I thought it was barely a foul to be honest... But its very hard to have any sympathy for them.
'Tactical' fouls
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Stonewall 2nd yellow, turned away from the ball and even though shoulder to shoulder its a deliberate foul. Same as Matic, deliberate and more importantly blatant attempt to play the man and not the ball. Red card all day.
I'm not even sure that was a foul. There's no momentum from Zinchenko there, it's shoulder to shoulder and Winks is weak as piss.
Yes, though no real point to bump that thread even. It was always going to be a yellow and it is indeed always a yellows. Yes, even for City... The fact that, incidentally, it was a second one probably caused the dump.
Thanks.
Trouble is that nobody here made a comment about Guardiola's obvious use of these - just the usual was it / wasn't it a red.
Thanks again
I agree as a Tottenham supporter that it's "softish" but you can't just take down the man every time a counter is on and they got what was coming to them.
Although the likes of Rodri and Fernandinho are somehow impervious to cards from it.
fecking hell its as clear cut a “tactical foul” as you will see, no attempt to get the ball, wasn’t even looking at the ball, eyes were solely on Winks and trying to break down the counter. Yellow card all day long.
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A clean shoulder charge is usually when both players are going in the same direction, Zinchenko was clearly wanting simply to obstruct Winks. Obstruction if it was still mentioned in any part of the game.
Winks made the most of it, but there is zero attempt to get the ball, Zinchenko just trying to impede his progress.
Pretty much, no attempt to get the ball, no where near an angle to get the ball simply wanted to take the foul.
Harsh sending off but I've got zero sympathy for them. Tactical fouling is so ingrained in their players they forget when they've been booked. They've been getting away with this game breaking shit for about 4 years now, nice to see them finally get called on it. feck em. Just a shame it wasn't that cnut Fernandinho.
These cnuts have ruined our league with their bottomless pit of blood money and their cheap shit house tactics. Unpopular opinion, but I'm glad they aren't winning the league.
Fernandinho should have the most red cards in PL history, yet I don't think he has any. He's been at this shit for years. 4/5 yellow card offences every game, never even gets booked.
These cnuts have ruined our league with their bottomless pit of blood money and their cheap shit house tactics. Unpopular opinion, but I'm glad they aren't winning the league.
what?! Winks was running past him easily with momentum, Zinchenko steps across his path to block him. Clear as day 2nd yellow.
Two players fouled him 5 times in 20 minutes.. I have seen Fernadinho foul 5 times in less than 10 min without getting a card.
Winks could have stayed on his feet, much like the City lad could have done for the Matic foul. It is a foul but really, its down to the opposition to get you sent off there... neither Zinchenko or Matic stepped across them, just kinda barged them a bit... not enough to really knock someone over unless they want to go down. At which point it becomes a foul.
Winks was running past him easily with momentum, Zinchenko steps across his path to block him. Clear as day 2nd yellow.
I said at the time I thought Matic's second was soft because the City player could have stayed on his feet, but obviously didn't ... so I have to be consistent!
Like I said, it is a foul, but it easily could not have been.
Herrera got booked for the first two fouls he commited, it was ridiculous.
They played on the break and Hazard was their outball. He litetally had the ball all the time he came forward so no shit he got fouled a bit more.
I brought this up towards the start of the season.....
Cast your mind back to the 17th of August, Man City were at home to Spurs in the game that finished 2-2; on the 26th minute Raheem Sterling get's booked for a tactical foul & they collectively lose the plot. In isolation this doesn't seem significant, but 3 weeks earlier when Neville and Carragher were doing their day with the ref's one change highlighted was tactical fouling would be an automatic yellow card this year & in fairness to them, they have followed through. I think they had recieved a similar card in the opening game against West ham in the 5-0 victory the week before.
The bookings themselves don't have a huge impact on the season, but when you look at the reaction to the one against spurs in particular, it felt like there was a realisation that city had lost their Superpower. No longer was Fernandino going to get away with 3 per game and every opposition turnover immediately stopped with a tactical foul to allow them to regroup & when you look at the nature of alot of the goals they have conceded this year, it backs up the hypothesis.
Honestly, it sounds OTT, but I think Pep was stripped of his (not so secret) secret weapon that day.
Cast your mind back to the 17th of August, Man City were at home to Spurs in the game that finished 2-2; on the 26th minute Raheem Sterling get's booked for a tactical foul & they collectively lose the plot. In isolation this doesn't seem significant, but 3 weeks earlier when Neville and Carragher were doing their day with the ref's one change highlighted was tactical fouling would be an automatic yellow card this year & in fairness to them, they have followed through. I think they had recieved a similar card in the opening game against West ham in the 5-0 victory the week before.
The bookings themselves don't have a huge impact on the season, but when you look at the reaction to the one against spurs in particular, it felt like there was a realisation that city had lost their Superpower. No longer was Fernandino going to get away with 3 per game and every opposition turnover immediately stopped with a tactical foul to allow them to regroup & when you look at the nature of alot of the goals they have conceded this year, it backs up the hypothesis.
Honestly, it sounds OTT, but I think Pep was stripped of his (not so secret) secret weapon that day.
If you're running full tilt and somebody body checks you, you're hitting the deck.
Even if they could have stayed on their feet why would they? it's down to the defender not to foul. He intentionally did.
Zinchenko DID clearly step into him.
Glad refs are cottoning on to this. I think it will be a while before teams like City and Liverpool will be punished regularly though. This is what has allowed their style of football to thrive.
I think your missing the point this wasn't a challenge for the ball simply a took the foul , didn’t even look at the ball.
In theory Winks could have stayed on his feet. He'd have lost a lot of momentum though and probably staggered a couple of strides. And the 2v1 situation Spurs had racing into the City half would have likely become a 2v3 in City's favour as Winks would have lost enough pace and space to hit that City would have got the two nearest players back to help their solitary defender. Zinchenko did it because Spurs were almost certainly going to have a good goalscoring opportunity in 3-4 seconds time.
I don't understand why few are saying it was soft, it was clear yellow and he knew exactly what he was doing. Deserved red card.
Some of you seem to have no idea what obstruction is.
Clear foul.
Clear foul.
I suggest you watch it again. It could easily not have been had Zinchenko had any ideas about going for the ball and not been staring at Winks the entire time trying to block him.
It was as blatant a foul as it gets.
Which was the original reason I started this thread so long ago.
It's blatant cheating that doesn't really get the punishment it deserves. It's a straight red for bringing the man down when you're the last man back because you know full well you've cheated to stop them scoring, this should be just as bad.
You know there's no chance that good goalscoring opportunity is going to happen because a player can just completely barge a player or kick them and just get a yellow when the reality is there's never any intent for going for the ball so it should really be a straight red.
I got the notification for someone replying to this thread and had forgotten how angry it makes me but talking about what Zinchenko did and how obviously it was just cheating because he can get away with it (alright he got a second yellow but he wouldn't be off had he not been booked already).
Tactical cheating. Somehow allowed and absolutely fine in the modern game. Completely against the spirit of the game and shit to see yet absolutely fine cause all you get is a yellow at worst.
Exactly what I said earlier, obstruction seems to never be heard of now. Again it’s not how dangerous the challenge was it’s the reason the “challenge” was made. Winks was challenged for no other reason than to foul him and stop the play.
I think the more games we end up with 5 a side the less it'll happen which is what we want.
Might see more goals too due to many attacks actually happening instead of being stopped by a deliberate attempt.
Chelsea committed 21 fouls yesterday and did not receive a single yellow card. Many of these fouls occurred after we beat their initial press and looked like penetrating their mid-block and getting into dangerous areas, the very definition of a ‘tactical foul’ in the modern game. Southampton were very aggressive in this regard last Monday, too, and similarly got away scot-free (Romeu should’ve been sent off, for example).
Why are officials allowing this? Why are managers allowed to pressurise officials before a game with inflammatory comments regarding opposition, like Lampard did earlier in the week, thus potentially influencing proceedings?
It may sound like sour grapes - and maybe it is - but Southampton and Chelsea have shown the blueprint of how to beat us now, with the assistance of weak refereeing: press high and aggressively, be overly physical in the tackle and foul, foul, foul should United’s attackers look like exposing you after your initial press is beaten. Other teams experience this shithousery too and it is ruining the entertainment of the game.
If officials started dishing out cautions and red cards accordingly, maybe managers would stop endorsing such abhorrent and unsporting tactics.
Why are officials allowing this? Why are managers allowed to pressurise officials before a game with inflammatory comments regarding opposition, like Lampard did earlier in the week, thus potentially influencing proceedings?
It may sound like sour grapes - and maybe it is - but Southampton and Chelsea have shown the blueprint of how to beat us now, with the assistance of weak refereeing: press high and aggressively, be overly physical in the tackle and foul, foul, foul should United’s attackers look like exposing you after your initial press is beaten. Other teams experience this shithousery too and it is ruining the entertainment of the game.
If officials started dishing out cautions and red cards accordingly, maybe managers would stop endorsing such abhorrent and unsporting tactics.
Yep, it's an absolute blight in the game. More cynical than anything else.
It was a bit of a farce. We lost and deservedly so but the tone was set when Azpilicueta came through the back of Martial and no card was shown.
Might be true about the Azpi one but even the ref saw your were pretty soft yesterday.
weak referees, Pep use this shit every week and he is being applauded for being smart for using the tactical fouls ( when he denies it every time he is being confronted about it) and yesterday Lampard when being asked about the 21 fouls they made he say he is proud of the team for being passionate. This is shit and and referees must take more actions against them. Making many tactical fouls even if they are mild should count and the player should get a yellow card for doing that multiple times.
No excuses for losing yesterday but Chelsea made a lot of those without getting punished
When the ref was allowing those tackles it set the tone and United should’ve responded in kind. We were too soft as said above. Make the game dirty and then the ref has to act.
So other way of saying you were thugs.
How do you mean the ref spotted that our players were soft, and why is assessing that part of the referee's job? He obviously deemed them to have been fouled 21 times. That's about one foul every four minutes (not to mention the ones he didn't call, like the one on Martial). It's pretty hard to get into a rhythm when every attacking opportunity can be broken up with a foul, and none of the players committing them need to take a step back because none of them are on a yellow card.
It's the perfect way to defend because it allows you to both press like animals, which Chelsea did very well, but also park the bus, since you just commit a foul every time your press is beaten and then players don't have to waste energy to rush back because they can just jog back into their defending positions once you've committed the foul. That's exactly the game-destroying shithousery that refs are there to prevent, by ensuring a level playing field, but Dean's allowed Lampard to get into his head with his nonsensical claims about penalties, which is pretty much baseless as all calls bar one or two have been correct.
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Really, but Pogba’s first foul gets a yellow? We didn’t play particularly well, I think you deserved your win, and you’re far from the only team utilising this tactic successfully... but wise up, we don’t have to act hard to impress the referee.
Concussions are tricky. Once a player here at PT had a concussion that din't look bad because he didn't passed out, so he went on the field and continued playing. But he was basically playing on instinct, because he didn't remember how much time was left in the match, the result, how did he got on the pitch, etc. He was basically a zombie with athletic powers
I thought refs were told they can now book players for consecutive fouls from different players on the same team
Last night was a joke. Need to rid this from the game.
Last night was a joke. Need to rid this from the game.
It has been an absolute joke in the Southampton and Chelsea game. I'm suprised Ole hasn't commented on it.
I was fuming yesterday, not because of our awful play but because of the stuff they got away with.
Some of these fouls aren't even up for debate, they are cynical tactical fouls that players should be carded for early to make a statement.
We've been fairly criticised for not dealing with the press, but PLEASE tell me how it's easy to play that way when as soon as you break the lines you get tactically fouled to break up the play, time and time again, resulting in a horrible stop start game where the fitter team just has to press like maniacs knowing they can commit a foul once the line has broken.
It's an absolute joke. It isn't football.
I was fuming yesterday, not because of our awful play but because of the stuff they got away with.
Some of these fouls aren't even up for debate, they are cynical tactical fouls that players should be carded for early to make a statement.
We've been fairly criticised for not dealing with the press, but PLEASE tell me how it's easy to play that way when as soon as you break the lines you get tactically fouled to break up the play, time and time again, resulting in a horrible stop start game where the fitter team just has to press like maniacs knowing they can commit a foul once the line has broken.
It's an absolute joke. It isn't football.
I am not surprised he didnt. While he watches Chelsea hitting our players every two minutes, never saw him run from his seat to object to the referee about it to make a point. He sit on his chair and smile, Mr nice guy.