Stars and Reserves Draft R1: Brwned vs Pat / Sjor Bepo - Finished 9 : 9

[Brwned]

As a rule I'm not a fan of messing with the poll timings by allowing votes to count after the poll closes etc. This match was a different situation but it's a good example of the bad-feeling and general messiness that can arise:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/wc-all-stars-chain-draft-round-1-crappy-vs-arbitrium.439045/

In this case though I'm happy enough with whatever happens as 1) MJJ only missed the voting by a slim margin 2) there's honestly precious little between the two teams and 3) frankly it's a big boost for the quality of discussion in the drafts overall if you stay involved.

So Sjor and I are both offically fannying out of making any decision on this whatsoever and turning it over to yourself and the mods to decide @Enigma_87 @Don Alfredo

Likewise! If this is based on a historical principle, and the draft community thinks it really is damaging to show any flexibility on it, then I'm happy to leave it with that. But I genuinely would give you the win in the reverse scenario!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Likewise! If this is based on a historical principle, and the draft community thinks it really is damaging to show any flexibility on it, then I'm happy to leave it with that. But I genuinely would give you the win in the reverse scenario!

I'm certain that's the case as I do recall you expressing similar sentiments in old matches . Let's leave it in the hands of the moderators!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Impressed with the calibre of the debate so far lads.

A lot of support for @Brwned's approach in choosing the right personnel for those tactics. It's very difficult to play an aggressively high line which is why so few defenders in history have any sort of credible track record and haven't been hopelessly embarrassed. But pulling it off makes a huge difference in enabling a team to positionally dominate a game. Within this pool that back four is almost as good as you could get in defending high and commanding the ball.

Can't quite split it now though, @Pat_Mustard and @Šjor Bepo have a really solid back six for combatting that approach.

In the Maicon/Cambiasso/Maxwell scenario above it's hard to say who is at fault without knowing what happened a few seconds earlier. Has Cambiasso been rinsed from a safe position or was he trying to put out a fire that was growing and which Maicon should have tried to shut off before it blew up on the bye line?

Great game lads. Very tough to separate myself and well argued on both sides.

This goes down to keeper tie breaker.

And the panel of judges including harms, Raees, antohan and myself have counted the votes.

The winner is...

Great debate from both sides.

You are all winners!! (or something like that)

Good game this with a good dose of handbags

@Brwned I do have a visceral dislike for Leandro (non-football, he manhandled a ballboy once a the Centenario, similar to a incident with a Chelsea player some years back). Excellent attacking fullback in the Brazilian mould (takes the inevitable risks but delivers width all by himself). Would have him about level with Maicon myself once you factor in eras, fitness, sports science, etc.

The issue is one faces Oleh Blokhin in a counter-attacking setup and the other faces Sane defending deep for the most part. Blokhin is a Ballon d'Or and positional GOAT in his element and Sane is a very talented and impressive young player who didn't make the cut for the last WC (rightly or not, same applies to Martial).

It's clear Sane could have a good game and I actually was of the idea he would be the hardest to control out of your front three (genuinely can't see the other two prevailing). But I had a hard time swallowing that the player with the most flimsy track record on the pitch would be the one settling it.

T'was a nice read, indeed.

@Brwned
@Pat_Mustard
@Šjor Bepo

Also impressed by the quality of the debates. Certainly the best thread in this draft.

At first sight, I vote for Brwned, simply because the blue team seems to be a strikerless team but (1) I haven't watched the videos made for the occasion and (2) some of your posts deserve to be reread.

A lot of things to say, I will comment on Monday

Glad it was a good thread for the neutrals. It was a fun and challenging match to take part in too. Memory was pretty fecking hazy when I woke up this morning so I was just relieved that I managed to form fairly coherent sentences in my later posts last night

 

[Brwned]

Glad it was a good thread for the neutrals. It was a fun and challenging match to take part in too. Memory was pretty fecking hazy when I woke up this morning so I was just relieved that I managed to form fairly coherent sentences in my later posts last night

I thought it was pretty impressive for a drunken Irishman art 4am at the time!

I enjoyed it too. Great videos by the way. I only managed to watch the Francescoli and De Gea ones yesterday, was kinda blown away by the Francescoli video tbh! I thought he was a great pick as a false 9 but had no idea he could be a one-man attack like that. Had to throw one of my main arguments out the window straight away!

Just watched the Reus and Maicon videos now and they're really good representations of a typical game from them. If similar videos were made for a player from the 60s, they'd seem a bit underwhelming, but given they're known entities I think it's better that it doesn't give any sense of inflated status - we can fill in the blanks with their really special games!

Really like Reus as a pick for drafts. To me he's an ideal choice. Injured too often to have season after season of brilliant performances, so flies under the radar vs. the other big names, but was so good at his peak and had more than enough peak periods to feel comfortable that's his level. Would've liked to have seen him in England actually! Who d'you reckon is better out of him and Salah? I felt like I had to get Salah at the time to recreate the Laudrup-Stoichkov partnership, as after you'd taken Blokhin () I was sure there was no other star player I'd want for that role and Salah was the standout non-star. Seeing you pick Reus 10th definitely gave me second thoughts though!!

P.S. I did try to make one for Szymaniak but just couldn't be arsed...don't know how you guys have the patience for it! But then I suppose you probably think the same about my data visualisation thing. It's amazing the things we can convince ourselves to do with our free time!

 

[Brwned]

By the way folks, came across a genuinely incredible stat about "Gegenpressing" from this short video from Jonathan Wilson yesterday.

So effective is the tactic, the proportion of open play goals scored on the counter-attack in Champions League has almost halved in the last decade.

It feels like a really counter-intuitive consequence of the tactic until you watch games like Liverpool vs. City, or a couple of games of Klopp vs. Guardiola earlier in Germany, where the pressing is so effective that they really don't get a chance to string together a couple of good passes to make the counter happen.

Full (short) video here:


I did some searching on it and here's the proper figures:

There is a section in Uefa’s technical report on last season’s Champions League headed “Counters are key”. In it, the former Werder Bremen coach Thomas Schaaf makes the very reasonable point that quick counterattacks are something Barcelona added last season, that their game became about more than wearing the opposition down through possession.

But the report also delivers a highly-telling statistic: that 20.6% of all goals scored from open play in the Champions League last season were from counters. The figure is presented as though it is a lot, but it is down from 23% in 2013-14 and 27% the season before that.

In 2005-06 a report put together by the technical director of Uefa, Andy Roxburgh, suggested as many as 40% of all goals from open play came from counterattacks. In other words, the proportion of goals scored from counters has almost halved over the last decade.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I thought it was pretty impressive for a drunken Irishman art 4am at the time!

I enjoyed it too. Great videos by the way. I only managed to watch the Francescoli and De Gea ones yesterday, was kinda blown away by the Francescoli video tbh! I thought he was a great pick as a false 9 but had no idea he could be a one-man attack like that. Had to throw one of my main arguments out the window straight away!

Just watched the Reus and Maicon videos now and they're really good representations of a typical game from them. If similar videos were made for a player from the 60s, they'd seem a bit underwhelming, but given they're known entities I think it's better that it doesn't give any sense of inflated status - we can fill in the blanks with their really special games!

Really like Reus as a pick for drafts. To me he's an ideal choice. Injured too often to have season after season of brilliant performances, so flies under the radar vs. the other big names, but was so good at his peak and had more than enough peak periods to feel comfortable that's his level. Would've liked to have seen him in England actually! Who d'you reckon is better out of him and Salah? I felt like I had to get Salah at the time to recreate the Laudrup-Stoichkov partnership, as after you'd taken Blokhin () I was sure there was no other star player I'd want for that role and Salah was the standout non-star. Seeing you pick Reus 10th definitely gave me second thoughts though!!

P.S. I did try to make one for Szymaniak but just couldn't be arsed...don't know how you guys have the patience for it! But then I suppose you probably think the same about my data visualisation thing. It's amazing the things we can convince ourselves to do with our free time!

The one 'what the feck?' moment for me today was:

That's a fair summation of the biggest match of their career.

Written completely without irony, when it quite clearly wasn't a fecking fair summation as I'd only copy and pasted the negative bits .

We'd actually picked Enzo intending to use him either as a false 9 or left-sided forward in a 4-3-3, but changed our minds after seeing how good he was in a more traditional CF role. Sjor compared his back to goal play with Mark Hughes in our convo and it made sense to me. I knew he was good but it's been a revelation watching him in more detail and I basically love the man now. The obvious comparisons for me when I was beginning to assess him were his contemporaries as AM/SS geniuses Laudrup and Roberto Baggio and while I haven't really seen him produce a passing masterclass to their level yet, his dribbling is extraordinary, as his attitude, and he's got facets to his game that the other two lack in terms of his strength, sheer physical resilience, and resultant ability to operate as a lone centre-forward. More videos from various stages of his career to follow I think, regardless of who goes through here.

Agreed on the Reus and especially the Maicon videos. I was bored to tears making the Maicon one as it was so long and (barring the brilliant goal) so unbelievably repetitive. Honestly though my concentration span is so incredibly shite that starting one of those videos is about as effective a way as I've found to actually make sure I watch the entire match and concentrate fully. The amount of old matches I've sat down to watch, before finding myself doing something else entirely after 15 minutes, is unreal. Makes it all the more impressive that you've seen virtually all of the post-footage era WC semi-finals in their entirety as I'm nowhere near doing so to be honest. Also, making one of those videos makes me feel like I'm actually doing something semi-constructive here as opposed to just waffling away endlessly for thousands of posts, and I imagine you feel similarly about the data visualisation.

The interesting thing about the Maicon video for me was comparing the end result to an all-touches video I made for Silvio Marzolini. The difference stylistically and in terms of their roles was just night and day really. Over the years in drafts we've tended to grant the Niltons and Facchettis near-superhero status, and probably sold the better recent FBs (including Leandro for sure) really short in comparison in failing to acknowledge the sheer amount of ground they cover, in addition to how technically accomplished and well-rounded they are. There's still far more research to be done there, and sadly probably inadequate footage, but the evolution of the full back role is very interesting to us draft forum anorak-types.

As regards Reus vs Salah, I think I'd still go with Reus with very little confidence that my choice will stand the test of time well. I rate his all-around game so highly and along with Messi and Modric he's probably the non-Utd player I enjoy watching most these days. It's worth pointing out too that he's put up fairly prodigious numbers while mostly being his team's secondary goalscorer behind the likes of Lewandowski and Aubameyang. I will point out that I still refuse to give a definitive answer as to who was better between van Nistelrooy and Henry, so I'll acknowledge that I'm liable to be swayed by bias at times .

 

[Brwned]

The one 'what the feck?' moment for me today was:

Written completely without irony, when it quite clearly wasn't a fecking fair summation as I'd only copy and pasted the negative bits .

I really couldn't figure out if you were taking the piss on that one! Thought it was really funny either way.

We'd actually picked Enzo intending to use him either as a false 9 or left-sided forward in a 4-3-3, but changed our minds after seeing how good he was in a more traditional CF role. Sjor compared his back to goal play with Mark Hughes in our convo and it made sense to me. I knew he was good but it's been a revelation watching him in more detail and I basically love the man now. The obvious comparisons for me when I was beginning to assess him were his contemporaries as AM/SS geniuses Laudrup and Roberto Baggio and while I haven't really seen him produce a passing masterclass to their level yet, his dribbling is extraordinary, as his attitude, and he's got facets to his game that the other two lack in terms of his ability to operate as a lone centre-forward. More videos from various stages of his career to follow I think, regardless of who goes through here.

Look forward to it! Agreed about his dribbling. Zidane's reverence for him at the start of @antohan's video is really telling too. He managed to amaze Zidane with his skill while still being this productive, selfless, reliable forward. Quite something.

Agreed on the Reus and especially the Maicon videos. I was bored to tears making the Maicon one as it was so long and (barring the brilliant goal) so unbelievably repetitive. Honestly though my concentration span is so incredibly shite that starting one of those videos is about as effective a way as I've found to actually make sure I watch the entire match and concentrate fully. The amount of old matches I've sat down to watch, before finding myself doing something else entirely after 15 minutes, is unreal. Makes it all the more impressive that you've seen virtually all of the post-footage era WC semi-finals in their entirety as I'm nowhere near doing so to be honest. Also, making one of those videos makes me feel like I'm actually doing something semi-constructive here as opposed to just waffling away endlessly for thousands of posts, and I imagine you feel similarly about the data visualisation.

I'm getting a bit more like that now! I just had a phase about 5 years ago where I was absolutely mesmerised by the whole thing. I was in this in-between phase in life where I'd come back home to Belfast for a placement year, "working" for my uncle's company for a year, and then I'd be going back to do my final year after - so it just felt like I was kind of frozen in time. I'd drifted away from my old school friends back home so it was just family, all my close mates were in Liverpool at this stage, and I had absolutely no interest in getting a job and being productive, but also, there's not all that much to do in Belfast after 20-odd years there! So I just turned to football, weirdly. All because I happened to stumble upon this forum when I was 16 or something, and never left. It's a funny world.

Started watching Maradona because of the Messi comparisons, and of course found him amazing, but I was so surprised to see someone of Careca's talent alongside him. Made me realise how bastardised most descriptions of football back then was by most modern fans. Then @Fortitude gave me a nudge to watch Pélé and I was just blown away, that was me set. Probably had a week where I just watched all the Brazil games from '58 to '70, and then I guess I moved onto Cruyff. Couldn't believe what I was seeing at that point.

These days, it's much more of an effort!! I swear phones are eroding away at our ability to concentrate at a ridiculous rate...

Agreed about being productive though. At the end of the day, creating things, whatever those things are, is a really valuable thing in life IMO. I made these data vis things as skills development, just playing around with different kinds of data, and personal projects are the best way to keep learning for me. But then when I end up making them I'm just really satisfied to have made something. It really doesn't matter what that thing is. Just one of those deep human needs, for me at least.

The interesting thing about the Maicon video for me was comparing the end result to an all-touches video I made for Silvio Marzolini. The difference stylistically and in terms of their roles was just night and day really. Over the years in drafts we've tended to grant the Niltons and Facchettis near-superhero status, and probably sold the better recent FBs (including Leandro for sure) really short in comparison in failing to acknowledge the sheer amount of ground they cover, in addition to how technically accomplished and well-rounded they are. There's still far more research to be done there, and sadly probably inadequate footage, but the evolution of the full back role is very interesting to us draft forum anorak-types.

As regards Reus vs Salah, I think I'd still go with Reus with very little confidence that my choice will stand the test of time well. I rate his all-around game so highly and along with Messi and Modric he's probably the non-Utd player I enjoy watching most these days. It's worth pointing out too that he's put up fairly prodigious numbers while mostly being his team's secondary goalscorer behind the likes of Lewandowski and Aubameyang. I will point out that I still refuse to give a definitive answer as to who was better between van Nistelrooy and Henry, so I'll acknowledge that I'm liable to be swayed by bias at times .

Totally agree on this one! I'm sure folks like Jonathan Wilson and co. have written many interesting things about it, but I'd love to see some footage just pulling it all together and really showing that progression. Fullbacks these days get through a crazy amount of work, and there's so much variety in the kind of roles they play.

 

[antohan]

We'd actually picked Enzo intending to use him either as a false 9 or left-sided forward in a 4-3-3, but changed our minds after seeing how good he was in a more traditional CF role. Sjor compared his back to goal play with Mark Hughes in our convo and it made sense to me. I knew he was good but it's been a revelation watching him in more detail and I basically love the man now. The obvious comparisons for me when I was beginning to assess him were his contemporaries as AM/SS geniuses Laudrup and Roberto Baggio and while I haven't really seen him produce a passing masterclass to their level yet, his dribbling is extraordinary, as his attitude, and he's got facets to his game that the other two lack in terms of his strength, sheer physical resilience, and resultant ability to operate as a lone centre-forward. More videos from various stages of his career to follow I think, regardless of who goes through here.

Good to see, every time Enzo gets picked I get a feeling the manager doesn't really get him at all and spends the entire game talking about other guys unlikely to have aywhere near the kind of impact he had.

Don't know if you are aware but Cruyff originally planned to build the Dream Team around him as a false 9. Marseille refused to entertain any deal though and he ended up getting Laudrup instead.

On the one hand I would have loved to see what came of that... on the other I would have missed out on Laudrup in that team. I have a hard time seeing Enzo fitting better with Romario and Stoichkov, but then, it probably would have led to other personnel choices anyway.

 

[Enigma_87]

As a rule I'm not a fan of messing with the poll timings by allowing votes to count after the poll closes etc. This match was a different situation but it's a good example of the bad-feeling and general messiness that can arise:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/wc-all-stars-chain-draft-round-1-crappy-vs-arbitrium.439045/

In this case though I'm happy enough with whatever happens as 1) MJJ only missed the voting by a slim margin 2) there's honestly precious little between the two teams and 3) frankly it's a big boost for the quality of discussion in the drafts overall if you stay involved.

So Sjor and I are both offically fannying out of making any decision on this whatsoever and turning it over to yourself and the mods to decide @Enigma_87 @Don Alfredo

I think we had voters in the past missing by literally seconds (@harms ) from memory in one of the games posted a screenshot.

The problem with tallying votes after the vote has closed is that there is no guarantee other casual voter during the time MJJ made his choice wasn’t trying to vote and he would voted for Pat/ Sjor for example but didn’t write in the thread. The only objective source we have is the finished vote count, where managerial votes are discounted.

If we are to count votes after the time has expired is by extending the poll and thus give a chance not only for MJJ but other neutrals to vote in the same time.

To me results after voting is closed are always final. We had voters changing their mind and withdrawing votes, but within the poll deadline.

It has been top class discussion and happy to read all throughout and I can understand @Brwned losing many games on draws and decisive vote myself, but the fair solution to me has always been the final vote count as it eliminates any subjective outcomes with late votes after all has been done and dusted.

 

[harms]

To me results after voting is closed are always final.

This.

Harsh on @Brwned as he provided a fantastic write-up and followed it by a great discussion, but the result is what it is at the end of the poll.

 

[Don Alfredo]

I have the same opinion as Enigma, we cannot count MJJ's vote or else we set a precedent for future matches for messing with the deadline. So really it is not on mods to decide if this late vote now or that late vote in the future counts or not because they shouldn't have the power to decide matches, we just go along by the established rule that the voting count on the deadline is the conclusive deciding factor - minus the manager / AM votes of course.

 

[Brwned]

Fair enough. Well done @Pat_Mustard & @Šjor Bepo!

See you next time folks

 

[Ecstatic]

No penalties?

 

[Physiocrat]

No penalties?

It was won by the best keeper as voted by the goalkeeping committee

 

[Fortitude]

Fair enough. Well done @Pat_Mustard & @Šjor Bepo!

See you next time folks

I'll keep an eye out for your next draft - you've set a standard now... no pressure...

Was nice to read the exchanges @Pat_Mustard and you, @Brwned shame you met so early in the draft.

 

[Brwned]

Well, you do know I love a good counterattacking setup, and I see personnel that will excel at it in Blokhin, Enzo, both fullbacks, and Reus in fairness. In space, against that backline, they will run you ragged. Ramos will probably get sent off.

My only gripe with that side is the Guardiolesque approach to the midfield by including De Bruyne. The defence needs more protection, but then, the surgical outball de Bruyne provides may well make up for it.

On the other hand, I rate Laudrup very highly but don't see your frontline having enough punch for a rock solid trio. Kane just had a game with plenty of attacking impetus and domination for almost an entire half (and a decent Laudrup impersonation in Eriksen) and left empty handed against De Gea despite facing Jones and Lindelof and not Terry-Carvalho. Salah and Sane don't even have a sustained 3-year peak to speak of in my mind. That's ultimately my issue here, I reckon Pat/Sjors personnel will deliver on the tactical approach while yours will threaten more but are comparatively toothless.

I know it's an odd place to revisit but I was keen to see how views on this would develop over the next couple of years.

Do people now think Salah and Kane have proven their goalscoring exploits were not just an aberration, but something worthy of putting them down as among the most prolific players of their generation?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I know it's an odd place to revisit but I was keen to see how views on this would develop over the next couple of years.

Do people now think Salah and Kane have proven their goalscoring exploits were not just an aberration, but something worthy of putting them down as among the most prolific players of their generation?

Both have long enough peaks, its just how you rate them. Personally im not a biggest fan of Kane and plenty of better strikers rarely get sunlight in drafts but Salah is a interesting one, too selfish for my liking though he is different to vast majority of wide forwards given how dominant he is physically so that alone gives him a place in these games. Mane on the other hand cemented his place as one of the best wide forwards in history, not elite tier but just under IMO

 

[harms]

Agree on Kane – he has been a world class forward long enough, but players like Van Persie, Agüero, Ibra, Lewandowski etc. rarely get picked, he hasn’t been better than them. Somewhere broadly in their tier, I guess.

Salah has less competition and probably should get picked more, but I just don’t like him at all.

 

[antohan]

I know it's an odd place to revisit but I was keen to see how views on this would develop over the next couple of years.

Do people now think Salah and Kane have proven their goalscoring exploits were not just an aberration, but something worthy of putting them down as among the most prolific players of their generation?

Well, that was two years ago

Their three year peak would now make for a much stronger case, no doubt.

That said, I had a quick peak at the lineups and would still feel more comfortable going into the game with the other lineup and setup. Whenever in doubt I run through the test of which side would be better equipped to deal with being behind in the scoreline, whether you can stay in control or need to take risks and what the extent of these would be.

 

[Brwned]

Well, that was two years ago

Their three year peak would now make for a much stronger case, no doubt.

That said, I had a quick peak at the lineups and would still feel more comfortable going into the game with the other lineup and setup. Whenever in doubt I run through the test of which side would be better equipped to deal with being behind in the scoreline, whether you can stay in control or need to take risks and what the extent of these would be.

Oh yeah I'm not interested in the teams, just those two players and how opinions have evolved. To me because they're unflashy compared to their peers they get a bit overlooked. A couple of years ago I can definitely understand the scepticism of their productivity and whether it was just exceptional peaks, but they've been so prolific for such a long time now. I love van Persie for example but he never produced so many goals individually or in overall contributions. Could make a lot of similar comparisons to Salah. Their goals are just reduced to numbers now without much recognition of what that sheer volume tells us.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Oh yeah I'm not interested in the teams, just those two players and how opinions have evolved. To me because they're unflashy compared to their peers they get a bit overlooked. A couple of years ago I can definitely understand the scepticism of their productivity and whether it was just exceptional peaks, but they've been so prolific for such a long time now. I love van Persie for example but he never produced so many goals individually or in overall contributions. Could make a lot of similar comparisons to Salah. Their goals are just reduced to numbers now without much recognition of what that sheer volume tells us.

Excellent players playing in an incredible setup.

That said, put them in a false 9 setup along with Messi for example and they'd each have unbelievable numbers, especially Salah.

 

[Gio]

I know it's an odd place to revisit but I was keen to see how views on this would develop over the next couple of years.

Do people now think Salah and Kane have proven their goalscoring exploits were not just an aberration, but something worthy of putting them down as among the most prolific players of their generation?

On Salah there aren’t many who I would pick ahead of him in a right-sided goal-scoring wide-forward gig. There’s certainly Rummenigge, Gullit, Eusebio, Robben, Stoichkov, but he’s probably at or approaching a group including Hamrin, Lato, Finney and Jairzinho. The latter is probably quite a good comparison actually - physically impressive, quality finisher, relatively short peak compared to the others and quite system specific in realising his best attributes (whereas everyone else mentioned has more versatility across the line).

On the general point though about current players I think it’s hard to gauge their status until the dust settles on their careers. I mean we’ve even had players such as Varane lose stature mid-draft because of a bad performance on the big stage. I think there’s a moment usually around the age of 30 when we’ve seen enough to be fully convinced, having seen the draft reputations of, for example, Robben, Modric and Schweinsteiger jump up around that age.

 

[Synco]

I mean we’ve even had players such as Varane lose stature mid-draft because of a bad performance on the big stage.

That was funny - CB duo of Varane and Koulibaly messing up right before the draft game

 

[Brwned]

On Salah there aren’t many who I would pick ahead of him in a right-sided goal-scoring wide-forward gig. There’s certainly Rummenigge, Gullit, Eusebio, Robben, Stoichkov, but he’s probably at or approaching a group including Hamrin, Lato, Finney and Jairzinho. The latter is probably quite a good comparison actually - physically impressive, quality finisher, relatively short peak compared to the others and quite system specific in realising his best attributes (whereas everyone else mentioned has more versatility across the line).

On the general point though about current players I think it’s hard to gauge their status until the dust settles on their careers. I mean we’ve even had players such as Varane lose stature mid-draft because of a bad performance on the big stage. I think there’s a moment usually around the age of 30 when we’ve seen enough to be fully convinced, having seen the draft reputations of, for example, Robben, Modric and Schweinsteiger jump up around that age.

Agreed on both points! What about Kane? By the end of this season he'll be the 7th top goalscorer of all time in the PL, within touching distance of Henry having played a similar number of games. And to me this season he's firmly shrugged off this idea that he only plays a small role in the build up. He doesn't have the grace of Henry but he's just as much of a fulcrum in their attack, playing with significantly inferior support the entire time. Golden boot in England's best WC performance in decades shows that translates well broadly too. I think a switch to someone like Madrid would put him firmly in the category alongside someone like Henry.

 

[Gio]

Agreed on both points! What about Kane? By the end of this season he'll be the 7th top goalscorer of all time in the PL, within touching distance of Henry having played a similar number of games. And to me this season he's firmly shrugged off this idea that he only plays a small role in the build up. He doesn't have the grace of Henry but he's just as much of a fulcrum in their attack, playing with significantly inferior support the entire time. Golden boot in England's best WC performance in decades shows that translates well broadly too. I think a switch to someone like Madrid would put him firmly in the category alongside someone like Henry.

I’d tend to agree with the others on Kane falling in a fairly broad group of centre-forwards. I don’t think it’s a longevity issue, more that we’ve seen enough to drop him into a similar tier to Shearer, Aguero, Lewandowski, Papin, RVN, Crespo, Vieri, Rush, etc.

I think there are two ways he could progress up to the next tier because there are basically two types of centre forwards who are ahead of him. First are the guys who were much more than goal scorers, such as the electric 1v1 players like Henry, Suarez, Ronaldo, Eusebio or the technical geniuses like Van Basten. Second are the prodigious goal scorers - Muller, Cristiano, Batistuta, Romario, Greaves - who have proven repeatedly that they can decide games at the highest level against the best defenders. For all his improved link up play, it’s fairly small beer compared to some of the magic produced by the players above over the course of the careers. So given his skillset, his best chance is to be the player who can score goals out of nothing at the top level. Batistuta didn’t win much in his career and like Kane lacked that 1v1 ability, but he still gets his dues because he was such an impressive goal scorer and did it repeatedly from all angles and ranges against many of the very best.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Kane would end up like Rooney, neither here nor there.

Salah just ain't there.

Mane would be a good tier 2 wide forward.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Brwned

Great efforts. By the way, the last team you did I can remember was 2 years ago with the same offensive trio, right?