Targeting wingers

[Escobar]

Garnacho… nonidea what you guys are smoking.

I hope we go for an electric LW with some proper output

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Garnacho was a teenager thinking he had made it and acting like a big man. He was awful most games and was detrimental to our attacking play, and he was just generally an asshole, and his endless whining was so tedious to watch. He wasn't some star player, he was a mediocre player with good movement off the ball and directness. Just cheated on his girlfriend too with whom he got a kid with not long ago. Incredibly dislikeable person, and glad he's gone. Chelsea apparently wants to sell him this summer too, so it says something.

I never said he was a star player - I just said that he held the width well and, as you said, was direct with his dribbling. Not sure what the relevance of his infidelity is considering how many of our club legends have cheated on their partners.

 

[romanian_fan]

Well, considering no other player bar Amad can pass his man, we sure as hell need at least one winger. Most of this would be fixed if we'd have quality wing backs, but we don't and it's not like they're lying around everywhere.

I do think that Bruno might be off this summer and it's also the time for us to think about getting him off as he'd be 32 this autumn. With him gone, Cunha will go central and we need someone else on the left.

 

[Zumbi]

This is a divisive one but I'd have kept Garnacho around over taking the 40m. Our LW options are limited and he offers more width than Cunha. We could have easily sold him for more than 40m 12 months later had he not had a very public falling out with Amorim.

Considering how he’s been doing at Chelsea this season, that’s very optimistic.

 

[MadDogg]

Even when he was in poor form, he was still carrying the ball forward and holding the width, the latter of which Cunha cannot do.

If I remember correctly, the large bulk of the problems he caused was after Amorim benched him in the cup final for Mount, which was understandable as I (as a fan) was also pissed off with that decision. As far as I'm aware, he's not causing problems at Chelsea despite getting less gametime than he got at United, likely because there isn't a dickhead in the dugout who gladly throws his players under the bus to protect his own ego.

Garnacho created problems under ETH as well, being dropped multiple times due to poor attitude and liking social media posts criticising ETH. As far as I know he is also the only player Bruno has ever publicly namedropped as not having the right attitude. A few months later Bruno did say his attitude had improved, but the fact that there were so many signs in such a relatively short period under two different managers indicates that Garnacho's ego was far bigger than it had any right to be.

 

[Zumbi]

Even when he was in poor form, he was still carrying the ball forward and holding the width, the latter of which Cunha cannot do.

If I remember correctly, the large bulk of the problems he caused was after Amorim benched him in the cup final for Mount, which was understandable as I (as a fan) was also pissed off with that decision. As far as I'm aware, he's not causing problems at Chelsea despite getting less gametime than he got at United, likely because there isn't a dickhead in the dugout who gladly throws his players under the bus to protect his own ego.

No, it’s not understandable. He had been playing shit in the run up to the final and could have no complaints being dropped. For reference, he had started the previous league game against Spurs where he did FA and we also lost 1-0.

And even if he had been playing well and been dropped, publicly criticizing the manager for being on the bench is still not ok. Many, many players (including young ones) have been benched when they felt they deserved to play and have managed to remain professional and keep quiet about it.

Garanacho was a problem, the funds from selling him helped us reinvest in other players last summer, and every one of those signings has made key contributions in a season which is proving to be a vast improvement on last season. Getting rid of him was absolutely the right choice.

 

[davidmichael]

I should have specified in my OP that I wasn’t meaning we should have kept the wingers we had necessarily and more that being allowed to sell all the wingers we had bar Amad without bringing any back in should never have been allowed.

 

[Zumbi]

I should have specified in my OP that I wasn’t meaning we should have kept the wingers we had necessarily and more that being allowed to sell all the wingers we had bar Amad without bringing any back in should never have been allowed.

We did bring some in - Mbeumo’s best position is at RW, and now we have two very good options there. We had also brought in Dorgu in January, and if he was fit right now he’s very likely be starting or coming on as a LW. I agree, we’re clearly still short of another option at LW. But every single one of those players had to go last summer, and it was always going to be impossible to address every squad deficiency we had - there were simply too many to fix in one window.

 

[Trigestis]

I never said he was a star player - I just said that he held the width well and, as you said, was direct with his dribbling. Not sure what the relevance of his infidelity is considering how many of our club legends have cheated on their partners.

Not really relevant to him as a player, just mentioned it. But it just shows what he's like as a person, in combination with his previous fallouts with two managers and his whining for not playing, or being subbed. If he starts acting like that so early in his career, you can just imagine how he will be later on. He had to go, regardless of Amorim. And isn't it just Giggs and Rooney? I think if I remember right then we only found out about Giggs after he had retired too? Could be mistaken, though.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

No, it’s not understandable. He had been playing shit in the run up to the final and could have no complaints being dropped. For reference, he had started the previous league game against Spurs where he did FA and we also lost 1-0.

And even if he had been playing well and been dropped, publicly criticizing the manager for being on the bench is still not ok. Many, many players (including young ones) have been benched when they felt they deserved to play and have managed to remain professional and keep quiet about it.

Garanacho was a problem, the funds from selling him helped us reinvest in other players last summer, and every one of those signings has made key contributions in a season which is proving to be a vast improvement on last season. Getting rid of him was absolutely the right choice.

Mount also did feck all in his starts vs West Ham and Chelsea before the final. His cameo in the semi final second leg was one of his only impressive performances that season, so I understood Garnacho's frustration with being dropped for him. It also took Amorim far too long to make the sub in the final (71 minutes), which likely contributed to Garnacho's frustration.

Anyway, he's gone now and there are plenty of other ex-United players who I mourned the departure of more than Garnacho. As I said in my OP, I knew it was a divisive opinion, so I expected a few retorts. Just offering my two cents after seeing the state of our bench this season.

Considering how he’s been doing at Chelsea this season, that’s very optimistic.

We all knew that Chelsea was the wrong move for him considering how many attackers they have. Had he instead gone to Villa, for example, I think he'd be having a much more productive season.

 

[Glorio]

If "not good enough" is your standard, then a lot of players shouldn't be in our squad (e.g., Ugarte, Dalot etc. etc.)

In my book, having a medicore winger in the squad is better than having no wingers at all. We had our reasons to get rid of each one (too highly paid, too disruptive, too lazy etc. etc.) but I think the biggest reason was that we over committed to Amorim ball and the 3-4-3 and none of these guys had a role to play in that system.

Or said another way, if we had a 4 ATB manager, I don't think we would've gotten rid of all of our LW players.

tl;dr: INEOS fecked up. So far it hasn't costed us because Carrick is adapting just fine and we have a very short, injury free season.

Mbeumo and Amad are both wide players

 

[Chaky_Best]

I like Malick Fofana from Lyon, but he's quite injury prone.

He's quick and would provide a very good option on the left.

Maybe not a real finisher, but at least a real nuisance when he's on the pitch.

 

[RedSky]

We had a bloated squad full of average players. There were very few players when INEOS took over that in my mind deserved to wear the shirt. All of our attacking players bar Amad and Bruno were fecking shite and emotional baggage. Glad we got rid of them all, job well done as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Zumbi]

Mount also did feck all in his starts vs West Ham and Chelsea before the final. His cameo in the semi final second leg was one of his only impressive performances that season, so I understood Garnacho's frustration with being dropped for him. It also took Amorim far too long to make the sub in the final (71 minutes), which likely contributed to Garnacho's frustration.

Anyway, he's gone now and there are plenty of other ex-United players who I mourned the departure of more than Garnacho. As I said in my OP, I knew it was a divisive opinion, so I expected a few retorts. Just offering my two cents after seeing the state of our bench this season.


We all knew that Chelsea was the wrong move for him considering how many attackers they have. Had he instead gone to Villa, for example, I think he'd be having a much more productive season.

And if Mount had been dropped he would have had no complaints - but that’s literally the point: Mount behaves like a professional, Garnacho does not. That’s one of the key reasons we were right to get rid of him. No player should have a preordained right to start, and they should be mature and professional enough to recognise their value off the bench if that’s what the manager decides (much like Cunha, Sesko, Amad etc have done recently).

I don’t think the issue with Garnacho at Chelsea is how many attackers they’ve had - Gittens hasn’t been doing much and Garnacho had plenty of opportunities already this season. There’s also plenty of games to go around with Europe. The fundamental issue is he hasn’t been very good - just like he wasn’t very good for us last season (another very good reason to cash in on him). And that includes key defensive lapses which have cost goals as well as a lack of consistency in attack.

 

[dinostar77]

Best dribbler in the league, wonder how much he would cost?

 

[pascell]

Best dribbler in the league, wonder how much he would cost?

I think he'd cost too much if he doesn't have any type of release clause.

But Ndiaye or Diomande would be my preference.

 

[devilish]

This is a divisive one but I'd have kept Garnacho around over taking the 40m. Our LW options are limited and he offers more width than Cunha. We could have easily sold him for more than 40m 12 months later had he not had a very public falling out with Amorim.

Garnacho had to leave. He was toxic, his workrate wasn't great, he played for himself rather then for the team and he wasn't that good to start with. I've never seen so much ego in such a young player with so little talent. I shiver at the thought of him having Nani's talent let alone Cristiano's

 

[dinostar77]

I think he'd cost too much if he doesn't have any type of release clause.

But Ndiaye or Diomande would be my preference.

He'd get bums off seat with his ability to do the unexpected ala cherki.

 

[KikiDaKats]

Our lack of LW was created by the club and wont blame Amorim for not wanting specific players around because they wont fit into what he wanted to do. Not every bad decision has to be the fault of the manager or the incapable players, the people responsible for the long term health of the club should be making the right judgment call.

The club has done this for a while now, even when SAF was around. Hoping we have an inhouse solution when the need arises without even giving it a test run. One of Garnacho or Rashford should have been kept for their profile and if not for person but a replacement of type. Need not be of better quality even same but the actual profile. When you create such a clear need for everyone to see, it weakens your hand in negotiating for signings.

Us as a club+fanbase have this habit of wanting to crash and burn the whole squad or a position every time we fall out of love with an individual. Since SAF left and we moved on from our mindset of Fergie knows best, we developed this self harming attitude. Currently a basic Left Winger that can just hold the width to stretch teams and cross into the box for opportunities is all thats needed but where is he in the squad. Adding quality should by systemic not in the way we have been going about it lately. Keep 5 FBs + 2CB that can play FB but not 1 natural LW for the season. This is not on the manager, this kinda smells of being told manage the situation.

I think Malacia should have been let go and loan LW that could even just come in for the experience is it wasnt affordable or possible to bring a top class guy. Using covers should not be for 90 mins let alone half a season.

I really Eliman Ndiaye and Gordon both players I find more than interesting for various reasons. I cant see beyond them two right now. one of them has to be on our books next season, we can then add a young talent from the academy or elsewhere.

I don't make the case of Marcus Rashford at Manchester United because historically I've always argued against him in that position but thats by preference. As per the position I believe he should be playing, no chance we should ever consider getting rid but as a LW we could have brought in a natural LW cover till better shows up.

 

[Zumbi]

Garnacho had to leave. He was toxic, his workrate wasn't great, he played for himself rather then for the team and he wasn't that good to start with. I've never seen so much ego in such a young player with so little talent. I shiver at the thought of him having Nani's talent let alone Cristiano's

Nailed it.

 

[MCDC]

Jesús Rodríguez from Como, seems to be linked from not the greatest of sources as a potential LW signing.

According to some rumor's, we were interested last summer but due to the formation, we never pulled the trigger.

 

[lex talionis]

There should be no hang wringing here that none of Rashford, Sancho or Garnacho -- and while on the subject of wingers let's not forget Antony -- are nowhere to be found at Old Trafford these days. Each of their stories as to why they were shown the exit door has been told millions of times. And in every case it was the right decision.

What's regarded as a true left winger will be harder to find than most of us think, at least at a price United will be willing to pay. But we've had this discussion on another thread so there's no need to rehash it all here, but succinctly put if we bring in a true LW that means Cunha and Dorgu are sent to the bench, unless Bruno leaves and Cunha takes the Bruno role...but I don't see Bruno leaving this summer. And if Bruno does leave even with the 150m we'd get from a Saudi club we're significantly worse off in terms of squad quality.

The one who could be worth the splurge, provided we still have everything left in the warchest to spend the 150m we'll need to spend on central midfielders -- is Yan Diomande. Who knows what his price will be, but 100m is probably not out of the question.

 

[DWelbz19]

Best dribbler in the league, wonder how much he would cost?

I don’t watch Ndiaye and think he’s the answer. I don’t think there’s too much of a profile change to Cunha. I think he’s a little bit more natural at home on the left than Cunha and he’s a better dribbler and stronger first touch, but otherwise they’re similar sorts. Maverick players at lesser teams with good ball security and defensive diligence.

In the absence of a proper quality left back, I think we need an explosive left winger out there for profile sake. Someone who can stay high, wide, and burn the last line.

 

[dinostar77]

There should be no hang wringing here that none of Rashford, Sancho or Garnacho -- and while on the subject of wingers let's not forget Antony -- are nowhere to be found at Old Trafford these days. Each of their stories as to why they were shown the exit door has been told millions of times. And in every case it was the right decision.

What's regarded as a true left winger will be harder to find than most of us think, at least at a price United will be willing to pay. But we've had this discussion on another thread so there's no need to rehash it all here, but succinctly put if we bring in a true LW that means Cunha and Dorgu are sent to the bench, unless Bruno leaves and Cunha takes the Bruno role...but I don't see Bruno leaving this summer. And if Bruno does leave even with the 150m we'd get from a Saudi club we're significantly worse off in terms of squad quality.

The one who could be worth the splurge, provided we still have everything left in the warchest to spend the 150m we'll need to spend on central midfielders -- is Yan Diomande. Who knows what his price will be, but 100m is probably not out of the question.

What is the problem with having competition for places? Arsenal have such a strong squad that likes of Eze doesnt get into the starting XI.

Lack of strength in depth is one of our biggest weaknesses as a club and will cost us next season. When we are in four competitions.

 

[lex talionis]

What is the problem with having competition for places? Arsenal have such a strong squad that likes of Eze doesnt get into the starting XI.

Lack of strength in depth is one of our biggest weaknesses as a club and will cost us next season. When we are in four competitions.

We just had a long discussion about this last week on another thread.

The challenge I see is this: Our transfer budget this summer cannot be unlimited, but what's the limit? I have no idea but I can't imagine it's going to be north of 250m net. If you'll indulge me let's stipulate 250m net.

Without any doubt the highest priorities are two CMs, one more a 6 and the other more an 8. Further indulging me I submit that to bring in the quality we desperately we're looking at 150m. Could I be wrong and we really only need 100m? Of course, I could be wrong, but the market for truly top quality prospects today is such that I would be surprised if we could bring in two proper CMs for just 150m.

This next statement falls into the realm of opinion, but at least what I see as a greater weakness in the starting XI are our two fullbacks, Shaw and Dalot. I'm not hater of either and I actually don't mind them being squad players for us but it's obvious to me that as solid as Shaw has been this season for us it's also obvious he has nothing left to offer in attack. As for Dalot, he's put in some very good performances for us this season but he's also a weak link in the starting XI opponents often exploit. Mazraoui is a solid squad man, but that's about it. I pray to God that no one argues that Malacia is a suitable squad man for us. What will a proper LB and a RB cost us? Hard to say and although I've been impressed with the team that brought in Lammens for 18m I really can't see us bringing in two fullbacks for less than 40m each.

So far we're at 230m, but let's round that down to 200m.

If we do have the budget for a starting LW that's streets ahead of Cunha and Dorgu, who together cost us about 100m, such a player is going to cost us somewhere between 80-100m. If we have that kind of cash and PSR isn't a problem, let's pull the trigger.

But if your argument is that we only need competition for Cunha and not a replacement for him, we already have it -- Dorgu. Dorgu has shown real quality out wide, which is what I believe is the argument for a Cunha replacement, and he's eager to track back and do the dirty work. But if what you're really saying is that we need a third choice at LW, someone who is a pure dribbling maestro wide man I can get behind that gambit, but it's more than likely going to be a young player we take a punt on for a modest 15-20m and not someone who has any reason to believe will be a plug-n-play starter for us when he walks into the squad.

 

[Zumbi]

There should be no hang wringing here that none of Rashford, Sancho or Garnacho -- and while on the subject of wingers let's not forget Antony -- are nowhere to be found at Old Trafford these days. Each of their stories as to why they were shown the exit door has been told millions of times. And in every case it was the right decision.

What's regarded as a true left winger will be harder to find than most of us think, at least at a price United will be willing to pay. But we've had this discussion on another thread so there's no need to rehash it all here, but succinctly put if we bring in a true LW that means Cunha and Dorgu are sent to the bench, unless Bruno leaves and Cunha takes the Bruno role...but I don't see Bruno leaving this summer. And if Bruno does leave even with the 150m we'd get from a Saudi club we're significantly worse off in terms of squad quality.

The one who could be worth the splurge, provided we still have everything left in the warchest to spend the 150m we'll need to spend on central midfielders -- is Yan Diomande. Who knows what his price will be, but 100m is probably not out of the question.

Once again, completely ignoring the fact that we’ll have a massive amount of games if we qualify for Europe which means we’ll be utilizing the whole squad on the regular, rather than having designated “starters” or “bench” players.

I’ve replied to you in detail about this several times but you ignore it and then go on to repeat the same thing again and again.

We need more quality and depth in attack, and LW is a very obvious place we’re lacking a specialist.

 

[Zumbi]

What is the problem with having competition for places? Arsenal have such a strong squad that likes of Eze doesnt get into the starting XI.

Lack of strength in depth is one of our biggest weaknesses as a club and will cost us next season. When we are in four competitions.

Exactly. Arsenal and City don’t really have “starting XIs” - their line up constantly rotates with them always having strong options off the bench. Sometimes Foden starts, sometimes he doesn’t, same with Doku, Reijnders, Semenyo, Marmoush etc. And during our most successful periods we were the same - there was constant rotation and competition.

 

[IrwinwasbetterthanCarlos]

Exactly. Arsenal and City don’t really have “starting XIs” - their line up constantly rotates with them always having strong options off the bench. Sometimes Foden starts, sometimes he doesn’t, same with Doku, Reijnders, Semenyo, Marmoush etc. And during our most successful periods we were the same - there was constant rotation and competition.

I actually think Arsenal have gone a bit too far this season in terms of depth; how many centre backs do they need?

However, what you do need is a pool of 18 or so players (plus a handful of promising youngsters or veterans), a good few of whom are tactically flexible. Players like Cunha, Mbeumo and Amad shouldn’t be locked into the starting XI, they should be competing for places and kept on their toes.

I’d like us to sign another forward this summer, ideally someone with a good bit of pace, but I’m not too fussed on the specifics of them positionally, it’s for them to join the pool of forwards we already have. I want players knowing they need to perform to stay in the team and quality options on the bench to change games and win them.

 

[Zumbi]

I actually think Arsenal have gone a bit too far this season in terms of depth; how many centre backs do they need?

However, what you do need is a pool of 18 or so players (plus a handful of promising youngsters or veterans), a good few of whom are tactically flexible. Players like Cunha, Mbeumo and Amad shouldn’t be locked into the starting XI, they should be competing for places and kept on their toes.

I’d like us to sign another forward this summer, ideally someone with a good bit of pace, but I’m not too fussed on the specifics of them positionally, it’s for them to join the pool of forwards we already have. I want players knowing they need to perform to stay in the team and quality options on the bench to change games and win them.

Agreed. The fact that we have a incredibly light schedule and we’re still bringing Zirkzee on as an attacking sub shows us that our attacking depth and quality is not where it needs to be to compete in both the CL and PL.

I think Dorgu will prove to be one of those versatile squad players who will make appearances in a range of positions depending on the fitness, form and availability of others. Cunha and Mbeumo are also somewhat versatile.

 

[lex talionis]

Once again, completely ignoring the fact that we’ll have a massive amount of games if we qualify for Europe which means we’ll be utilizing the whole squad on the regular, rather than having designated “starters” or “bench” players.

I’ve replied to you in detail about this several times but you ignore it and then go on to repeat the same thing again and again.

We need more quality and depth in attack, and LW is a very obvious place we’re lacking a specialist.

You can pretend I've ignored it, yet it is you, my good friend, who ignores what I have repeatedly argued. Let me try this again for the gazillionth time and perhaps this time you will confront the point head on instead of ignoring it and then accusing me (all in good fun, no hard feelings, in fact next time you're in California let me know and I'll buy you the greatest beer in the world, Pliny the Elder) of the very thing you yourself do.

Let me start by stating what I think the concern is with Cunha and Dorgu, both of whom have undeniably started at LW for us this season is that they're just not good enough. To be specific, Cunha likes to drift in (as most wingers do these days) too often to take central positions on and off the ball; Dorgu, while stunningly brilliant at LW in his two performances at the position under Carrick, it's only been two performances and we can't be sure that he has it in him to perform at that kind insane level over the long haul. I do not dispute the reasonableness of these two observations -- that 1) Cunha isn't good enough and 2) Dorgu has too small a sample of brilliance on offer to come to any conclusion about whether he's capable of such high level performances over the course of a season. And thus we need a third LW, so the argument goes.

Not disputing the reasonableness of these two observations does not mean agreeing with them, but they are good faith arguments and deserve a good faith reply (yet again).

So, we either have a good faith argument that Cunha isn't good enough and that Dorgu can't be trusted to perform consistently at a high level or we have a good faith argument that Cunha and Dorgu just aren't enough bodies at LW to enable us to compete in all competitions next season. Since there's nowhere to go with the "Cunha isn't good enough and Dorgu can't be trusted" argument -- because they really are good enough for United -- we're really down to how deep do we really need the squad to be (sorry about the all caps coming up, no malice is intended) IN LIGHT OF THE YOUNG PLAYERS WE ALREADY HAVE AT LW.

Who are these alleged young players on the books already who can fill and do a job in league cup matches and spells when Cunha and Dorgu both need rest or are out with injury?

Shea Lacey. I will start with Shea Lacey who is a very highly regarded left-footed winger from Liverpool who has represented England at all levels so far in his young career. We've only watched him in snippets but what we've seen so far suggests he is capable of breaking into the first team next season. But he's only 19. The obvious reply to Lacey is that instead of giving him a chance we should consider spending 60-70m on a more suitable third choice behind Cunha/Dorgu to address the concern you've raised regarding the number of games we'll be playing next season. It could just be internet rubbish but it appears that Tuchel thinks so highly of Lacey that he has the young man training with the senior national team. It could be just United hype, but there is every reason to believe that United management highly regard Lacey, despite his recent red card.

JJ Gabriel. JJ, a LW, is only 16 years old so one level it's admittedly absurd to even think about him. On the other hand, he'll be 17 years old in October, which is not an absurdly young age to think about giving a prodigy left winger who's killing it at the U21 level a runout here and there if we get lucky with our draws in European and league cup opponents. Although he's as of this writing still only 15 he's been destroying U21 opposition, but for compliance reasons he is now being restricted to U18 play. What JJ will be capable of when he turns 17 is impossible for me to say, but the raving about him is historic -- he's literally being compared to Ryan Giggs. If you're looking for depth at LW, not someone to take the primary role of LW, you don't really need to look any further than our own roster of brilliant talent coming up from the youth ranks. Rumor has it that it's in United's DNA to give their brilliant young players a genuine chance to break into the first team.

Which leaves us with the following: If we think Cunha and Dorgu are in fact good enough to feature for United on a regular basis, but we would like to be three deep at every position...and we believe that there will be no room for either the left-footed Lacey or the right-footed Gabriel even for league cup matches and late substitutions, then we should look around for a promising young LW who would stand between Cunha/Dorgu and Lacey/Gabriel in the pecking order. But on what basis can we conclude that neither Lacey for Gabriel should be given a chance next season?

If our summer transfer budget had no restrictions whatsoever and we could spend as much as we wish, without any real limitations including PSR, then by all means AFTER (sorry) we shore up central midfield which will cost roughly 150m and AFTER (sorry) we shore up LB and RB which will cost roughly 60m and AFTER we shore up the 9 (behind Sesko) which will cost roughly 50m, then we can splurge the 80-100m on Diomande or 30-40m for a lesser LW. That roughly adds up to 300-400m, which we may indeed have in the warchest this summer but I have no reason to believe that will be the case.

 

[Zumbi]

You can pretend I've ignored it, yet it is you, my good friend, who ignores what I have repeatedly argued. Let me try this again for the gazillionth time and perhaps this time you will confront the point head on instead of ignoring it and then accusing me (all in good fun, no hard feelings, in fact next time you're in California let me know and I'll buy you the greatest beer in the world, Pliny the Elder) of the very thing you yourself do.

Let me start by stating what I think the concern is with Cunha and Dorgu, both of whom have undeniably started at LW for us this season is that they're just not good enough. To be specific, Cunha likes to drift in (as most wingers do these days) too often to take central positions on and off the ball; Dorgu, while stunningly brilliant at LW in his two performances at the position under Carrick, it's only been two performances and we can't be sure that he has it in him to perform at that kind insane level over the long haul. I do not dispute the reasonableness of these two observations -- that 1) Cunha isn't good enough and 2) Dorgu has too small a sample of brilliance on offer to come to any conclusion about whether he's capable of such high level performances over the course of a season. And thus we need a third LW, so the argument goes.

Not disputing the reasonableness of these two observations does not mean agreeing with them, but they are good faith arguments and deserve a good faith reply (yet again).

So, we either have a good faith argument that Cunha isn't good enough and that Dorgu can't be trusted to perform consistently at a high level or we have a good faith argument that Cunha and Dorgu just aren't enough bodies at LW to enable us to compete in all competitions next season. Since there's nowhere to go with the "Cunha isn't good enough and Dorgu can't be trusted" argument -- because they really are good enough for United -- we're really down to how deep do we really need the squad to be (sorry about the all caps coming up, no malice is intended) IN LIGHT OF THE YOUNG PLAYERS WE ALREADY HAVE AT LW.

Who are these alleged young players on the books already who can fill and do a job in league cup matches and spells when Cunha and Dorgu both need rest or are out with injury?

Shea Lacey. I will start with Shea Lacey who is a very highly regarded left-footed winger from Liverpool who has represented England at all levels so far in his young career. We've only watched him in snippets but what we've seen so far suggests he is capable of breaking into the first team next season. But he's only 19. The obvious reply to Lacey is that instead of giving him a chance we should consider spending 60-70m on a more suitable third choice behind Cunha/Dorgu to address the concern you've raised regarding the number of games we'll be playing next season. It could just be internet rubbish but it appears that Tuchel thinks so highly of Lacey that he has the young man training with the senior national team. It could be just United hype, but there is every reason to believe that United management highly regard Lacey, despite his recent red card.

JJ Gabriel. JJ, a LW, is only 16 years old so one level it's admittedly absurd to even think about him. On the other hand, he'll be 17 years old in October, which is not an absurdly young age to think about giving a prodigy left winger who's killing it at the U21 level a runout here and there if we get lucky with our draws in European and league cup opponents. Although he's as of this writing still only 15 he's been destroying U21 opposition, but for compliance reasons he is now being restricted to U18 play. What JJ will be capable of when he turns 17 is impossible for me to say, but the raving about him is historic -- he's literally being compared to Ryan Giggs. If you're looking for depth at LW, not someone to take the primary role of LW, you don't really need to look any further than our own roster of brilliant talent coming up from the youth ranks. Rumor has it that it's in United's DNA to give their brilliant young players a genuine chance to break into the first team.

Which leaves us with the following: If we think Cunha and Dorgu are in fact good enough to feature for United on a regular basis, but we would like to be three deep at every position...and we believe that there will be no room for either the left-footed Lacey or the right-footed Gabriel even for league cup matches and late substitutions, then we should look around for a promising young LW who would stand between Cunha/Dorgu and Lacey/Gabriel in the pecking order. But on what basis can we conclude that neither Lacey for Gabriel should be given a chance next season?

If our summer transfer budget had no restrictions whatsoever and we could spend as much as we wish, without any real limitations including PSR, then by all means AFTER (sorry) we shore up central midfield which will cost roughly 150m and AFTER (sorry) we shore up LB and RB which will cost roughly 60m and AFTER we shore up the 9 (behind Sesko) which will cost roughly 50m, then we can splurge the 80-100m on Diomande or 30-40m for a lesser LW. That roughly adds up to 300-400m, which we may indeed have in the warchest this summer but I have no reason to believe that will be the case.

If you’re going to write weird and condescending intro paragraphs about our most highly touted players - as if i haven’t already been tracking them or watching them play (along with any other fan who pays an interest in our youth set up) - then at least get the basic facts right. JJ isn’t 16 years old. JJ is currently 15 years old. He only turns 16 in October. He doesn’t turn 17 until October 2027. That’s why he’s not allowed to play for the u21s or the first team yet.

Shaping transfer policy for what we hope to be a CL and PL competing squad around the future prospects of a 15/16 year old is just silly. Dowman coming through didn't stop Arsenal getting Eze, and the former has still had first team chances whilst the latter has still also contributed. JJ and Lacey’s best bet is to come in as fringe players who will train and get some minutes alongside a talented and properly equipped senior first team squad. And right now we don’t have that. We still rely on the likes of Zirkzee, or Mount when he’s fit, to be able to come on and make an impact in attack. That’s not cutting it in our lightest game schedule ever, so it’s certainly not going to cut it when we’re playing 2/3 tough games a week.

And the club apparently agrees, despite their confidence in the talents of Lacey and Gabriel. Because we’re reportedly targeting a left winger this summer, which shouldn’t really be a surprise after we targeted such a player in January. So even if you’re entirely convinced we’re fine there and don’t need one, the people in charge don’t share your conviction. And many fans watching our recent struggles to break teams down seem to agree with the club’s assessment.

I’ve read your arguments and every time you fall back on the tired “so you’re benching x player” trope which, as I’ve explained, is not a sensible or meaningful way of looking at a squad competing on multiple fronts. No one seems to assess our rival’s squads in that manner. The best squads have very talented players on the bench each and every game. There is genuine competition for places.

Right now we only have eight senior players for four attacking berths, and that already feels light in depth and quality for the quietest game schedule we’ve ever had (Sesko, Mbeumo, Amad, Cunha, Bruno, Dorgu, Zirkzee, Mount).

Zirkzee is likely leaving, Mount can’t be relied upon (and certainly isn’t a winger), and I’d personally argue that Dorgu is more of a versatile squad option who can fill a variety of roles than a nailed on starter at LW. I’m certainly sceptical if he’s the right option there for breaking down a low block in games where we have possession.

Moving on Zirkzee and maybe Mount this summer and bringing in a LW and back up striker seems like an eminently sensible way of upgrading our squad - giving us both better depth and quality, both of which we need, whilst still allowing opportunities for the likes of Gabriel and Lacey in the coming years.

As for your transfer sums, you’re conveniently leaving out sales. Between Hojlund, Rashford, hopefully Zirkzee and Ugarte and a few other fringe sales, we’ll likely be able to bring in £100 million. If we spend money on a starting RB (which I hope we do) then we could add Dalot to the transfer list too. With some smart scouting I think it’s reasonable for us to get two new CMs and still invest in some other options at FB, LW and maybe a back up striker.

 

[lex talionis]

If you’re going to write weird and condescending intro paragraphs about our most highly touted players - as if i haven’t already been tracking them or watching them play (along with any other fan who pays an interest in our youth set up) - then at least get the basic facts right. JJ isn’t 16 years old. JJ is currently 15 years old. He only turns 16 in October. He doesn’t turn 17 until October 2027. That’s why he’s not allowed to play for the u21s or the first team yet.

Shaping transfer policy for what we hope to be a CL and PL competing squad around the future prospects of a 15/16 year old is just silly. Dowman coming through didn't stop Arsenal getting Eze, and the former has still had first team chances whilst the latter has still also contributed. JJ and Lacey’s best bet is to come in as fringe players who will train and get some minutes alongside a talented and properly equipped senior first team squad. And right now we don’t have that. We still rely on the likes of Zirkzee, or Mount when he’s fit, to be able to come on and make an impact in attack. That’s not cutting it in our lightest game schedule ever, so it’s certainly not going to cut it when we’re playing 2/3 tough games a week.

And the club apparently agrees, despite their confidence in the talents of Lacey and Gabriel. Because we’re reportedly targeting a left winger this summer, which shouldn’t really be a surprise after we targeted such a player in January. So even if you’re entirely convinced we’re fine there and don’t need one, the people in charge don’t share your conviction. And many fans watching our recent struggles to break teams down seem to agree with the club’s assessment.

I’ve read your arguments and every time you fall back on the tired “so you’re benching x player” trope which, as I’ve explained, is not a sensible or meaningful way of looking at a squad competing on multiple fronts. No one seems to assess our rival’s squads in that manner. The best squads have very talented players on the bench each and every game. There is genuine competition for places.

Right now we only have eight senior players for four attacking berths, and that already feels light in depth and quality for the quietest game schedule we’ve ever had (Sesko, Mbeumo, Amad, Cunha, Bruno, Dorgu, Zirkzee, Mount).

Zirkzee is likely leaving, Mount can’t be relied upon (and certainly isn’t a winger), and I’d personally argue that Dorgu is more of a versatile squad option who can fill a variety of roles than a nailed on starter at LW. I’m certainly sceptical if he’s the right option there for breaking down a low block in games where we have possession.

Moving on Zirkzee and maybe Mount this summer and bringing in a LW and back up striker seems like an eminently sensible way of upgrading our squad - giving us both better depth and quality, both of which we need, whilst still allowing opportunities for the likes of Gabriel and Lacey in the coming years.

As for your transfer sums, you’re conveniently leaving out sales. Between Hojlund, Rashford, hopefully Zirkzee and Ugarte and a few other fringe sales, we’ll likely be able to bring in £100 million. If we spend money on a starting RB (which I hope we do) then we could add Dalot to the transfer list too. With some smart scouting I think it’s reasonable for us to get two new CMs and still invest in some other options at FB, LW and maybe a back up striker.

We're not going to bring in a hundred million from the sales of Hojlund, Rashford, Zirkzee and Ugarte. Under the most optimistic of scenarios we're bringing 75m for those four, but that is a wildly optimistic hope. Hojlund will go for 38m and Rashford for 26m at best. Let's round that up to 70m. We can't be sure we can even get rid of Zirkzee on a free transfer and if we do find such a club without any question the striker we bring in to cover for Sesko will cost us at least 30m and I'm likely being wildly optimistic in making that claim. There will be no buyers for Ugarte, but even if we do find a buyer for Ugarte for 5m we would need a third CM (that's not going to happen for 5m) and not just the two CMs that we need already, which will undoubtedly require at least 150m from the warchest.

We can't ignore the greater needs -- central midfielders (2), fullbacks (2) and a backup striker (1). I suppose we can ignore the greater needs, but that would be foolish, and it's undeniable that they are the greater needs. If we can bring in 5 new players who would be regular starters for us it seems on the highly unlikely that we would have room in the budget for the LW that you're so desperate to bring in. This new LW would either be an upgrade to Cunha (let's pretend from now on Dorgu doesn't exist) or his cover. You can call it whatever you want, but if we found ourselves in a cup final this new LW would either start over Cunha or Cunha would start over him. Unless, that is, you see this new LW and Cunha both starting in that cup final, in which case I would like to know who you would have sit down to make room for both the new LW and Cunha. But if you insist that it's not a choice of one or the other, that because it's a long season both can get plenty of minutes, you still haven't answered my question what you're looking for -- an upgrade on Cunha to start over Cunha when the match is that important, or additional squad depth to serve behind Cunha (Dorgu is barely a blip on your radar) and take the pitch when Cunha needs rest.

And by all means, let's also pretend that we have no desire as a club in developing our outrageous young talent. In this case their names Shea Lacey and JJ Gabriel. Why not even give them a chance?

 

[Zumbi]

We're not going to bring in a hundred million from the sales of Hojlund, Rashford, Zirkzee and Ugarte. Under the most optimistic of scenarios we're bringing 75m for those four, but that is a wildly optimistic hope. Hojlund will go for 38m and Rashford for 26m at best. Let's round that up to 70m. We can't be sure we can even get rid of Zirkzee on a free transfer and if we do find such a club without any question the striker we bring in to cover for Sesko will cost us at least 30m and I'm likely being wildly optimistic in making that claim. There will be no buyers for Ugarte, but even if we do find a buyer for Ugarte for 5m we would need a third CM (that's not going to happen for 5m) and not just the two CMs that we need already, which will undoubtedly require at least 150m from the warchest.

This is just silly. £30 million for Ugarte and Zirkzee plus any other fringe players is not a stretch. There was interest in Zirkzee from Italian clubs only very recently - the only reason we didn’t sell him in January is because we were short of attacking depth. I’m not sure why you’re pivoting to incomings when calculating outgoings - my point previously was that you were only counting purchases and not sales in your calculations regarding budget and expenditure.

We can't ignore the greater needs -- central midfielders (2), fullbacks (2) and a backup striker (1). I suppose we can ignore the greater needs, but that would be foolish, and it's undeniable that they are the greater needs.

That’s not undeniable. The one thing everyone agrees on is that CM is our priority this summer. But what our priorities are after that is very much an active source of debate amongst fans and pundits. You seem to like trying to state your opinion on the matter as fact, but it’s not - it’s just another opinion. Indeed, it’s been consistently reported that the club’s assessment differs from yours, with left wing being a position we’re actively targeting.

If we can bring in 5 new players who would be regular starters for us it seems on the highly unlikely that we would have room in the budget for the LW that you're so desperate to bring in.

I’m not “desperate” for a LW. But I think a reasonable case can be made for targeting one once CM is sorted, just like a reasonable case for targeting FBs can be made.

This new LW would either be an upgrade to Cunha (let's pretend from now on Dorgu doesn't exist) or his cover. You can call it whatever you want, but if we found ourselves in a cup final this new LW would either start over Cunha or Cunha would start over him. Unless, that is, you see this new LW and Cunha both starting in that cup final, in which case I would like to know who you would have sit down to make room for both the new LW and Cunha. But if you insist that it's not a choice of one or the other, that because it's a long season both can get plenty of minutes, you still haven't answered my question what you're looking for -- an upgrade on Cunha to start over Cunha when the match is that important, or additional squad depth to serve behind Cunha

This is a false dichotomy which once again betrays your overly simplistic understanding of how elite squads operate in the modern game. We don’t need to bring any players in based on a pre-determined view of who will be starting in a hypothetical final. We should bring in players that strengthen our squad, and which particular players start in which particular games should depend entirely on form, fitness and tactical considerations on any given game day.

(Dorgu is barely a blip on your radar) and take the pitch when Cunha needs rest.

Can you please stop making such hyperbolic assumptions and trying to put words in my mouth? Dorgu has become an incredibly important member of our squad and we’re missing him from the squad right now. What I actually said was that I saw Dorgu as “more of a versatile squad option who can fill a variety of roles than a nailed on starter at LW”. That doesn’t mean I don’t value him - on the contrary, I think his versatility has and will continue to be a huge benefit to our squad.

And by all means, let's also pretend that we have no desire as a club in developing our outrageous young talent. In this case their names Shea Lacey and JJ Gabriel. Why not even give them a chance?

This is just a ridiculous straw man. I was very clear in stating that I hope both players will come into the first team and get minutes. I just don’t think our broader transfer policy should revolve around assumptions that a 15 year old will come into the squad next year and immediately play a key squad role. I think it’s more prudent for their long term development if there’s less pressure on them and they can develop in and around a squad which is better equipped to compete in the PL, CL and domestic cups than it is right now. Bear in mind the fact that Bruno will be 34 by the time Gabriel turns 18. If he lives up to potential there will be plenty of opportunities for him in the coming years.

 

[lex talionis]

This is just silly. £30 million for Ugarte and Zirkzee plus any other fringe players is not a stretch. There was interest in Zirkzee from Italian clubs only very recently - the only reason we didn’t sell him in January is because we were short of attacking depth. I’m not sure why you’re pivoting to incomings when calculating outgoings - my point previously was that you were only counting purchases and not sales in your calculations regarding budget and expenditure.


That’s not undeniable. The one thing everyone agrees on is that CM is our priority this summer. But what our priorities are after that is very much an active source of debate amongst fans and pundits. You seem to like trying to state your opinion on the matter as fact, but it’s not - it’s just another opinion. Indeed, it’s been consistently reported that the club’s assessment differs from yours, with left wing being a position we’re actively targeting.


I’m not “desperate” for a LW. But I think a reasonable case can be made for targeting one once CM is sorted, just like a reasonable case for targeting FBs can be made.

This is a false dichotomy which once again betrays your overly simplistic understanding of how elite squads operate in the modern game. We don’t need to bring any players in based on a pre-determined view of who will be starting in a hypothetical final. We should bring in players that strengthen our squad, and which particular players start in which particular games should depend entirely on form, fitness and tactical considerations on any given game day.

Can you please stop making such hyperbolic assumptions and trying to put words in my mouth? Dorgu has become an incredibly important member of our squad and we’re missing him from the squad right now. What I actually said was that I saw Dorgu as “more of a versatile squad option who can fill a variety of roles than a nailed on starter at LW”. That doesn’t mean I don’t value him - on the contrary, I think his versatility has and will continue to be a huge benefit to our squad.


This is just a ridiculous straw man. I was very clear in stating that I hope both players will come into the first team and get minutes. I just don’t think our broader transfer policy should revolve around assumptions that a 15 year old will come into the squad next year and immediately play a key squad role. I think it’s more prudent for their long term development if there’s less pressure on them and they can develop in and around a squad which is better equipped to compete in the PL, CL and domestic cups than it is right now. Bear in mind the fact that Bruno will be 34 by the time Gabriel turns 18. If he lives up to potential there will be plenty of opportunities for him in the coming years.

You're arguing gibberish.

If your argument is that we need to be three-deep at every position, I would classify that alleged need to be pure fantasy. I'll take two-deep at every position first before going for three-deep. And given the financial condition of the club -- not to mention PSR -- we're in no position to be thinking about being three-deep at every position.

But if your argument is that we need to be three-deep only at the LW position I can respect that argument, but my counter -- which is unrefuted -- is that we need to be sure we're two-deep at every position first before we can start thinking about being three-deep.

The only position(s) we can confidently state that we're sufficiently deep in is CB -- De Ligt, Martinez, Maguire, Yoro and Heaven. There are doubts about some of those names (injuries, contracts, etc.) but all we know is what we know now, which is that really don't need to think about deepening our roster of CBs unless 1 or 2 of those names are no longer with United next season.

I suppose we could also argue that we're deep enough at keeper, but doubts about Bayandir are not unreasonable. And surely this has to be it for Heaton although maybe we can keep him for one more season as our third choice keeper. Let's just assume that we have no summer transfer business on the keeper front.

Everywhere else throughout the squad we're just way too thin. We need two fullbacks, either to upgrade on Shaw and Dalot or to be their cover. We've talked about central midfield -- at least two and probably three, depending on what becomes of Ugarte. I assume Bruno will remain and if he does we don't have a great option behind him other than Mount (but Mount is a significant downgrade from Bruno, but I don't see anyone taking Mount off our books next season). Before we get to the wingers, who have been very good for us this season, let's talk about the need for cover at striker. Zirkzee has something about him, but he's just not a goal scorer and the very point you have made about a long season applies to the striker position, which I don't think anywhere here would argue we're amply covered at. That's a genuine priority, slightly less so than central midfielders and fullbacks but still a priority.

And then we have the wingers. At this point it comes down to opinions and you clearly believe that Cunha and Dorgu just aren't good enough -- thus, the argument to buy another LW -- and that we shouldn't given any serious thought to Lacey or Gabriel -- making it four options at LW. So be it. Your opinion is just as valid as my opinion that Cunha and Dorgu have established themselves as great options at LW. As for Lacey and Gabriel, I have no idea what the future holds for them and your speculation about their future roles at Old Trafford is just as valid as mine.

 

[NoPace]

Garnacho had to leave. He was toxic, his workrate wasn't great, he played for himself rather then for the team and he wasn't that good to start with. I've never seen so much ego in such a young player with so little talent. I shiver at the thought of him having Nani's talent let alone Cristiano's

I don't disagree with this, but if Nani had Garnacho's selfish hunger and directness, he'd probably have had more than the 1 season in the low 20s in Ballon D'or votes.

But yeah, Garnacho just doesn't have the agility or sporadic quality from distance (crossing and shooting) that made Nani quite good.

 

[devilish]

I don't disagree with this, but if Nani had Garnacho's selfish hunger and directness, he'd probably have had more than the 1 season in the low 20s in Ballon D'or votes.

But yeah, Garnacho just doesn't have the agility or sporadic quality from distance (crossing and shooting) that made Nani quite good.

Nani was selfish though not as much as a Garnacho though. He was 3 times the player though

 

[ItDoesntEvenMata]

Which of the wingers Amorim got rid of are you missing from our squad?

Garnacho

 

[Trigestis]

Garnacho

You miss Garnacho? Rock bottom standards.

 

[Anustart89]

Garnacho

I’d rather have a blow-up sex doll down that left hand side than Garnacho. At least that’d improve squad morale.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Jens Petter Hauge please