Squad balance in the Spurs game

[Teja]

Think the line-up / formation against Spurs is the most balanced one we can put out with our current set of players. Thoughts?

------------------------------ Henderson ------------------------------
---- AwB ----------- Lindelof ---- Maguire ----- Shaw ------
------------------------- McT ------ Fred -------------------------------
--- Rashford -------------- Bruno ------- Pogba ----------------
------------------------------ Cavani --------------------------------------

Couple of thoughts:

1. Rashford + Greenwood on the flanks doesn't really work because neither player's primary strength is chance creation. Both want to get on the end of things. Add Cavani to this and there's barely any creativity across the front-3. Yes, Greenwood's improving his dribbling / crossing and Rashford can sometimes beat his man / find a nice pass to Shaw but neither can consistently create goal scoring chances week-in week-out.
2. Pogba in the left half space is destructive. Doesn't have to do the dirty work that the #8 position requires, doesn't have to be as disciplined positionally or dedicate as much to tracking runners from midfield. If he's not displacing Bruno from that #10 role, this is probably his second best role in the squad.
3. Pogba at the LAM / LW type role means Rashford nominally starts on the right. But we've seen enough rotation (Bruno drifting to the right, Rashford + Cavani through the middle, Pogba moving to #10 etc.) through out the game that it's not that big a deal. Resting Rashford and starting Greenwood is an option as well. This also sets us up well for Sancho because he plays both LW / RW as well and can swap positions with Rashford through out the game.
4. People have their gripes about Fred + McT but that midfield fulfills its function against most PL sides. They provide an adequate screen for the defence, can progress the ball up the field and chip in with an odd goal here and there. Against the very top pressing sides like City / Pool they struggle and it's an area that can use some investment, but it's not as big an issue as people make it out to be. At any rate we're talking balance with the current set of players, so for me Fred + McT at CM with Pogba on the left is better than Fred + Pogba at CM and Rashford + Greenwood on the flanks.

 

[Fitchett]

It worked a treat on Sunday. Maybe a more attacking player, such as Greenwood, to replace either McTominay or Fred, against a lesser, bus parking team at Old Trafford, would be a preferable change in those circumstances.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

It’s all game dependent for me. I’d like to have Greenwood on the pitch at all times currently and Rashford is definitely more effective on the left but yes midfield wise that lineup is probably the best against stronger sides

 

[A-man]

I like the fact that we played two creative central midfielders, since our strikers don’t score many goals on crosses and our wingers don’t create much. Three of four midfielders are also good ball winners which helps us dominating the midfield.

 

[youngrell]

I’ve liked Pogba on the left pretty much every time he’s featured there.

He presses surprisingly well, seems to put a lot more energy into his overall running too and is left with much less defensive work, freeing him up to do what he does best.

 

[Okey]

Think the line-up / formation against Spurs is the most balanced one we can put out with our current set of players. Thoughts?

------------------------------ Henderson ------------------------------
---- AwB ----------- Lindelof ---- Maguire ----- Shaw ------
------------------------- McT ------ Fred -------------------------------
--- Rashford -------------- Bruno ------- Pogba ----------------
------------------------------ Cavani --------------------------------------

Couple of thoughts:

1. Rashford + Greenwood on the flanks doesn't really work because neither player's primary strength is chance creation. Both want to get on the end of things. Add Cavani to this and there's barely any creativity across the front-3. Yes, Greenwood's improving his dribbling / crossing and Rashford can sometimes beat his man / find a nice pass to Shaw but neither can consistently create goal scoring chances week-in week-out.
2. Pogba in the left half space is destructive. Doesn't have to do the dirty work that the #8 position requires, doesn't have to be as disciplined positionally or dedicate as much to tracking runners from midfield. If he's not displacing Bruno from that #10 role, this is probably his second best role in the squad.
3. Pogba at the LAM / LW type role means Rashford nominally starts on the right. But we've seen enough rotation (Bruno drifting to the right, Rashford + Cavani through the middle, Pogba moving to #10 etc.) through out the game that it's not that big a deal. Resting Rashford and starting Greenwood is an option as well. This also sets us up well for Sancho because he plays both LW / RW as well and can swap positions with Rashford through out the game.
4. People have their gripes about Fred + McT but that midfield fulfills its function against most PL sides. They provide an adequate screen for the defence, can progress the ball up the field and chip in with an odd goal here and there. Against the very top pressing sides like City / Pool they struggle and it's an area that can use some investment, but it's not as big an issue as people make it out to be. At any rate we're talking balance with the current set of players, so for me Fred + McT at CM with Pogba on the left is better than Fred + Pogba at CM and Rashford + Greenwood on the flanks.

Mata (if he still had the legs) in place of Rashford on the right would be even better based on your points. Might be worth trying against a low block team even now. McFred can hoover up anything that makes it past that front 4.

 

[arthurka]

Fred isn't a good footballer but he runs a lot. Still think this formation lacks natural wingers.

 

[city-puma]

against Spurs, pogba became much more efficient when having a more free positioning, he stayed on left a lot but immediately came to life when floating to the center and inside the box. Sticking to one side limits his affluence and slow down our attack sometimes, cause he always drew several opponent players right after receiving ball.

 

[Listar]

It worked a treat on Sunday. Maybe a more attacking player, such as Greenwood, to replace either McTominay or Fred, against a lesser, bus parking team at Old Trafford, would be a preferable change in those circumstances.

Where do you find a lesser, bus parking team than Mourinho's?

 

[roonster09]

I don't think it was balanced, Pogba as a winger in one of the game is fine, playing him all the time won't be a good idea.

Anyways it should depend on opponents, against stronger teams we can play 2 other CMs, Pogba and Bruno, but against most of the teams, Pogba should be in midfield alongside Fred/McTominay.

It would be better if we can switch to 4-3-3.

 

[Borys]

Pogba did extremely well on that left hand side, it's surprising Ole is so stubborn to play him in midfield where he is half the player. But I am not a fan of this formation, we've seen it a few times and I always feel like the movement is very random, and the distance between front 4 is quite big. It worked great against Tottenham but I'm pretty sure we would've thrashed them anyway, they were just very passive defensively and can't press.

Against better sides we need more structure because I think it'll be easy to defend against this formation.

Greenwood should be the first man on the team sheet, the only question really is which one of Rashford and Pogba are better on the left.

 

[Longshanks]

What it showed is two things.
1. Releasing pogba of his defensive responsibilities really does bring the best out in him receiving the ball in the opposition's half rather than our half makes all the difference, he was even playing as a target man at some points.

2. Having a proper centre forward is key to how we want to play, Ole has said himself he likes to to have a CF to play off and around, Cavani produced a proper CF display the likes of which we havent seen alot of this season, buying a CF I think is now our no1 priority this summer.

A final point on rashford on the right, I dont think its makes much of a difference his performance was no worse on the right on Sunday than what alot of his performances on the left have been recently, hes not in a good form and clearly struggling with injuries a little. But when fit and in form IMO he is just as good from the right as he is from left.

 

[The Boy]

Where do you find a lesser, bus parking team than Mourinho's?

 

[MinGin]

What it showed is two things.
1. Releasing pogba of his defensive responsibilities really does bring the best out in him receiving the ball in the opposition's half rather than our half makes all the difference, he was even playing as a target man at some points.

2. Having a proper centre forward is key to how we want to play, Ole has said himself he likes to to have a CF to play off and around, Cavani produced a proper CF display the likes of which we havent seen alot of this season, buying a CF I think is now our no1 priority this summer.

A final point on rashford on the right, I dont think its makes much of a difference his performance was no worse on the right on Sunday than what alot of his performances on the left have been recently, hes not in a good form and clearly struggling with injuries a little. But when fit and in form IMO he is just as good from the right as he is from left.

Agree
1. This is a topic for years ago, to find a proper DM can do the job who McT+Fred did solely and we will see Burno and Pogba combination in attacking. But, "will Pogba renew his contract" is a big question mark in this summer.

2. a aged Cavani provide a different dimension to introduce the function of proper centre forward. Also, in the SAF era, he always spent big in this position who have quantity to ensure the score line consistently and effectiveness.

3. I do think that it is better to put Rashford to sit on the bench recently and sub him when we have trouble in the field. His injury cause him shoot less and complete a dribble less.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I said the same thing as OP, it unleashes Bruno and Pogba but keeps defensive solidity. It might be our best 11.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I’ve said for a while I think Pogba on the left gets the best out of him allowing him to drift about. But there were times where he was miles out of position, which gave Luke Shaw issues and Fred had to scramble across to help out due to Pogba off wondering around.

Spurs targeted it and Lucas and Aurier went after it and Pep has done something similar in a few games becuase he’s knows we allow some freedom to whomever is on the left.

Personally I think it’s worked better with Martial as he naturally drifts to the left and Bruno often just ends up playing as a striker or 2nd striker and Pogba tends to drift in to that vacated Bruno space. When it isn’t Pogba it’s martial filling in there.

I also think that Rashford on the right gives better team performances than being on the left. He seems far more open to passing and linking with people coming off the right and just seems to have a much better well rounded game off the right.

Who knows what happens this summer and where we go from there because if Pogba leaves, Sancho comes in Cavani leaves then we’ll have an entire new set of problems.

 

[Teja]

It would be better if we can switch to 4-3-3.

I don't think this is going to happen. People keep asking for an out and out DM but Ole has never shown any interest in playing a standard 4-3-3 like Pool / City do. We've tried the diamond, Bruno at false 9, 5 at the back but 4-2-3-1 with two #8s in the midfield is his bread and butter formation.

Anyways it should depend on opponents, against stronger teams we can play 2 other CMs, Pogba and Bruno, but against most of the teams, Pogba should be in midfield alongside Fred/McTominay.

Again comes back to my argument that if you push Pogba to CM, he'll be more effective than either Fred / McT there but we'll have issues further up the field when both Rashford, Greenwood come narrow. Hard to beat low block teams this way.

 

[Dante]

It worked against Spurs. But it didn't work against Arsenal a few weeks ago.

Spoiler

 

[Teja]

Mata (if he still had the legs) in place of Rashford on the right would be even better based on your points. Might be worth trying against a low block team even now. McFred can hoover up anything that makes it past that front 4.

I feel like we've tried Mata on the right quite a few times during pre-Bruno times and it worked fairly well. It was Pogba at #10, Mata on the right + Rashford / Martial at LW / CF and it worked pretty well but we never got a chance to really play it consistently due to injuries. (Pogba was out for a long time and Martial / Rashford took turns being injured if I remember correctly.)

Might be too late for Mata now but Ole did play VdB wide last couple of sub appearances, so that might be something we try in the future.

 

[Teja]

Bruno often just ends up playing as a striker or 2nd striker and Pogba tends to drift in to that vacated Bruno space.

Yeah this is a good point. Heatmaps from a couple of games:

Brighton (LCM)

Spurs (LM)

He does take up the space that Bruno vacates (esp on the left half space) quite a bit when he plays at CM. He also does come deep quite a bit and gets involved in the build up play.

Maybe the heatmap doesn't tell the whole story but I always felt he was a bit more reserved when attacking because he has to get in position to defend against counter attacks etc. when playing through the middle.

 

[Teja]

It worked against Spurs. But it didn't work against Arsenal a few weeks ago.

Spoiler

Yup good point. Very dross affair as well from what I remember. Arsenal are sort of Ole's bogey team though, so willing to treat that as a one-off.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Yeah this is a good point. Heatmaps from a couple of games:

Brighton (LCM)

Spurs (LM)

He does take up the space that Bruno vacates (esp on the left half space) quite a bit when he plays at CM. He also does come deep quite a bit and gets involved in the build up play.

Maybe the heatmap doesn't tell the whole story but I always felt he was a bit more reserved when attacking because he has to get in position to defend against counter attacks etc. when playing through the middle.

I would certainly say he tries to play within himself when he is in the two unless we are on top of a team. I just don’t see how a 433 works with he and Bruno as even now when Pogba plays in the two he can go for a wonder further up so it’s like we are kind of playing 433 but then Bruno is no where to be seen as he’s playing striker or he’s out on a wing doing Bruno things. Then we have this issue where we leave Fred alone in midfield with no passing options and not a lot of help.

I think Bruno and Pogba still need the two behind them to let them go do what they are good at secure in the knowledge they have two pit bulls covering the rear. Personally I like 433 but I don’t think Pogba or Bruno can play in the manner needed to do it.

 

[Robindinho]

It worked against Spurs. But it didn't work against Arsenal a few weeks ago.

Didn’t Mctominay come off injured after about 30 minutes for Martial? (With Pogba then moving into midfield).

Needed McT to stay on and we would have unleashed our 2nd half beast mode.

 

[Teja]

I would certainly say he tries to play within himself when he is in the two unless we are on top of a team. I just don’t see how a 433 works with he and Bruno as even now when Pogba plays in the two he can go for a wonder further up so it’s like we are kind of playing 433 but then Bruno is no where to be seen as he’s playing striker or he’s out on a wing doing Bruno things. Then we have this issue where we leave Fred alone in midfield with no passing options and not a lot of help.

I think Bruno and Pogba still need the two behind them to let them go do what they are good at secure in the knowledge they have two pit bulls covering the rear. Personally I like 433 but I don’t think Pogba or Bruno can play in the manner needed to do it.

Yeah totally - I'm not advocating for a 4-3-3. I'm just saying Pogba comes in at LW for the rest of the games this season with McT + Fred as the starting #8s even against smaller clubs. I think at has more balance than Pogba + Fred / McT through the middle with Rashford / Greenwood / Cavani as the front 3.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Pogba playing wide provides lot of benefits to him. He will have more freedom to roam and more space to take touches doing his skills. Fred & McTominay in there not just to protect the centre backs but also to give license to let Pogba and Bruno do their things. And then we have two goal scorers who can score goals (Cavani & Mason/Rashford) from Pogba, Bruno & Shaw services. Two of our centre backs are capable to play from the back too. However, this work perfectly if we play against the top 12 teams not the bottom 8 teams. Against the bottom 8 ones, we don't need McT & Fred together to provide protection, this is where in my opinion someone like VDB can fill in the spot against the bottom 8 teams, play next to McT or Fred. And I want Pogba to stay in that wide position because that's the position he will get lot of freedom to express himself and increase his chance to get more goals and assists.