State of old goalkeepers.

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Watching Sky Sports football goals of the season from 96/97 on YouTube and few things crossed my mind;

- The amount of goals scored against United that featured.

- The amount of times big Pete got chipped.

- The amount of lobs or chips in general.

- And the utter state of the goalkeeping. I swear half the shots taken and scored would be, no joke, caught by modern day keepers.


Not only in the league but watched a replay of the 1996 FA Cup match between the Chavs and us (boredom) and likewise Schmeichel was chipped again. Also noticed how deadly Cole looked and how we were able to blow teams away with ease.


Bored out of my mind but the one thing holding back old teams in my opinion in the "older versus newer teams/era debates" is the appalling goalkeeping.

Thoughts?

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Schmeichel was a big man, like really big. He probably would have been closer to his son's build if he was playing in the modern game and as a result been more agile.

 

[Maticmaker]

With his sheer size and his 'starfish' dash out off his line, the only way to beat Schmeichel was to chip him, but it is surprising looking back how often he left that opportunity available to the opposition.

 

[Eckers99]

Yep. With the odd exception they get worse the further back you go.

 

[do.ob]

Sweeping ability used to be one of the criteria for a "modern" keeper. So this observation doesn't really surprise that much.

 

[11101]

Players in all positions get less athletic the further back you go. Not a reflection on the players, just the training methods available to them at the time. Keepers back then were often massive as they didn't need outfield levels of competence on the ball, they needed to be commanding and powerful. Just look up pictures of Neville Southall standing in the net with his double chin spilling over his shirt.

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

The amount of goals in old Prem games that would slip through keepers fingers and would be comfortably pushed around the post today is insane. There's still howlers today but some of the 'regular goals' back then would be considered shocking goalkeeping today

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

The amount of goals in old Prem games that would slip through keepers fingers and would be comfortably pushed around the post today is insane. There's still howlers today but some of the 'regular goals' back then would be considered shocking goalkeeping today

Balls were heavier the further you go back. It’s not a huge amount, but it’s a factor. Old Mitre size 4’s were heavier than the modern balls as an example.

I’ll try to find the link to the geeky study I read a few years back around World Cup time.

 

[edcunited1878]

Balls were heavier the further you go back. It’s not a huge amount, but it’s a factor. Old Mitre size 4’s were heavier than the modern balls as an example.

I’ll try to find the link to the geeky study I read a few years back around World Cup time.

Really good shout about the balls and how much heavier they were. And the aerodynamics of it now makes the ball swerve and move...just much more slicker. And the pitches back then were much more shit than the majority of pristine pitches of top leagues now which gave a lot odd bounces and poor footing. Goalie gloves are much more advanced, but the balls are much more volatile today.

 

[hasanejaz88]

If only the internet existed back then, the reputation of players would be a lot worse than what they are right now. That's something players these days have to deal with and why they're much more harshly criticized than players of the past.

Though I do hope that as time goes buy we forget the small nitpicky mistakes and remember players for their general class and ability.

Really good shout about the balls and how much heavier they were. And the aerodynamics of it now makes the ball swerve and move...just much more slicker. And the pitches back then were much more shit than the majority of pristine pitches of top leagues now which gave a lot odd bounces and poor footing. Goalie gloves are much more advanced, but the balls are much more volatile today.

There's a fantastic series of videos of an interview with Schmeichel and Kahn. They comment that keeping today is actually more difficult because of how varied the movement of the ball is. Though they also rightly say that keepers these days are trained to handle that variable swing, they also said they would've hated to be a keeper now than before because of the change in balls.

 

[billybee99]

In fairness to the old keepers, you said you were watching a highlight video so, of course, you are seeing all the goals and none of their great saves. Any highlight video showing goals is going to make the keepers look bad. If you watch a highlight video from last year, the keepers are going to look like crap because they are conceding goals.

It's like when some Ronaldo or Messi fan watches highlight reels of Pele or Maradona and laughs at the "shocking" defending and uses that as a stick with which to beat Pele or Maradona yet, if you watch old highlight videos of Messi (or Ronaldo), you see them routinely putting the Boatengs or Milners on their collective arses and it looks like "shocking" defending. Great players make defenders look shocking. It's all about perspective (and that's not to say that goalkeepers haven't improved).

 

[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

Balls were heavier the further you go back. It’s not a huge amount, but it’s a factor. Old Mitre size 4’s were heavier than the modern balls as an example.

I’ll try to find the link to the geeky study I read a few years back around World Cup time.

Yeah, there's definitely a multitude of factors that went into it. Pitches were much less consistent back then which accounts for part of it, as does the lower athleticism of keepers

 

[DWelbz19]

If only the internet existed back then, the reputation of players would be a lot worse than what they are right now. That's something players these days have to deal with and why they're much more harshly criticized than players of the past.

Though I do hope that as time goes buy we forget the small nitpicky mistakes and remember players for their general class and ability.

100%.

Nostalgia and time will rightly see these players rated as good as they were, though — for the most part.

 

[Chipper]

Should there not have been more goals per game then, or are we saying players couldn't shoot too?

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/pre...remier-league/premier_league_goal_statistics/

The 5 highest goalscoring seasons were all this decade so goalies got better and forwards got even better than that? Of course tactics should be considered but general consensus is that the 90s was open/naive with 4-4-2 prominent.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Really good shout about the balls and how much heavier they were. And the aerodynamics of it now makes the ball swerve and move...just much more slicker. And the pitches back then were much more shit than the majority of pristine pitches of top leagues now which gave a lot odd bounces and poor footing. Goalie gloves are much more advanced, but the balls are much more volatile today.

Some of the balls are more volatile, but they also require less input to deviate off course.

Old balls were not THAT much heavier. But they saw more game time, soaked up seam-water (even in the modern era), they were different enough.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Should there not have been more goals per game then, or are we saying players couldn't shoot too?

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/pre...remier-league/premier_league_goal_statistics/

The 5 highest goalscoring seasons were all this decade so goalies got better and forwards got even better than that? Of course tactics should be considered but general consensus is that the 90s was open/naive with 4-4-2 prominent.

I personally think tactics are a lot more attack minded now than before in the 00's and 90's. Improvement in pitches and fitness have meant the game is faster and teams are more willing to move forward in attack than slow down the pace before.

Obviously it's difficult to use stats to back this because goals per game doesn't reflect that, but just a general consensus from watching football over the years.

 

[sullydnl]

Should there not have been more goals per game then, or are we saying players couldn't shoot too?

https://www.myfootballfacts.com/pre...remier-league/premier_league_goal_statistics/

The 5 highest goalscoring seasons were all this decade so goalies got better and forwards got even better than that? Of course tactics should be considered but general consensus is that the 90s was open/naive with 4-4-2 prominent.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2012/nov/15/why-more-goals-scored-football

From 2012 but might be relevant.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

If only the internet existed back then, the reputation of players would be a lot worse than what they are right now. That's something players these days have to deal with and why they're much more harshly criticized than players of the past.

Yes and no.

Dimi has a highlight reel of outrageous first touches that always seem to get pulled out. Principally because eversingle touch he had was recorded.

Eric had a better first touch. I saw that guy do stuff that would be EVERYWHERE in the modern game. Clips tweeted and retweeted instantly. But far less of it was recorded.

I never understand the need to downgrade past players to elevate the present.

 

[Tel074]

I've been a OT regular for 20 odd years and without the best Goalkeeper ive ever seen was Schmeichel

 

[hasanejaz88]

Yes and no.

Dimi has a highlight reel of outrageous first touches that always seem to get pulled out. Principally because eversingle touch he had was recorded.

Eric had a better first touch. I saw that guy do stuff that would be EVERYWHERE in the modern game. Clips tweeted and retweeted instantly. But far less of it was recorded.

I never understand the need to downgrade past players to elevate the present.

Or why we need to downgrade the present to elevate the past (threads such as 'Lack of quality defenders/strikers today')?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Players in a particular position evolving their technique as empirical practices are applied to the game shocker.

 

[Harry190]

They would also grab the ball, like real men. None of that punching shit. I don't know anyone who can catch a ball shot straight at them nowadays. It does make a difference that balls have changed.

 

[McGrathsipan]

I cant watch these videos with the edited in "canned crowd" - Most goal cheers sound the same !
Amazing!

 

[izec]

I don't think it is only GKs. You can find any perceived or real difference from back then to today and say it was holding them back at the time.

If you go back another 25 years and see how shocking players (and GKs i bet) played compared to the 90's, you would be surprised as well. That is why you can't compare players in different time periods, the change in football, society, training, lifestlye and technology changes the game massively. The GKs in the 90's were the best at the time, today's are the best of this time and in 25 years the lads will be the best in their times. But what is normal in 25 years, may not be normal or standard today.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Or why we need to downgrade the present to elevate the past (threads such as 'Lack of quality defenders/strikers today')?

That happens far less.

There are fewer good defenders and strikers in the modern game. That’s obvious.

But goals come from different positions now. Wingers are now forwards, full backs are often
wingers.

There are also far more top class athletes in today’s game. Intensity is higher.

Things change. But the idea that all positions are being honed and improved decade on decade is silly. Some get better. Some get worse. Some are invented. Some disappear.

 

[Member 113277]

Anyone who thinks 'old time' keepers are useless should watch footage of Lev Yashin or Gordon Banks.

Yashin
Banks

 

[hasanejaz88]

That happens far less.

There are fewer good defenders and strikers in the modern game. That’s obvious.

But goals come from different positions now. Wingers are now forwards, full backs are often
wingers.

There are also far more top class athletes in today’s game. Intensity is higher.

Things change. But the idea that all positions are being honed and improved decade on decade is silly. Some get better. Some get worse. Some are invented. Some disappear.

You pretty much proved my point.

I'm not saying that any player from any generation is better, all I'm saying is that we generally overrate previous generation players to current ones because people don't remember the single mistakes that are made by players today and also lack of media coverage compared to today (particularly the internet).

Again, this is not to say players from this generation are better than older ones, but players from this generation are equally good.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Anyone who thinks 'old time' keepers are useless should watch footage of Lev Yashin or Gordon Banks.

Yashin
Banks

It’s daft. The Mile world record has only dropped about 20 seconds in 80 years.

Goalkeepers haven’t got THAT much better at diving, jumping, reacting. They just played a different game that asked different things of them. Balls, refereeing, rules, gloves, training, nutrition, pitches, have all changed far more.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

You pretty much proved my point.

I really didn’t.

Centre backs and Number 9’s we’re far better in years gone by. Take a look at the 1998 World Cup squads and tell me that there were large numbers of comparable centre backs and 9’s at the last World Cup.

Different positions have a larger volume of great players now.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I really didn’t.

Centre backs and Number 9’s we’re far better in years gone by. Take a look at the 1998 World Cup squads and tell me that there were large numbers of comparable centre backs and 9’s at the last World Cup.

Different positions have a larger volume of great players now.

Sure. They were 'far' better. If that's a point then goalkeepers today are 'far' better as well.

 

[Vidyoyo]

Highlights etc but I think there used to be more emphasis on keepers maintaining the backline which is why mentality was more important than just ability.

It changed a lot in the mid 2000s. I can't explain the likes of Neville Southall otherwise.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Sure. They were 'far' better. If that's a point then goalkeepers today are 'far' better as well.

Dude, apply come critical thought. Take a look at what I said.

Lewandowski is probably the only modern number 9 that would have walked in the England squad in 98. We left behind Cole and Fowler. Those two would be £100m players in this era.

VVD and Koubaily are probably the only modern centre halves that would rank in the top 20 centre halves at that tournament.

The game has changed.

 

[AKDevil]

Schmeichel being chipped was part and parcel of his proactive goalkeeping style, always looking to get off his line and close angles.

 

[Skills]

Tbh a chip is harder shot to execute for a striker. The goalkeeper might look like a tit when he gets beat compared to staying on his line, but he did make it more likely for the striker to miss.

 

[GifLord]

Really good shout about the balls and how much heavier they were. And the aerodynamics of it now makes the ball swerve and move...just much more slicker. And the pitches back then were much more shit than the majority of pristine pitches of top leagues now which gave a lot odd bounces and poor footing. Goalie gloves are much more advanced, but the balls are much more volatile today.

I remember goalkeepers complaining about the Fevernova ball before the start of the WC 2002.

In 2002, the Adidas "Fevernova" used in South Korea and Japan was lighter than those used before and was believed to help the more technical players, with Italy's goalkeeper Gianluigi Buffon labeling it as a "ridiculous kiddie's bouncing ball."

Would be interesting if they did as an experiment a 10 game test with 10 different balls from the last 30 years

 

[hasanejaz88]

Dude, apply come critical thought. Take a look at what I said.

Lewandowski is probably the only modern number 9 that would have walked in the England squad in 98. We left behind Cole and Fowler. Those two would be £100m players in this era.

VVD and Koubaily are probably the only modern centre halves that would rank in the top 20 centre halves at that tournament.

The game has changed.

Lewandowski
Aguero
Kane
Aubamayeng
Firmino
Mbappe
Suarez
Benzema
Messi
Icardi

Rashford and Vardy could also be part of a squad that had Sherringham and Les Ferdinand as their strikers.

 

[harms]

Anyone who thinks 'old time' keepers are useless should watch footage of Lev Yashin or Gordon Banks.

Yashin
Banks

It’s daft. The Mile world record has only dropped about 20 seconds in 80 years.

Goalkeepers haven’t got THAT much better at diving, jumping, reacting. They just played a different game that asked different things of them. Balls, refereeing, rules, gloves, training, nutrition, pitches, have all changed far more.

It's always good to post this in any time-related sports discussion.

As for past keepers — I have to say that even the likes of Yashin made more mistakes than your regular top keeper does now. Haven't seen much of Banks aside from his World Cup performances, so I'm not sure how he did there — I'm sure that he had same issues. That's mostly training & difference in equipment though — and when you look at a truly great keeper you recognise him in any era, simply because of how modern they look. Yashin if one case, Beara is another one that surprised me when I've watched him.

 

[Pexbo]

Despite the fact they are both know for being incredible shot stoppers, I don’t think you could find two goalkeepers more different than Schmeichel and De Gea are in both style and personality.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

If you watch highlights of goals, the goalkeeper will be beaten = look worse than they usually do. If you watched a video of saves, it would be a different story. You don't watch a goal compilation video to judge how good a keeper is.

Schmeichel had a mistake in him but he also could pull a save from nowhere and was really intimidating on one-on-ones. For the odd time he got chipped, he probably saved 10 one-on-ones. Another underrated ability that you don't always see was his ability to launch a throw over the halfway line to start a counter attack. Schmeichel was a great keeper worthy of any era. He'd be like Neuer today. If you wanted to edit it in a certain way, you could make Neuer look like a joke, whereas if you watch 10 games you'll see how he really helps the team he's in.

 

[FujiVice]

Mark Crossley was nicknamed "jigsaw" by Brian Clough at Forrest. He had no idea why until he asked one day and Clough replied "because when a ball comes in the box, you got to fecking pieces, son."

It was a different time in fairness. Great players would adapt to modern style and training methods. Schmeichel for example didnt even have a goalkeeping coach for most of his reign. Tony Coton was brought as a player in solely to give him a bit of company in 1996. If we werent looking after our keepers, and we were the top team in the country, I doubt Newcastle, Spurs or Liverpool or lower clubs than that were.

Neville Southall is the prime example of a keeper who didnt look after himself, who would have certainly done so in the modern game. Nev got fat, lost motivation and sailed through games late on in his career. In 1985 he was as good as any keeper I've ever seen, though.