Targeting wingers

Trigestis said:
You miss Garnacho? Rock bottom standards.
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I don’t currently but I’d never have sold him. He’s the sort of player who could have been ironed out with strong characters around him and a more stable club and he’s going to have a very good career.

It was a travesty he didn’t start the Europa Final.

His ceiling has been wildly underplayed for some reason because he took a few too many shots when we never scored or created as a team and he was young and exciting
 
ItDoesntEvenMata said:
I don’t currently but I’d never have sold him. He’s the sort of player who could have been ironed out with strong characters around him and a more stable club and he’s going to have a very good career.

It was a travesty he didn’t start the Europa Final.

His ceiling has been wildly underplayed for some reason because he took a few too many shots when we never scored or created as a team and he was young and exciting
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Even when he was playing well there were quite a few people who said that they couldn't see him getting 'that' much better than he was already playing at that point. He has a lot of weaknesses beyond just decision making, and honestly the only two things he has that I'd consider strengths are his off-the-ball movement in attack and his mentality to just keep trying. That means that he should continue getting on the end of a good amount of goalscoring chances, so if he improves his scoring he may score a decent amount of goals. But it's at the expense of a lot of other things.

His actual skill and technical level aren't particularly good, he's a poor dribbler, he's physically weak and (despite stats somehow showing he had fast top speeds) we saw him constantly struggle to outpace defenders who aren't even notable speedsters themselves.

There's a very strong chance that he's never going to be good enough as a starter for a top team. An impact player off the bench maybe, but that's about it. Especially in England where the athleticism of the defenders was simply too much for him. If he goes to Spain or more likely Italy then maybe it'll change.
 
lex talionis said:
You're arguing gibberish.

If your argument is that we need to be three-deep at every position, I would classify that alleged need to be pure fantasy. I'll take two-deep at every position first before going for three-deep. And given the financial condition of the club -- not to mention PSR -- we're in no position to be thinking about being three-deep at every position.

But if your argument is that we need to be three-deep only at the LW position I can respect that argument, but my counter -- which is unrefuted -- is that we need to be sure we're two-deep at every position first before we can start thinking about being three-deep.
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My argument is neither. Your premise rests on a flawed assumption which pigeon holes Dorgu and Cunha as only left wingers. But they’re not. They’ve both been used out there because we don’t have a proper left winger, but they’ve also been used elsewhere. Indeed, Cunha is most at home roaming away from the left wing into more central areas. He pops up all over the pitch, which means when he plays there we’re often left without any proper width on that flank. They are both players who are somewhat versatile and can feature in various roles.
lex talionis said:
The only position(s) we can confidently state that we're sufficiently deep in is CB -- De Ligt, Martinez, Maguire, Yoro and Heaven. There are doubts about some of those names (injuries, contracts, etc.) but all we know is what we know now, which is that really don't need to think about deepening our roster of CBs unless 1 or 2 of those names are no longer with United next season.

I suppose we could also argue that we're deep enough at keeper, but doubts about Bayandir are not unreasonable. And surely this has to be it for Heaton although maybe we can keep him for one more season as our third choice keeper. Let's just assume that we have no summer transfer business on the keeper front.

Everywhere else throughout the squad we're just way too thin. We need two fullbacks, either to upgrade on Shaw and Dalot or to be their cover. We've talked about central midfield -- at least two and probably three, depending on what becomes of Ugarte. I assume Bruno will remain and if he does we don't have a great option behind him other than Mount (but Mount is a significant downgrade from Bruno, but I don't see anyone taking Mount off our books next season). Before we get to the wingers, who have been very good for us this season, let's talk about the need for cover at striker. Zirkzee has something about him, but he's just not a goal scorer and the very point you have made about a long season applies to the striker position, which I don't think anywhere here would argue we're amply covered at. That's a genuine priority, slightly less so than central midfielders and fullbacks but still a priority.

And then we have the wingers. At this point it comes down to opinions and you clearly believe that Cunha and Dorgu just aren't good enough -- thus, the argument to buy another LW -- and that we shouldn't given any serious thought to Lacey or Gabriel -- making it four options at LW.
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Again, straw men. Why do your arguments always seem to rest on misrepresenting other people’s arguments with hyperbolic nonsense? I think Dorgu and Cunha are both good enough to play for us. In one of my recent replies to you I described Dorgu as “incredibly important” so why are you trying now claim I don’t think he’s good enough? It’s dishonest. If you were able to argue the points on their merits you wouldn’t need to engage in such cheap tactics.

I made a different point - that I don’t think either of them are nailed on as automatic starters in that one particular position in every game we play in a busy PL/CL season. The best squads have options, and a common complaint in recent games is that we’ve lacked genuine width and threat on the left flank, which is likely why the club is reportedly targeting a let winger. And I have no idea why you're listing Lacey as a left winger - his best position is on the RW coming on to his favoured left foot, and that's where he's featured so far for the first team. Again - another example of you trying to twist things to fit a particular narrative.

Currently we ostensibly have eight senior attacking players for four attacking positions: Mbeumo, Amad, Bruno, Cunha, Dorgu, Zirkzee, Sesko, Mount (when he’s fit). And within that there’s a fair amount of flexibility and interchanging, with some of those players featuring in various positions.

That hasn’t been enough for our lightest game schedule ever, so it’s certainly not going to cut it when we’re playing 2/3 tough games a week. Assuming we sell Zirkzee (which we should), there’s plenty of minutes to go around for everyone, including a new LW and/or CF if we bring them in, and including youth players who might come through.

There’s a reasonable argument to be made over whether a back up striker or a LW should be the bigger priority. That will likely depend on who our manager is and what system we play. I could be disingenuous and say that we don't need one because we already have four options for striker - Sesko, Mbeumo, Cunha, and Chido - but I’ll leave such narrative driven accounting tricks to you.

I’ve repeatedly said that I hope Lacey and Gabriel get first team minutes. How is that not giving serious thought to them? But JJ is still only 15 FFS, and players that age go through all sorts of ups and downs, especially when trying to break into the senior game. Shaping transfer policy around what a child might do in the coming years when you might be in the CL next season is incredibly naive. If he makes the step up in the next year or two he’ll get opportunities.

lex talionis said:
So be it. Your opinion is just as valid as my opinion that Cunha and Dorgu have established themselves as great options at LW. As for Lacey and Gabriel, I have no idea what the future holds for them and your speculation about their future roles at Old Trafford is just as valid as mine.
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Given that you haven’t even managed to get JJ’s age, or Lacey’s position right, any speculation from you regarding their prospects seems to be built on sand.
 
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lex talionis said:
You're arguing gibberish.

If your argument is that we need to be three-deep at every position, I would classify that alleged need to be pure fantasy. I'll take two-deep at every position first before going for three-deep. And given the financial condition of the club -- not to mention PSR -- we're in no position to be thinking about being three-deep at every position.

But if your argument is that we need to be three-deep only at the LW position I can respect that argument, but my counter -- which is unrefuted -- is that we need to be sure we're two-deep at every position first before we can start thinking about being three-deep.

The only position(s) we can confidently state that we're sufficiently deep in is CB -- De Ligt, Martinez, Maguire, Yoro and Heaven. There are doubts about some of those names (injuries, contracts, etc.) but all we know is what we know now, which is that really don't need to think about deepening our roster of CBs unless 1 or 2 of those names are no longer with United next season.

I suppose we could also argue that we're deep enough at keeper, but doubts about Bayandir are not unreasonable. And surely this has to be it for Heaton although maybe we can keep him for one more season as our third choice keeper. Let's just assume that we have no summer transfer business on the keeper front.

Everywhere else throughout the squad we're just way too thin. We need two fullbacks, either to upgrade on Shaw and Dalot or to be their cover. We've talked about central midfield -- at least two and probably three, depending on what becomes of Ugarte. I assume Bruno will remain and if he does we don't have a great option behind him other than Mount (but Mount is a significant downgrade from Bruno, but I don't see anyone taking Mount off our books next season). Before we get to the wingers, who have been very good for us this season, let's talk about the need for cover at striker. Zirkzee has something about him, but he's just not a goal scorer and the very point you have made about a long season applies to the striker position, which I don't think anywhere here would argue we're amply covered at. That's a genuine priority, slightly less so than central midfielders and fullbacks but still a priority.

And then we have the wingers. At this point it comes down to opinions and you clearly believe that Cunha and Dorgu just aren't good enough -- thus, the argument to buy another LW -- and that we shouldn't given any serious thought to Lacey or Gabriel -- making it four options at LW. So be it. Your opinion is just as valid as my opinion that Cunha and Dorgu have established themselves as great options at LW. As for Lacey and Gabriel, I have no idea what the future holds for them and your speculation about their future roles at Old Trafford is just as valid as mine.
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I don't find your points very convincing.

1. Cunha is mediocre as a LW. He should play in the center of the pitch, or you really nullify is best traits. And Dorgu to me is a LB. I don't see him as anything more than depth as a LW; doesn't have the technical skills so far (and yes I saw the 2 good games he had there). So it's more like zero good options at LW. And when you're counting on a 15 year old for next season, you've lost the plot IMO. If Gabriel becomes a squad player or better, it's likely 3+ seasons from now.
2. While I'm not fully confident in it, I could see Dorgu as a positive LB starter as soon as next season. And Shaw has lost at least a step, but he's not awful as a backup. Then you have both Dalot/Maz as potential depth options, and THEN Amass and Leon. While the latter are unlikely to do much next season, they're more likely than someone like Gabriel.
3. Other than a truly elite LB, I don't really see much sense in adding depth to that position. And frankly, LW is a more important position on the field than LB.

We've been lucky with health for the most part this year in attack, but it seems we're far closer to disaster scenarios at LW than LB. And an elite LW would do considerably more to help the team than an elite LB.
 
ItDoesntEvenMata said:
I don’t currently but I’d never have sold him. He’s the sort of player who could have been ironed out with strong characters around him and a more stable club and he’s going to have a very good career.

It was a travesty he didn’t start the Europa Final.

His ceiling has been wildly underplayed for some reason because he took a few too many shots when we never scored or created as a team and he was young and exciting
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He had to go, it's as easy as that. Exactly the player we should not have in the dressing room. And if he had performed in the games before the final, maybe he would have started. But he was shit as most of the time, so he didn't.

His ceiling is low. The only thing he has got going for him are directness and off the ball movement. Finishing, passing, intelligence, crossing, dribbling - all mediocre. He runs with his head down and can barely take players on. If anything, his ceiling is overplayed simply because he came through the academy, and especially at a time where we needed a "fresh" attacker. He offered something new, but it was never good enough.
 
When people talk about signing a left winger, how do we then regularly fit in Cunha, Bruno and Mbeumo? Playing one as a striker?
 
bb8 said:
I

I don't find your points very convincing.

1. Cunha is mediocre as a LW. He should play in the center of the pitch, or you really nullify is best traits. And Dorgu to me is a LB. I don't see him as anything more than depth as a LW; doesn't have the technical skills so far (and yes I saw the 2 good games he had there). So it's more like zero good options at LW. And when you're counting on a 15 year old for next season, you've lost the plot IMO. If Gabriel becomes a squad player or better, it's likely 3+ seasons from now.
2. While I'm not fully confident in it, I could see Dorgu as a positive LB starter as soon as next season. And Shaw has lost at least a step, but he's not awful as a backup. Then you have both Dalot/Maz as potential depth options, and THEN Amass and Leon. While the latter are unlikely to do much next season, they're more likely than someone like Gabriel.
3. Other than a truly elite LB, I don't really see much sense in adding depth to that position. And frankly, LW is a more important position on the field than LB.

We've been lucky with health for the most part this year in attack, but it seems we're far closer to disaster scenarios at LW than LB. And an elite LW would do considerably more to help the team than an elite LB.
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The issue on our left side is that Dorgu is the only player we have for that flank who offers true width and penetrative running.

Cunha at left wing ahead of Shaw is a lacklustre proposition as there's no-one to run the line. Deploy Dorgu behind him in place of Shaw, though, and Cunha operating from a wide position becomes much more attractive.

Similarly with Shaw, replacing Cunha with Dorgu ahead of him allows him to play to his strengths and us as a team to play with balance.

I think we need another runner. When Dorgu is out, the dynamic on the left wing isn't right. Whether it's a fullback or winger is probably less important.
 
Sandikan said:
When people talk about signing a left winger, how do we then regularly fit in Cunha, Bruno and Mbeumo? Playing one as a striker?
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I think the idea is to put some of the attacking options on the bench.
 
Find someone who is technically excellent, can continuously beat his man and stays on the touchline to provide us width. Also, isn't as selfish as Garnacho or Cunha. I've had enough of our "wingers" always drifting into the middle.
 
Anustart89 said:
I think the idea is to put some of the attacking options on the bench.
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We'll certainly have to increase quality and numbers for Europe next year.
We've essentially got a decent first 11 with perhaps 3 or 4 who can slot in to keep the same quality. Beyond that it's a considerable drop off.
 
Sandikan said:
When people talk about signing a left winger, how do we then regularly fit in Cunha, Bruno and Mbeumo? Playing one as a striker?
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If we qualify for CL we’re going to have a way busier schedule. When you have 2/3 tough games a week for stretches of the season the only way to compete on multiple fronts is to have a deep squad with lots of starting quality options you can rotate.

Pick a random City game and look at their starting line up versus their bench. EG in their most recent game they had Cherki, Marmoush, Reijnders and Foden on the bench. Other games they’ll have Semenyo, Doku, Savio, Silva etc on the bench. Arsenal are the same.

We’re having our lightest game schedule ever this season and we’re still short of quality options, with Zirkzee being brought in to make an impact. That’s not good enough to compete with the likes of Arsenal and City on multiple fronts.
 
sherrinford said:
The issue on our left side is that Dorgu is the only player we have for that flank who offers true width and penetrative running.

Cunha at left wing ahead of Shaw is a lacklustre proposition as there's no-one to run the line. Deploy Dorgu behind him in place of Shaw, though, and Cunha operating from a wide position becomes much more attractive.

Similarly with Shaw, replacing Cunha with Dorgu ahead of him allows him to play to his strengths and us as a team to play with balance.

I think we need another runner. When Dorgu is out, the dynamic on the left wing isn't right. Whether it's a fullback or winger is probably less important.
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This seems reasonable. I think the list of LB candidates who can provide high quality attacking width from the left is fairly short though; might be easier to find a true LW and put Dorgu at LB. Especially if (like me) you think Dorgu is likely to lack the passing/finishing to start full-time at LW, at least for the next couple years.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Maama
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Maamma doesn't look quick enough to me at the moment to be really top level. He definitely seems the type to go to some kind of stepping stone club eg Brighton or someone in the Bundesliga where he can work on his pace and fitness a bit more before he even has any hope of playing for a club like United.
 
goldenboy said:
Maamma doesn't look quick enough to me at the moment to be really top level. He definitely seems the type to go to some kind of stepping stone club eg Brighton or someone in the Bundesliga where he can work on his pace and fitness a bit more before he even has any hope of playing for a club like United.
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Interesting. One would think the championship would be the place to physically test him
 
OverratedOpinion said:
Having another player who could constantly beat his man would be great for us.

Google tells me the lad we were linked with in January has good stats for this.

https://www.statmuse.com/fc/ask/most-dribbles-completed-by-a-winger-this-season?l=eu5

So maybe Diomande. Thought he was very average in Afcon and an absolute mile behind Amad but that was 3 matches.
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He is also 4 years younger so that plays a part. His potential is crazy, but don't think he is worth 100m, it's just too risky for someone that age.
 
Mika Godts from Ajax apparently on our radar. He should play a bit like Eden Hazard.
Some nice stats he can show. Vivel apparently a fan.
 
Watched a YouTube highlights video for Bazoumana Toure 20 year old Ivorian winger playing for Hoffenheim

Very pacey, can dribble and good end product too

Wonder if he's on anyone's radar
 
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