, and seemingly a large section of England fans, express about Southgates results have nothing to do with reality. They're batshit crazy, not to put too fine a point on it. Those results can only be construed as unsatisfactory or disappointing if you have expectations that are based on delusional assumptions. Which is where the growing up part comes in. It's that bad.
 

redcucumber

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Well sorry, but there it is. It's not a difference of opinion. A difference of opinion is when you have two conflicting views on the same reality. The views you, and seemingly a large section of England fans, express about Southgates results have nothing to do with reality. They're batshit crazy, not to put too fine a point on it. Those results can only be construed as unsatisfactory or disappointing if you have expectations that are based on delusional assumptions. Which is where the growing up part comes in. It's that bad.
Oh get over yourself. It's international football, it's supposed to be a bit of fun and you're taking people's opinions on the England manager incredibly seriously. I'd much rather England play with a bit of gumption and go for it and fall short with the attacking talent they have than play conservative football and squeeze through to the latter rounds (and inevitably fall short anyway). Seriously, it's not that big of a deal if people want a more attacking minded manager. If you don't think the standard of international football is lower than it has been in recent years then that's on you, it's not delusional to disagree.

I think you should have a think about how you want to engage with other people. You don't come across very well.
 

Needham

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That penalty against Germany, though. It's in all our unconsciousnesses. We fecking resent him. Explains a lot.
 

Woziak

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The guys a bit of an ABU to be honest so feck him, always making snide remarks about United players - going back to Smalling when he criticised his ball playing ability. Absolutely no need for it.

The exception is Maguire but then he has him brought on for Saka to boos, great man management there. Reminiscent of Ole in the meltdown months.
Right Now Smalling should walk into this England side as he’s probably England’s best out and out defender, you don’t conceed 4 goals with him in the heart of defence, sure he’s not the best on the ball but he’s not as bad as people make out either and he’s twice the defensive capabilities of Lindelof or Maguire, Smalldini keeps clean sheets!
 

Woziak

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The notion that England has somehow been underperforming under Southgate is not merely demonstrably unfounded in any fact, it's mental. They've been better than any other period in living memory. And the world in which it's some kind of aberration and grave letdown to lose for 2018 Croatia exists solely in the deluded minds of England fans with no grip on reality. Ditto the one where losing on penalties to that Italian team is somehow sub-standard. Same goes for the delusional belief that the talent level of the squad should more or less guarantee great success, or that the competition in international football is now somehow easy. Grow up.

England is not an elite European national team. You've never been one, for any length of time. Except, actually, under Southgate. Reaching semi-finals is a huge achievement, achieved only four times in the history of football.
I assume you mean 4 times in previous History ;
1966 wc, 1968 Euros, 1990 WC, 1996 Euros
So twice under Sir Alf, Bobby Robson, Terry Venables.

So yes if we include the Nation League Southgate has 3 Semi finals and One final
4th place WC, 3rd Place Nations League, 2nd Euros.
He deserves this tournament but his legacy may be his inefficiency to change in game and his stubbornness to listen, England will be relegated in the nations league and may not get out of the group in the WC then our love of Southgate will change in 1 or 2 weeks in Early December.

I do agree with your comment that England are not and have never been an elite international team however, most of these players like F Tomori, J Sancho, B Saka, D Henderson, P Foden, M Mount, DCL, all won the World Cup at youth level and won in style so this generation is used to wining at club and national level. They play for teams like City, Liverpool, Chelsea and even spurs who have all reached champions league finals in last 5 years, all this suggests that England right now have some really talented players.
Southgate’s success or failure will be similar to Brazil, France, Germany, Holland, Uruguay, Portugal, Argentina, Belgium, Denmark and Spain and will depend on whether FIFA agree on a 26 man or 23 squad. Five subs have already been agreed and this will help the 9 or 10 teams who can genuinely win this tournament this year, now should the squads be increased then those countries with the biggest pool of talent will fill their squads with more attacking options, it’s why I think England did so well at the Euros, Southgate would have only have taken 6 strikers in a 23 man squad. He did, however take 9 instead, H Kane, DCL, M Rashford, Sancho,P Foden, J Grealish, M Mount, B Saka and R Sterling. This is a huge benefit, if most of them are fit and on form you can plan two phases of attack by having a 3 starting places that may be more possession based players like Foden or Grealish then you can bring 2 or 3 on in game with different assets like pacey strikers to attack tired defenders.

The thought of defending against that pool of attacking talent with their pace, power and technical ability would scare most international teams in the same way that France, Brazil and Argentina’s options would too!
If a normal pragmatic Southgate who likes to take 3 GK, 9 defenders, 5 midfielders and 6 strikers. And he decides to starts 3, then one of the subs becomes injured during the tournament, one is suffering from loss of form , then as an opposition team you have less fear and you know how to plan to mitigate against the more limited options your opponent has. The new 5 sub rule in the PL is going to make the top 6 even stronger just like it has at world cups which always been a closed shop, I mentioned 9 or 10 teams can win but in reality the winner will come from France, Uruguay, Brazil, Germany, Spain, England and Argentina because history never lies.
 

Needham

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Spot on from Barney Ronay:

Gareth Southgate and the never-ending story of English football’s delusions | England | The Guardian

But then this is England, where it is necessary to manage not just the team but also the vast freighted load of English insularity, English expectation. The founding identity of the England football team rests on one basic misconception, that the default option is for England to win. And that, if this is not happening, then there is a problem to solve, because something is fundamentally wrong with the universe.
Bullshiz. Southgate had much capital to play with precisely because expectaziones were historically low after Roy's nose rubbing low ebb. England fans had wilfully reduced themselves to the status of Jocks in terms of what we thought we might get from a tournament.
His problem is a different one and in part one created by expectations resultant upon his own success in 2018. Also, no one can deny that pound for pound we have a squad of talent properly on a par with anyone out there today. He'd have done better just going with his best starting 11 through the Nations League as insurance to guarantee his own smooth survival to November. He didnt and he took that risk and this is the result. I see very little chance of England winning the WC with him at the helm this year or any other.
 

UncleBob

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In what particular fantasy world has Southgate's England been "consistently losing against any good side they're up against"?

From the article above: It is necessary here to state once again some very simple facts. Southgate has the best win rate of any England manager to oversee 50 games. Southgate has taken England to two semi-finals in five years, after two semi-finals in the previous half a century. Southgate has lost two games out of 26 in the past two years.
In the fantasy world where he went to the world cup, lost against Belgium two times and got knocked out by Croatia, only managing to win against Sweden, Colombia, Panama and Tunisia.
 

Woziak

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England will lose to Wales in the group stage, I'm calling it now before getting a draw and a win with the other two then losing first ko round
Your more optimistic than me I see two draws and a defeat snd and not getting out if the group !
 

Cloud7

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The whole “Southgate got to a final and a semi final” is so very reminiscent of “Ole got back to back top four finishes and finished second” that I am amazed United fans can’t see the parallels between two managers who are not good enough.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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I think many English fans have this feeling that England has the best squad and team in the world and should win every game. Final is seen as a big failure and should see the manager sacked.

At the same time they complain that Pickford, Maguire, Rice, Henderson, Shaw, Trippier, Mount etc are not good enough, but when they do not play these guy they lost 4-0 to Hungary and Southgate was playing the wrong players so he gets destroyed even more.

I think it might not be the same fans saying all this things, but it feels like a lot of people aren't consistent.

In my opinion Southgate has done a good job and the English squad is strong, but it is probably time to try someone new. A bit similar to the Swedish situation that we have peaked under current manager and could need some fresh ideas.
 

roonster09

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The whole “Southgate got to a final and a semi final” is so very reminiscent of “Ole got back to back top four finishes and finished second” that I am amazed United fans can’t see the parallels between two managers who are not good enough.
Or maybe there are more than just 2 options. People can see managers are not good enough but somehow did a decent job.
 

justsomebloke

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In the fantasy world where he went to the world cup, lost against Belgium two times and got knocked out by Croatia, only managing to win against Sweden, Colombia, Panama and Tunisia.
So, your idea of what "consistently losing against top sides" means is two fairly meaningless games against Belgium, and an extra time loss against Croatia? You've been asleep since 2018?
 

justsomebloke

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The whole “Southgate got to a final and a semi final” is so very reminiscent of “Ole got back to back top four finishes and finished second” that I am amazed United fans can’t see the parallels between two managers who are not good enough.
What's amazing is surely the belief that it makes sense in any way or form to compare Ole getting second place with a club that has 19 PL titles to Southgate getting second place with a team that hasn't been in a finals since 1966.
 

justsomebloke

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Oh get over yourself. It's international football, it's supposed to be a bit of fun and you're taking people's opinions on the England manager incredibly seriously. I'd much rather England play with a bit of gumption and go for it and fall short with the attacking talent they have than play conservative football and squeeze through to the latter rounds (and inevitably fall short anyway). Seriously, it's not that big of a deal if people want a more attacking minded manager. If you don't think the standard of international football is lower than it has been in recent years then that's on you, it's not delusional to disagree.

I think you should have a think about how you want to engage with other people. You don't come across very well.
Well, if you don't want to get called out for bullshit on a discussion forum, don't write it. There's not much to engage with. Going to "it's all just a bit of fun" and "it's not that big a deal" doesn't cut it.
 

JohnnyKills

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This might not be as good a collection of individuals as Sven had, but it's much better team with far less reliance on a messiah type to carry it,.
Much better squad too.

Erikssen's team was turning to lower-level Prem players as soon as it suffered injuries. This one has two or three top players in every position bar CB.
 

youmeletsfly

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To be fair to him, it's a decent generation of English players but nobody is able to carry the team on his back and most of them are just bang average, just the usual overrated English players.

He did fine to take them to a semi and a final, but he's at the same level as the players and it's clear he won't ever go up a notch in terms of tactics and team setup.
 

redcucumber

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Well, if you don't want to get called out for bullshit on a discussion forum, don't write it. There's not much to engage with. Going to "it's all just a bit of fun" and "it's not that big a deal" doesn't cut it.
Getting called out? What the hell are you on about? It's not bullshit, it's just a different opinion to your own. If people having a different opinion to you gets you so worked up, you probably aren't best suited to interacting on forums.
 

roonster09

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Much better squad too.

Erikssen's team was turning to lower-level Prem players as soon as it suffered injuries. This one has two or three top players in every position bar CB.
Not really.

2004
CB - Terry, Sol Campbell, King, Carragher
FBs - Cole, Neville, Neville, Bridge

CMs - Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Hargreaves, Butt
Wingers - Cole, Beckham,

Strikers - Rooney, Owen.

2006
CB - Rio, Terry, Campbell, Carragher
FBs - Cole, Neville, Bridge

CMs - Gerrard, Lampard, Carrick, Hargreaves, Jenas

Wingers - Joe Cole, Lennon, Downing, Walcott,

CFs - Rooney, Owen.

Players like Defoe didn't make the squad and he is better than all the CFs England have today except Kane.

Current England have very good depth in wing position but CF, CB, CM is all decent to average options except Kane. RB is the one position where England have too many options.
 

redcucumber

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Not really.

2004
CB - Terry, Sol Campbell, King, Carragher
FBs - Cole, Neville, Neville, Bridge

CMs - Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Hargreaves, Butt
Wingers - Cole, Beckham,

Strikers - Rooney, Owen.

2006
CB - Rio, Terry, Campbell, Carragher
FBs - Cole, Neville, Bridge

CMs - Gerrard, Lampard, Carrick, Hargreaves, Jenas

Wingers - Joe Cole, Lennon, Downing, Walcott,

CFs - Rooney, Owen.

Players like Defoe didn't make the squad and he is better than all the CFs England have today except Kane.

Current England have very good depth in wing position but CF, CB, CM is all decent to average options except Kane. RB is the one position where England have too many options.
Declan Rice, Henderson, Bellingham, and Phillips is surely a fairly strong selection in midfield? All of those players either play for, or will play for within the next year or so, the biggest and best sides in the world.
 

Adam-Utd

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Spot on from Barney Ronay:

Gareth Southgate and the never-ending story of English football’s delusions | England | The Guardian

But then this is England, where it is necessary to manage not just the team but also the vast freighted load of English insularity, English expectation. The founding identity of the England football team rests on one basic misconception, that the default option is for England to win. And that, if this is not happening, then there is a problem to solve, because something is fundamentally wrong with the universe.
:lol: what a load of rubbish, that is far from spot on.

A team with the quality of ours, the recent 'good' performances of getting to a semi + final, should not be getting stuffed at home by a bang average Hungary side.

It's not just a 1 off either. We've been stringing along poor performances for a long time.

Nobody expects us to easily beat the proper teams in world football but we should always be competitive.
 

roonster09

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Declan Rice, Henderson, Bellingham, and Phillips is surely a fairly strong selection in midfield? All of those players either play for, or will play for within the next year or so, the biggest and best sides in the world.
It's a tricky one. Would like one of Rice or Phillips or Henderson in the team, not all of them together. They lack the creativity.

Bellingham is the best hope or someone like Foden dropping deep as England have good attackers.

Anyways it's a minor point.
 

redcucumber

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It's a tricky one. Would like one of Rice or Phillips or Henderson in the team, not all of them together. They lack the creativity.

Bellingham is the best hope or someone like Foden dropping deep as England have good attackers.

Anyways it's a minor point.
Agreed. The problem is Southgate will inevitably shoehorn both Phillips and Rice into the side which is industrious but as you mentioned, it lacks creativity. England rely massively on their front three and if they are shut out, the team looks bereft of ideas.
 

justsomebloke

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I assume you mean 4 times in previous History ;
1966 wc, 1968 Euros, 1990 WC, 1996 Euros
So twice under Sir Alf, Bobby Robson, Terry Venables.

So yes if we include the Nation League Southgate has 3 Semi finals and One final
4th place WC, 3rd Place Nations League, 2nd Euros.
He deserves this tournament but his legacy may be his inefficiency to change in game and his stubbornness to listen, England will be relegated in the nations league and may not get out of the group in the WC then our love of Southgate will change in 1 or 2 weeks in Early December.

I do agree with your comment that England are not and have never been an elite international team however, most of these players like F Tomori, J Sancho, B Saka, D Henderson, P Foden, M Mount, DCL, all won the World Cup at youth level and won in style so this generation is used to wining at club and national level. They play for teams like City, Liverpool, Chelsea and even spurs who have all reached champions league finals in last 5 years, all this suggests that England right now have some really talented players.
Southgate’s success or failure will be similar to Brazil, France, Germany, Holland, Uruguay, Portugal, Argentina, Belgium, Denmark and Spain and will depend on whether FIFA agree on a 26 man or 23 squad. Five subs have already been agreed and this will help the 9 or 10 teams who can genuinely win this tournament this year, now should the squads be increased then those countries with the biggest pool of talent will fill their squads with more attacking options, it’s why I think England did so well at the Euros, Southgate would have only have taken 6 strikers in a 23 man squad. He did, however take 9 instead, H Kane, DCL, M Rashford, Sancho,P Foden, J Grealish, M Mount, B Saka and R Sterling. This is a huge benefit, if most of them are fit and on form you can plan two phases of attack by having a 3 starting places that may be more possession based players like Foden or Grealish then you can bring 2 or 3 on in game with different assets like pacey strikers to attack tired defenders.

The thought of defending against that pool of attacking talent with their pace, power and technical ability would scare most international teams in the same way that France, Brazil and Argentina’s options would too!
If a normal pragmatic Southgate who likes to take 3 GK, 9 defenders, 5 midfielders and 6 strikers. And he decides to starts 3, then one of the subs becomes injured during the tournament, one is suffering from loss of form , then as an opposition team you have less fear and you know how to plan to mitigate against the more limited options your opponent has. The new 5 sub rule in the PL is going to make the top 6 even stronger just like it has at world cups which always been a closed shop, I mentioned 9 or 10 teams can win but in reality the winner will come from France, Uruguay, Brazil, Germany, Spain, England and Argentina because history never lies.
I did not include the 1968 Euros actually - it's a bit of an arguable case at which point in time you start treating that as a major tournament.

I totally agree there's a legitimate debate whether England would be better served by a more attacking-minded approach, and I also agree that in terms of squad quality, England is in a better place than has normally been the case historically. And I'd love to see England blow away opponents with dazzling attacking football as much as anyone. But I do think it needs to be acknowledged that there are arguments on both sides of that question, and that the results that have been achieved with the more careful style have yielded results that make a pretty good case too. It's hardly an unconventional approach to winning football tournaments, and have been used by teams more talented than England. To argue, like lots of people do, that the only thing preventing England from winning tournaments with attacking football is Southgates incompetence and cowardice is just, well, obviously stupid and ignorant.

What I'm primarily getting at though is the total lack of real perspective among many on the results Southgate have actually achieved, and also on what is reasonable to expect and demand from an England manager. Which is so out of kilter that the overall result is something absurd and really kind of sickening - a fan base so unable to recognise what they're getting (or remember what they've usually been getting) that their dominant reaction to the most high-winning manager England has had in 50 years is one of barely contained rage. The disconnect between sentiment and reality is so enormous and so obvious that I think we're actually talking about something that has a real and negative effect on England's ability to succeed. What it must be like for the players to try to perform for a fanbase with that attitude - it can't be very motivating, to say the least.
 

justsomebloke

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:lol: what a load of rubbish, that is far from spot on.

A team with the quality of ours, the recent 'good' performances of getting to a semi + final, should not be getting stuffed at home by a bang average Hungary side.

It's not just a 1 off either. We've been stringing along poor performances for a long time.

Nobody expects us to easily beat the proper teams in world football but we should always be competitive.
Really? Perhaps you'd like to point out exactly what's rubbish in it. It certainly can't be the view that England should expect to get stuffed by Hungary at home, because that's obviously not one that Ronay has. It also can't be that he doesn't think England should always be competitive, because one of his main points is that "competitive" is exactly what England has been under Southgate, the most recent form aside.
 

justsomebloke

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Getting called out? What the hell are you on about? It's not bullshit, it's just a different opinion to your own. If people having a different opinion to you gets you so worked up, you probably aren't best suited to interacting on forums.
No, in this case it's not "just a different opinion". It's mental. I say that not because I don't like to countenance different views, but because in this particular instance it is mental.
 

Adam-Utd

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Really? Perhaps you'd like to point out exactly what's rubbish in it. It certainly can't be the view that England should expect to get stuffed by Hungary at home, because that's obviously not one that Ronay has. It also can't be that he doesn't think England should always be competitive, because one of his main points is that "competitive" is exactly what England has been under Southgate, the most recent form aside.
He doesn't think the default option for England is to win? of course it is. Every game England plays they're expected to win.

Just because we often fail to produce, doesn't mean we shouldn't win more often. We should have won the Euros, we should have beaten Croatia in the world cup.

I'd say if anything expectations are too low for a Country that produces the talent we do.

All Ronay is doing is making excuses for an under achieving manager.
 

tomaldinho1

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Spot on from Barney Ronay:

Gareth Southgate and the never-ending story of English football’s delusions | England | The Guardian

But then this is England, where it is necessary to manage not just the team but also the vast freighted load of English insularity, English expectation. The founding identity of the England football team rests on one basic misconception, that the default option is for England to win. And that, if this is not happening, then there is a problem to solve, because something is fundamentally wrong with the universe.
I don’t think this is true at all, it’s an outdated viewpoint. We haven’t expected the team to win in years. Now it’s a bit like the issue at United, with some luck and a good draw we could do well in cups but we’re playing some dross football.
 

redcucumber

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No, in this case it's not "just a different opinion". It's mental. I say that not because I don't like to countenance different views, but because in this particular instance it is mental.
Your little crusade of "calling people out", telling people that they need to grow up, and calling them batshit crazy and mental for wanting a more attacking style than what we've seen under Southgate is bizarre. As we can all see, lots of England fans here disagree with you. Maybe take their perspective into account before insulting them for having an opinion which doesn't align with your own? Helpful bit of advice is all.
 
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m1tch

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Didn't Steve McLaren say the England job was essentially too big for him? Yet Steve was undoubtedly a far more experienced and successful manager, and a far more respected coach than Southgate when he got the appointment.
I really do suspect Southgate's primary strength is how he's got the media to dance to his tune all this time. The obsession of his waistcoat distracted from the fact he overplayed his first 11 and ultimately blew our chances at the world cup, being an example.
 

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Southgate is like the Lukaku of football managers. Dines out on beating up on the little guy, gets found out immediately as soon as someone the same size or bigger turns up.
 

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Much better squad too.

Erikssen's team was turning to lower-level Prem players as soon as it suffered injuries. This one has two or three top players in every position bar CB.
Yeah, I think having to rely on the likes of Vassell or Phil Neville for example in most of a do-or-die quarter-final against Portugal just wasn't quite good enough. Would agree there's generally more depth now, although they have the same depth challenge in CM where they rely on a relegation-battling Leeds midfielder. Both Sven and Southgate vintages had weak spots and I don't think either have showed the managerial nous to resolve them.
 

Skills

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Yeah, I think having to rely on the likes of Vassell or Phil Neville for example in most of a do-or-die quarter-final against Portugal just wasn't quite good enough. Would agree there's generally more depth now, although they have the same depth challenge in CM where they rely on a relegation-battling Leeds midfielder. Both Sven and Southgate vintages had weak spots and I don't think either have showed the managerial nous to resolve them.
I mean if he ends up at City this summer, does that change anything?
 

UncleBob

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So, your idea of what "consistently losing against top sides" means is two fairly meaningless games against Belgium, and an extra time loss against Croatia? You've been asleep since 2018?
In fairness, the first loss against Belgium was a no-brainer really, winning the group would've been a nightmare. Doubt many players would call the second match against Belgium "fairly meaningless".

Point is, people focus way too much on when these losses happened. Ah, it was the semi finals, ah it was the final, you got there by the luck of draw. Tougher opposition and odds are you would've been knocked out way earlier. The world cup group and euros group were both absolutely perfectly lined up for reaching the finals, i doubt even Southgate could've dreamt of a easier route in both tournaments. It's not like you would've won against France in 2018 anyway, but Southgates inability to adjust tactics cost you big time against Italy in the Euros.