Teacher beheaded near Paris after showing cartoons of Prophet Muhammad

[Don't Kill Bill]

I'm late to this discussion, but I thought I would add that it has not always been bad. It's been up an down a lot, but historically, for example, Muslims have been accepting towards Christians and Jews because they are also 'people of the book', as the Qu'ran calls it (in recognition of the close religious relationship).

This is apart from geopolitical strife and other social circumstances, of course. For example, it would be wrong to portray the Crusades as a deeply religious war and use it as an example of this historical strive between Christians and Muslims. (But I suppose this sort of thing may have been covered before in this thread.)

I don't agree with this post at all.

Firstly when you say that Muslims for example were accepting of other faiths of the book historically you are wrong. Those other believers were always treated as second class and were not allowed to proselytize. That's not really acceptance but the bare minimum tolerance level.

Secondly all religions are instruments of control. What is controlled is determined by religious authority. Once you are accepting of that control from that source and the same source instructs political and military actions then they are causal. For the obedience of the actors, the lack of ability and inherent right to question the actions and the determination with which it is carried out.

 

[Cheimoon]

Firstly when you say that Muslims for example were accepting of other faiths of the book historically you are wrong. Those other believers were always treated as second class and were not allowed to proselytize. That's not really acceptance but the bare minimum tolerance level.

I am talking about, for example, the Middle Ages here; you can't impose modern notions of tolerance and equality and judge them for it in this context. Well, obviously, you can do that in an absolute sense (compared to modern ideas) and say that the Middle Ages were a barbaric time overall. But you can't if you are trying to assess the relative contemporary mindset of a group of people. To my knowledge, by the standards of the time and in comparison of considerations for and by others, Muslims were very accepting of Christians and Jews.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I am talking about, for example, the Middle Ages here; you can't impose modern notions of tolerance and equality and judge them for it in this context. Well, obviously, you can do that in an absolute sense (compared to modern ideas) and say that the Middle Ages were a barbaric time overall. But you can't if you are trying to assess the relative contemporary mindset of a group of people. To my knowledge, by the standards of the time and in comparison of considerations for and by others, Muslims were very accepting of Christians and Jews.

I agree with the first point on not judging the morals of the past from the present out of context but you have to also remember that we are learning about the past from the winners. Here are some other thoughts on the existing religions at the time.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)...
from Qur'an 9:5

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book...
from Qur'an 9:29

 

[Cheimoon]

I agree with the first point on not judging the morals of the past from the present out of context but you have to also remember that we are learning about the past from the winners. Here are some other thoughts on the existing religions at the time.

You can quote lots of positions from Qu'ran though, just like you can use the Hebrew Bible to portray Judaism and Christianity as extremely intolerant and violent.

 

[Gehrman]

I am talking about, for example, the Middle Ages here; you can't impose modern notions of tolerance and equality and judge them for it in this context. Well, obviously, you can do that in an absolute sense (compared to modern ideas) and say that the Middle Ages were a barbaric time overall. But you can't if you are trying to assess the relative contemporary mindset of a group of people. To my knowledge, by the standards of the time and in comparison of considerations for and by others, Muslims were very accepting of Christians and Jews.

The message that Islam is tolerant would actually hold weight if you were legally allowed to protelyse other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduim and Judaism in muslim majority countries and if there wasn't a death penalty or a penalty at all for leaving Islam. One of Muhammeds last requests the day before he died when he knew he was dying was to expell all Christians, Jews and Polytheists from Arabia. It's followed up with some proud muslims soldiers on horseback cleaving some unarmed naked black female polytheists in half who were protecting their idols.

 

[Foxbatt]

The message that Islam is tolerant would actually hold weight if you were legally allowed to protelyse other religions such as Buddhism, Hinduim and Judaism in muslim majority countries and if there wasn't a death penalty or a penalty at all for leaving Islam. One of Muhammeds last requests the day before he died when he knew he was dying was to expell all Christians, Jews and Polytheists from Arabia. It's followed up with some proud muslims soldiers on horseback cleaving some unarmed naked black female polytheists in half who were protecting their idols.

This is wrong. There is a major difference in treating the people of the book and idolators. This intolerance came much much later. Even in our time, in places like Iraq and Syria etc, lot of politicians were there who are not Muslims. The issue of Israel and Palestinians of course made the issues much worse. The US support for Zia al Haq in Pakistan and their support for the Saudis made it also much worse. Now it is going from bad to worse.

 

[Gehrman]

This is wrong. There is a major difference in treating the people of the book and idolators. This intolerance came much much later. Even in our time, in places like Iraq and Syria etc, lot of politicians were there who are not Muslims. The issue of Israel and Palestinians of course made the issues much worse. The US support for Zia al Haq in Pakistan and their support for the Saudis made it also much worse. Now it is going from bad to worse.

The stuff about Muhammeds lasts requests is something I took directly out of his biography "The Sealed Nectar". I know that in general the islamic policy is to grant jews and christians dhimmi status and pay the tax. It still means a great deal to me what "tolerance" Islam or any other major religion extends to Buddhists, Polytheists, Atheists or even shamanistic religions or whatever. I know we don't live in the middle ages anymore so I hope we can keep the civilised bit of modern civilization intact from all sides. I'm well aware that muslims suffer opression and persecution as well.

 

[Gehrman]

I'm grateful I don't live in Pakistan.

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[Hammerfell]

I'm grateful I don't live in Pakistan.

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Yikes. There aren't many places I'd like to live less than there.

 

[Abizzz]

I'm grateful I don't live in Pakistan.

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Yeah that's the sort of stuff that makes one think all dialog is pointless.

 

[Moby]

I'm grateful I don't live in Pakistan.

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Pathetic.

 

[pratyush_utd]

This is wrong. There is a major difference in treating the people of the book and idolators. This intolerance came much much later. Even in our time, in places like Iraq and Syria etc, lot of politicians were there who are not Muslims. The issue of Israel and Palestinians of course made the issues much worse. The US support for Zia al Haq in Pakistan and their support for the Saudis made it also much worse. Now it is going from bad to worse.

What do you mean by that?

 

[Interval]

I'm grateful I don't live in Pakistan.

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So progressive. Cnut

 

[Gehrman]

Macron calls for stricter border control in face of the recent terror attacks.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Macron calls for stricter border control in face of the recent terror attacks.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...tent&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter

How in practice will that work in Ireland?

 

[Gehrman]

How in practice will that work in Ireland?

I have no idea.

 

[fergieisold]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-54877202

is it the wests fault again?

 

[Gehrman]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-54877202

is it the wests fault again?

Since Mozambique was once a portugese colony I'm sure someone will be able to connect the dots somehow.

 

[Gehrman]

French imam gets thousands of death threats for condemning beheading.

 

[2cents]

France's Macron issues 'republican values' ultimatum to Muslim leaders

French President Emmanuel Macron has asked Muslim leaders to agree a "charter of republican values" as part of a broad clampdown on radical Islam.

On Wednesday he gave the French Council of the Muslim Faith (CFCM) 15 days to work with the interior ministry.

The CFCM has agreed to create a National Council of Imams, which will reportedly issue imams with official accreditation which could be withdrawn.

It follows three suspected Islamist attacks in little more than a month.

The charter will state that Islam is a religion and not a political movement, while also prohibiting "foreign interference" in Muslim groups.



https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55001167

 

[utdalltheway]

I read a little about this but tbh I've no idea what this means in reality for muslims in France.
Anyone?

 

[Sweet Square]

This is the correct translation ?

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[africanspur]

This is the correct translation ?

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They're pretty hypocritical when it comes to freedom of expression seemingly.

 

[fergieisold]

They're pretty hypocritical when it comes to freedom of expression seemingly.

They're attempting to defend western values. People should be supporting France more than they are right now. If someone from another country settles in France and then starts stirring up islamism then why shouldn't the be deported?

 

[Sweet Square]

They're pretty hypocritical when it comes to freedom of expression seemingly.

Yeah this why I thought it might be a miss translation because it seems to be a very hypocritical stance. Part of free speech is oddly enough having the right to advocate against it.

Also that the end result would be deportations is very worrying.

 

[africanspur]

They're attempting to defend western values. People should be supporting France more than they are right now. If someone from another country settles in France and then starts stirring up islamism then why shouldn't the be deported?

I've already made my opinions clear on what I think about the pervasive attitude within many Muslim communities to these kinds of cartoons and the damage that has.

But they're not attempting to defend Western values, they're attempting to defend very narrowly French values. The fierceness with which they protect the right to publish these cartoons for instance is based on their view that freedom of speech is paramount in their society, yet this doesn't extend to the freedom of speech to criticise the publication of the cartoons apparently. IF the translation is correct.

He doesn't seem to be talking about violence or even in fact ant kind of protest or whatever, literally a parent talking to a parent about what they want their kid to learn and not learn. Which....happens in pretty much every school in every part of the world.

Islamism has nothing to do with saying you don't want your kid to see that cartoon. As much as I personally would disagree with that parent. That term has become so freely and loosely used now.

Do you think an Algerian who goes to their school and says I'd prefer you didn't teach that cartoon in class and is then refused...who does nothing afterwards, should be deported?

 

[africanspur]

Yeah this why I thought it might be a miss translation because it seems to be a very hypocritical stance. Part of free speech is oddly enough having the right to advocate against it.

Also that the end result would be deportations is very worrying.

Yeah the deportation thing is a bit crazy if the translation is correct and especially if he's talking narrowly about just articulating your own misapprehensions about your kid's education on a certain topic.

 

[Gehrman]

This is the correct translation ?

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Any french speakers here who knows if this is the correct translation?

 

[fergieisold]

I've already made my opinions clear on what I think about the pervasive attitude within many Muslim communities to these kinds of cartoons and the damage that has.

But they're not attempting to defend Western values, they're attempting to defend very narrowly French values. The fierceness with which they protect the right to publish these cartoons for instance is based on their view that freedom of speech is paramount in their society, yet this doesn't extend to the freedom of speech to criticise the publication of the cartoons apparently. IF the translation is correct.

He doesn't seem to be talking about violence or even in fact ant kind of protest or whatever, literally a parent talking to a parent about what they want their kid to learn and not learn. Which....happens in pretty much every school in every part of the world.

Islamism has nothing to do with saying you don't want your kid to see that cartoon. As much as I personally would disagree with that parent. That term has become so freely and loosely used now.

Do you think an Algerian who goes to their school and says I'd prefer you didn't teach that cartoon in class and is then refused...who does nothing afterwards, should be deported?

I suspect it's got to be a mis quote. Surely just complaining isn't going to be illegal?

 

[Gehrman]

I suspect it's got to be a mis quote. Surely just complaining isn't going to be illegal?

As far as I got so far on google it seems that attempts to stop teachers from showing cartoons can be an criminal offense, but all the media I found it on was turkish, so I'd rather still wait for a native french redcaffer to affirm whether the translation is correct.

 

[Sweet Square]

Yeah the deportation thing is a bit crazy if the translation is correct and especially if he's talking narrowly about just articulating your own misapprehensions about your kid's education on a certain topic.

Here's the possible alternative

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Although I'm not sure how this is really any better.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[Moby]

Any french speakers here who knows if this is the correct translation?

He says 'vous pouvez quitter le territoire' which translates to 'you can can be asked to leave' so it seems pretty grey. Nothing hard and fast.

 

[utdalltheway]

I've lived in a few countries now and figure I know enough not to try to change the host country to suit me. When in Rome and all that.
It's been a lot easier tbf as my choice of countries have been western countries, as was my upbringing.

But, I've not come across anything like this French situation so I'm struggling to better understand it.

 

[harms]

So... the perpetrator was just buried with honors in Chechnya and Chechnya’s main TV-channel put up a story about it. They called him a god-fearing young man who wasn’t particularly aggressive and nothing would’ve happened if not for a horrendous Islamophobic provocation.

He had studied religion and was a fiery character, so he had simply failed to keep his feelings under control.

Nice.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

So... the perpetrator was just buried with honors in Chechnya and Chechnya’s main TV-channel put up a story about it. They called him a god-fearing young man who wasn’t particularly aggressive and nothing would’ve happened if not for a horrendous Islamophobic provocation.

He had studied religion and was a fiery character, so he had simply failed to keep his feelings under control.

Nice.

Hasn't that same level of plausible deniability been used to defend killers throughout the ages

 

[Gehrman]

So... the perpetrator was just buried with honors in Chechnya and Chechnya’s main TV-channel put up a story about it. They called him a god-fearing young man who wasn’t particularly aggressive and nothing would’ve happened if not for a horrendous Islamophobic provocation.

He had studied religion and was a fiery character, so he had simply failed to keep his feelings under control.

Nice.

It reminds me a bit of when there was a terrorattack in here in Denmark in 2015. Some people laid flowers at the terrorists death spot and 700 people attended his funeral. I remember reading an article with one his mates saying he was in heaven now. Really pissed me off no end.

 

[harms]

According to an newsarticle from OPindia(don't know how reliable they are) he has had a street named after him.

I've seen the rumours, but nothing confirmed yet. I wouldn't be too surprised.

Putin's press-secretary had commented (as usual) that every government channel has freedom to present information in a way that they see fit (right ). This is happening in the same country (well, technically...) where a bunch of kids are now arrested on the suspicion of terrorist activity for building a replica of a FSB building in Minecraft.

 

[dumbo]

Dum-de-dum. Google.com > OPindia > open first link > PrtScn > Photoshop > Ctrl v > File > Save As > idiotfeckspostingbigotedshitagain.jpeg > upload image > post reply:

https://postimg.cc/7C7mG9pN

30 seconds.

 

[Gehrman]

Dum-de-dum. Google.com>OPindia>open first link>PrtScn>Photoshop>Ctrl v > File > Save As > idiotfeckspostingbigotedshitagain.jpeg > upload image > post reply:

30 seconds.

In that case I will delete it.