Absolutely right. Me and my son watched the second half worried because of the magnitude of the game not because we were under any pressure. The OG didn't come from pressure, was just a poor mistake. Might be me but not sure what Utd team they were watching in the past cause we've never been a team that's put teams to bed. Lost count the games under SAF that we let of the hook, only then having to find another goal in the last 10 mins....
Sunday Supplement (2018 and Beyond)
- Thread starter Sanchezter
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I used their game as an example that sitting back and losing will be criticised. Comparing the two performances was not the intention, because they're totally different. Primarily in terms of attitude and approach. We tried to win and Chelsea didn't.
See further above for my explanation of why we will inevitably attract criticism if we don't win being up against the cosh. There is an expectation that United win and win with style. It's the way it is. Had Liverpool drew 2-2 yesterday then Mourinho's approach would have been criticised.
@TheReligion
I would wager a Jose side would go on to win from 2-0 up at halftime 99 percent of the time.
I'm confused as to why you think his way of working hasn't proven to be stupidly effective.
I think that logic is skewed though, you can start to go into all sorts of 'what ifs'. Like for instance, 'What if we attacked more to make it three, and then Liverpool nick a 2nd because of it?' Mourinho did his homework. And it worked. The rest is pretty much irrelevant unless it actually happens.
Yes, I would tend to agree with that.
Just seems that it can be the pattern of the (our) game these days vs. the serious opposition. And especially with a lead on the scoreboard.
Just said somewhere else, the Fellaini sub was good work from Jose in getting Utd back up the park - to halfway, at least,
.Probably right. They blamed everybody except the fans. This programme is sending not only the wrong message but also a dangerous one. Honestly some people believe this absolutely nonsense.
What if Mata scores and makes it 3 before half time? Is seeing the game out accepted then?
I don't buy we were massively under the cosh yesterday. Obviously it's not nice giving up possession but how often did Liverpool actually threaten? Did they even have one clear cut chance over 90 minutes?
We all know possession means nothing. Just ask LvG and look at the Caf back then..
As someone said earlier in the thread earlier, it's 'self harm'. There's always a temptation to tune in just to see mental gymnastics but at this point it's not even entertaining, it's just pure hatred for us.
I haven't had time to watch much of these football shows but I was at home for Holi holidays and tuned into Football Today: Journalist Show day after our win vs Chelsea, you'd expect them to analyze the game and offer some praise for us and Mourinho to turn it around (Conte's Chelsea hadn't lost a PL match after scoring 1st goal till then) but nothing of that sort, entire time was devoted to how this is not the United way and fans won't be happy with they're seeing on the pitch. You'd expect the host (Manish Bhasin) to stray the conversation onto the other spectrum but even he asked something related to Pogba's performance and they spent few minutes criticizing him. The segment came to an end with Jason Burt saying and I quote 'This is not the era of Jose Mourinho, these era belongs to Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp'
Your talk about possession doesn't make a lot of sense to me especially when the rivals are City and Liverpool who like to press higher up the pitch and like to exploit space behind, we're always going to concede possession to teams of that nature. We don't have the personnel in defence and midfield to bypass the press.
Also, Mourinho has built an entire career playing like that and funny thing is it has worked for most part. In the famous Slippy G season, his Chelsea side won 16pts out of possible 18 vs Top 4 scoring most goals and conceding least goals in these games in the process. Our board knew full well what we were going to get with Mourinho and I don't see him changing his approach if he does stick around for few more years.
I haven't had time to watch much of these football shows but I was at home for Holi holidays and tuned into Football Today: Journalist Show day after our win vs Chelsea, you'd expect them to analyze the game and offer some praise for us and Mourinho to turn it around (Conte's Chelsea hadn't lost a PL match after scoring 1st goal till then) but nothing of that sort, entire time was devoted to how this is not the United way and fans won't be happy with they're seeing on the pitch. You'd expect the host (Manish Bhasin) to stray the conversation onto the other spectrum but even he asked something related to Pogba's performance and they spent few minutes criticizing him. The segment came to an end with Jason Burt saying and I quote 'This is not the era of Jose Mourinho, these era belongs to Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp'
Unfortunately for us and any other team, football isn't played in isolation. Liverpool forced us to play that way in the 2nd half, they were more aggressive to the 2nd balls and the recoveries meaning we didn't have the time we had in 1st half. Even Mourinho alluded to the fact that 2nd half performance was not planned. As far as the 3rd goal is concerned, it's not like they deliberately didn't want to score. Just that they didn't want to over-commit to get that 3rd goal and instead let Liverpool a route back in. Also, I felt Liverpool could've have attacked for another 2 hours and not score prior to Bailly's OG, that's how confident I was in watching us defend.
Your talk about possession doesn't make a lot of sense to me especially when the rivals are City and Liverpool who like to press higher up the pitch and like to exploit space behind, we're always going to concede possession to teams of that nature. We don't have the personnel in defence and midfield to bypass the press.
Also, Mourinho has built an entire career playing like that and funny thing is it has worked for most part. In the famous Slippy G season, his Chelsea side won 16pts out of possible 18 vs Top 4 scoring most goals and conceding least goals in these games in the process. Our board knew full well what we were going to get with Mourinho and I don't see him changing his approach if he does stick around for few more years.
Because this way of working was widely torn apart prior to the wins against Chelsea and now Liverpool. Suggestions that Mourinho's approach to bigger games was no longer relevant was supported by evidence that he was losing more of these games than winning. Yesterday was spot on. Salah didn't have a kick and Mourinho has rightly been praised for that.
What I'm trying to do is highlight why we (or any side) will come in for criticism for sitting back like we did in the second half if the result doesn't justify it.
It's why Spurs can get dumped out of the Champions League and come in for next to no criticism. Whether you like it or not, the perceived positivity is met with praise. Had Spurs gone a goal up, sat back and defended for the full second half and still lost, I can absolutely guarantee you that they would have been battered this week for 'going against their principles'. Media and football fans pick plucky beauty over savvy brawn every single time.
We managed the result like Juve did against Spurs after getting the goals they needed.
You're absolutely right in that there's no way I'm going back to watch the game again! Lol.
I will counter the Mata chance with the Van Dijk header so 3-1 should've been the half time score.
With regards the Lovren arm/elbow, this is why it's good to engage in discussion rather than just going full muppet and getting carried away with things. Don't mean you do by the way, just some people do and it brings nothing to the discussion or the forum.
Yes, the Fellaini sub, combined with the few minutes Bailly was down definitely halted our momentum, and as he always does allowed you to be able to hit him as an out ball when needed.Yes, I would tend to agree with that.
Just seems that it can be the pattern of the (our) game these days vs. the serious opposition. And especially with a lead on the scoreboard.
Just said somewhere else, the Fellaini sub was good work from Jose in getting Utd back up the park - to halfway, at least,
I agree. I can be Jose's biggest critic when he deserves it but believe in being honest and balanced when the tactics are right I will applaud them. Yesterday the tactics were bang on. At the time I wasn't happy about the Rashford substitution because when you are trying to play on the break his pace and directness can be a major plus. I understood the reason he gave about his yellow card and Neville's comments.
Fellaini came on and he stopped the only problem we had with crosses from corners. Even though Bailey made a mistake he didn't let it get to him and is game from there on was maybe even better than it had been before the mistake. Yesterday was the best of Jose IMHO.
It's laughable at this point, we didn't dominate possession in 1st half but we looked like scoring every time we were on counter. We played some fantastic, slick football in the process too. You pointed out Mata chance but there was also a chance few mins before that when Sanchez played a 1 time pass to Mata, who played into Lukaku who tried to put Sanchez through but their RB cut it out. Best pieces of football was played by us but since we scored off 2 long balls, that will be lost on ABUs.
Not really. The media have a love in for Spurs especially being a London club. Just like they did with Arsenal in the late 90s and 00s.
If we had gone gung ho and ended up drawing 2-2. The media would have criticised us for not seeing the game out and being far too open.
You're creating arguments out of thin air. I'm not criticising our approach to yesterday's game so asking me whether or not Mata scores in entirely irrelevant. Whether he scored or not, we would have done the same thing and in my opinion it was inevitable and completely justified.
I'm also aware that it doesn't curry favour with journalists (which doesn't really matter but this is the crux of the issue here) and will piss off fans after the fact if it doesn't come off. Even yesterday, a substitution that was completely correct (Fellaini sorted out the corner problem and helped grab a footing in midfield) paying United supporters viewed the move as negative and began to boo. Look at the McTominay pass back. You and I did know he did the right thing with the ball, but the fans wanted more positivity and urgency.
It's why there are still questions posed regarding our style of play, even when we deservedly win. In yesterday's case I disagree, but I can certainly see where it comes from.
Spurs should have sat back though. It's their lack of game management that cost them, even Poch admitted that in a round about say.
We lie second in the top 6 table, if we beat City away that means we will have beaten every top side in England this year.
Jose's record v top sides is just fine, thats why you'll see the big game narrative shift from every game to just away games.
We have won every single game that we've scored first in this season, I think it's only the freak game v Leicester and Stoke away that we've dropped points in a game when we've taken the lead.
Your what if scenarios is nothing to the huge sample size of Jose knowing what this side needs to do to keep hold of a lead.
Jose is world class at adapting his sides to the opposition. He doesnt have a blanket way of defending a lead that gets exploited from time to time like Klopp has.
Absolutely. The goals dictated the game and gave us the luxury of deciding how we wanted to play it. Liverpool had to come out to press the game, we didn't. At 0-0 we did and that's why we were 2-0 up. Honestly I get the idea about how we use to play but people are absolutely delusional if they think at 2-0 in the past we'd be chasing a third. Like said previously, lost count the times under SAF, I sat there at OT thinking we are going to conceded a goal. Inevitably the other team did, and we were then left chasing a goal in the last 10mins.....
Exactly, people want us to be as mindless as the Klopp team and approach yesterday. what did they get for having 70% possession. they were lucky to score a goal. it was a freak one. they would have played for a couple hours more they wouldn't have scored.
outsmarting your opponent to win against him involves being pragmatic. City tried to play them out of the park, they conceded 4 goals against them.
I really think the scoreline flattered Liverpool. We played intelligently, they played like headless chicken, no plan B, just following with their usual play when it was obvious from the first 10 minutes that Jose set up to counter that.
And Those are the same people that were slating us when Jose buckled under the pressure of the media and tried to play spurs out of the park at Wembley.
Do people think that the liverpool supporters are feeling good after they had 65% ....
We were inches away from going 3-0 up within 40 minutes of the game... And Liverpool hadn't even had a shot on target by then.
As for the possession rubbish - we've beaten:
Tottenham with 45%
Arsenal with < 30%
Chelsea < 45%
Liverpool < 35%
Having the ball isn't imperative for us.
I think people have to be realistic as well.
We are clearly still weak in certain areas so Mourinho has made us difficult to beat. The Lindeloff transfer hasn't worked out yet and a new centre half and full back/s will likely be addressed in the summer.
The majority of the squad we have is still not Jose's yet. He's got a mix of the SAF/Moyes/LvG era as he didn't have the luxury that Pep did in transferring the whole squad and bringing in his own back 5.
In short I think we are doing what we can with what we have got. Yes we have spent money but we still have work to do. I think people forget this at times.
Surely only United could get a win against a team in the to 6 and one of their most bitterest of rivals with relative ease (they had 2 shots on target, same as us), and have it be turned into a negative.
Other way around and Liverpool would be praised for being resilient and and showing tactical astuteness, and Spurs would be lauded. But because we didn't put 8 on them and have 90% possession it's almost seen as a hollow victory.
Other way around and Liverpool would be praised for being resilient and and showing tactical astuteness, and Spurs would be lauded. But because we didn't put 8 on them and have 90% possession it's almost seen as a hollow victory.
Spurs got away with "naivety" this week because the perception is that they play nice football. Right or wrong, it's the case. Liverpool will get away lightly for the same reason.
It isn't right, but I'm attempting to look at it from a different outlook, which is why I can see where Sam Wallace is coming from. He didn't really criticise us.
I don't disagree.
Of course any tactics isn't 100% proof to work all the time but this one does, I am sure you must have read a stat as to United haven't lost a PL game after being 2-0 up at HT. In fact we have only lost 3 out of 350 odd games in PL at home where we have scored first. What do you deduce from that? It's okay to drop back and protect your lead if it's needed. I mean Mourinho went 8 years without losing a home game at 1 point, even during his time here only 1 team has beaten us at home and most will agree they're just a superior side to us.
You talk about our history and tradition, how many times did this place have a moan in SAF's last few seasons where we started to sit deep and play 'zombie football' whenever in lead? It's not a concept exclusive to the current regime.
I'm sorry but that just doesn't make any sense to me, there will always be 'ifs' and 'buts' from media and the fans if results don't come. That's how football works, it's always perfect in hindsight.
And both of them are utter idiots for it, getting dumped out of competition because of some self-righteous belief to not betray the principles to earn some brownie points is not smart. In fact it's polar opposite of it, it's extremely stupid. You play the hand you're dealt with, in all tight games/cup ties they're often decided by few mistakes and if you capitalize on it. You wait for your opponent to commit another which you try and exploit again, it's game management and Spurs failed to do that.
Also, I'm willing to bet good amount if we hire a hipster total football manager after Jose who'd play good football but lose big games/cup ties he'd get absolutely no leverage from media or the fans for 'sticking with United principles'. We fans have been spoiled for so long, we want success as well as great football. Either one in isolation and we'll continue to maon.
I don’t bother consuming much football media anymore because the agendas are absolutely unbearable.
Mourinho has played it right against Chelsea in the second half and Liverpool in the first half. We still aren’t as proactive as I’d like, but we’ve beaten Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool this season, so some progress is being made.
I couldn’t give a stuff that Liverpool had 70% possession yesterday because they didn’t look like scoring throughout the game - De Gea didn’t even need a shower afterwards.
Mourinho has played it right against Chelsea in the second half and Liverpool in the first half. We still aren’t as proactive as I’d like, but we’ve beaten Arsenal, Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool this season, so some progress is being made.
I couldn’t give a stuff that Liverpool had 70% possession yesterday because they didn’t look like scoring throughout the game - De Gea didn’t even need a shower afterwards.
I'm getting really annoyed with people calling yesterday's match smash and grab, it was anything but that. DDG didn't have to make one good save, their only goal was scored by our player and their forwards looked clueless the whole match.
The funny thing is that Fergie played like we did yesterday against the big teams but everyone has the memory of a fish it seems.
Look, I can take the media slagging Jose off and comparing him unfavourably to Guardiola this season. City are miles clear and they play nice football, I don't like admitting that but it's true and there's little argument against that.
What really annoys me is when you get journalists disparaging Jose and Utd and acting like he's behind Klopp and Pochettino. We're ahead of both of them in the league, and with a decent gap, and Jose has won 2 trophies compared to their zero even though they've both been at their clubs for longer.
To suggest Liverpool are ahead of us is just mental.
What really annoys me is when you get journalists disparaging Jose and Utd and acting like he's behind Klopp and Pochettino. We're ahead of both of them in the league, and with a decent gap, and Jose has won 2 trophies compared to their zero even though they've both been at their clubs for longer.
To suggest Liverpool are ahead of us is just mental.
Used to play like this against Arsenal all the time.
You're forgetting the anti Jose brigade on here.
There's a limit as to how far they can go after a win but the Bailly own goal and a freaking sub is a God send to them.
Utd may have won but the hypothetical and hugley unlikely draw is what's important
I think this conversation in the general sense is about the nature of football & the construction of a match narrative.
In essence, that is about the pattern of play combined with the state of the scoreboard. Pattern of play will tend to be dictated by the team with exceptionally quick forwards, or the giant forward or the dominant offensive player/s who are just ''too good'' in the simplest terms. I'm sure we've all seen that happen. That's my view anyway. Other's might say 'ball retention' or call it 'goal threat' I don't know. xG, number of corners take your pick, but something establishes a pattern of play that each us perceive isn't it? XYZ FC are going to score in a minute, this game is a certain 0-0 or it's very even or what ever..
And then there's the score - goals count the same regardless of how you've scored them or the supporting pattern of play by which they have been obtained.
Combine those factors & the watcher has their narrative, each watcher with a (slightly, cough) different view depending on bias, playing experience, attention span of guide dog or whatever.
And then there's the print & tv media who are doing it for vested interest, sales & revenue usually, they seem less interested in the accuracy sometimes than even us lot are, looning about on an internet forum - and this is a relatively sensible internet forum, compared to some I could name.
So, narrow win for Utd, LFC must have been robbed in some way... oh look at the possession & all those penalties what should have been given - even when the actuality might be slightly different to that - it's not as a good a story.
Liverpool - pure & wholesome, nice to watch, Klopp's a character, funny & passionate isn't he?
Utd - dark arts, we don't like Mourinho & that isn't going to change.
And my final thought on this ramble which has already gone on too long. England (Utd) beat Germany (LFC) exactly like that - different again isn't it?
I think Utd rode their luck a bit 2nd half & didn't show a lot of ambition but that wasn't quite the story of the 1st half. And 3-1 might have been a fair HT score, I wonder if that would have changed the play in the 2nd half or changed perceptions of the match. 3 goals are a bit harder to dismiss away in a credit-less way than the pesky couple scored with jam on the break, allegedly.
On the other hand, there are people saying Utd were magnificent & always in control of the game. I think that's pushing it a little bit, tbh.
In essence, that is about the pattern of play combined with the state of the scoreboard. Pattern of play will tend to be dictated by the team with exceptionally quick forwards, or the giant forward or the dominant offensive player/s who are just ''too good'' in the simplest terms. I'm sure we've all seen that happen. That's my view anyway. Other's might say 'ball retention' or call it 'goal threat' I don't know. xG, number of corners take your pick, but something establishes a pattern of play that each us perceive isn't it? XYZ FC are going to score in a minute, this game is a certain 0-0 or it's very even or what ever..
And then there's the score - goals count the same regardless of how you've scored them or the supporting pattern of play by which they have been obtained.
Combine those factors & the watcher has their narrative, each watcher with a (slightly, cough) different view depending on bias, playing experience, attention span of guide dog or whatever.
And then there's the print & tv media who are doing it for vested interest, sales & revenue usually, they seem less interested in the accuracy sometimes than even us lot are, looning about on an internet forum - and this is a relatively sensible internet forum, compared to some I could name.
So, narrow win for Utd, LFC must have been robbed in some way... oh look at the possession & all those penalties what should have been given - even when the actuality might be slightly different to that - it's not as a good a story.
Liverpool - pure & wholesome, nice to watch, Klopp's a character, funny & passionate isn't he?
Utd - dark arts, we don't like Mourinho & that isn't going to change.
And my final thought on this ramble which has already gone on too long. England (Utd) beat Germany (LFC) exactly like that - different again isn't it?
I think Utd rode their luck a bit 2nd half & didn't show a lot of ambition but that wasn't quite the story of the 1st half. And 3-1 might have been a fair HT score, I wonder if that would have changed the play in the 2nd half or changed perceptions of the match. 3 goals are a bit harder to dismiss away in a credit-less way than the pesky couple scored with jam on the break, allegedly.
On the other hand, there are people saying Utd were magnificent & always in control of the game. I think that's pushing it a little bit, tbh.
What I hate about those so called pundits is they're really worried about us, United fans, and are speaking about United of old, how we played before and that United fans don't like to see United play like they're playing right now. They know exactly how few hundred million or more fans feel. And they recall the United of old, while Fergie was managing us. Thing is, everybody hated us back then too, sure media would write a nice article about us from time to time and they praise Fergie and all but every now and then they would made up stories and try to worsen the atmosphere, we were big and successful and they loved to hate us. Even rival fans are really worried about our style of play and they're worried about us, United fans. They know what is good for us like they want us get back to the top.
The hell they want, I'd say they're all a bit worried we're on track to get back where we were and they need to publish and write all sort of bollocks.
Unfortunately many of our fans buy into that and are worried back what media thinks about us. They will portray even yesterday's win as something not good or at least they'll be quiet until the next bad game when they'll come from under the surface.
I don't care one bit, I just find it both funny and tiresome at this point. For instance made up stories about some beef between Jose and Pogba. They were going with it every day and surprise surprise there's nothing in it.
The hell they want, I'd say they're all a bit worried we're on track to get back where we were and they need to publish and write all sort of bollocks.
Unfortunately many of our fans buy into that and are worried back what media thinks about us. They will portray even yesterday's win as something not good or at least they'll be quiet until the next bad game when they'll come from under the surface.
I don't care one bit, I just find it both funny and tiresome at this point. For instance made up stories about some beef between Jose and Pogba. They were going with it every day and surprise surprise there's nothing in it.
Having two young players brought through academy playing such a huge part in yesterday's game only made the win sweeter. Not only did Jose beat the team that gets more praise than us, he done it with two young players when he gets accused of not playing young players and one of the journalists is talking about it. Just made the win that much better and I'm loving all the bitterness, it will make that make the next league win so much better.
Was about to say that.
And only Liverpool and perhaps Arsenal can lose yet recieve all the praise. I guess that says a lot about the expectations at those clubs...
Also talking about Pochettino and Klopp winning nothing they went on to say that winning trophies isn't that important anymore there are more things in football these days than winning trophies. They sighted Arsenal fans wanting Wenger out even though he has won trophies to prove their point.
This is seriously cringeworthy at times
Agree and that's why it's more than winning at times. The narrative is always important here as much as the result otherwise the winning becomes soulless.
It was obvious that all those "Decorated top class writers" forgot to mention that the "World Class" Liverpool attack who are more equipped to win the league could score only twice against United in their previous 4 meetings. 1 of them was a Penalty and the other was an own goal.
Fcuking M*r*ns.
Fcuking M*r*ns.
The agenda in the media is beyond sickening at this moment. The fact that they even think they can speak for our fans is laughable with all this “not sustainable” nonsense etc.
I’ve been pretty critical at times this season, as I have a right to be and everyone is entitled to their own view. Would I ideally like to see us dominate the game more? From a personal point of view, I really enjoy that style seeing chance after chance. Does that mean I’m unhappy with the way we won yesterday? Absolutely not. If we win I really couldn’t care less how it’s done.
Do I want to see pretty football if it means we win nothing but the moral trophy? Absolutely not. Football is about winning. This seems lost on a lot of modern fans and hipsters alike. The ironic thing is that, the god of that movement is Pep who definitely places winning above all else. That is why he’s been so successful, just like Mourinho.
Coaches like Klopp and Poch really could learn a thing or two from real managers who have experience at getting over the line on a regular basis.
I’ve been pretty critical at times this season, as I have a right to be and everyone is entitled to their own view. Would I ideally like to see us dominate the game more? From a personal point of view, I really enjoy that style seeing chance after chance. Does that mean I’m unhappy with the way we won yesterday? Absolutely not. If we win I really couldn’t care less how it’s done.
Do I want to see pretty football if it means we win nothing but the moral trophy? Absolutely not. Football is about winning. This seems lost on a lot of modern fans and hipsters alike. The ironic thing is that, the god of that movement is Pep who definitely places winning above all else. That is why he’s been so successful, just like Mourinho.
Coaches like Klopp and Poch really could learn a thing or two from real managers who have experience at getting over the line on a regular basis.
It hasn't felt like a smash and grab at all. The game actually felt a lot easier than I thought it'd be when I saw the lineups.
Did you even have a shot on target in the second half? You had a few dangerous moments, yes, but generally I felt United were as comfortable as you can be in such a big game.
I genuinely feel sorry for them, imagine not being able to enjoy a win against Pool properly because you have to rationalise some criticism. Sad state of affairs