State Owned vs The Rest Of Football: 3 - 3 this decade

[Fortitude]

3 - 3 Champions League trophies now.

There was a time when the scant consolation for their proliferation into the game was somewhat tolerated because they couldn’t win big ears, as much as they tried, but since 2020, they’ve taken the trophy three times, and worse, if not for Madrid, they would have won the last three in a row. They have been in 5 of the 6 finals since the decade began.

Who will win the decade: honest to goodness football or the state-owned machines?

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

State owned wasn't always a bad thing. The old socialist state owned teams had a strong connection to their communities and national sports societies andoperated within society in a realistic way as to what football actually offers it.

It's the deeply unregulated state of recent football that has morphed the concept into something else, where some FA's/governments are so rancid in their corruption and greed that they will allow outside nation states to own their own football clubs despite this threatening to break apart the very structure of their domestic competition.

 

[Fobal]

State owned wasn't always a bad thing. The old socialist state owned teams had a strong connection to their communities and national sports societies andoperated within society in a realistic way as to what football actually offers it.

It's the deeply unregulated state of recent football that has morphed the concept into something else, where some FA's/governments are so rancid in their corruption and greed that they will allow outside nation states to own their own football clubs despite this threatening to break apart the very structure of their domestic competition.

Also Private parties owning teams it's not that diff. Only Clubs owned by socios are the ones that still have some sort of real community behind them. Yet not meaning that those cannot be horrible managed too.

 

[krazyrobus]

3 - 3 Champions League trophies now.

There was a time when the scant consolation for their proliferation into the game was somewhat tolerated because they couldn’t win big ears, as much as they tried, but since 2020, they’ve taken the trophy three times, and worse, if not for Madrid, they would have won the last three in a row. They have been in 5 of the 6 finals since the decade began.

Who will win the decade: honest to goodness football or the state-owned machines?

Madrid is state helped.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I honestly don't care. It has feck all to do with the football played nor the level of organization needed to make that wealth beget success. I view rogue states and companies that practice unethical business the same. Their political shenanigans should never be treated as part of the sport.

I'll forever marvel that people think because like a state owned club has had success on the sport field it suddenly means anyone will view them as anything other than a rogue state. Thats infantanlizing people and acting like they are easy to fool
.

 

[bringbackbebe]

Chelsea under Abramovich was basically state owned

 

[Withnail]

I honestly don't care. It has feck all to do with the football played nor the level of organization needed to make that wealth beget success. I view rogue states and companies that practice unethical business the same. Their political shenanigans should never be treated as part of the sport.

I'll forever marvel that people think because like a state owned club has had success on the sport field it suddenly means anyone will view them as anything other than a rogue state. Thats infantanlizing people and acting like they are easy to fool
.

I think history has shown people are very easy to fool

 

[Garnacho Libre]

Madrid is state helped.

I think Barcelona and most Spanish teams are the same - I think I heard one time they benefit from special taxes from Spanish government. One could argue that's unfair for other European teams, whom pay higher taxes in their countries. However, Spain can do what they want.

 

[Acrobat7]

Who will win the decade: honest to goodness football or the state-owned machines?

Are we pretending that clubs belonging to hedge funds, oligarchs and shade billionaires are that much better?

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I think history has shown people are very easy to fool

True. Just not to the extent they'd do the equivalent of suddenly thinking a Hitler is Nelson Mandela because he owned a successful sports franchise.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Considering one of the ‘good guys’ just bought Anthony Gordon for 70M in one of the most under-the-table deals ever….I don’t even know how much better the best of the rest are

 

[Fortitude]

This thread:



You can’t at the same time bemoan City and PSG and say they are OK…

 

[Bright_Eyes]

Also Private parties owning teams it's not that diff. Only Clubs owned by socios are the ones that still have some sort of real community behind them. Yet not meaning that those cannot be horrible managed too.

I honestly don't care. It has feck all to do with the football played nor the level of organization needed to make that wealth beget success. I view rogue states and companies that practice unethical business the same. Their political shenanigans should never be treated as part of the sport.

I'll forever marvel that people think because like a state owned club has had success on the sport field it suddenly means anyone will view them as anything other than a rogue state. Thats infantanlizing people and acting like they are easy to fool
.

Are we pretending that clubs belonging to hedge funds, oligarchs and shade billionaires are that much better?

Considering one of the ‘good guys’ just bought Anthony Gordon for 70M in one of the most under-the-table deals ever….I don’t even know how much better the best of the rest are

I agree this isn't really a good vs bad people thing. There are levels of bad for the sport though. States have orders of magnitude more political sway than private owners. To think that isn't being used to get their way behind the scenes is naive. State owned clubs make politics a much bigger part of the sport. City wouldn't have been able to do what they did without being owned by a state. So it is affecting the integrity of the sport more than your standard billionaires.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I agree this isn't really a good vs bad people thing. There are levels of bad for the sport though. States have orders of magnitude more political sway than private owners. To think that isn't being used to get their way behind the scenes is naive. State owned clubs make politics a much bigger part of the sport. City wouldn't have been able to do what they did without being owned by a state. So it is affecting the integrity of the sport more than your standard billionaires.

I truly fail to see the distinction. Wealth is wealth. Whether it is a corporate giant like an Amazon. A billionaire oligarch worth 100B or a State. The out come on sport is the same if they can successfully invest in a sports project and bring it to bear. Unless folks want no wealth to ever enter sport ever. I find it a strange hill to die on.

Further more, what they have invested in achieving in a sports arena has absolutely nothing to do with what those entities do outside the sport. The modern need folks have started to increasingly have to pretend like those deeds do effect the sport or vice versa is what is truly baffling. Sports will well and truly die if we allow ideological divides of politics to invade it and permanentely nest.

 

[Ali Dia]

I truly fail to see the distinction. Wealth is wealth. Whether it is a corporate giant like an Amazon. A billionaire oligarch worth 100B or a State. The out come on sport is the same if they can successfully invest in a sports project and bring it to bear. Unless folks want no wealth to ever enter sport ever. I find it a strange hill to die on.

Further more, what they have invested in achieving in a sports arena has absolutely nothing to do with what those entities do outside the sport. The modern need folks have started to increasingly have to pretend like those deeds do effect the sport or vice versa is what is truly baffling. Sports will well and truly die if we allow ideological divides of politics to invade it and permanentely nest.

Sports and politics and influence have always mixed either way

 

[findBenji]

"Football is saved"

 

[GatoLoco]

I think Barcelona and most Spanish teams are the same - I think I heard one time they benefit from special taxes from Spanish government. One could argue that's unfair for other European teams, whom pay higher taxes in their countries. However, Spain can do what they want.

Corporate income tax in Ireland is 12.5%. In Spain it is 25%. One could argue in this case that it's Ireland who can do what they want and all their clubs are state backed

 

[Fobal]

I agree this isn't really a good vs bad people thing. There are levels of bad for the sport though. States have orders of magnitude more political sway than private owners. To think that isn't being used to get their way behind the scenes is naive. State owned clubs make politics a much bigger part of the sport. City wouldn't have been able to do what they did without being owned by a state. So it is affecting the integrity of the sport more than your standard billionaires.

Yet, Hedge funds, Corporations, Billionaires are the ones that set the State Policies around the globe, at times not even that hidden.
Also without being directly involved as owners, huge clubs have always being used and NEED by States, at least my first hand knowledge from Spain and Argentina.

I'm a guy that hates Clubs not being run by Socios (even with all the issues these ones also have), yet once you open the door to Corporations, then you also open it for Corporate States and so on.

 

[Mogget]

I truly fail to see the distinction. Wealth is wealth. Whether it is a corporate giant like an Amazon. A billionaire oligarch worth 100B or a State. The out come on sport is the same if they can successfully invest in a sports project and bring it to bear. Unless folks want no wealth to ever enter sport ever. I find it a strange hill to die on.

Further more, what they have invested in achieving in a sports arena has absolutely nothing to do with what those entities do outside the sport. The modern need folks have started to increasingly have to pretend like those deeds do effect the sport or vice versa is what is truly baffling. Sports will well and truly die if we allow ideological divides of politics to invade it and permanentely nest.

Surely the treatment of Abramovich vs City's owners shows you the clear distinction. Abramovich could be sanctioned and forced to sell the club because he's just one individual, no matter how much money he has. It's a lot harder to do that to a state owned club like City or PSG because the owners can retaliate diplomatically in a way individual billionaires can't

If the PL threatens to sanction City's owners, the UAE could very easily turn around and threaten to withdraw all of their investments from the UK. Which individual billionaire owner of a football club has that much power/influence?

 

[Mb194dc]

I really think football has a problem. Qatar being UEFAs biggest sponsor and owning PSG is also problematic.

Only a few clubs have any chance now, it's a totally broken sport. Way too unbalanced, greedy and almost no clubs even make a profit.

Unless you totally dominate your league like Bayern, Real Madrid or cook the books like PSG and City.

 

[Fobal]

Surely the treatment of Abramovich vs City's owners shows you the clear distinction. Abramovich could be sanctioned and forced to sell the club because he's just one individual, no matter how much money he has. It's a lot harder to do that to a state owned club like City or PSG because the owners can retaliate diplomatically in a way individual billionaires can't

If the PL threatens to sanction City's owners, the UAE could very easily turn around and threaten to withdraw all of their investments from the UK. Which individual billionaire owner of a football club has that much power/influence?

Anyone who is behind the scenes (or not even that) as an allied (or running) of the Goverment in turn, let's not be that naif.

 

[Mogget]

Anyone who is behind the scenes (or not even that) as an allied (or running) of the Goverment in turn, let's not be that naif.

It's not naive to think football club owners don't have the same power as oil rich nation states, even if they happen to be billionaires.

 

[Fobal]

It's not naive to think football club owners don't have the same power as oil rich nation states, even if they happen to be billionaires.

It depends a lot in how much involved it's that billionaire or corporation with the goverment in turn, that's what I imply by not being naif.
On any of these cases the big issue it's that greed, that let the Corps get in here it's precisly what open the door to even full blown Corporate States.

In the same vein any state can point at Abramovich calling him bad bad bad appple go home, they can tomorrow embrace any other Copro or Billionaire that aligns with them as some Modern Medici that has come tom save football.

PD: as a side note, QATAR it's less wealthy than quite a number of Corpos and Billionaires. APPLE alone that is putting it's tentacles in MLS (in part via Messi) is way more wealthy than QATAR.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

Honest to goodness football is nigh on extinct. It’s only a few mugs like us still trying to play the game by the rules. And we aren’t even good at it because our CEO is used to operating with state-owned shenanigans.

Depressing thread.

 

[Bright_Eyes]

I truly fail to see the distinction. Wealth is wealth. Whether it is a corporate giant like an Amazon. A billionaire oligarch worth 100B or a State. The out come on sport is the same if they can successfully invest in a sports project and bring it to bear. Unless folks want no wealth to ever enter sport ever. I find it a strange hill to die on.

Further more, what they have invested in achieving in a sports arena has absolutely nothing to do with what those entities do outside the sport. The modern need folks have started to increasingly have to pretend like those deeds do effect the sport or vice versa is what is truly baffling. Sports will well and truly die if we allow ideological divides of politics to invade it and permanentely nest.

Yet, Hedge funds, Corporations, Billionaires are the ones that set the State Policies around the globe, at times not even that hidden.
Also without being directly involved as owners, huge clubs have always being used and NEED by States, at least my first hand knowledge from Spain and Argentina.

I'm a guy that hates Clubs not being run by Socios (even with all the issues these ones also have), yet once you open the door to Corporations, then you also open it for Corporate States and so on.

https://www.thetimes.com/sport/foot...-talks-over-manchester-city-charges-l6hjpnhjj

What would the UK gov care most about: putting pressure on the PL to treat City leniently after talks with Abu Dhabi, or after talks with another PL owner with the same charges?

 

[Garnacho Libre]

Corporate income tax in Ireland is 12.5%. In Spain it is 25%. One could argue in this case that it's Ireland who can do what they want and all their clubs are state backed

haha so far that has not worked out for us, if that is the case!!

The biggest problem with football development here is the GAA. It's part of our culture which I understand!

From the grassroots, the GAA is prioritised. A lot of the good players on the team will play GAA in the summer and miss football training and not play some football matches because a GAA game is coming up etc.. From u10s to mens team, 7 players from the team might not be available for the first month of the season. The level of coaching is also poor (overall). Ireland has decent athletes and we could be better!

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

Maybe someone at the FA will see that this is a race to the bottom that can still be arrested if they don’t sit on their hands. Make it like Germany where a large percentage of the club is owned by fans, which might make it unattractive enough for countries not to buy them in the first place. The billionaires are bad enough.

 

[Krakenzero]

3 - 3 Champions League trophies now.

There was a time when the scant consolation for their proliferation into the game was somewhat tolerated because they couldn’t win big ears, as much as they tried, but since 2020, they’ve taken the trophy three times, and worse, if not for Madrid, they would have won the last three in a row. They have been in 5 of the 6 finals since the decade began.

Who will win the decade: honest to goodness football or the state-owned machines?

How are (of all teams) Real Madrid and Abramovich's Chelsea the good guys in this particular scenario?

There's hardly any honest to goodness football in the top leagues.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Surely the treatment of Abramovich vs City's owners shows you the clear distinction. Abramovich could be sanctioned and forced to sell the club because he's just one individual, no matter how much money he has. It's a lot harder to do that to a state owned club like City or PSG because the owners can retaliate diplomatically in a way individual billionaires can't

If the PL threatens to sanction City's owners, the UAE could very easily turn around and threaten to withdraw all of their investments from the UK. Which individual billionaire owner of a football club has that much power/influence?

No club has yet to be owned by a billionaire with truly global influence. When they do the same scenario could just as readily occur. An Abramovic was eash to bully because he is a "small fry" Billionaire and Russian. A China for example is just as divested as a UAE in UK invesments and heavily defends it's rich guys in ways a Russia doesn't dare. If Roman had been Chinese the hypothetical threat you say a UAE carries would have just been as real with them.

Most of that "threat" exists though because of importing political ideology and sensibilities into sport. I find it unlikely if a City were caught on valid sporting criteria to be in breach of valid sporting laws a state like UAE would "go nuclear' on the political front. But if you pulled the stunt UK pulled on Roman with them. You reap what you sow, frankly.

Which is why my stance is draconian. Keep politics out of sport administration. Period. Thats one section of Pandora's box that must remain shut.

 

[whitbyviking]

Corporate income tax in Ireland is 12.5%. In Spain it is 25%. One could argue in this case that it's Ireland who can do what they want and all their clubs are state backed

It would be interesting to compare the alleged sums Madrid city council have put into the club vs the corporation tax differential in Ireland (I’d imagine the rumoured amounts cover the corporation tax for the entire top league of Ireland over several seasons )

 

[GatoLoco]

It would be interesting to compare the alleged sums Madrid city council have put into the club vs the corporation tax differential in Ireland (I’d imagine the rumoured amounts cover the corporation tax for the entire top league of Ireland over several seasons )

The main advantage the club got from the council was the rezoning of the old sports complex. In terms of sums, it was the city council who received money from private companies and never put a cent. If you read any European Union ruling and come to the opposite conclusion, let me know so I can look into it.

 

[Acrobat7]

The main advantage the club got from the council was the rezoning of the old sports complex. In terms of sums, it was the city council who received money from private companies and never put a cent. If you read any European Union ruling and come to the opposite conclusion, let me know so I can look into it.

It's also absolutely a prime real estate location. (Can't beliebve I am defending Real. ffs!)

 

[whitbyviking]

The main advantage the club got from the council was the rezoning of the old sports complex. In terms of sums, it was the city council who received money from private companies and never put a cent. If you read any European Union ruling and come to the opposite conclusion, let me know so I can look into it.

https://jacobin.com/2021/06/spain-r...-football-privatization-european-super-league

 

[Bright_Eyes]

No club has yet to be owned by a billionaire with truly global influence. When they do the same scenario could just as readily occur. An Abramovic was eash to bully because he is a "small fry" Billionaire and Russian. A China for example is just as divested as a UAE in UK invesments and heavily defends it's rich guys in ways a Russia doesn't dare. If Roman had been Chinese the hypothetical threat you say a UAE carries would have just been as real with them.

Most of that "threat" exists though because of importing political ideology and sensibilities into sport. I find it unlikely if a City were caught on valid sporting criteria to be in breach of valid sporting laws a state like UAE would "go nuclear' on the political front. But if you pulled the stunt UK pulled on Roman with them. You reap what you sow, frankly.

Which is why my stance is draconian. Keep politics out of sport administration. Period. Thats one section of Pandora's box that must remain shut.

I'm curious what you mean by the two bolded. And how it would be possible.

Imo the threat exists just because money and power talks. If there's a big gap there between some owners and others, that's an issue.

 

[Mogget]

No club has yet to be owned by a billionaire with truly global influence. When they do the same scenario could just as readily occur. An Abramovic was eash to bully because he is a "small fry" Billionaire and Russian. A China for example is just as divested as a UAE in UK invesments and heavily defends it's rich guys in ways a Russia doesn't dare. If Roman had been Chinese the hypothetical threat you say a UAE carries would have just been as real with them.

Most of that "threat" exists though because of importing political ideology and sensibilities into sport. I find it unlikely if a City were caught on valid sporting criteria to be in breach of valid sporting laws a state like UAE would "go nuclear' on the political front. But if you pulled the stunt UK pulled on Roman with them. You reap what you sow, frankly.

Which is why my stance is draconian. Keep politics out of sport administration. Period. Thats one section of Pandora's box that must remain shut.

And if it does I'm sure people will appropriately criticise the situation. The reason these clubs owned by nation states get more criticism is because their owners naturally have more ability to influence. I'm sure if Elon Musk or some Chinese billionaire with links to the Chinese state bought a club people would react strongly too

The fact is there currently aren't any billionaire club owners who have the same level of power as Qatar or the UAE so I don't know why people are treating them as if it's the same

 

[GatoLoco]

https://jacobin.com/2021/06/spain-r...-football-privatization-european-super-league

This opinion piece does not prove anything of what you implied in your first post though.

The fact is that the city council and the regional government were the ones receiving money (and vast expanses of green space) under the agreement, and not the other way around as you said, and the European Commission was therefore unable to find any evidence of illegal state aid.

So for now, I think Irish sports clubs are coming out on top.

 

[do.omb]

You are wrong. It's 2-4 as Chelsea, or any other not fan owned club, does not belong into a different camp than state owned. If you add 2020 it's 3-4.
True that Real is doing well in defending the good side of football against the horrible capitalist dark side that's been coming for it.

 

[GatoLoco]

It's also absolutely a prime real estate location. (Can't beliebve I am defending Real. ffs!)

It can be argued the rezoning itself was the help. But it can be also argued it wasn't for free. The state got one tower and a percentage of another one apart from the green areas. With that money you can help improve public services, hospitals, education, which is something the journalist that wrote the piece shared above, given his political background, surely appreciates.

And as you said it was just a matter of luck the placement of the sports training ground happened to be there in the most expensive area of the whole country just when the demand for office space was the highest ever in history.

 

[whitbyviking]

This opinion piece does not prove anything of what you implied in your first post though.

The fact is that the city council and the regional government were the ones receiving money (and vast expanses of green space) under the agreement, and not the other way around as you said, and the European Commission was therefore unable to find any evidence of illegal state aid.

So for now, I think Irish sports clubs are coming out on top.

Firstly nobody mentioned illegal state aid, that is largely irrelevant since the Irish corporation tax rate is not illegal, however unpopular. I thought it was an interesting point due to the fact Real as a single commercial entity are far bigger than the whole Irish league.

So, i’m talking about Madrid city council contributing towards the club, and across the years there have been many examples of this. All legal of course since you seem to be want to emphasise that, despite it not being the point.

The total tax take from the league of Ireland (all tax including players salaries etc) is estimated at €40m, corporation tax probably being 1/4 to 1/2 of that. With the various deals Madrid City council have had or done with Real over the years I’m going to guess them amounts dwarf this.

 

[GatoLoco]

Firstly nobody mentioned illegal state aid, that is largely irrelevant since the Irish corporation tax rate is not illegal, however unpopular. I thought it was an interesting point due to the fact Real as a single commercial entity are far bigger than the whole Irish league.

So, i’m talking about Madrid city council contributing towards the club, and across the years there have been many examples of this. All legal of course since you seem to be want to emphasise that, despite it not being the point.

The total tax take from the league of Ireland (all tax including players salaries etc) is estimated at €40m, corporation tax probably being 1/4 to 1/2 of that. With the various deals Madrid City council have had or done with Real over the years I’m going to guess them amounts dwarf this.

It is very relevant the very same moment you mention this:

It would be interesting to compare the alleged sums Madrid city council have put into the club

A city council "putting money into a club" per se constitutes illegal state aid under the European Union laws, and since that never happened it can never be said the Madrid City council contributed with any sums of money towards the club.

You are free to consult European Commissions rulings at this respect and reach the same conclusion yourself.