I think the Rashford one in particular sticks out. He successfully sent the keeper the wrong way, but then fractionally scuffed his shot, resulting in him hitting the post. If he'd been warmed up and played with the ball a bit more, hard not to think he might have got better contact there.
Southgate set Rashford and Sancho up for a fall.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Roberto Mancini at Wembley in a final against England: 66% possession.
Safe to say he outclassed him ffs
Pahahahaha.... That's fecking ridiculous
No surprise he changed his usual technique, quite clear that caught cold, he didn’t have the feel to put his foot through it.
I’m just as angry that an England manager who himself has suffered penalty defeat and knows how poor England’s record is, played for pens. That blows my mind.
Throwing on Sancho, Grealish and Rashford for extra time had to be done, all or nothing. Waiting out pens was a horrendous piece of management.
They absolutely still could have missed. Heck, maybe there wasn’t anything Southgate could have done differently that would have changed the outcome. Nothing is definite.
But it’s my opinion that he just didn’t set them to give them the best chance.
What would I have done differently?
Firstly, I would have understood the context. If you put players on with 1 minute to go, the whole world knows it’s because they will be taking penalties. You must consider the heightened pressure that immediately puts on a player. Just spare a thought for what they’d be thinking. On top of already shitting themselves because it’s such a pivotal moment for the country, you’ve now got the pressure of “everyone knows I’m only here to take a penalty. One job. What if I miss?” You’ll get the rare player who thrives in pressure and sees these opportunities as their moment to shine rather than see the fear of losing, but they are often highly experienced players. Not 19-23 year olds. And that mental strength and ability to handle pressure is rare. So what would I have done? Bring them on at, say, HT in extra time. They get their eye in, they have a chance to make a mark over and above that one specific penalty when it’s all on you.
Secondly, I’d have thought about my order some more. Ignoring that I disagree that Saka should be taking a penalty, if he is going to you must put him at a spot where the pressure is at its lightest. Which is usually spot 2 or 3 (not the first, not the one which will in and of itself cause defeat). I understand Kane at one because it’s key. But your next most “ready” player has to be at 5. Think of it this way, Maguire didn’t put in a brilliant penalty because he is technically better at them then Rashford or Sancho. He executed it because he had better control under the pressure (in my view).
For me, lastly, I wouldn’t have picked players based on who does the best at them in training. For me, I’d have based it on who has confidence. Who has faced adversity before. Who he knows can handle pressure. But this is hugely judgemental. Maybe those 3 were those players. I’d be surprised, but it’s possible. So I’m less focussed on this.
Like I said, anyone can miss. And maybe they would have anyway. But in already intense situation, the timing and order, in my opinion, further heightened the pressure on these young lads and without that extra burden, who knows? Maybe Rashfords shot is a few CM to the right and goes into the goal. We will never know.
Fair enough that is a quality post.
I think England were let down by a common trait with English football, they just couldn't keep hold of it. They were set up to be solid but the amount of times possession was given up, especially in the middle of the park, was extremely noticeable. The Italians were comfortable with the ball and dominated for long periods and didn't seem to panic, very few English players looked comfortable with the ball at their feet.
Luis Enrique's Spain had 70% possession against Italy, that game also finished 1-1, and Spain lost in penalties after missing two, just as many as Italy did this time. However, I don't hear people saying Mancini was 'found out' or anything like that.Roberto Mancini at Wembley in a final against England: 66% possession.
Safe to say he outclassed him ffs
I'm not saying that Southgate is beyond criticism, but there is an element of luck to penalties. People are attributing way too much certainty to it, especially considering that Italy missed two.
Southgate should have probably used them more throughout the tournament. It's bizarre to give them no gametime, and then put huge pressure on the shoulders of two players he hasn't trusted all tournament.
When you look at Italy, the likes of Berardi, Bernadeschi, Bellotti all featured throughout the tournament. For me, Mancini managed his squad much better, but who knows! Maybe it would have made no difference.
When you look at Italy, the likes of Berardi, Bernadeschi, Bellotti all featured throughout the tournament. For me, Mancini managed his squad much better, but who knows! Maybe it would have made no difference.
Also 19 shots to 6.Roberto Mancini at Wembley in a final against England: 66% possession.
Safe to say he outclassed him ffs
So, can safely assumed, in Southgate's book, basically Rashford and Sancho travelled with the team only as penalty specialist.
Southgate should not have played for penalties then. Leaving our best attacking talent on the bench for close to 120mins. In particular Grealish and Sancho (Rashford is due an operation so I understand resting him).
Then don't compound the error by getting Saka, a 19yr old kid, to take a penalty over experienced top club players and bring on 2 players who have barely kicked a ball and are not warmed up to take key penalties.
Disasterclass in game management. He had home advantage and and easy route to the final. Fecked it and fecked over 3 players in Saka, Rashford and Sancho.
Nah they just took some crap penalties which is fine.
He probably made a mistake in giving Saka so many minutes over those 2 and Grealish and it was definitely incredibly stupid to put Rashford at right back when Saka was still on the pitch.
He probably made a mistake in giving Saka so many minutes over those 2 and Grealish and it was definitely incredibly stupid to put Rashford at right back when Saka was still on the pitch.
England played practically without specialized center midfield. Defense, DM and then directly striker and wingers. I don't count Mount as someone who can control the midfield. He was there just to perform defensive duty IMO. How England would cope in the middle with this set up? Need someone who can turn and run with the ball, like Grealish and Sancho. Yesterday was midfield surrender by Southgate.
Asking Sancho and Saka to take penalties was unfair to both of them. Rashford, who I sympathise with, is experienced enough and should have done better.
Have you seen the rest of them, sure he blasted it but it was accurate. Honestly who's better than him from the spot?
I would add to this that we know Rashford often needs time to warm-up/get into a game. How many times have we seen him miss a chance in the first 5 minutes of the game? Only to then score 10/20 minutes later.
Impossible to know for sure of course, but I wager a Rashford with 20 minutes under his belt scores that penalty.
Questions need to be asked of Kane, he supposed to be Captain. I didnt see him show much leadership last night.
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But Southgate chose the penalty takers. He said so himself.
And it was clearly done before the game with the way he brought Saka, Rashford, and Sancho on.
Which was the worst decision he made, I don't care how good he takes a penalty in training, Saka is 19 years old, first international tournament, has he even taken a penalty in a game? and he puts him on to take the last penalty, even when he needs to score? Absolutely crazy decision making, if he was so intent on keeping those 5 penalty takers he should of let the youngsters go first.
If they were brought on for any other reason than they had been practicing penalties and were banging them in during training, then the players would see through it and lose all confidence and respect in the manager. We'd be hearing about it.
Rashford overthought it. Doing a combo of Pogba/Bruno/Ronaldo was disastrous. I thought I saw Grealish saying ‘yes’ (he’d take one) in the huddle with Southgate. Sancho looked pretty scared on his run up too (compared to the Italian)
I think so too.
I think as well because Donnaruma is so good, you either have to send the penalty dead flat into the corner or high into the corner. Both Sancho and Saka sent theirs sort of medium height, which he saved easily.
Game should never have got to pens, poor game management by Southgste IMO,, Mancini had Side hes changed all Tournanent, most of those outfield players if not all had minutes.
Southgate did not want to change the system, Mancini reacted to Englands 3 defenders. Southgate changed nothing . Kane was anonymous for all of 2nd half and extra time. Then to throw 2 players on with a 1 min to go then expect them to score a pen. Awful man managment . Englands best attacking players were on the bench and stayed there whole competition. Why bother picking them in the squad if there not able to rotate within his playing style. A chance big big one missed by poor game managment . ITALY were well deserved winners .
Southgate did not want to change the system, Mancini reacted to Englands 3 defenders. Southgate changed nothing . Kane was anonymous for all of 2nd half and extra time. Then to throw 2 players on with a 1 min to go then expect them to score a pen. Awful man managment . Englands best attacking players were on the bench and stayed there whole competition. Why bother picking them in the squad if there not able to rotate within his playing style. A chance big big one missed by poor game managment . ITALY were well deserved winners .
I enjoyed your thoughtful post
That's top class from Ronnie. But this is not on Kane. This is on Southgate 100%. I fail to see how people can blame Rashford, Sancho, Saka, or Kane for that matter. I thought at the time (118 minutes) that bringing on two players he's shown very little belief in, to bail him out in a shootout when the experienced boys (and those in favour) go quiet, is frankly, crazy. It's one thing to bring on a keeper who is a pen expert. Or even to bring on an experienced player who is used to taking pens. But this was just bonkers. And explained by the manager that in training this is how it works. Where there is absolutely no pressure whatsoever.
He's not a terrible manager, not even bad. For the International stage he's brought a lot of respect and humility. A model pro who - like many - doesn't have original ideas or true courage of his convictions. He's done much better than I would have expected. But that shootout was on him.
Danny Murphy on talksport backed this up, said every single pro knows the last thing you’d want to do is take a penalty in that pressure after not even having a kick of the ball. Mentioned how it becomes completely different once you’re warmed up and have a feel of the ball.
fecked em over so badly the arsewipe, so so unfair.
fecked em over so badly the arsewipe, so so unfair.
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Completely agree. Yet most people still want him as England's manager for Qatar 2022.
This really annoyed me. Rashford clearly overthought his pen, but then, why wouldn’t he!? What else is he going to be thinking about all that time standing there waiting to come on specifically to take one!
Lads, I am Irish but United through and through. Red blood flows in my veins and has flowed from my body in battles back in the 70s & 80 before I got sense!
Southgate was a bang average player and is a bang average manager. He had all the aces in his hand yesterday and he still blew it. Way too Conservative. Sancho, Rashford, Foden, Grealish & Saka on the bench and starts 5 defenders plus 2 defensive minds?
Bullshit.
Southgate was a bang average player and is a bang average manager. He had all the aces in his hand yesterday and he still blew it. Way too Conservative. Sancho, Rashford, Foden, Grealish & Saka on the bench and starts 5 defenders plus 2 defensive minds?
Bullshit.
I think whats missed everyones attention is that southgate subbed off two defenders in order to bring in rashford and sancho for the pens. However, the substitutions took place just before the corner kick, the odds of italy scoring from that corner significantly rose when two defenders were taken off. It would have been hilarious if they had scored and made southgate look like a right tit.
I worried about that too. Southgate is a lucky boy his idiocy didn't result in an immediate conceded goal.
No shit. Rashford miss sent the pressure through the roof and Italy going ahead only added to it.
Absolutely true.
So when Sancho stepped up his legs would have been like jelly, and he ended up producing a tame effort that was telegraphed all the way.
When Saka stepped up, he had what would have felt like the weight of the World on his shoulders, and that was a lot of pressure to take on 19 year old shoulders.
What people are completely ignoring is that Rashford did not look at the football when he struck his penalty.
Whether a player has been on the pitch for 1 minute or 120 minutes makes no difference as you are always at risk of not striking the ball cleanly when you are not looking at it.
The captain is supposed to be the best placed individual to know the pulse of the entire team. It's even more disappointing to see this from Cristiano and then compare it to Kane's absence of visible leadership. TBH, Kane should be the one talking in the name of the players and tell Southgate that we have to go with those with more experience in the side. Regardless of who makes the final decision, the worst thing to do is to let the weight of the entire world fall upon the shoulders of the kids.
This is where the manager has failed to include other parameters in the equation. It's one thing to see who is doing better at penalties in training, when there are no cameras and no crowd to see how players would cope. Arriving in a final and getting into match pace are necessary, even to take penalties. Why? It's because the players need to impregnate themselves with the moment and the surroundings in order to have a proper feel. Rashford and Sancho could have been brought on a lot earlier to reinvigorate the English attack when it was clear that Mount and Sterling were out of gas. Even if they didn't score before the 120 minutes were finished, they would have had at least a good feel of the ball, the pitch, the crowd, etc.
And no disrespect to Saka, he looked like a poor deer looking into headlights. He may go on to become a top class player in a few years, but bringing him on yesterday was just too much for him to handle. He was doomed to fail almost from the moment he came on.
Exactly. I remember Anderson coming on in injury time in our final against Chelsea. He didn't touch ball and yet went on to score a massive penalty in the shootouts. People just don't want to accept that penalties are subject to too many variables. There is no one proven method that will give the likeliest chance to win.
THey both are attackers. Fresh legs, and experienced. All the blame should be on them for not scoring from 12 yards out; with only Gk between the stick and no pressure from other opponents. Why are there many lame excuses?
Everyone make mistake, even GOATs. Giving them excuse won't do them any good, and make us look silly.
Everyone make mistake, even GOATs. Giving them excuse won't do them any good, and make us look silly.
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No, but this post makes you look like an idiot.
More than penalties, i think this is the main issue that led to England losing. With the likes of Belligham, Grealish and Henderson on the bench it was too cowardly a set up from England. Saka is the only questionable choice on penalties anyways but to just give up the midfield was a huge tactical error.