Some much needed perspective on the United and City squads

[Greck]

Like Pep's team was struggling last year, we have some problems also. We wont get stuffed like they did against Leicester or Everton though. We are just a bit behind City in terms of our rebuild for obvious reasons mentioned in the original post. Yes we can play better and our style needs to improve in some ways, but we are still growing. If we see the same problems at the same levels next year, we should be concerned.

What do you think about our football though? Hypothetically speaking would you be satisfied with a system built around Perisic like players delivering crosses to Lukaku, Ibra, Fellaini types in a 352?

I think our current squad has the potential to play a more fluid game but Jose has a style of play many fans might continue to resist because they want the rebuild to go in a different direction.

 

[DdeGoat]

At the beginning of the season when I was a lurker on this forum:

Sterling and Stones were jokes
Aguero & Gundogan were crock's.
Yaya and Silva were past it
Fernandinho and Otamendi were mediocre
Walker was overrated.
Delph was wasting his career.

A lot has changed since then. We are getting a new perspective on their squad. Laughable.

 

[hn4manunited]

You know.. Maybe.. Just maybe.. This is a good year for them, that's all. We've had it, Chelsea has it, arsenal had it in the past, even Leicester, leeds, hotspur has em.

2009 the all conquering barcelona sides dubed to be the best in the world and ever loses the title next season to madrid. Everyone and their dog thinks chelsea first batch will dominate the epl for years to come. Inter won a treble but loses to juve eventually. Madrid won back to back cl and they're beaten in the league.

A season is long in the present but in the grand scheme of history it's just a year in a series of years.

Next season many factors would play, and the field will change again.

Just keep on doing the best, these things changes. There's no point tearing up everything and start over for what's beyond our control (city's good year is beyond our control).

Sometimes we have to know, what's wrong? Is the system wrong? Wrong sets of player? And sometimes. Just sometimes there's nothing wrong. The other part is just having their year.

I would panick if we're 5th on Jose's second year, regardless on who's 1st (be it leicester or sunderland). But we're 2nd

You are one classy poster! This is one of the most if not the most mature as well as inspirational posts I’ve seen on here in a long long while! This post just sets aside all the noisy bickerings and puts into perspective this world of football we live in. We all get so so caught up in the tiny narrow moments and forget to come up to take a breath to look at the bigger picture

 

[haram]

What do you think about our football though? Hypothetically speaking would you be satisfied with a system built around Perisic like players delivering crosses to Lukaku, Ibra, Fellaini types in a 352?

I think our current squad has the potential to play a more fluid game but Jose has a style of play many fans might continue to resist because they want the rebuild to go in a different direction.

Perisic is capable of more than just crosses. I dont think we will ever play in a way where we just keep crossing it.

 

[Greck]

Perisic is capable of more than just crosses. I dont think we will ever play in a way where we just keep crossing it.

Think you missed the point of the hypothetical which was asking your view on how Jose's style of play fit in with our rebuild and its direction

 

[haram]

Think you missed the point of the hypothetical which was asking your view on how Jose's style of play fit in with our rebuild

We'd still be a physical team, but Martial and Lukaku are good at link play, so we wouldn't have to just resort to going wide and crossing it. Pogba and the AM would link and support the forwards. I do not agree that everything will be negative under Mourinho as the start of the season was far from negative. It also depends on if we play 3 at the back or not. I think Lindelof was purchased so he could step out of defence and play passes in that formation.

 

[Hawks2008]

The manager said last season all he needed was 4 'specialists' to compete. We finished 6th. He brought in more players in the summer window and the consensus on here was that we had a squad that could challenge and maybe win the league. Hindsight is always 20/20 but at the start of the season we all thought this team could give City a real run for their money and now everyone wants to backtrack on those expectations and move goalposts, and talk about how bad our squad is. I understand he inherited a mess and his performances should be compared in relation to LvG and Moyes instead of Pep, but the money excuse and revisionist posts are things I just don't accept.

 

[haram]

The manager said last season all he needed was 4 'specialists' to compete. We finished 6th. He brought in more players in the summer window and the consensus on here was that we had a squad that could challenge and maybe win the league. Hindsight is always 20/20 but at the start of the season we all thought this team could give City a real run for their money and now everyone wants to backtrack on those expectations and move goalposts, and talk about how bad our squad is. I understand he inherited a mess and his performances should be compared in relation to LvG and Moyes instead of Pep, but the money excuse and revisionist posts are things I just don't accept.

No one said the squad is bad, it just needs more building. How was Jose (or anyone) supposed to know City would win every game bar one by the new year?

 

[Giggs86]

Our buys have been quite terrible since SAF left, though we've gotten some gems in Pogba, Martial, Bailly, & Shaw. Mourinho has been wasteful with the money

• You don't fork out 90m for a world class player to play 40 yards away from goal pinging long balls to the FB.
• Why spend 75m on Lukaku who isn't the complete player, when you have young strikers with world class potential in Martial, Rashford. You could have gotten a cheap older experienced striker for cover.
• With 7 CB's (Smalling, Jones, Bailly, Rojo, Blind, TFM, Axel) why spend 31m on another unproven one in Lindelof? Lindelof isn't even better than TFM & Axel from what we've seen so far.

We were crying for a proven world class target man in the summer to replace Zlatan. No one knew that Lukaku would turn out to be so far off the pace. To start the season without a proven striker would've been suicide.

And Rashford, world class potential? So far he shows more resemblance to Welbeck than to be a world class potential.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Enough of the bull. Ignore City. Forget them. Our squad should be good enough to be better than limping past Watford, West Bromwich, drawing against a Leicester with 10 men, and creating fcuk all against Burnley who were missing quite a few First stringers.

 

[SER19]

You're correct op. But you shouldn't have bothered,

The revisionism and re contextualising of things to suit agenda has gone way past the point of even bothering to keep up a pretence of consistent thought from about half of this forum. Depending on what thread they're in; ashley young is either an embarrassing symbol of our failure to improve, or a solid player used as an example of the great squad basis mourinho had to build on. The place is awash with hypocritical ill conceived rubbish by posters who won't just come out and admit or even internally admit that they'll only really enjoy football or tolerate any shortcoming once there's a title at the end of it. Then theyl become top reds and bleat on with endless positivity. This forum is like looking for a diamond in a barrel of shit and the barrel has just been overflowing for the last year

 

[Sky1981]

You are one classy poster! This is one of the most if not the most mature as well as inspirational posts I’ve seen on here in a long long while! This post just sets aside all the noisy bickerings and puts into perspective this world of football we live in. We all get so so caught up in the tiny narrow moments and forget to come up to take a breath to look at the bigger picture

well thank you good sir

 

[SER19]

At the beginning of the season when I was a lurker on this forum:

Sterling and Stones were jokes
Aguero & Gundogan were crock's.
Yaya and Silva were past it
Fernandinho and Otamendi were mediocre
Walker was overrated.
Delph was wasting his career.

A lot has changed since then. We are getting a new perspective on their squad. Laughable.

Except you can't just make any of those statements with authority. Because you read some people making the same hysterical judgements that they make on our players doesn't really mean anything. This is a football forum and there are many idiots on it, but why their opinions should be held up as the definitive one is lost on me? Or does it just suit what you're saying

 

[SER19]

You know.. Maybe.. Just maybe.. This is a good year for them, that's all. We've had it, Chelsea has it, arsenal had it in the past, even Leicester, leeds, hotspur has em.

2009 the all conquering barcelona sides dubed to be the best in the world and ever loses the title next season to madrid. Everyone and their dog thinks chelsea first batch will dominate the epl for years to come. Inter won a treble but loses to juve eventually. Madrid won back to back cl and they're beaten in the league.

A season is long in the present but in the grand scheme of history it's just a year in a series of years.

Next season many factors would play, and the field will change again.

Just keep on doing the best, these things changes. There's no point tearing up everything and start over for what's beyond our control (city's good year is beyond our control).

Sometimes we have to know, what's wrong? Is the system wrong? Wrong sets of player? And sometimes. Just sometimes there's nothing wrong. The other part is just having their year.

I would panick if we're 5th on Jose's second year, regardless on who's 1st (be it leicester or sunderland). But we're 2nd

This should be posted at the end of 90% of active threads and then have the thread closed

 

[eat_grass]

Pep spent his money much more wisely imo

£100 million on Pogba was a solid investment but Pep brought in 3 quality players for the same money

Makes a difference at the end of the day having the quality spread through the team

No, he didn't.

Kyle Walker £45,000,000 14 Jul, 2017
Danilo £26,500,000 23 Jul, 2017
Benjamin Mendy £52,000,000 24 Jul, 2017
Ederson Moraes £35,000,000 08 Jun, 2017

Mourinho had to spend £80 replacing his leading goal scorer in Zlatan because of injury. City instead just kept adding to a solid team, and getting rid of inadequate players. How much would replacing KDB cost, and would Guardiola still have enough money to buy that group of four in addition?

At the start of the season Mourinho said he needed one more window to challenge for the title. Is it his fault you didn't believe him? Are you a better judge of talent than a man that's won 25 trophies over 17 years of top-flight football? I wish I could be so arrogant.

 

[Decomposing In Paris]

It's not just about the money spent. It's about the development within. He's turned Otamendi and Sterling into world class players. Before injury Stones had improved out of sight and he's turned Delph into a valuable linch pin in defense. Before the season those four were being laughed at here on the Caf.

Pep has built a game plan and has all his players motivated and hungry. And all willing to fight for the jumper. And give 110% every match. Keeping them motivated and hungry. Can the same be said for our boys and Mourinho? Who's really improved under Jose? Is everyone happy and buying into Jose's game plan and philosophy? Are the players developing and improving since he took over from LVG?

I know Guillem Balagué isn't very respected on here (I don't listen to him often enough to really know why), but I did hear him claim Otamendi was probably the best defender in Spain when City (and ourselves) were being linked to him. Sterling, alongside Suarez and Sturridge were tearing apart the Premier League together, which is why City spent £50m on him (not a fee to be sniffed at back then). Stones is also a £50m defender, of which there are very few in the world. All three may have improved under Pep, but the quality was always there.

 

[Fridge chutney]

In b4 the wankathon

 

[Fridge chutney]

I agree with Haram. We are not as far along in our rebuild, but we are steadily improving. This is much needed perspective because of the copious number of embarrassing meltdowns on the forum by our own 'fans'.

But... @Sky1981 nailed it. Well said.

 

[haram]

Enough of the bull. Ignore City. Forget them. Our squad should be good enough to be better than limping past Watford, West Bromwich, drawing against a Leicester with 10 men, and creating fcuk all against Burnley who were missing quite a few First stringers.

I think you'll find every team will drop points across a season. Our current points total being enough to compete in other season suggests other teams have always dropped points against similar teams.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

This is not a thread discrediting Pep, he has done very well. It is just relevant with Mourinho's comments on the spending.

The squad Mourinho inherited was no where near good enough to challenge for the league. Out of the players in the squad, here are the players who had any experience in challenging for the league.

De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Rooney & Carrick. 2 of those are ex wingers turned full back, and two of those were well past it. The only players who were good enough for a title challenging side are De Gea, Martial, Jones and Smalling with consistent fitness and if you want to stretch it, Mata and a very raw and young Rashford.

City's squad was not perfect either. However, De Bruyne, Aguero, Silva, Fernandinho and Sterling all had experience of challenging for the title and were all capable of doing so again. They have all improved, yes, and that's also credit to Pep. Those 5 have proven very important to City's current historic run.

Now looking at Jose's spending. Half of the 310 million spent has gone on two players, Pogba and Lukaku. Meanwhile Pep at City did not have to worry about forking out a fortune to bring in De Bruyne and Aguero, as they were already at the club. This allowed him to spend money in other areas.

Jose has spent 313 million according to transfermarkt. Pep has spent 415 million. Considering the gap that already existed between the squads, this is significant. Also considering the damage Moyes and Van Gaal did, the fact that City have been finishing above us for 3 season prior anyway also adds some perspective. I am not criticising Pep for spending, but there was an existing gap between the two already, and the continued spending has consolidated the gap.

Pep was able to get rid of his entire selection of fullbacks and bring in his own. Jose has yet to sign even one fullback. Of course that is also down to his choice, but considering the large outlay in each of his two seasons on Pogba and Lukaku, and the fact that the board wouldn't sanction a move for Perisic, he was perhaps a little restricted. Not so much to derail the entire rebuilding process obviously, and in some ways it is understandable, but these things count. I think he will get rid of players like Blind and Darmian this summer who are quite frankly, not good enough to challenge for the league.

Despite all this, we sit second and have a good points total. The football needs to be better yes, but the team is still growing and we need to add more. We are closer to where Pep's City were last year and I think we need to accept that at the moment we are a bit behind them in the rebuilding process. I think the gap in the league clearly indicates that.

Good post.

I've been saying the same/similar for some time in numerous threads because for whatever reason it isn't a point that the media want to mention and it isn't a point that the many citeh WUMs want to acknowledge, but it's bang on.

I think relative to what they inherited, José has done, and is doing an absolutely brilliant job, but he's only about 3 quarters through. The board must support him in finishing the building of this team.

 

[AmanNits04]

Good thread.
But the thing which is missing in us is the mix of maturity and young players. Experienced players bring composure and stability in a team whereas young players bring the hunger and excitement. We need to have a good mix of that.
I reckon we need a couple of Matic like players in the team who can stabilise the team and bring calmness and experience and our young players are good enough for now, we just need to have patience with them and not let their hunger die.
Before anyone criticises tacitcs, tactics come after mentality and physiological aspects. We need to get that right first and then we can work and win on any kind of tactics.

 

[cyril C]

Pep spent his money much more wisely imo

£100 million on Pogba was a solid investment but Pep brought in 3 quality players for the same money

Makes a difference at the end of the day having the quality spread through the team

I do accept the fact that we have to continue using Fergi era players such as Young and Valencia, while Mourinho needs time to rebuild and can't buy 11 players in 1 season. Well, under Mourinho, he did invest in

1. Bailey - hasn't played lately, slightly worrying if he is following Jones' path
2. Lukaku - 6/10 in offensive and 2/10 on defending, only his 1st season so wait another 18 months before further comment
3. Pogba - much better in 2nd season
4. MK - sorry, unless some miracle happens, turning into a flop
5. Lindelof - slightly improving, need to wait another 12 months before further comment
6. Ibra - really a short term solution, if at all.
7. Matic - good buy.

I think and I hope, our squad would have been much stronger, had Bailey been available (and Lindelof stepping up to challenge Jones/Smalling), cutting those sloppy goals. Our attacking play would be more threatening, had MK showed up, and Lukaku maturing, our MF would be stronger if we can find a better replacement of Fellaini and start challenging Herrera as #3 MF.

Mourinho does have more work to do on Martial, Rashford and Shaw on their consistency.

 

[Werd.]

They are ahead of us atm because they have landed more gold than duds with their money compared to our scattergun approach to transfers over a certain period of time and they have extracted more out of their players through good player development/management.

 

[Darwin09]

I'd think of it this way in terms of Pep v. Jose. Two other managers have won the PL with City in the past 6 seasons. Whereas LvG and Moyes never really came close. So in terms of accomplishments relative to prior managers, unless we really drop off in the 2nd half of the season (still possible), then Jose is ahead of Pep already.

 

[DdeGoat]

Except you can't just make any of those statements with authority. Because you read some people making the same hysterical judgements that they make on our players doesn't really mean anything. This is a football forum and there are many idiots on it, but why their opinions should be held up as the definitive one is lost on me? Or does it just suit what you're saying

What authority? I don't have the sift through every post and then to do a statistical analysis to come to that conclusion. The predominant view was that City's had weaknesses and our squad wasn't that far behind. Plus, there was optimism we'd be up there as this was Jose's second year.

Regarding our squad the view was that we have the best goal keeper in the world. Valencia and Bailly were two of the best in their positions. Rojo was terrific. Jones was finally coming of age. Matic and Pogba would form the best midfield partnership in the league & in Lukaku we were getting a proven PL striker. We had weakness in our squad but those related to the LB and RW positions.

Many Idiots? That's arrogant or condescending, unless you are including yourself in it and saying it in jest. Everyone says things that are right or wrong - people have differing opinions - that's not something unique to redcafe. It's sad that the internet allows people to call each other idiots without consequences, shielding behind a screen. Try to be humble.

I am behind the job Jose has done so far. Though, I am not a big fan of this football or his excuses. I accept it as a necessary evil for our revival & don't find it as grating as some posters do. I accept that City's season is an outlier and that is putting extra pressure on us. The results after the City loss have been a direct consequence of that. If we had somehow managed to draw that game, my belief is that we would be sitting on 48 points right now. Which would be a title challenging return after 20 games in any season. Though that doesn't mean that I have to drag our squad down and big up City's squad. There is no need for me to make stuff up or go against my beliefs to win battles on a public forum.

 

[McGrathsipan]

United have wasted fortunes over the last several seasons. Doesn't matter who's fault it is.
We are miles behind City now and we are the new Liverpool. Face it.

We don't have the right manager and hence no basis to build.

We Will always be around top 6 but eating at the top table is a thing of the past. I can honestly see it being 20 years before anither title.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I'd think of it this way in terms of Pep v. Jose. Two other managers have won the PL with City in the past 6 seasons. Whereas LvG and Moyes never really came close. So in terms of accomplishments relative to prior managers, unless we really drop off in the 2nd half of the season (still possible), then Jose is ahead of Pep already.

That's some deluded thinking.

Pep is light years ahead of Jose.
Look at the difference in the players that were already there

 

[2 man midfield]

Yeah I've said for a few weeks now I've no problem with where we are really. There's no shame in coming second to that side. They've won 19 out of 20, what are you meant to do against that?

 

[OneUnited24]

Look at the difference in the players that were already there

Silva, KdB and Augero have always been great. To say Pep has improved them isnt fair.

You could argue hes utilising them better but i wouldnt say hes improved them

 

[Norris]

Good thread.
But the thing which is missing in us is the mix of maturity and young players. Experienced players bring composure and stability in a team whereas young players bring the hunger and excitement. We need to have a good mix of that.
I reckon we need a couple of Matic like players in the team who can stabilise the team and bring calmness and experience and our young players are good enough for now, we just need to have patience with them and not let their hunger die.
Before anyone criticises tacitcs, tactics come after mentality and physiological aspects. We need to get that right first and then we can work and win on any kind of tactics.

I'm actually thinking it's the opposite situation for us. We do have experienced players in the likes of Carrick, Matic, Mata, Young and Valencia, who offer us the composure and calmness when we play. We also have players who are at their supposed peak in the likes of Rojo, Smalling. It's the energy and exuberance at the front end of the pitch which we seem to miss. Guys like Lingard and Rashford offer that, but one doesn't quite have the talent to be a regular player and the other, as expected, is inconsistent. If we get one or two players with that energy and drive in attack minded positions, I think we'll perform better. I like the fact that we are being linked to someone like Malcom. That's the sort of player we should be looking at.

 

[SER19]

What authority? I don't have the sift through every post and then to do a statistical analysis to come to that conclusion. The predominant view was that City's had weaknesses and our squad wasn't that far behind. Plus, there was optimism we'd be up there as this was Jose's second year.

Regarding our squad the view was that we have the best goal keeper in the world. Valencia and Bailly were two of the best in their positions. Rojo was terrific. Jones was finally coming of age. Matic and Pogba would form the best midfield partnership in the league & in Lukaku we were getting a proven PL striker. We had weakness in our squad but those related to the LB and RW positions.

Many Idiots? That's arrogant or condescending, unless you are including yourself in it and saying it in jest. Everyone says things that are right or wrong - people have differing opinions - that's not something unique to redcafe. It's sad that the internet allows people to call each other idiots without consequences, shielding behind a screen. Try to be humble.

I am behind the job Jose has done so far. Though, I am not a big fan of this football or his excuses. I accept it as a necessary evil for our revival & don't find it as grating as some posters do. I accept that City's season is an outlier and that is putting extra pressure on us. The results after the City loss have been a direct consequence of that. If we had somehow managed to draw that game, my belief is that we would be sitting on 48 points right now. Which would be a title challenging return after 20 games in any season. Though that doesn't mean that I have to drag our squad down and big up City's squad. There is no need for me to make stuff up or go against my beliefs to win battles on a public forum.

You don't have to sift through that is correct but don't portray the entire forum in the light of the hysterical short sighted youtube comments I first quoted. It's a false argument based on extreme examples.

Rojo was terrific under van gaal?

Regarding the idiots, I've been a member here nearly ten years and my opinion is that there are now hundreds of posts a day that would have been candidates for worst post of the year in the past. A huge amount of posts seem to be reactionary, I'll conceived, without depth or thought - generally just moan after moan from thread to thread based on whatever suits that poster at a certain time. Happy to discuss that separately with you if you like and cite hundreds of examples of stuff that is befitting a 'forum.'Different opinion in all for, hyperbolic thin bile not so much

 

[LeftyBlaster]

I think you'll find every team will drop points across a season. Our current points total being enough to compete in other season suggests other teams have always dropped points against similar teams.

The amount of times you used the word "points" and "drop points". I do get what you're saying, but we really should be doing a lot better in terms of performances if not results.

 

[7even]

Our biggest failure is on the transfer market, the results are just a reflection of our inability to invest wisely.

Example 1. Midfield.

Moyes bought Fellaini and LvG bought Herrera, BFS and Schneijderlin. That’s almost £90m and none of them can be labeled as a wise investment. Mourinho bought one world class and one stop gap player for 120m+ , both regular starters. We probably need to invest another £120m+ if we want to challenge City and the best in Europe.

Example 2. Forwards.

Moyes bought Mata and LvG bought Martial, Falcao, de Maria and Memphis. That’s close to £200m. Read that again. Almost 200m and the only player who’s close to be labeled as a wise investment is Martial. Mata has done ok but he’s by no mean a success.

Let above sink in. Almost £300m and none of them are in my books labeled as a good ROI. Our total loss is more then just money. This my friends is a failure of epic proportions.

Just so we do the maths correctly. Of all our serious investments in the last five seasons and only Bailly, Pogba, Matic and Lukaku can call themselves regular starters. All signed by Mourinho for a cost of £230m+

From my perspective we need at least five more players to be level with City. Probably at a cost north of £250m. If we are lucky. That’s at least three more transfer windows. And we need to go for proven quality if we want to reduce the risk of buying new flops. Read Memphis.

I don’t defend Mourinho and his negative approach, sometimes our style is awful. But FFS you must see what a huge challenge he has in front of him. Buying players is half of his job. Selling deadwood, install the right mentality, calibrate our long term style and formation, just to mention a few problems that needs to be fixed. It’s a puzzle that needs patience and time.

Calling for his head now or in the summer is crazy beyond belief. Reality check please.

 

[Kostov]

@haram and @7even too much sense in those posts, spot on both of you. But it falls on deaf ears I'm afraid and the moan brigade will be in full force soon enough.

 

[iportman]

That's some deluded thinking.

Pep is light years ahead of Jose.
Look at the difference in the players that were already there

United have wasted fortunes over the last several seasons. Doesn't matter who's fault it is.
We are miles behind City now and we are the new Liverpool. Face it.

We don't have the right manager and hence no basis to build.

We Will always be around top 6 but eating at the top table is a thing of the past. I can honestly see it being 20 years before anither title.

There is no comparison between utd and Liverpool. Liverpool are a small club with a history and one that's becoming pretty ancient at that .they will never be the force they were .utd are the biggest club in the world comercialy , they may have a blip for a few years but they will be back at a higher level than before inside a few years after the Glazier leaches get an offer even they can't refuse.

 

[Murray3007]

City no doubt had a better squad then we did when both took over but pep has got in everything he needed to get the balance of citys squad to where they are now, Jose has brought in another number 10 in
Mkhitaryan and another CB in Lindelof that we never really needed, would we not have been better signing a full back with that money ?

Pep has also signed alot more players in this time. Jose with 7 and pep with at least 11, pep has a plan a and for me if he dont get he moves on quickly, where for me Jose wasted most of the summer on Perisic, at the same time Yarmalenko went to Dortmond for 20m, similar type players who would have both improved our team. think Jose should prob look at our young players as well and play them as they cant do a worse job then some of the older ones are doing.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

Spending £75M on a one dimensional striker is not a necessary buy. There's no value in that. Surely there were other strikers available that we could have targeted? Surely we didn't put all our eggs into one basket and then hit the panic button and sign Lukaku last minute? And by bringing in the one dimension Lukaku, it's forced Martial and Rashford out of position. Hindering their development. And he also can't play alongside Zlatan.

I still want your opinion on where the massive improvement in Mourinho's tactics will come from? It takes more than just spending money to win silverware and get on City's level. As I said in an earlier post. Pep has done a fantastic job at getting the very best out of his squad. The same can't be said for Jose. None of us want to admit it, but Jose is currently playing a very outdated brand of football. You can tell by body language and effort that the players aren't enjoying themselves compared to City players under Guardiola.

I wouldn't call as simply the fact that Guardiola has made the players better. Ask any footballer and he will tell you playing with better players makes them better.

I'm a generally fairly average to wank footballer, but give me time and space and the ball at the right time in enough space and I can up that to pretty good. I can change from one of the worst on a pitch to one of the better players.

Now take that on a higher level and the same still applies. Certainly players limitations will be hidden when there is quality in every angle.

Pogba is the perfect example. One player alone can raise the game of half the team. The problem with Pogba is he still isn't the most consistent himself and part of that will be down to him having more pressure on the ball due to lacking talent in areas around him.

Pogba is an easy target for the opposition. Stop Pogba and United are half a team.

With City it's harder. They have more top class players.

Is this supposed to be a City vs United or a Pep vs Mourinho?

In either case its hard to compare. The point holds, whether down to effective spending or luck, City have a better team undeniably.

Those players are giving City the experience for which the youth is building on.

I don't think there is much between the managers, just look at their histories. Both have had success in different shapes. I doubted Pep, but it's obvious he has many talents.

 

[KirkDuyt]

This is all well and good, but the gap with City is much bigger than everyone thought before the season started. A lot of people thought United had the best or close to the best squad in the league and even though 2nd place is fine, it's nowhere near close to City at the moment.

Why didn't Mourinho say he couldn't compete with City in the summer? City just clicked completely this summer and I may be wrong, but City have been rich for a while now and I've never seen them this good. It's not ALL about the money, United have plenty too. Lukaku and Pogba were 180 million for God's sake. You don't need more than that to blow away most teams in the league do you?

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

You know.. Maybe.. Just maybe.. This is a good year for them, that's all. We've had it, Chelsea has it, arsenal had it in the past, even Leicester, leeds, hotspur has em.

2009 the all conquering barcelona sides dubed to be the best in the world and ever loses the title next season to madrid. Everyone and their dog thinks chelsea first batch will dominate the epl for years to come. Inter won a treble but loses to juve eventually. Madrid won back to back cl and they're beaten in the league.

A season is long in the present but in the grand scheme of history it's just a year in a series of years.

Next season many factors would play, and the field will change again.

Just keep on doing the best, these things changes. There's no point tearing up everything and start over for what's beyond our control (city's good year is beyond our control).

Sometimes we have to know, what's wrong? Is the system wrong? Wrong sets of player? And sometimes. Just sometimes there's nothing wrong. The other part is just having their year.

I would panick if we're 5th on Jose's second year, regardless on who's 1st (be it leicester or sunderland). But we're 2nd

Barca didn't lose the title in 2010 to Madrid. They won 3 straight La Liga titles.

They lost the title in 2012, unless you meant their 2011 side originally(as that was their best side).

 

[NJM78]

What about Martial?

Martial was a similar price to De Bruyne and arrived before Jose like De Bruyne did with Pep

United aren't far off City with spending, I think City have just spent much better than United

Dont necessarily disagree with what you are saying but the actual money spent = De Bruyne 55m Martial 36m.

Also Pogba cost 89m from you guys not 100m