Some much needed perspective on the United and City squads

[fredthered]

Define better? The only poor result was the surprise league cup exit and that has happened under many managers. I think the Jose criticism is excessive. We’ve made progress under Jose and the squad has improved massively. There’s still work to do though.

I expect the excessive criticism from the media but lots of United fans are acting like spoilt kids.

Are you watching the same games I am ?

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Same thing has happened before under Ferguson. It's nothing new. He just managed to correct it before it became terrible. Now this is Mourinho's challenge.

Yes my point is it happened under Fergie during a strong run of performances that were either worthy of the title or challenging for one. Apart from our first 3 games, we have looked largely, well, shit. This isn’t some blip. These are problems bedded into our system which have not been addressed. This isn’t a blip.

 

[fredthered]

We are rebuilding and these things take time. It's the lack of patience from our fans that irks me. Look how long it took Fergie to turn us around when he first took over!

How people love to use this line time and time again that Fergie took a long time to turn United around.

Its not like Fergie inherited an awful squad of crap players. We had on paper the best team in the league by a country mile. Only months before United were close to breaking the record for the most consecutive wins at the start of a season. Only a stupid late goal away to Luton stopped Atkinson breaking the record. Had he broken that record and then not been unlucky with injuries, Atkinson wouldn't have been sacked. Oh and him agreeing to sell Hughes to Barca didn't endear him to United fans much either.

What the fans hated about Fergie in his early years wasn't that he inherited crap and was taking time to rebuild. He inherited some damn good players and those players who struggled to perform under Atkinson were also struggling under Fergie. In the first 5 years of Fergie being at United, Robson wasn't half as effective as he was under Atkinson.

Fergie didn't turn United around, he merely realised the potential that was already there. Jose hasn't got that problem. The players he has are not good enough to win the league ( five consecutive finishes of at least 15 points behind the league winners proves that ). Jose has a job 20 times harder than Fergie had, and i can promise you, its going to take Jose far more than the 5-6 years it took Fergie to start changing things.

 

[GunnerAlex]

Comparing the squads before both of them took over, the biggest comparison is the supposedly great front three City had before Pep arrived.

Martial was the most exciting young talent around at the time, and scored a shit load of goals, and definitely looked much better than Sterling did at the time.
Rashford wrecked us and everyone seemed to agree he'd have a bright future. City had some young guy taking the plaudits at that time too, but he never kicked on.
Depay was a promising winger, who never fit in for some reason. Doing well in Ligue 1. City hardly had some magical front 3 at the time, Aguero aside. They looked pretty shit.

At the back, City were a mess, and United were much, much, much better.

In midfield, no one was able to fit KdB and Silva into one midfield, and so Silva played out wide, which meant his lack of pace was exposed, and they weren't that great. Fernandinho was hardly some amazing player, and Yaya was on his last legs. On the other hand, Herrera looked class at the time, in fact, he looked like the best midfielder on both sides.

 

[haram]

I think this is a bit more relevant now with Mourinho’s latest press conference.

 

[Adisa]

You have to give it to Mourinho.
Completely changed the topic.
No one was comparing our squads until he did.

 

[Siorac]

You have to give it to Mourinho.
Completely changed the topic.
No one was comparing our squads until he did.

So much for 'taking the spotlight off the players' though.

 

[Litch]

You have to give it to Mourinho.
Completely changed the topic.
No one was comparing our squads until he did.

I think everyone has been comparing squads tbh a long time before he did. I'm not sure when anyone thought Smalling, Jones, Shaw, Rojo, Young or Felliani were the answer. Sorry I like Martial, Rashford, Lingard and Pogs but the inconsistency of their games in stupid, and you never know which ones are going to turn up on the day. They are either great or terrible and nothing in between. Sorry it wouldn't matter who was here with this squad, it's just not good enough..

 

[Massive Spanner]

I think this is a bit more relevant now with Mourinho’s latest press conference.

It's really not. Our squad was more than good enough to shit all over that Sevilla team. It's also arguably the best squad in the league after City's and yet Mourinho constantly resorts to (sometimes effective in fairness) underdog tactics to beat the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, and Pool.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I think everyone has been comparing squads tbh a long time before he did. I'm not sure when anyone thought Smalling, Jones, Shaw, Rojo, Young or Felliani were the answer. Sorry I like Martial, Rashford, Lingard and Pogs but the inconsistency of their games in stupid, and you never know which ones are going to turn up on the day. They are either great or terrible and nothing in between. Sorry it wouldn't matter who was here with this squad, it's just not good enough..

Our squad is fecking excellent. If SAF had it we'd probably be up there with city on points and doing much better in Europe.

 

[Minimalist]

You have to give it to Mourinho.
Completely changed the topic.
No one was comparing our squads until he did.

True that. Might become entertaining if he keeps the distractions.

"Oi Jose, the feck was that the other night?"

"Here, who remembers when Aguero scored that last minute goal and won the league for them boys across the road? Ferguson told me he had 300 bottles of red that week and punched the dog. Mad stuff."​

"...Aye suppose you're right. Any injuries for Saturday?"

 

[Greck]

So much for 'taking the spotlight off the players' though.

True. Taking the blame himself went out the window the moment he saw what it was really like

 

[Treble]

Prior to Guardiola and Jose, there wasn't a huge difference in quality between both squads. No coincidence that both teams finished on 66 pts in 2016.

When people say that City had a much better squad, they think only of City star players. Jose is right, City had more star players in KDB, Silva and Aguero (the latter was injury prone though, let's not forget that).

But people forget about the non-star players. And it's a horror show for City: Hart, Caballero, Sagna, Zabaleta, Demichelis, Kolarov, Fernando, Navas, Bony, Iheanacho, Toure (already way past it). Otamendi and Sterling were quite poor in 2015/16 and Kompany was already a sicknote.

For a club with City's financial resources and huge ambitions, their squad at the time was largely average. No surprise then that their results steeply declined from 2014 to 2016: 86 pts, 79 pts, 66 pts. Given their money power, their football directors were incredibly incompetent.

 

[haram]

It's really not. Our squad was more than good enough to shit all over that Sevilla team. It's also arguably the best squad in the league after City's and yet Mourinho constantly resorts to (sometimes effective in fairness) underdog tactics to beat the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal, and Pool.

I never said it wasn’t good enough to beat Sevilla. The point about the squad is a more general one.

 

[Adisa]

I think everyone has been comparing squads tbh a long time before he did. I'm not sure when anyone thought Smalling, Jones, Shaw, Rojo, Young or Felliani were the answer. Sorry I like Martial, Rashford, Lingard and Pogs but the inconsistency of their games in stupid, and you never know which ones are going to turn up on the day. They are either great or terrible and nothing in between. Sorry it wouldn't matter who was here with this squad, it's just not good enough..

He started comparing squads in response to what happened on Tuesday. Doesn't make sense to me but let's not derail the thread.
Our squad isn't as good as City's.
Don't think anyone would debate that.

 

[Litch]

Our squad is fecking excellent. If SAF had it we'd probably be up there with city on points and doing much better in Europe.

Sorry that's complete rubbish.....60% of that squad is million years from what we've been use to. I'm remember when you could do a combined team with either Barca, Bayern or Real and generally would be able to have a significant representation.....not anymore.

 

[Adisa]

Even Silva was poor the season before Pep arrived.
They had a better squad but I think k the difference is exaggerated.
The biggest compliment you can give Pep is the improvement in the players he inherited.
Pep had a tremendous amount of work to do when he arrived.

 

[haram]

Prior to Guardiola and Jose, there wasn't a huge difference in quality between both squads. No coincidence that both teams finished on 66 pts in 2016.

When people say that City had a much better squad, they think only of City star players. Jose is right, City had more star players in KDB, Silva and Aguero (the latter was injury prone though, let's not forget that).

But people forget about the non-star players. And it's a horror show for City: Hart, Caballero, Sagna, Zabaleta, Demichelis, Kolarov, Fernando, Navas, Bony, Iheanacho, Toure (already way past it). Otamendi and Sterling were quite poor in 2015/16 and Kompany was already a sicknote.

For a club with City's financial resources and huge ambitions, their squad at the time was largely average. No surprise then that their results steeply declined from 2014 to 2016: 86 pts, 79 pts, 69 pts. Given their money power, their football directors were incredibly incompetent.

And what was happening the 2 years before 2016? Is it not relevant in terms of the quality of City’s squad? They had league winners and top players. You are trying to use Pellegrini’s last season which was derailed to counter that?

 

[Paxi]

So much for 'taking the spotlight off the players' though.

Aye I'm protecting the lads but in truth they're not mine. In fact they're not good enough.

But I'm fully behind them.

 

[Treble]

And what was happening the 2 years before 2016? Is it not relevant in terms of the quality of City’s squad? They had league winners and top players. You are trying to use Pellegrini’s last season which was derailed to counter that?

There is a clear tendency in their form from 2014 (when they peaked) to 2016: steep decline. It's not only about the last season when they weren't doing brilliantly prior to Guardiola anouncement anyway. They did worse in 2014/15 than in 2013/14 and they were doing much worse in 2015/16. They had an aging and very uninspiring squad apart from 3 stars in Silva, Aguero and KDB.

 

[Adisa]

You can't discount City's two years of being shite prior to Pep and then take into account our own three years of being shot prior to Jose.
They were better, but don't act like the squad Pep met was ripe for success.
Among the squad Pep inherited, there are only about 3 players I would have taken at that time.

 

[haram]

There is a clear tendency in their form from 2014 (when they peaked) to 2016: steep decline. It's not only about the last season when they weren't doing brilliantly prior to Guardiola anouncement anyway. They did worse in 2014/15 than in 2013/14 and they were doing much worse in 2015/16. They had an aging and very uninspiring squad apart from 3 stars in Silva, Aguero and KDB.

If they were in a steep decline from 2014 what the feck was we in?

 

[Treble]

If they were in a steep decline from 2014 what the feck was we in?

LVG has made some progress compared to Moyes. United though did not have a good squad either (given the resources of the club).

 

[haram]

LVG has made some progress compared to Moyes. United did not have a good squad either (given the resource of the club).

Don’t jump and dance around it. What happened under Moyes and van Gaal was disastrous.

 

[Treble]

Don’t jump and dance around it. What happened under Moyes and van Gaal was disastrous.

Both clubs didn't have good enough squads. City had some stars which made it easier for them. But both squads needed a major overhaul.

 

[Skills]

You can't discount City's two years of being shite prior to Pep and then take into account our own three years of being shot prior to Jose.
They were better, but don't act like the squad Pep met was ripe for success.
Among the squad Pep inherited, there are only about 3 players I would have taken at that time.

This. It's fecking moronic.

 

[haram]

Both clubs didn't have good enough squads. City had some stars which made it easier for them. But both squads needed a major overhaul.

They had a better squad. They had players who had already challenged at the top. They had been ahead of us for three years straight, we had Moyes and van Gaal era, they have outspent us anyway. That’s the facts of it.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Are we really that far away from city? Or is it the manager? 2 years ago before Mou and Pep, who was considered a better Pogba or De Bruyne? Alexis or Sane? Martial or Sterling? and players that were good but not top quality like Fernandinho and Silva now look as world class under Pep, and players that were looked as top class like Pogba and Alexis now look shit under Mourinho.

The reality is Pep has improved largely their players, and average players now look good, and good players now look top class and Mourinho has made the top class looked average and some average look good but not great (Lingard, Young, McTominnay).

 

[haram]

You can't discount City's two years of being shite prior to Pep and then take into account our own three years of being shot prior to Jose.
They were better, but don't act like the squad Pep met was ripe for success.
Among the squad Pep inherited, there are only about 3 players I would have taken at that time.

They finished 1st, 2nd and then 4th in a season which was derailed. This doesn’t prove a lack of quality in the squad. Compare that to us finishing 7th, 4th and 5th and especially the recruitment under van Gaal.

 

[cletus7]

We are not at their level yet. City are sex. We are wank. white text for all you whinging fecks.

The difference between City and United isn’t about lists of players... it’s about coaching.

The real question to ask is what would happen if Pep and Mourinho swapped. That’s across 3 factors; 1. player development, 2. fan enjoyment, 3. win rate. What’s your answer?

 

[Adisa]

They finished 1st, 2nd and then 4th in a season which was derailed. This doesn’t prove a lack of quality in the squad. Compare that to us finishing 7th, 4th and 5th and especially the recruitment under van Gaal.

In both seasons and LVG, there wasn't much in it points wise.
Crux of it, at the point Pep got there, there are very few of their players we'd have wanted.
I can only think of Aguero, Silva and KDB.
You can only talk about recruitment in hindsight.
Pep did not meet a great squad and no amount of revisionism can change that.
Why do you think he's bought 17 players in less than two years?

 

[Adisa]

As I've said earlier. Their squad was better but lets not exaggerate how much better it was.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Sorry that's complete rubbish.....60% of that squad is million years from what we've been use to. I'm remember when you could do a combined team with either Barca, Bayern or Real and generally would be able to have a significant representation.....not anymore.

When was that though? 2008/09 maybe? This is arguably the best squad we've had since then, and that was probably the best squad we had under SAF

It's an excellent squad, not a Barca/Real squad, but those are very rare and difficult to obtain. Certainly our manager should be doing a lot better with it. Blaming the players we have is a lame excuse for a manager who came in with a huge reputation and has so far not delivered.

I never said it wasn’t good enough to beat Sevilla. The point about the squad is a more general one.

I made a very general point, I wasn't just talking about Sevilla, clearly, they were one of my examples. With the squad we have at our disposal you shouldn't be using underdog tactics to try beat your direct rivals, it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Don’t jump and dance around it. What happened under Moyes and van Gaal was disastrous.

He’s doing his best/worst to skew the narrative so badly it’s embarrasding the effort he’s going to.

 

[Cascarino]

I think this is a bit more relevant now with Mourinho’s latest press conference.

You're underrating your own players to make Mourinho look better.

 

[goin4glory]

Fans constantly overrate the team/squad we have. I'll believe we have a group that can win the title when they actually challenge for one. Or that they can beat the elite sides in europe when they go out and prove it. Right now it's just potential mixed with some bad signings.

 

[haram]

You're underrating your own players to make Mourinho look better.

Who am I underating? There wasn’t much quality coming out of the van Gaal squad.

 

[Paxi]

You can't discount City's two years of being shite prior to Pep and then take into account our own three years of being shot prior to Jose.
They were better, but don't act like the squad Pep met was ripe for success.
Among the squad Pep inherited, there are only about 3 players I would have taken at that time.

Exactly. There was a lot of talk of rebuilding City team. We're still talking about ours.

 

[Borden]

I love it when someone provides "some much needed perspective".

Thanks guy.

 

[haram]

Exactly. There was a lot of talk of rebuilding City team. We're still talking about ours.

Maybe because the rebuild job here was just bigger? That’s part of the point of the thread?