Some much needed perspective on the United and City squads

devilish

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Shut the feck up if all you have to add to threads are "another City thread"?

OP, I think this view is revisionist. Many supporters believed we would be in the title race at the beginning of the season.
Not really
 

McGrathsipan

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Silva, KdB and Augero have always been great. To say Pep has improved them isnt fair.

You could argue hes utilising them better but i wouldnt say hes improved them
He is getting more from these players - thats his job. They are much better in what they give to the team.

There is no comparison between utd and Liverpool. Liverpool are a small club with a history and one that's becoming pretty ancient at that .they will never be the force they were .utd are the biggest club in the world comercialy , they may have a blip for a few years but they will be back at a higher level than before inside a few years after the Glazier leaches get an offer even they can't refuse.
United are the biggest club, brand, business model in the world ....commercially...you said it. Football wise were are being left behind and now in a constant state of new manager and new players required...just like Liverpool were for years and years. Now they seem to have a purpose and trajectory unlike us, and to call them a small club is ludicrous. They are one of the most famous clubs in the world and now that the international money is ruining the game it might not be long before they are back at the top.

United are in deep trouble football wise.
 

Werd.

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Our biggest failure is on the transfer market, the results are just a reflection of our inability to invest wisely.

Example 1. Midfield.

Moyes bought Fellaini and LvG bought Herrera, BFS and Schneijderlin. That’s almost £90m and none of them can be labeled as a wise investment. Mourinho bought one world class and one stop gap player for 120m+ , both regular starters. We probably need to invest another £120m+ if we want to challenge City and the best in Europe.

Example 2. Forwards.

Moyes bought Mata and LvG bought Martial, Falcao, de Maria and Memphis. That’s close to £200m. Read that again. Almost 200m and the only player who’s close to be labeled as a wise investment is Martial. Mata has done ok but he’s by no mean a success.

Let above sink in. Almost £300m and none of them are in my books labeled as a good ROI. Our total loss is more then just money. This my friends is a failure of epic proportions.

Just so we do the maths correctly. Of all our serious investments in the last five seasons and only Bailly, Pogba, Matic and Lukaku can call themselves regular starters. All signed by Mourinho for a cost of £230m+

From my perspective we need at least five more players to be level with City. Probably at a cost north of £250m. If we are lucky. That’s at least three more transfer windows. And we need to go for proven quality if we want to reduce the risk of buying new flops. Read Memphis.

I don’t defend Mourinho and his negative approach, sometimes our style is awful. But FFS you must see what a huge challenge he has in front of him. Buying players is half of his job. Selling deadwood, install the right mentality, calibrate our long term style and formation, just to mention a few problems that needs to be fixed. It’s a puzzle that needs patience and time.

Calling for his head now or in the summer is crazy beyond belief. Reality check please.
Yep, not much more needs to be said, really. Give Mou the money and he will get our squad in a much better state. However, playe development is another area we need to improve on.
 

FCBarca

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As he already had De Bruyne in the team. De Bruyne wasn't a cheap buy for City either. If Pep had to sign a player of Pogba's calibre like Mourinho had to, he doesn't get to sign these other players in the same window.
Context is important here too. You could just as easily point out that United had to pay a large fee for Pogba despite having let him go for free a few years earlier. KDB not a cheap buy for City but was a cheap one under Mou. And while £54 million is a big fee, no other player in City's squad has been purchased for more - in this market, that's remarkable. Although I suspect that a player like Weigl will change that
 

Raees

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We were crying for a proven world class target man in the summer to replace Zlatan. No one knew that Lukaku would turn out to be so far off the pace. To start the season without a proven striker would've been suicide.

And Rashford, world class potential? So far he shows more resemblance to Welbeck than to be a world class potential.
No one knew? Disagree- most of us were not happy with the Lukaku signing.
 

Leftback99

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My preseason perspective (shared by a few) was that we came 6th last season, replaced Zlatan with Lukaku and added Matic. It was clear it was nowhere near enough but many got carried away thinking we'd be title challengers.

The same will happen again as soon as the first signing is confirmed this summer.
 

Raees

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Embarrassing thread op and said it before but this reference to the money argument is a fecking joke. This forum has actually gone full rawk where the messiah makes a bullshit excuse and the fans lap it up like flocks of sheep.

If you guys think a) we don't spend enough money and b) it's lack of investment which is root cause of our current malaise in terms of performance levels (not results) then I really don't know what to say. Think it's time to hibernate till next year when following another year of spending we are in the same position and the fans wake up and smell the coffee.
 

roonster09

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No one knew? Disagree- most of us were not happy with the Lukaku signing.
Many here didn't want Harry Kane either also there are posters who preferred Benteke over Kane. Apart from that Lukaku isn't even a problem, just that people moan about every failed move all the time.
 

JPRouve

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Many here didn't want Harry Kane either also there are posters who preferred Benteke over Kane. Apart from that Lukaku isn't even a problem, just that people moan about every failed move all the time.
Not because he wasn't good but because we wanted to see one more season out of him. At the exception of a handful of strange viewpoints, Kane's performances were rated. In the case of Lukaku, most didn't want to see anything out of him.

And Kane was never for sale, so it's easy to say no or maybe.
 

Treble

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Providing context without using data is hopeless.

Here are some data prior and after Jose has taken over:

Points in the the 2 seasons prior to Jose, i.e. over 76 league games:

Arsenal - 146
City - 145
Chelsea - 137
United - 136
Spurs - 134
Liverpool - 122

After Jose has taken over, i.e. over 58 league games:

City - 136
Chelsea - 135
Spurs - 123
Liverpool - 114
United - 112
Arsenal - 109 (with a game in hand)

Basically, United didn't have a worse squad than Spurs and Liverpool prior to Jose. 18 months later United are not much better than them either. The only significant improvement has been with regard to Arsenal. The last game between both teams didn't left me with the impression that we have a much better team than them though.

The difference between City and United has gone from 9 pts over 76 games to 24 pts over 58 games. Perspective.
 

roonster09

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Not because he wasn't good but because we wanted to see one more season out of him. At the exception of a handful of strange viewpoints, Kane's performances were rated. In the case of Lukaku, most didn't want to see anything out of him.

And Kane was never for sale, so it's easy to say no or maybe.
Wrong. Just search old threads on Kane and now many thought he is technically limited and posters here preferred Berahino and Bentke over Kane. Nothing to do with having to wait one more season, more to do with technical limitations.

Also easy for posters to just say "I want player" " I don't want player". All it takes is one more post to say "yeah I was wrong about this player" to make everything right, same isn't true in real life when you have to make decisions on player. That's why I will never understand this "I told ya" mentality.
 

Kapardin

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OP is correct of course, but it won't deter some wanting to see champagne football and scoring 150 league goals while playing the likes of Rashford, Mata, Lingard, Valencia, Herrera, Young etc. And let's not forget, "developing" youth -- something that can be done only if one has a settled squad like City's, PSG's or Barca's, but is expected of an average United squad that can't afford to be patient at the moment with youth while dropping points.

Mourinho is not without flaws, he has made some errors of judgment, but the fact is, a lot of deadwood still remains in the squad.
 

JPRouve

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Wrong. Just search old threads on Kane and now many thought he is technically limited and posters here preferred Berahino and Bentke over Kane. Nothing to do with having to wait one more season, more to do with technical limitations.

Also easy for posters to just say "I want player" " I don't want player". All it takes is one more post to say "yeah I was wrong about this player" to make everything right, same isn't true in real life when you have to make decisions on player. That's why I will never understand this "I told ya" mentality.
Some posters not the majority. Some posters think that Martial is a dud, that sterling was a bad player and many other things. But in the case of Kane, the problem was mainly that the touted fee was extremely high for a player that didn't had a great resume, so people wanted to see more.

And it's a forum, we discuss and pretend to be managers. There is nothing serious about it and it's getting tiring to see posters taking liberties because they "support" the manager.
 

roonster09

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Some posters not the majority. Some posters think that Martial is a dud, that sterling was a bad player and many other things. But in the case of Kane, the problem was mainly that the touted fee was extremely high for a player that didn't had a great resume, so people wanted to see more.

And it's a forum, we discuss and pretend to be managers. There is nothing serious about it and it's getting tiring to see posters taking liberties because they "support" the manager.
Obviously I'm talking about those "some" posters.

Bold part, I don't know what you mean by that.

Re pretending to be managers, there is nothing wrong with that but that doesn't mean others shouldn't have problem with writing off young players or any other player so soon.
 

Kostov

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Providing context without using data is hopeless.

Here are some data prior and after Jose has taken over:

Points in the the 2 seasons prior to Jose, i.e. over 76 league games:

Arsenal - 146
City - 145
Chelsea - 137
United - 136
Spurs - 134
Liverpool - 122

After Jose has taken over, i.e. over 58 league games:

City - 136
Chelsea - 135
Spurs - 123
Liverpool - 114
United - 112
Arsenal - 109 (with a game in hand)

Basically, United didn't have a worse squad than Spurs and Liverpool prior to Jose. 18 months later United are not much better than them either. The only significant improvement has been with regard to Arsenal. The last game between both teams didn't left me with the impression that we have a much better team than them though.

The difference between City and United has gone from 9 pts over 76 games to 24 pts over 58 games. Perspective.
That is such a pointless post. So in the period between 2014 and 2016 Arsenal have the best point tally but failed to win the league, which means feck all for the best point tally over two seasons. Chelsea is third despite winning the league with Jose. That comparison gives you short sighted perspective to the situation some team is.

Other example is using last season point tally to give a picture if we improved or not. We had a better season than all of them bar Chelsea. And don't delude yourself that we had a better squad than Spurs when Jose took over.
 

Gentleman Jim

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Dont necessarily disagree with what you are saying but the actual money spent = De Bruyne 55m Martial 36m.

Also Pogba cost 89m from you guys not 100m
If you're going to correct the other poster don't you think that the Martial add-ons should have been mentioned? They're mostly quite achievable.
 

buckooo1978

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comparing the squads inherited is a good point and it's clear that Pep inherited a squad superior to ours

the thing to remember though is that this wasn't an accident - this was the result of excellent long term planning with Pep's arrival in mind

it's no accident that Beguiristain and Soriano arrived at City in 2012 - they were there to develop the club - they've developed the complex, the youth side of things and I wouldn't rule out that the signings prior to Pep arriving were made with him in mind to a degree

this is a club in the managers image and built to his specification - we're talking Fergie-like customisation and control of a club here

Jose has come into a comparative mess of a club, a club who spent 28 million on Fellaini when his release clause was 23.5 million :lol::eek::nono:

we've a long way to go baby and the sooner we bring in a Director of Football like the Bayern model the better for me - even now under Jose I have no confidence we are looking beyond his 3 year tenure
 

JPRouve

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Obviously I'm talking about those "some" posters.

Bold part, I don't know what you mean by that.

Re pretending to be managers, there is nothing wrong with that but that doesn't mean others shouldn't have problem with writing off young players or any other player so soon.
It's not about writing off players. I will just give you my perspective, Mourinho is right about the need to build a top team because that's what he actually said, for me if you have two strikers like Rashford and Martial you look at other positions to improve, for us it was very obvious we needed to improve drastically the wings with actual wide players. When the links with Morata and Lukaku appeared I was against both for the reason aforementioned even though I actually liked Morata. It's probably my stingy side that was talking but I never consider United as an endless pit of money and always consider the repercussion of one move on the rest of the window, I tend to use the logic of a list of chores, if I have to fix the roof and the carpet, I will start with the roof because is on a solid enough floor.
This summer I really struggled with the idea that we were spending a +100m€ on a CB and a striker instead of spending them on two wingers, there is nothing clever about that position it's just some layman common sense, which admittedly is more of an hindrance in professional sport than anything else.

Now, I can't stand posters who call Lukaku a donkey or the ones who have been on Lindelof's back when he has flashed promises from the beginning. They both have potential but it doesn't mean that you have to agree with the logic of their purchases.
 

roonster09

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It's not about writing off players. I will just give you my perspective, Mourinho is right about the need to build a top team because that's what he actually said, for me if you have two strikers like Rashford and Martial you look at other positions to improve, for us it was very obvious we needed to improve drastically the wings with actual wide players. When the links with Morata and Lukaku appeared I was against both for the reason aforementioned even though I actually liked Morata. It's probably my stingy side that was talking but I never consider United as an endless pit of money and always consider the repercussion of one move on the rest of the window, I tend to use the logic of a list of chores, if I have to fix the roof and the carpet, I will start with the roof because is on a solid enough floor.
This summer I really struggled with the idea that we were spending a +100m€ on a CB and a striker instead of spending them on two wingers, there is nothing clever about that position it's just some layman common sense, which admittedly is more of an hindrance in professional sport than anything else.

Now, I can't stand posters who call Lukaku a donkey or the ones who have been on Lindelof's back when he has flashed promises from the beginning. They both have potential but it doesn't mean that you have to agree with the logic of their purchases.
I sort of agree with your logic but you are missing few points. If our team had players who could contribute lot of goals from all the positions then we can get away without a proper goal scoring #9 but after last season, I don't think Jose had the guts or confidence in going with players who never led the line, to add more insult to the injury, Martial and Rashford had poor seasons.

I can see the logic in going for a proper goal scoring #9 but I will never understand why we signed one more CB when we had very good ones already.

Also I was having a go at posters who will post "Yeah I said we shouldn't have signed this player" non stop in every thread or always going on and on about how Morata would have changed our fortunes.
 

Delano

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Did Pep inherit that a good squad?

It may have been slightly better then Jose’s hand, but that City team finished level on points with us and was aging.

He inherited de Bruyne, Silva, Sterling, Fernandinho, Otamendi and Aguero. Let’s be real as well, under Pelligrini Sterling, Otamendi and Fernandinho weren’t seen as anything to worry about.

What he has done is identify the problems and replaced the players. He replaced Hart, 4 Full backs and ushered out the old players. He’s rebuilt midfield and more importantly bought players that fit a style of play that the players have bought into. The players we didn’t worry about have also improved.

Yes city had the Director of Football in place but aside from a few players their recruitment had been just as bad as ours before Pep took over, with the majority of starters being bought by Hughes or in Mancini’s first season.

A bottomless well of cash has helped them, but we’re not exactly begging for funds are we? Our problem is who we’ve bought and how they’ve developed.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Say what you will about Guardiola, what kind of squad he inherited and how much he has spent since he got appointed at City. How many among our fanbase believed that a midfield that consists of Silva and KdB would actually work?

Guardiola took the two wide playmakers he found at the club and played them in the midfield. He then replaced their original positions on the pitch with two equally attacking-minded footballers. He moved away from the main man logic for the forward role and started implementing false nine tactics. Finally, he added not one but two dynamic and capable, in terms of creativity, full-backs. That's seven players on the pitch whose primary focus is to create and score goals. It's true that he spends a lot of money but the football is more than worth it.

And that's exactly what is hurting Mourinho, right now. Last season when it was Conte's Chelsea who were running away with the title (and we were having a worse season in the league than now) there was less moaning because of the belief/(even) certainty among our fans and the neutrals that, once Mourinho gets it right, we can compete with them and even surpass the quality of their football. But against this, Mourinho can't compete against this. He may snatch a title, it's probable, but in terms of style, he'll never be able to match this.

I'm starting to get afraid because i see him losing his calm quite often, lately. He's done quite well, relatively speaking, with this squad. It's not a squad that can chase a City side which looks on its way to 95+ points but it's definitely a squad that can finish stronger than it has in the past four seasons. He should just focus on creating a good Mourinho side instead of contradicting himself with what he says (he got 7/8 of his specialists, after all, didn't he?).

After 2 summers and nearly 300 million Euros, we still don't have a stable defence, we still don't have any quality on the wings and we still look disjointed in the final third of the pitch. So, any in-depth analysis regarding the quality of the squads and what is needed to catch up with City should start with some introspection by Mourinho himself.
 

Gentleman Jim

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comparing the squads inherited is a good point and it's clear that Pep inherited a squad superior to ours

the thing to remember though is that this wasn't an accident - this was the result of excellent long term planning with Pep's arrival in mind

it's no accident that Beguiristain and Soriano arrived at City in 2012 - they were there to develop the club - they've developed the complex, the youth side of things and I wouldn't rule out that the signings prior to Pep arriving were made with him in mind to a degree

this is a club in the managers image and built to his specification - we're talking Fergie-like customisation and control of a club here


Jose has come into a comparative mess of a club, a club who spent 28 million on Fellaini when his release clause was 23.5 million :lol::eek::nono:

we've a long way to go baby and the sooner we bring in a Director of Football like the Bayern model the better for me - even now under Jose I have no confidence we are looking beyond his 3 year tenure
Spot on.
 

Sky1981

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Say what you will about Guardiola, what kind of squad he inherited and how much he has spent since he got appointed at City. How many among our fanbase believed that a midfield that consists of Silva and KdB would actually work?

Guardiola took the two wide playmakers he found at the club and played them in the midfield. He then replaced their original positions on the pitch with two equally attacking-minded footballers. He moved away from the main man logic for the forward role and started implementing false nine tactics. Finally, he added not one but two dynamic and capable, in terms of creativity, full-backs. That's seven players on the pitch whose primary focus is to create and score goals. It's true that he spends a lot of money but the football is more than worth it.

And that's exactly what is hurting Mourinho, right now. Last season when it was Conte's Chelsea who were running away with the title (and we were having a worse season in the league than now) there was less moaning because of the belief/(even) certainty among our fans and the neutrals that, once Mourinho gets it right, we can compete with them and even surpass the quality of their football. But against this, Mourinho can't compete against this. He may snatch a title, it's probable, but in terms of style, he'll never be able to match this.

I'm starting to get afraid because i see him losing his calm quite often, lately. He's done quite well, relatively speaking, with this squad. It's not a squad that can chase a City side which looks on its way to 95+ points but it's definitely a squad that can finish stronger than it has in the past four seasons. He should just focus on creating a good Mourinho side instead of contradicting himself with what he says (he got 7/8 of his specialists, after all, didn't he?).

After 2 summers and nearly 300 million Euros, we still don't have a stable defence, we still don't have any quality on the wings and we still look disjointed in the final third of the pitch. So, any in-depth analysis regarding the quality of the squads and what is needed to catch up with City should start with some introspection by Mourinho himself.
Without city mourinho is doing a marvelous job pts wise. With city he's doing a shit job, - 15 pts in December.

Therein lies the problem. The yard stick moves instead of static.

Mourinho don't have room to risk style over substances, many people claim they'd tolerate a bad finish if it means attacking football, but when the push comes to the shove i doubt they won't be calling for his head. Mourinho ticks all the objectives from the board (top 3 finish? Qf champion league? Good showing in cup runs? Progress over last season?).

Does he merits our patience? He does. For if he doesn't we will have to sack most manager unless they do a city (which is unreasonable)

Does he earnt our patience? Yes he does. Objectively speaking he delivers trophies in history first year, and in 2nd position by christmas.

Would we find anyone better? Probably. But it's not guaranteed. The odds of finding the next saf is 1/100. And at best for pochetino (or whoever the next manager) to be better than mourinho is 50/50 at best.
 

Treble

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That is such a pointless post. So in the period between 2014 and 2016 Arsenal have the best point tally but failed to win the league, which means feck all for the best point tally over two seasons. Chelsea is third despite winning the league with Jose. That comparison gives you short sighted perspective to the situation some team is.

Other example is using last season point tally to give a picture if we improved or not. We had a better season than all of them bar Chelsea. And don't delude yourself that we had a better squad than Spurs when Jose took over.

The data may be useful. Or not. Much depends on what one wants to do with them. My point wasn't that Arsenal were the best team between 14-16. They were more consistent in their results over two seasons though. Generally the results in the league are a more reliable criterion of the state of the squads than the results in the cups. Because luck plays a bigger role in the cups.

The data cited above show that no team was head and shoulders above the rest of the league when Jose, Conte and Guardiola took over in 2016. The notion that United were far behind the top teams is nonsense. City finished on the same points as LVG's United in 2016 and had only 9 pts more in 2015. 9 pts over 76 games is nothing substantial. Spurs finished on just 4 pts more than United in 2016 and Liverpool were worse. The improvement in the league in relation to Spurs and Liverpool hasn't been big, has it? In May 2016 the difference between United and Liverpool was 6 pts. Now, at the end of 2017, it is 5 pts. The difference with City in May 2016 was 0 pts. Now it is 15 pts.

Last season was bad in the league. Compared to it, there is an improvement in the results - 4 pts better than last season. 4 pts are not a huge improvement by any means. Compared to how other top teams have evolved over the last 18 months, the improvement doesn't look very impressive. Still, there has been an improvement in the results of the team. For the first time since Fergie, the team is on course to 80+ pts. The task is to maintain that form till the end of the season. Or even improve on it. But it won't be easy.
 
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Crashoutcassius

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Hindsight police out in force. When will people realise these threads make no sense half way through the season. You had perfect information in August to look at the squad and post this thread. Everything else is hindsight, where your brain has been tricked into thinking that what has transpired was easily predictable for reason x y and z.
 

Needham

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United worrying about City is like America fretting over the emergence of China. There are reasons to believe that while their medium term strengths may be status quo changing, in the long term they will struggle. City are riding on the arc of a bubble, one which has been inflated by a sudden influx of cash from a source which has no deep feeling for the club's permanent power, just as China's capitalist manufacturing boom bears little relationship with its ruling power's communist origins. United, like America, can still rely on a fund of soft power, though mainly historical, which appeals to anyone with a love of football, just as the USA imperfectly makes its appeal to a love for freedom, no matter how occasionally hypocritical seems the claim. City's bubble was inflated by the monies procured by a dictatorship, as is China's. That bubble can pop in an instant, when the owners, for example, face the hangman's rope or a collapse in the financial worth of oil; just as when China's cheap manufacturing base can no longer sustain the contradictions that currently prevent the Chinese people from removing their self appointed autocrats. So don't worry.
 

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We ain't that far behind despite what some of the doom mongers might say. But clearly we are never gonna play as expansively as city under Jose. Might as well accept that, get behind the team and management and hope they get it right. What I do know is we are in in the best shape we have been since saf.
We started the season with a flyer nobody was moaning then but since we have turned predictable and are dropping too many points. We are 6th in the current form tables(over the last 6 matches Home and Away) with a goal difference of +3 worse than anyone above us and are 7th in the home fixture current form league(over 4 home fixtures) with a goal difference of just +1 worse than anyone above us again. http://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england

Add to this we went out of the league cup to a Championship side. One of the only competitions we had a chance of winning this season. That takes the run of form from 3 wins in 6 to 3 wins in 7.

Now this period may be a blip and once the calendar gets back to normal we may start winning well again but people are right to be concerned because if this form is not a blip we will not finish top 4 never mind challenge for the league.

The reason people are concerned is because we have seen it so many times since SAF has left. Were we start the season well then drop off and never regain the form we had. I hope this is not the case but I seriously have a dreaded feeling of déjà vu.
 

Crashoutcassius

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You know.. Maybe.. Just maybe.. This is a good year for them, that's all. We've had it, Chelsea has it, arsenal had it in the past, even Leicester, leeds, hotspur has em.

2009 the all conquering barcelona sides dubed to be the best in the world and ever loses the title next season to madrid. Everyone and their dog thinks chelsea first batch will dominate the epl for years to come. Inter won a treble but loses to juve eventually. Madrid won back to back cl and they're beaten in the league.

A season is long in the present but in the grand scheme of history it's just a year in a series of years.

Next season many factors would play, and the field will change again.

Just keep on doing the best, these things changes. There's no point tearing up everything and start over for what's beyond our control (city's good year is beyond our control).

Sometimes we have to know, what's wrong? Is the system wrong? Wrong sets of player? And sometimes. Just sometimes there's nothing wrong. The other part is just having their year.

I would panick if we're 5th on Jose's second year, regardless on who's 1st (be it leicester or sunderland). But we're 2nd
Great post.

This is the meaning of perspective
 

JPRouve

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I sort of agree with your logic but you are missing few points. If our team had players who could contribute lot of goals from all the positions then we can get away without a proper goal scoring #9 but after last season, I don't think Jose had the guts or confidence in going with players who never led the line, to add more insult to the injury, Martial and Rashford had poor seasons.

I can see the logic in going for a proper goal scoring #9 but I will never understand why we signed one more CB when we had very good ones already.

Also I was having a go at posters who will post "Yeah I said we shouldn't have signed this player" non stop in every thread or always going on and on about how Morata would have changed our fortunes.
And that's why I said in an other thread that you can't ignore Mourinho's decisions, the lack of faith in what he already has made him ignore the more needed fixes. Also I don't know if people agree with that description but I have always seen Lukaku as a Mario Gomez mk2 while he is perfectly able to score a lot of goals, he will limit your attack's potency, so to me it's misguided to look at Lukaku's goalscoring stats, I do hope that he makes me look like a fool but this type of players generally don't change much (Chicharito, Luca Toni, Gomez and others).
 

roonster09

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And that's why I said in an other thread that you can't ignore Mourinho's decisions, the lack of faith in what he already has made him ignore the more needed fixes. Also I don't know if people agree with that description but I have always seen Lukaku as a Mario Gomez mk2 while he is perfectly able to score a lot of goals, he will limit your attack's potency, so to me it's misguided to look at Lukaku's goalscoring stats, I do hope that he makes me look like a fool but this type of players generally don't change much (Chicharito, Luca Toni, Gomez and others).
But our overall goal scoring record has never been better in last 4 years? Also we don't even play to his strengths, our style of play brings the worst in him, as in we ask him to play in a way which is his weakest area.
 

CA_vampire

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In the past 4 years, we finished: 7, 4, 5, 6
City finished: 1, 2, 4, 3

This is a huge gap.

To cover all this lost ground, we have to outspend City by a considerable margin. To outspend! Not spend the same or a little less. We have to outspend City by a considerable amount. If we don't, then we should not expect to win the title.

Some people imagine that the manager can do miracles. Well, usually there are no miracles. Yes, sometimes surprises happen, but this is rare. Usually the best players win (= the most expensive players win).
 

Litch

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This is not a thread discrediting Pep, he has done very well. It is just relevant with Mourinho's comments on the spending.

The squad Mourinho inherited was no where near good enough to challenge for the league. Out of the players in the squad, here are the players who had any experience in challenging for the league.

De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Rooney & Carrick. 2 of those are ex wingers turned full back, and two of those were well past it. The only players who were good enough for a title challenging side are De Gea, Martial, Jones and Smalling with consistent fitness and if you want to stretch it, Mata and a very raw and young Rashford.

City's squad was not perfect either. However, De Bruyne, Aguero, Silva, Fernandinho and Sterling all had experience of challenging for the title and were all capable of doing so again. They have all improved, yes, and that's also credit to Pep. Those 5 have proven very important to City's current historic run.

Now looking at Jose's spending. Half of the 310 million spent has gone on two players, Pogba and Lukaku. Meanwhile Pep at City did not have to worry about forking out a fortune to bring in De Bruyne and Aguero, as they were already at the club. This allowed him to spend money in other areas.

Jose has spent 313 million according to transfermarkt. Pep has spent 415 million. Considering the gap that already existed between the squads, this is significant. Also considering the damage Moyes and Van Gaal did, the fact that City have been finishing above us for 3 season prior anyway also adds some perspective. I am not criticising Pep for spending, but there was an existing gap between the two already, and the continued spending has consolidated the gap.

Pep was able to get rid of his entire selection of fullbacks and bring in his own. Jose has yet to sign even one fullback. Of course that is also down to his choice, but considering the large outlay in each of his two seasons on Pogba and Lukaku, and the fact that the board wouldn't sanction a move for Perisic, he was perhaps a little restricted. Not so much to derail the entire rebuilding process obviously, and in some ways it is understandable, but these things count. I think he will get rid of players like Blind and Darmian this summer who are quite frankly, not good enough to challenge for the league.

Despite all this, we sit second and have a good points total. The football needs to be better yes, but the team is still growing and we need to add more. We are closer to where Pep's City were last year and I think we need to accept that at the moment we are a bit behind them in the rebuilding process. I think the gap in the league clearly indicates that.
Spot on but will not be what some want to hear. Forums are more about apportioning blame than being calm and rational. I think you find out more about people when they are losing than winning.
 

Bestietom

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We let the lot go on 2 areas, Midfield and a CF when we needed 2 full backs and a winger also. Now we still need to fill those areas and add another midfielder or 2 as Carrick, Fellaini, and Herrera are on the way out. We need a playmaker because Mkhitaryan or Mata are not doing it for us. So I would reckon 4/5 players still needed to catch up on City. Then we need to introduce more squad players from the academy/reserves.
 

Litch

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At the beginning of the season when I was a lurker on this forum:

Sterling and Stones were jokes
Aguero & Gundogan were crock's.
Yaya and Silva were past it
Fernandinho and Otamendi were mediocre
Walker was overrated.
Delph was wasting his career.

A lot has changed since then. We are getting a new perspective on their squad. Laughable.
Hindsight is an exact science and something us fans have the benefit of. It's funny how we can have an opinion but then equally rewrite it when it's wrong. Players are vilified in match day posts, then celebrated when they score the winner. We then lose and the posts revert back to type. Pure hypocrisy.
 

JPRouve

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But our overall goal scoring record has never been better in last 4 years? Also we don't even play to his strengths, our style of play brings the worst in him, as in we ask him to play in a way which is his weakest area.
Well, we have better players. My criticism of Mourinho isn't meant to say that he is doing a bad job because that would be a lie, I'm just nuancing the idea that he did his best and is victim of something else than himself, I don't expect him to be perfect. The good thing about Mourinho is that he purchases good players and uses good players which will ultimately always lead to better results, the problem is that he lacks faith and he lacks the ability to use players in roles he is unfamiliar with which can lead to a lack of cohesion when he doesn't have the perfect roster. Funnily enough Jardim has the same problem.
 

roonster09

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Well, we have better players. My criticism of Mourinho isn't meant to say that he is doing a bad job because that would be a lie, I'm just nuancing the idea that he did his best and is victim of something else than himself, I don't expect him to be perfect. The good thing about Mourinho is that he purchases good players and uses good players which will ultimately always lead to better results, the problem is that he lacks faith and he lacks the ability to use players in roles he is unfamiliar with which can lead to a lack of cohesion when he doesn't have the perfect roster. Funnily enough Jardim has the same problem.
We have same players from last season with Lukaku replacing Zlatan, tbh this season our performances are much better than last.

I'm not big fan of Jose even though I try to stay positive all the time but like you said he has his positives. He has his negatives too, like you have already addressed.
 

Randall Flagg

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At the beginning of the season when I was a lurker on this forum:

Sterling and Stones were jokes
Aguero & Gundogan were crock's.
Yaya and Silva were past it
Fernandinho and Otamendi were mediocre
Walker was overrated.
Delph was wasting his career.

A lot has changed since then. We are getting a new perspective on their squad. Laughable.
Yup

It’s where a lot of credit has to go to Pep. He has significantly improved some of those players

Also looking through his signings so far as at city. I didn’t realize he had purchased 17 or so players but most of them are gone on loan or not in the squad. So he has done excellent with the existing players and a few that he has added into the first team were mostly excellent additions

At the risk of feeling the wrath from the cafe, I would love to see what he could have done with Martial, Rashford, Shaw and Pogba.
 

RooneyLegend

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We've got too many underperforming players for these excuses to be valid. Shaw, Valencia, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Lukaku, Matic are all very good players but out of them only Matic and maybe Pogba are performing at their optimal level. Our attackers especially are having rather mediocre seasons. That is not down to their quality but more down to how they are being asked to play and that falls squarely on the manager.

No one is saying we haven't improved, but this isn't the sort of improvement I'd expect with the sort of investment that's gone on in the team. We're no better than lots of teams that don't invest nearly as much.

So what do we then do? Throw more money at the problem despite it being obvious that even the players we do sign we're not seeing the best of them? Knowing that our manager isn't the best for young players despite knowing that we have at least 3 youngsters with world class potential?